Classic and Vintage Bicycles: What's it Worth? Appraisals and Inquiries - John Howard by Dave Moulton

I have a John Howard frame built by Dave Moulton. I got it from a friend who raced in the Houston area in the 80's. I have had the bike about 10 years thinking I might take up riding. I never did and am cleaning out the garage. I would like to find the value of it so I can sell it. Let me start by start by saying I am not a rider so talk slow and use small words when you ask me questions. A lot of the accessories on the bike have Campagnolo stamped on them. It has Wolber Profil20 wheels (no tires). The front forks have a Cinelli badge on them. Since it was raced, there are scratches on the parts that would hit the ground first (ends of the front and rear axles) The paint on the frame however is what I would consider excellent. There are no scrapes, just a few rock chips around the rear wheel. The frame size is 57 and it is number 215. I would appreciate any information you could give me on what the value is and what is the best way to sell it. Thank you.

It's not a question that can be answered easily. Basically, it's a very limited production bike from a very well respected builder, and has the name a very respected rider....so, there is no "real" value to it, some might pay big bucks for it. I've got a KHS John Howard hanging in the garage. It means quite a bit to me as Howard's riding era is when I got into cycling, and I've done work with KHS...but I bought the frame and fork for less than $100 on ebay. I guess the question is, how much do you want to get out of it? What is it worth to you?

It looks like a mish-mash of parts on there. In general, bikes with uniform component groups (all the parts are the same company) bring better money than bikes with parts from different companies.

That being said, I'm going to get the ball rolling by saying $400 for the frame and fork and $400-600 for the complete bike. 57cm happens to be one of the more popular sizes.

What brand are the following:

Front gear changer (derailleur)?
Brake calipers (part by the wheel)?
Hubs (center part of the wheel that the axle goes through)?
Crankset (part with the big rings with teeth that the pedals attach to)?
Seatpost (holds seat on)?

Thank you for making the questions easy.

Here you go:

Front gear changer (derailleur)? Campagnolo
Brake calipers (part by the wheel)? Campagnolo
Hubs (center part of the wheel that the axle goes through)? Mavic
Crankset (part with the big rings with teeth that the pedals attach to)? Shimano
Seatpost (holds seat on)? Campagnolo

Mike

Mr. Moulton has been keeping track of ebay sales of frames he built for years. You can see the list with prices here (http://prodigalchild.net/Ebay02-09.pdf) to get an idea of what it might bring at auction. You might be able to get a hold of him and get additional specific info on your frame by contacting him on his blog (http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/).

If you're gonna sell it make sure you take excellent pics of the bike. Nice clear close up shots are awesome.
Best of luck! If it wasn't so big I'd PM ya an offer....Sweet bike!:thumb:

Thank you for making the questions easy.

Here you go:

Front gear changer (derailleur)? Campagnolo
Brake calipers (part by the wheel)? Campagnolo
Hubs (center part of the wheel that the axle goes through)? Mavic
Crankset (part with the big rings with teeth that the pedals attach to)? Shimano
Seatpost (holds seat on)? Campagnolo

Mike

OK, you've got some decent parts on the bike.

The rear changer (derailleur) is a Super Record so the front changer (derailleur) and brakes may be Super Record as well.

A few more questions:

1. Is there any black coloring on the front derailler? Black indicates Super Record.
2. How may bolts hold the seat to the seatpost? Is it one bolt on the back side of the post or 2 bolts (one on the backside and one on the front side?) 2 bolts would be a Super Record post while one would be a Record. From the pic it looks like a Super Record.
3. On the backside of the Shimano cranks there's a numer. Something like FC-7XXX of FC-6XXX. What is it? 7XXX id Dura Ace while 6XXX is 600 series.
4. The letting on the brake, is it block print or script?

These questions are inportant as the subtle difference among components could alter the price by hundreds......

As an example, the derailleurs. Regular Nuovo Records go for ~$50-75/pr. Super Records go for $125-150/pair. A Record seatpost goes for $35-50 while a Super Record post brings >$100.

Sometimes a complete bike brings more than if everything is sold seperatly, sometimes not.

Whatever you do be sure to get the bars wrapped in a neutral color and put some tires on it before you sell it. The $90 you put inot will pay for itself in the long run.

I'll try my best to answer but I will throw in a few more pictures if that helps. Thanks again for taking the time to look at this with me.

1. Is there any black coloring on the front derailler? Black indicates Super Record. Yes, the dogbone shaped piece that the cable attaches to is black.
2. How may bolts hold the seat to the seatpost? Is it one bolt on the back side of the post or 2 bolts (one on the backside and one on the front side?) 2 bolts would be a Super Record post while one would be a Record. From the pic it looks like a Super Record. No such luck, just one bolt.
3. On the backside of the Shimano cranks there's a numer. Something like FC-7XXX of FC-6XXX. What is it? 7XXX id Dura Ace while 6XXX is 600 series. It is an FC_7400
4. The letting on the brake, is it block print or script? Script.

