Classic & Vintage - 700c, When??

When did 700C size wheels start to appear on bicycles?

700C tubulars date back at least to the early '60s.

700C tubulars date back at least to the early '60s.

Really? I thought tubulars were always that size. The again, what do I know? :) It'll be interesting to hear what others say.

As for the OP, I'm pretty sure 700C has been around in France since the dinosaurs roamed the earth but if you mean when did they start appearing commonly under that designation on clincher rims on bikes in the United States, I think sometime in the early - mid eighties.

My '72 Bottecchia originally came with sew-ups but the original owner swapped them out for steel clincher rims from Dolomiti at some point (the tires were actually labeled 28x1 1/8 IIRC) but those were 700C. They at least looked very 70-ish so they were probably available then through the aftermarket. BTW, that tripped me up when I bought it - the owners wife was handling the sale and knew very little about the bike. I could see the "Dolomiti" labes on the rims in the picture, a common Italian brand, and the dry rot 28x1 1/8 Clement tires so I assumed they were original and the rims would have been alloy but they weren't. I swapped those steel rims for a nice set of alloy Rigida clinchers like the original owner should have done in the first place.

I seem to remember having 27x1" clinchers for training instead of tubulars in '74-'75. That was a real benefit for a high school student on a very limited budget. But I know I had narrow 700c clinchers by the late '70s. We knew there were wider 700c clinchers out there, but nobody used them in the U.S. because they were pretty much unsupported.

the first maybe 3-4 years of the fuji track came with 27" tubulars

the first maybe 3-4 years of the fuji track came with 27" tubulars

I'd defer to Sheldon on this issue:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

Full-sized tubulars fit rims of the same diameter as 622 mm (700c) clinchers. This size is sometimes referred to as "28 inch" or "700". It is also, confusingly, sometimes referred to as "27 inch." The "27 inch" designation is inaccurate and obsolete, but you'll sometimes run into it in older printed material.
In clincher tires, there is a real difference between "700c" and "27 inch" sizes, but for tubulars this is a false distinction. Whenever you see mention of "27 inch tubulars" the writer is actually referring to standard full-sized tubulars, as used on most racing bikes.

Fortunately, no one ever came up with true 27" / 630mm tubulars, just as no one ever challenged the metric system for electrical units. :)

In the U.S., 27" clinchers were ubiquitous through most of the 1970s, but 700C made steady inroads and eventually too over completely by the mid-1980s.

Any real reason why, other than a carry over from racing?

You could buy 700c wheeled bikes in france back in the forties at least. They are the same size as tubular wheels, so youdon't need to adjust your brakes.

Brakes used to clamp onto the seatstays and forkblades so you could adjust them up and down to fit different size rims. What you couldn't do is change the amount of clearance the frame had. So a frame built for 700 outer diameter size tire/wheel combinations could use a 700a, 700b, 700c by moving the brakes.

Originally 650b and 650c had the same outer diameter with 650c using a smaller diameter rim but fatter tire. Now the 650c rim size has been adopted by triathletes using super skinny tires. 650b still sports manly size tires.

Bicycle tire and rim sizing historically has been a confusing subject as each country had it's own standards. Even some manufacturers such as Schwinn had some oddball sizes.

I have worked on a friend's 1985 Raleigh Technium and it still came with 27" wheels, 630mm, so 27" wheels were still being put on some new bikes that late. I have also seen recommendations that for international trekking 27" tires are much easier to find in many remote areas than 700C. This might be a reason to fit them on even a new bike, depending on intended use.

http://www.classicfuji.com/1978_16_Specifications1_Page.htm knew I should have posted this page. I love sheldon as much as the next guy. Is anyone saying that fuji doesn't know what a tubular is?

My Raleigh Super Grand Prix had 700 Clenchers, and I believe it was either a late 78 or a 79 model. I was pretty surprised to say the least. It was the lowest end 70's bike I had ever seen with 700 rims. They were quite similar in appearance to the 27 inch Weinmann, although I don't remember if they were Weinmann or Araya's. Logic says Weinmann.,,,,BD

I have also seen recommendations that for international trekking 27" tires are much easier to find in many remote areas than 700C. This might be a reason to fit them on even a new bike, depending on intended use.

this is true, and additionally you can go into any Walmart and get a 27" tire. The same can not be said for 700's. Too bad I don't run 27s on any of my touring bikes though :)

I was running 700c wheels as far back as 1974-6 on a a couple of bikes.

