Advocacy & Safety - Dead Right

This guy is not dead, but he states if he is killed he will be dead right.

I must say I respect his convictions. At least this is one cyclist trying to do something about it. I disagree with what the motorists and some of the police say about him riding in the travel lane of traffic. At least he consulted a lawyer about the matter instead of confronting police and prosecutors directly.
Check out the video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJmxCuPiM0c&eurl=http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/hotnews/newsdisplay.asp?NewsID=3690&feature=player_embedded

I love this guy !! I know a producer here for Fox 2 Detroit Iam going to send him this and let him know . He is a commuter and I know is working on some stuf now Thanks for posting this ! Iam sure from what we saw this guy got camera help from Fox .

Excellent video.

I'm thinking of doing something similar but with a 3 foot, very thin, flexible rod that sticks out into traffic from the rear rack - the traffic (backward) facing side a mix of neutral colors, the camera facing side high visibility with heavy black lines at the 0, 1, 2 and 3 foot marks (3 feet starts at my elbow, not the bike).

Choosing an appropriate material for the rod is the challenge - it needs to yield without breaking into dangerous projectiles when hit by vehicles that might be doing over 55 mph, but it also needs to be rigid enough not to bend (too much) when riding.

Ideally I would also like something that determines the speed of the passing vehicle, even if it is just me shouting the speed for an audio record.

In Oregon we can use a citizen initiated “violation proceeding” leading to citation (http://bikeportland.org/2006/01/04/new-campaign-to-bring-motorists-to-justice/).

Kudos to Mr. Frings.:thumb:

The title of the story seems to overplay the danger involved, but sensationalism is to be expected from the mass media.

WI traffic law seems to be the same as FL in regards to cyclist's rights to the roadway as motorists, defining what constitutes the roadway and the 3' passing law.

I think he rides closer to the white line than I do. I like to be clearly to the right of the road edge if a BL or paved shoulder of sufficient width is present, or obviously to the left of the white line. To ride too far to the right in the lane invites close passing. Of course riding in a BL or on a paved shoulder invites closer and higher speed passing than does riding out in the lane, but there the cyclist is plainly not in the lane. I have found that the more room I keep on my right, the more I tend to be given on my left when being passed.

Riding further to the left would help mitigate, but not eliminate, some of the close passes he is experiencing.

I believe Frings is a member of this forum under the username 'bikesafer'

This guy is not dead, but he states if he is killed he will be dead right.

I must say I respect his convictions. At least this is one cyclist trying to do something about it. I disagree with what the motorists and some of the police say about him riding in the travel lane of traffic. At least he consulted a lawyer about the matter instead of confronting police and prosecutors directly.
Check out the video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJmxCuPiM0c&eurl=http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/hotnews/newsdisplay.asp?NewsID=3690&feature=player_embedded

Thanks for checking out the video, but as the cyclist in the story, I feel I have to correct you on something,

I never stated that if I am killed I will be dead right, the people who produced the story said that. I said I use the cameras so no matter what happens I will have proof that I was in the right.

Pipes,
I don't believe the producer or reporter got any "help from Fox" in doing this story, and I know I didn't get any help from anyone with my cameras. I've been riding with cameras for over a year now and I've been a professional photographer for more than 20 years. If I had any help from a major network I'm sure the video quality would have been better than it was. I can only afford the cheaper cameras not the HD lipstick cameras a network would have.

HoustonB,
I have tossed around that same idea but never figured out how to do it in a way that didn't put me at risk of either getting knocked off my bike each time the rod got hit or snapping back and hitting me. If you figure out how to make it work, let me and all of us know. I'd love to hear the response of the cop when I showed them the video with a yardstick smacking into the car as he went by.

Bikesafer (http://bikesafer.blogspot.com/)
Jeff

The laws governing road cycling should be taught and tested in every driver's license course in the country. Education CAN solve some of this problem... too bad you just can't fix stupid and bigoted.

HoustonB,
I have tossed around that same idea but never figured out how to do it in a way that didn't put me at risk of either getting knocked off my bike each time the rod got hit or snapping back and hitting me. If you figure out how to make it work, let me and all of us know. I'd love to hear the response of the cop when I showed them the video with a yardstick smacking into the car as he went by.