One bolt is super record, no? Adjusts from the bottom. Two bolt nuovo record adjust from the top, under the seat, and difficult to access?

One bolt is super record, no? Adjusts from the bottom. Two bolt nuovo record adjust from the top, under the seat, and difficult to access?

It appears to have a Super Record seatpost and Super Record brakes. I'm far from a Campy so I could be mistaken on the brakes.

The cranks are 1st gen Dura-Ace.

Thank you for the information. There was some very helpful information at those sites.

Mike

Mr. Moulton has been keeping track of ebay sales of frames he built for years. You can see the list with prices here (http://prodigalchild.net/Ebay02-09.pdf) to get an idea of what it might bring at auction. You might be able to get a hold of him and get additional specific info on your frame by contacting him on his blog (http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/).

If you're gonna sell it make sure you take excellent pics of the bike. Nice clear close up shots are awesome.
Best of luck! If it wasn't so big I'd PM ya an offer....Sweet bike!:thumb:

Those prices are underwhelming considering the reputation of the builder, but that was the market. With the caviat that on ebay its presentation. Also, repaints especially for a Fuso with the multicolour scheme are not cheap.

Thanks to all who helped me with this post. I have listed the bike for sale on ebay using the information you helped me obtain.

Best wishes,

Mike

I'm gonna be honest here.....Your auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-John-Howard-road-bike-by-Dave-Moulton_W0QQitemZ190301738196QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item190301738196&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50) sucks. You should have cleaned the bike up, taken way better pics, and put tires, brake lever hoods and new bar wrap on it. As it sits it looks like a cobbled together mess. Also your description is seriously lacking. That thing has Super Record on it!

Your selling yourself short.....That's just my opinion of course.

.....Your auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-John-Howard-road-bike-by-Dave-Moulton_W0QQitemZ190301738196QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item190301738196&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50) sucks..


Very well put!!! My CL ads are better than that!!!

Sometimes I think I should start a CL/Ebay ad writting service. $25/ad.

You guys are a tad hard on the OP's eBay listing. Consider listings with less than ideal photos and descriptions as possible flip opportunities.

For the viewing audience at home: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190301738196

All that being said, everyone was rather cordial this time around. Sometimes, those that swoop in just for selling advice are not always treated so kindly.

You guys are a tad hard on the OP's eBay listing. Consider listings with less than ideal photos and descriptions as possible flip opportunities.

For the viewing audience at home: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190301738196

All that being said, everyone was rather cordial this time around. Sometimes, those that swoop in just for selling advice are not always treated so kindly.


I think the difference is that the owner was up front from the start. He said, "I'd like to find the value of it so I can sell it". Fair and honest. Cant argue with that.

While your right that a poorly written ad can be to a buyers advantage its also to my disadvantage because it keeps completed listing averages low. The more parts and bikes sell for the more i can ask for my bikes and parts!!!

I'm just saying he's selling him self short. There was quite a bit of info laid out hardly any of which was used in the listing. A simple "Super Record" in the title and good pics of the components would boost that sale IMO. Plus some tires, hoods and tape....Minimal cost, better pay out. He's gonna get jacked on shipping too being free and done by a shop and all....I hope that shop knows what they're doing!

Someone will probably get a deal though...If it shows up in good shape.

Ironically, I bought a DM John Howard frameset a couple years ago off a CL listing where the photo of the bike—probably using a cell phone camera—had it leaning against a bathroom vanity. I think it got for like $80, site unseen, no questions asked. It turns out that it was (and is) in pristine condition as it was most likely used as a donor bike for Campy SR—perhaps even 50th Anniversary—that was often used in the original builds. My guess is that this one has a similar story and some of the original SR found another home someplace. Mine is a solid blue, no fade, which makes me wonder if OP's is a Dave M build (which it certainly looks to be) with a Dave T paint (Dave M claims to have all his solid paint). The late serial number and lack of a decal would support that too. If that's the case, this could be a very rare find (maybe Dave M himself could add some clarity? Dave? You out there?). The point is that in this instance, it doesn't really matter how crappy the listing is. Someone who is looking for this kind of thing will have found it by now and the rest can be taken care of through questions and answers. As a result of this thread, the seller will have a good sense of what it's worth so I'm not seeing a flip opportunity either. In the final analysis, it's about finding what could be a pretty special bike a worthy new home.

btw: miamijim, you're idea of charging a fee for ads is not all that absurd. I've done it a number of times myself (albeit I take the photos, write the copy, html code, the whole kit-&-kaboodle)

In the final analysis, it's about finding what could be a pretty special bike a worthy new home.

+1

The bike is amazing.....If it was my size I'd be bidding on it.

One bolt is super record, no? Adjusts from the bottom. Two bolt nuovo record adjust from the top, under the seat, and difficult to access?

Early Super Record was two bolt ala Record. I believe the fluting helps to distinguish Record (no fluting) from Super Record in a case like that.