Aaron:)

http://www.classicfuji.com/1978_16_Specifications1_Page.htm knew I should have posted this page. I love sheldon as much as the next guy. Is anyone saying that fuji doesn't know what a tubular is?

I know Sheldon has been wrong on occasion but in this case I'd have to go with him unless somebody can show me an actual 630mm (27") sized tubular tire or rim. I've never seen one.

I was running 700c wheels as far back as 1974-6 on a a couple of bikes.

Aaron:)

I would expect that any Italian bike fitted with clincher rims likely had 700C size wheels fitted. I believe that I read somewhere that Michelin introduced the first narrow high pressure 700C clincher tires to the market sometime in the 70s.

I would expect that any Italian bike fitted with clincher rims likely had 700C size wheels fitted. I believe that I read somewhere that Michelin introduced the first narrow high pressure 700C clincher tires to the market sometime in the 70s.

Mine were French bikes for the most part. Interestingly enough my Motobecane came with 27" from the same era. The first bike I had with 700c on it was a Lucien Michard, I have not seen one since then. It was a low end touring bike.

Aaron:)

I would expect that any Italian bike fitted with clincher rims likely had 700C size wheels fitted. I believe that I read somewhere that Michelin introduced the first narrow high pressure 700C clincher tires to the market sometime in the 70s.

My '74 Bottecchia still had Fiamme yellow label 27" clinchers. Oddly, I remember that I broke a rim hiting a curb or something and had it replaced within the first couple of years and they used a Super Champion (pre-Wolber) Gentleman rim. It was still 27" obviously to match the other rim but it was a narrow (13mm inside-20mm outside IIRC) rim with hooked beads unlike the Fiamme which had been a wider straight side rim. I still have the Super Champion hanging in the garage. Not sure exactly what year that was.

My '81 Motobecane Jubilee Sport and my old '85 Peugeot PKN10? still had 27" rims. So does my '88 Panasonic but since it's a touring model that might not mean anything.

I believe that I read somewhere that Michelin introduced the first narrow high pressure 700C clincher tires to the market sometime in the 70s.

Michelin Elans:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PF_New%5C312008%5C/3910845~Michelin-Elan-Bicycle-Tire-Posters.jpg

First tire designed for hooked bead rims.

-Kurt

Late 1970s sounds right for 700C clinchers. In 1974 I built up training wheels for my new bicycle. The only rims available with the same diameter as tubulars were the European 28" rims, which used the 28 x 1-5/8 x 1-1/4 tires.

Really? I thought tubulars were always that size. The again, what do I know? :) It'll be interesting to hear what others say.

As for the OP, I'm pretty sure 700C has been around in France since the dinosaurs roamed the earth but if you mean when did they start appearing commonly under that designation on clincher rims on bikes in the United States, I think sometime in the early - mid eighties.

My '72 Bottecchia originally came with sew-ups but the original owner swapped them out for steel clincher rims from Dolomiti at some point (the tires were actually labeled 28x1 1/8 IIRC) but those were 700C. They at least looked very 70-ish so they were probably available then through the aftermarket. BTW, that tripped me up when I bought it - the owners wife was handling the sale and knew very little about the bike. I could see the "Dolomiti" labes on the rims in the picture, a common Italian brand, and the dry rot 28x1 1/8 Clement tires so I assumed they were original and the rims would have been alloy but they weren't. I swapped those steel rims for a nice set of alloy Rigida clinchers like the original owner should have done in the first place.

I didn't mean to say "not before teh early '60s," I thought I was saying "at least as early as teh early '60s." I did not rule out dinosaurs riding on 700C tubulars.

Any real reason why, other than a carry over from racing?

Racing and training were probably drivers in the popularity of 700C clinchers. I recall in the '70s, many people buying sew-up bikes were advised to also get a set of clincher wheels "for the street." Now we all know it's easier to cross-fit wheels if the rims all have their brake tracks in the same place.