Bikesafer (http://bikesafer.blogspot.com/)
Jeff

Your efforts are noble and very much appreciated ! :thumb:
Thank you !

I was thinking of a short piece of PVC tubing hose clamped to the rack of
my folder that stuck out about 2.5 ft and when flexed forward by a passing
car,bigfoot truck etc, would hit the button to an AirZounds horn aimed outward :)

On the plus side, this Fox report took the whole issue of "sharing the road" right out to the public. I firmly believe that the biggest issue is that the driving public does not understand the laws. I find it even more interesting that Law Enforcement also does not know the laws.

Law enforcement often doesn't know laws. I've read state law over the phone and had an officer tell me I'm wrong. It's odd.

In the 1970s I rode with a folding traffic spacer. I think it worked. Never had it tapped. It was a 2 footer with a flag. Some kind of springy folding system and a fiberglass rod. Perhaps a bang stick with 12 g buck would work. Then the offending vehicle would be easy to spot.

Definitely thought about doing this. If nothing else so my heirs can know I didn't swerve in front of the person that hit me.

I need to stay away from these threads for my own mental health.
Every time I see this stuff I can only wonder, "How the F did it get
to this ?!?!?!"
When did it come to pass that cars have divine dominion over....everything ?!?!?
:(

Those of you contemplating doing this yourself, more power to you. But if you have some type of rod, tube or dowel type device stick out so many feet from your bike, with camera attached to it or not aren't you defeating the purpose? You want police and the media to see how close they get to you, not to some piece stick 2' out form your bike.

Not to mention when a vehicle does hit it, no matter how flexible it can still catch it and not deflect and either pull and drag you in a direction you don't want to go, increase your speed to something you don't want to travel at or push you down into the patf of another vehicle, whether oncoming or otherwise. Please be careful if you pursue something like this.

Thanks for checking out the video, but as the cyclist in the story, I feel I have to correct you on something,

I never stated that if I am killed I will be dead right, the people who produced the story said that. I said I use the cameras so no matter what happens I will have proof that I was in the right.

Pipes,
I don't believe the producer or reporter got any "help from Fox" in doing this story, and I know I didn't get any help from anyone with my cameras. I've been riding with cameras for over a year now and I've been a professional photographer for more than 20 years. If I had any help from a major network I'm sure the video quality would have been better than it was. I can only afford the cheaper cameras not the HD lipstick cameras a network would have.

HoustonB,
I have tossed around that same idea but never figured out how to do it in a way that didn't put me at risk of either getting knocked off my bike each time the rod got hit or snapping back and hitting me. If you figure out how to make it work, let me and all of us know. I'd love to hear the response of the cop when I showed them the video with a yardstick smacking into the car as he went by.

Bikesafer (http://bikesafer.blogspot.com/)
Jeff


My Frings, You're right it did come from the media, sorry for the mis-quote. Where did they get that idea anyway? Did you actually say something like that to them, or allude to that is how you feel?

Just to let you know I found the video on the bikeiowa.com web site; http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/hotnews/newsdisplay.asp?NewsID=3690

I put a post about it on my Advocacy and Safety blog;
http://bicycleadvocacyandsafety.blogspot.com/

When you consulted with the attorney who helped you find proof about cyclists rights to the roadways did you go back to the police dept. and the prosecutor who wrote you the letter to show they are incorrect? Or did the attorney you consulted with send them a letter? What was the outcome of that?

I have been thinking about contacting a local news station in my area to see about doing the same thing here. Only I don't have the small cameras. Maybe the news station does and they can outfit my bike with 3, one facing backward, one facing to the left and one facing forward.

n the current Legislative Session in Des Moines it is being determined whether or not a new bicycle bill of rights law will be passed. It has already passed the Senate and now the House version has yet to be debated. Part of it includes a 5', NOT 3' passing law, along with others.

cameras are a powerful tool and they are only going to get better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQYhsPdU230&feature=channel_page

I'd like to see the legal opinion the city attorney wrote agreeing with the cop that said the cyclist has no right to be on the road. Anyone have a cite for it?

None of those people would have passed me that closely because I would have been about 4 feet further to the left.

None of those people would have passed me that closely because I would have been about 4 feet further to the left.Unless, of course, they pass you that closely, or even closer, as they go around you.

Unless, of course, they pass you that closely, or even closer, as they go around you.

Or passed him just as closely, or even closer on the right.

Unless, of course, they pass you that closely, or even closer, as they go around you.

I've never had that happen. Part of the problem in his video is a reluctance for the motorist to cross the dotted line. Once a motorist realizes that they are forced to cross the line they typically wait for a clearing and give a much wider distance.

Those lanes looked about 10 feet me. Its impossible for me to tell of course but anything less than 13-14 feet is to narrow to share with an auto. According to AASHTO is actually 14 but personally I've found 13 acceptable to me.

I've never had that happen. Part of the problem in his video is a reluctance for the motorist to cross the dotted line. Once a motorist realizes that they are forced to cross the line they typically wait for a clearing and give a much wider distance.

Those lanes looked about 10 feet me. Its impossible for me to tell of course but anything less than 13-14 feet is to narrow to share with an auto. According to AASHTO is actually 14 but personally I've found 13 acceptable to me.Generally, you can't control a driver's behavior by your lane positioning. If a driver wants to give you room when the driver passes, the driver will give you room, no matter where you're positioned in the road. If a driver wants to f with you, the driver will f with you, no matter where you're positioned in the road.

If anything, the only difference that your lane positioning makes, in my experience, is that it infuriates some drivers enough to the point that they want to f with you when they pass.

I'm thinking of doing something similar but with a 3 foot, very thin, flexible rod that sticks out into traffic from the rear rack - the traffic (backward) facing side a mix of neutral colors, the camera facing side high visibility with heavy black lines at the 0, 1, 2 and 3 foot marks (3 feet starts at my elbow, not the bike).




HoustonB,
I have tossed around that same idea but never figured out how to do it in a way that didn't put me at risk of either getting knocked off my bike each time the rod got hit or snapping back and hitting me. If you figure out how to make it work, let me and all of us know. I'd love to hear the response of the cop when I showed them the video with a yardstick smacking into the car as he went by.



There's a device called a 'flash flag'
http://www.flashback.ca/bicycle.html
Dunno if they make them extend a full 3 feet, but ought to be safe enough since they're commercially manufactured.

1. Thank you for doing this. These recordings will do more bicycle advocacy than our rants and cries... 2. Thanks for posting this. It's great and the word needs to be spread.

RIDE ON!

Do what a guy I have seen does- he has some kind of broken aluminum girder sticking off the left side of his rear rack about a food and a half. It's decent sized and shiny, so very visible, and I bet nobody cuts too close out of fear of scratches.

Generally, you can't control a driver's behavior by your lane positioning. If a driver wants to give you room when the driver passes, the driver will give you room, no matter where you're positioned in the road. If a driver wants to f with you, the driver will f with you, no matter where you're positioned in the road.

If anything, the only difference that your lane positioning makes, in my experience, is that it infuriates some drivers enough to the point that they want to f with you when they pass.

I doubt you have much experience with proper lane positioning then.

I doubt you have much experience with proper lane positioning then.:lol:

Every time I've been positioned "properly," I've had a driver f with me. Every time.

Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.

Please, let's NOT turn this into a VC topic/issue. If it is I will shut down the thread, have it deleted, etc.

:lol:

Every time I've been positioned "properly," I've had a driver f with me. Every time.

Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.

I'm just going to ignore you as to not make this a vc argument.

Generally, you can't control a driver's behavior by your lane positioning.

If anything, the only difference that your lane positioning makes, in my experience, is that it infuriates some drivers enough to the point that they want to f with you when they pass.

That's interesting. In my experience, an aggressive lane position reduces the rate of conflicts I have with motorists.

Secondly, doesn't the first sentence in your post contradict the last sentence?

That's interesting. In my experience, an aggressive lane position reduces the rate of conflicts I have with motorists.

Secondly, doesn't the first sentence in your post contradict the last sentence?


His experiences are so far beyond the norm that I quit arguing with him. I figured he did not have adequate information to make an informed statement.