While in the in Germany in the late 60's I had Gitane build me a bike and I had the choice of 27" or 700 clinchers or tublars. I sold that that bike two years ago with both sets of wheels 27" and 700 tublars. :mad:That is what got me interested in vintage bikes. A guy came to buy some electronic equipment from me and saw the bike in my shop's rafters.
Ed

Late 1970s sounds right for 700C clinchers. In 1974 I built up training wheels for my new bicycle. The only rims available with the same diameter as tubulars were the European 28" rims, which used the 28 x 1-5/8 x 1-1/4 tires.

I believe that is the northern European designation for 700C. 700C is just the French name for that size.

While I do not have a definitive response to the OP’s questions, I would like to make some observations regarding the various responses, most of which are correct. Unless otherwise stated, all my statements are made in reference to clinchers, as opposed to tubulars..

700C is simply a metric designation for a tire with a nominal outer diameter of 700mm and a bead seat diameter of 622mm. Equivalent, compatible tires exist in imperial sizes. These imperial tires all have a nominal outside diameter of 28”, though there are variations of bead seat diameters among 28” tires, so not all 28” tires are 700C compatible. Basically, the same size tire exists in both metric and imperial measurements.

The French and English were the original leaders in the bicycle industry and developed separate standards around metric and imperial measurement, respectively. A 622mm bead seat diameter is equivalent to 24.49". This is so close to 24.5", that I suspect the English 28" tire, with a 25.5 bead seat diameter, is the actual origin for the size. If the French had originated the size, I would think that a more convenient bead seat, such as 620mm or 625mm, would have been selected. Most likely, the French simply re-engineered the imperial tire to a metric measurement, so it could be understood in France and other nations where the population and bicycle industry employed metric standards (i.e. Belgium, Spain and Switzerland).

Based on catalogs I own, tires in the imperial designation equivalent to 700C go back at least as far as the 1940s. While it would not be unreasonable to think that the French were manufacturing tires with 700C designations at the same time, I don’t have any objective evidence. I’ve seen French catalogs from the 1950s referencing 700C, though it is unclear if these are tubular or not. Tires with 700C designations were definitely being marketed in the USA during the 1960s, though primarily as specialty items.

With the 1970’s boom, the USA finally became a major market for European, derailleur equipped bicycles. The common tire size was 27” x 1-1/4” but there were also substantial sales in tubular tired models. Many tubulars were actually labeled 27” x 1”. This appears to have been purely marketing, so as to not alienate a potential buyer who was not familiar with metric. While it might seem logical to apply a 28” designation, based on the rim diameter, it was too difficult to explain why a tubular with a 28” designation had a outer diameter smaller than a 27” tire. Visually, 27" was the imperial size, that a tubular was cloest to.

Due the fragility of tubulars, many owners replaced them with clinchers or purchased a set of clinchers for training. The most popular option was 28” x 1-5/8” x 1-1/4”, generally of Italian manufacture. Typically these were more widely available, partially because of their imperial designation and partially because the Italian brands typically had slightly higher pressure ratings. As the boom progressed and consumers became more knowledgeable, tire manufacturers started marking these tires with both metric and imperial designations.

The 28” x 1-5/8” x 1-1/4” tire was not without drawbacks. Even though you did not have to reset pad height, the rim was wider than tubular rims, meaning you did have to reset brake clearance. Additionally, this tire was non-round, having a higher profile. Aspects added to weight and caused clearance issues on some racing models with tight frame design. This opened up the door for the 700C breakthrough, in the form on Michelin’s Elan tire. Introduced in 1976, it was lighter, provided more clearance and a had a slightly higher pressure rating than the existing, competition. As a bonus, it was designed in conjunction with Mavic’s new, narrow, box section rim that was stronger and lighter than existing clincher technology.

The 700C version of the Elan (it was also available in 27” x 1”) quickly became the popular choice of performance orientated cyclists desiring more reliability than tubulars and manufacturers started specifying them as OEM equipment on bicycles. Several major bicycle brands were employing 700C by the end of the decade and by the mid-1980s, 700C was the dominant tire on mid-range, performance oriented bicycles.