Regardless, this was a great report.

Secondly, doesn't the first sentence in your post contradict the last sentence?Without turning this into a VC debate, which would banish this thread into the VC ghetto...

No, for two reasons. First, I said you can't "control" a driver's behavior (in the first sentence). In the last sentence, I was referring to the reaction drivers have to aggressive lane positioning, rather than my "control" of those drivers.

Second, I qualified my first sentence with the word "generally." The exception to that generalization that you can't control a driver's behavior is that, in my experience, aggressive (or "proper") lane positioning triggers more aggressive behavior in some drivers, while riding to the right does not trigger that aggressive behavior. Therefore, as an exception to that generalization, to the extent that I am not triggering that aggressive behavior through aggressive (or "proper") lane positioning, I can perhaps be said to be "controlling" driver behavior.

Yes, I know, VCistas all have flowers strewn at their wheels and kisses blown by passing motorists, and impromptu motor vehicle parades in their honor, in appreciation of their "proper" lane positioning. I, on the other hand, have had horn-honking, angry words, and super-aggressive buzzing. :rolleyes:

Except when I've been positioned further to the right...

I have tossed around that same idea but never figured out how to do it in a way that didn't put me at risk of either getting knocked off my bike each time the rod got hit or snapping back and hitting me. If you figure out how to make it work, let me and all of us know. I'd love to hear the response of the cop when I showed them the video with a yardstick smacking into the car as he went by.

Bikesafer (http://bikesafer.blogspot.com/)
Jeff

If/when the 3-foot safe passage bill becomes law here in Texas (hopefully September of this year), I'm considering mounting one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Fluorescent-Orange-Bicycle-Flag-Kit/dp/B000RK9DF6) to the back of my rack, so that it sticks out 3 feet horizontally from the rack.

I figured he did not have adequate information to make an informed statement.Yes, I did not have adequate information about my experiences to make an informed statement about them. :lol:

Perhaps you have better information about my experiences that would allow you to make an informed statement? :rolleyes:


Go ahead, banish it to the VC Ghetto, it's already headed there anyway...

He should put a 3"x5" LCD monitor on his handlebars, so he can use the rear facing camera as a rear-view mirror.
Like, every time a truck passes him, he shouts "Hey!", as if he's surprised.

He should get himself an airzounds, instead of shouting.

When the black pick-um-up truck passed, there was traffic coming the other way.

I personally get out of the way of any larger truck, because they are three feet wider than the average car.

Also, I have done a great deal of prototype work, building streamlined bikes, or Human Powered Vehicles, and Electric Mopeds, so I can do the speed limit. I am partially in agreement with the statement that bikes should [only] be in the traffic lane, IF they are doing the speed limit. At least he is moving at a reasonable speed in the video, and not going 9MPH in the middle of the lane like one lycra-clad cyclist I had to pass in my van.

Get an LCD monitor for the rear view camera, man. And watch out if there's traffic coming the other way.

I doubt you have much experience with proper lane positioning then.

+1... Last year I changed my riding style. I started riding in the lane, (about where the passenger tire would run) this has protected me than anything else I could have done. I used to get clipped (and almost clipped) all the time before that. The reason why riding in the lane is best: 1. It puts you in FRONT of the driver. This helps eliminate chance of not being seen. When people are driving (they become zombies) they don't pay attention, especially to anything happening outside of their path (bicycles on the shoulder) and therefore are unaware of how close they are to killing us. 2. Because you're in their way, you've entered their thought process... They now have to consciously decide to pass you, thereby increasing the chance they will give you the necessary space. (not always... but more often than not...)

We have the legal right to ride in the lane, use it! I have spoken both with policemen (bicycle and car) and they all have supported my ideas. Since riding this way, I've only had a handful of close calls (I'm on my bike 6 days a week 30 - 100 miles a day) in urban and rural areas... (Gig Harbor, Port Orchard, Tacoma, Seattle)

+1... So you agree that I don't have much experience with "proper lane positioning"?


I started riding in the lane, (about where the passenger tire would run)Yep, done that, been buzzed agressively within the lane. Moved further left, still been buzzed super-aggressively, by a driver straddling lanes between me and the car in the lane to my left.

So what else can you tell me?

:lol:

Every time I've been positioned "properly," I've had a driver f with me. Every time.

Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.Actually, looking back on it, that's not accurate. There have been times where I've been positioned "properly" and not been buzzed.

It would be more accurate for me to say that every time I've been buzzed, I was positioned "properly." Every time.

And Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.

What I have seen is that generally the room you take is the room that motorists will give... with some exceptions. It is the exceptions that will give you problems. The folks that want to "teach you a lesson."

So for instance say I am in the right tire track to avoid the door zone of motorists... most motorists will see that I have the lane and will just change lanes and move on by. However, along comes the indigent motorist... they will get behind you and rev the engine, or get right on your tail or start honking. This behavior tends to rile other motorists... either due to the fact that the indignant motorist is blocking the lane, or due to this bullying example.

It's an Alpha Dog thing if you will. When you are controlling the lane, you are the Alpha... until another Alpha comes along and challenges... then the whole thing escalates... other motorists may chose just to drive on by, but perhaps a passenger or two shouts out... then maybe another motorist decides to honk...

The whole thing can escalate. And you no longer have control.

Or things can go in yet another direction... the weasel that wants to "teach you a lesson" underestimates speed or distance and you get clipped. Then they get to tell the police "the cyclist swerved."

What I have seen is that generally the room you take is the room that motorists will give... with some exceptions. It is the exceptions that will give you problems. The folks that want to "teach you a lesson."

So for instance say I am in the right tire track to avoid the door zone of motorists... most motorists will see that I have the lane and will just change lanes and move on by. However, along comes the indigent motorist... they will get behind you and rev the engine, or get right on your tail or start honking. This behavior tends to rile other motorists... either due to the fact that the indignant motorist is blocking the lane, or due to this bullying example.

It's an Alpha Dog thing if you will. When you are controlling the lane, you are the Alpha... until another Alpha comes along and challenges... then the whole thing escalates... other motorists may chose just to drive on by, but perhaps a passenger or two shouts out... then maybe another motorist decides to honk...

The whole thing can escalate. And you no longer have control.

Or things can go in yet another direction... the weasel that wants to "teach you a lesson" underestimates speed or distance and you get clipped. Then they get to tell the police "the cyclist swerved."Exactly.

Those of you contemplating doing this yourself, more power to you. But if you have some type of rod, tube or dowel type device stick out so many feet from your bike, with camera attached to it or not aren't you defeating the purpose? You want police and the media to see how close they get to you, not to some piece stick 2' out form your bike.

Not to mention when a vehicle does hit it, no matter how flexible it can still catch it and not deflect and either pull and drag you in a direction you don't want to go, increase your speed to something you don't want to travel at or push you down into the patf of another vehicle, whether oncoming or otherwise. Please be careful if you pursue something like this.

I'm glad you added the "or not" - it would be pretty dumb to actually put the camera on the end of the rod. Please assume that the rod is sticking out, not to show how close the passing vehicles get to the rod, but rather how close they get to the rider i.e. assume that the rod is actually going to be hit. Most things can be engineered to fail gracefully and not pose additional risk on top of those posed by the close passing vehicle. As such, please assume that the rod material is chosen to reduce the likely hood of being 'snagged or caught' on the passing vehicle, also it would be designed to snap-off with little relative force.

If the rod is adequately smooth and flexible, then it might survive multiple impacts, it would also need to be very light to allow rapid acceleration

Also a 3' rod sticking out from a starting point equivalent to my elbow would not be "2' out", it would probably be closer to 4'. You appear to be one of two posters that think the 3' passing clearance starts at the center of the bike and not the rider's elbow - why so?

I think the important thing is what Jeff is doing here. Education, information, and publicity.
To be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be. You do not control them up there, you put your life in THEIR hands.
What do you want your tombstone epitaph to read:? "I HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY" "I HAD CONTROL OF THE LANE" "I HAD THE RIGHT TO BE THERE"?
More power to Jeff.
dc

... To be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be. You do not control them up there, you put your life in THEIR hands. ...

If I am in front of a car and the car is 20 feet behind me and moving at the same speed, then where is the danger?

I've never thought of my riding as "controlling" other vehicles - it is merely influence.

"you put your life in THEIR hands" - speak for yourself only. I decide when, where and how I ride, my life is in my own hands. You reinforce the myth that car drivers are somehow personally responsible for my life - they are only responsible for obeying the rules of the road and staying in control of their well maintained vehicle, if I do likewise then the risks are acceptable to me. It is when car drivers abandon their own responsibilities that others are put in danger, that is when they assume the additional responsibility and consequences that stem from their negligence.

He sure does shout a lot.

If I am in front of a car and the car is 20 feet behind me and moving at the same speed, then where is the danger?


Very little danger if they and you are moving at the same speed.

But what happens when that car is closing fast and moving 30MPH faster then you?



I've never thought of my riding as "controlling" other vehicles - it is merely influence.

"you put your life in THEIR hands" - speak for yourself only. I decide when, where and how I ride, my life is in my own hands. You reinforce the myth that car drivers are somehow personally responsible for my life - they are only responsible for obeying the rules of the road and staying in control of their well maintained vehicle, if I do likewise then the risks are acceptable to me. It is when car drivers abandon their own responsibilities that others are put in danger, that is when they assume the additional responsibility and consequences that stem from their negligence.

The problem is that not all negligent car drivers assume that additional responsibility. There are enough hit and run stories out there to prove that.

Very little danger if they and you are moving at the same speed.

But what happens when that car is closing fast and moving 30MPH faster then you?

The original argument was "to be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be" - what if I had said, no, surely being in front of a loaded gun with the safety off, is the most dangerous place to be, or adjacent to a nuclear reactor melting down and lacking containment, or ... Obviously I am aware that being in front of a moving car 'can be' dangerous, but the "most dangerous"?


The problem is that not all negligent car drivers assume that additional responsibility. There are enough hit and run stories out there to prove that.

Agreed there are too many hit-and-run stories, but what is the ratio of hit-and-run to hit-and-stopped and faced the music? The argument here is not which case falls into the 'exception' category.

To be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be.

To be in front of a car in a position that makes your presence obvious, and makes it obvious that they will have to at least partially change lanes to pass, is a whole heck of a lot safer than being beside a car and trying to share a lane that is too narrow.

Yes, this includes roads with 55 mph speed limits. Or to put it a better way; this is especially important on roads with higher speed limits.

Like, every time a truck passes him, he shouts "Hey!", as if he's surprised.


I was thinking that maybe the producers of that spot dubbed the "HEY!" from one of the clips into all of them. It just sounded way too similar each time.

Oh, and another thing about choosing a lane position further to the left: When you see in your rearview mirror that you're about to get buzzed by the occasional pinhead cager, you have room to shift over a foot or 3 and snatch the wind right out of his sails. Take your lane position back as soon as possible after the pass is made. Make sure you wave just after he gets past.:lol:

Oh, and another thing about choosing a lane position further to the left: When you see in your rearview mirror that you're about to get buzzed by the occasional pinhead cager, you have room to shift over a foot or 3 and snatch the wind right out of his sails. Take your lane position back as soon as possible after the pass is made. Make sure you wave just after he gets past.:lol:Unless the pinhead doesn't realize that you're in complete control of everything, and does this:


Or passed him just as closely, or even closer on the right.

Excellent video.

I'm thinking of doing something similar but with a 3 foot, very thin, flexible rod that sticks out into traffic from the rear rack - the traffic (backward) facing side a mix of neutral colors, the camera facing side high visibility with heavy black lines at the 0, 1, 2 and 3 foot marks (3 feet starts at my elbow, not the bike).

Choosing an appropriate material for the rod is the challenge - it needs to yield without breaking into dangerous projectiles when hit by vehicles that might be doing over 55 mph, but it also needs to be rigid enough not to bend (too much) when riding.

Ideally I would also like something that determines the speed of the passing vehicle, even if it is just me shouting the speed for an audio record.

In Oregon we can use a citizen initiated “violation proceeding” leading to citation (http://bikeportland.org/2006/01/04/new-campaign-to-bring-motorists-to-justice/).

Saw a guy with orange pipe insulation or a "noodle" flotation device