Commuting - The begining of the end of automotive culture ?

scientist has predicted that the price of oil will raise sharply between the year 2000 and 2020. And gas will get very very expensive day by day. It is the point where oil production are not enough for the demand. They have predicted the year is 2010.

But look at the gas prices today. Is it happening earlier then we think it is ?

One guy that I have met said, " Don't worry, there will be solution !". But I doubt it. How do you think ?

I have felt one person per car getting millions of people into the urban work place, to be a tremendous waste of the planets resources for a long time. Traveling on freeways that don't move is an obvious waste of lots of resources- including our own time. Mass transit a human need when and where possible. Even vital to the interets of the state.
Solutions? If so, will not be in time to prevent an economic crisis.

What we need to remember here is that higher fuel prices alone won't cause this. Heck even five years ago people who couldn't really afford fuel were making other sacrifices to ensure they got it (even if it meant expecting their own children to skip meals and so on. Yes, this really does happen). About the only way it's going to have an impact is if it goes so high that people simply can't make the necessary sacrifices. And even then, they'll probably try to steal for it.

Of course, in these days of government by opinion poll, is it not possible that there will be pressure on governments to increase the existing fuel subsidies to cover the price increases? I expect there will be more than a few calls for them to absorb at least some of the impact (so much for capitalism).

And if you think fuel prices are expensive now? Just wait. We aint seen nothing yet.

well... i don't know about elsewhere.. but in california, the reason for why gas prices are going up is not because of oil shortages or opec not pumping enough. california alone has 5 oil refineries and produces more than enough oil per day. so why is price going sky high in cali? simple... because all the gas station owners feels that consumers can and willing to accept higher prices. last year when gas prices shot up to $2.20 per gallon, consumers complained.. but that didn't stop them from buying.

therefore, this time as the price is raised up by gas station owners.. they think people won't complain too much again either. another reason why gas station owners say it's going up is because cost of living in cali is too high, therefore they need to pay their employees more money. but the thing is.. majority of the gas station owners here operates with 1-3 people only. most of them are either their relatives or their their family members. so i guess they need a raise eh?

the cost for the gast station owners to buy the gas didn't go up either.. thus the cost of raising price is just out of pure greed. therefore, unless everyone stops driving and ride.. price will just go up as they please. now my commute is 4 miles one way... so i just ride instead. but by june, i'll be moving into my new house which is 11 miles (22 miles round trip) from my work. the worse thing is... the fastest way to get there is by freeway (which i doubt they will let me ride there... haha). i had a dream that everyone boycotted against gas prices and everyone started riding on freeways... that would be soo awesome to riding the the freeways...

About the price fixing...I really just don't believe it.

About the price fixing...I really just don't believe it.

believe it yo! otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it on KRON Channel 2 News from the bay area. also, they interviewed 3 gas station owners whom made the same statement of having to raise up gas price so they can afford to pay their employees. if that's not price fixing what is? i was shocked when i watched that too.. and didn't believe it.. but just take a look around.. what else is driving the price up except price fixing?

but just take a look around.. what else is driving the price up except price fixing?

How bout the fact that demand for gasoline is steadily increasing and the supply is steadily decreasing?

How bout the fact that demand for gasoline is steadily increasing and the supply is steadily decreasing?

Gready fuel companies and goverments go hand in hand, srangle the private service stations market then hold punters to ransom to pay over the top prices for there b@#$it election promises,proffits and wastes..

Also over here gas for cars was cheap ,then gov ofered $500 to convert to gas lots of punters changerd /Yes you guest it up went the price of gas with no other market influenceces .Gas is exported
from Western Australia over to chinna Etc for 1/10" of the local cost.Once our resorces are pillaged the gov will decide whats next that will make them loads of cashwith little social consiance.

The other thing is the amont of cars with only one occupant this happens allot in perth and possibly els where.
The major companys want to strangle out the family ,small buisness to maximise there greed and so as theres is no competition.

they interviewed 3 gas station owners whom made the same statement of having to raise up gas price so they can afford to pay their employees. if that's not price fixing what is?

That's not price fixing, that's just maximising profit - which is what a capitalist economy is all about. It only becomes price-fixing when all of the oil companies get together and agree to charge a certain price. I've not seen any evidence this is happening. You can't have it both ways. Either we are capitalists and thus allow firms to charge whatever they like for goods and services, or we go down the road of communism and freeze prices.


Gready fuel companies and goverments go hand in hand, srangle the private service stations market then hold punters to ransom to pay over the top prices for there b@#$it election promises,proffits and wastes..

Don't think for one moment that the "private" service stations are any less greedy than any of the others. They're only in the business for one reason -- and no doubt they're just as glad as anyone else about the government subsidies keeping fuel prices artificially low.

About the price fixing...I really just don't believe it.

O yes price fixing is allive and well, no one will really takle the problem because it offers huge the proffts to just a few in that market, and gov taxes so there not going to look to hard.While the punter gets ripped off.

At the LBS there sales have gone up why has'nt the prices of tyes ETC reduced or stayed the same, cheaper bying in bulk for them to pass on savings,or is that being to synnical?

so why is price going sky high in cali? simple... because all the gas station owners feels that consumers can and willing to accept higher prices. last year when gas prices shot up to $2.20 per gallon, consumers complained.. but that didn't stop them from buying.

Sounds like normal market forces to me. Businesses have always charged as much as they think people will pay.


therefore, this time as the price is raised up by gas station owners.. they think people won't complain too much again either. another reason why gas station owners say it's going up is because cost of living in cali is too high, therefore they need to pay their employees more money. but the thing is.. majority of the gas station owners here operates with 1-3 people only. most of them are either their relatives or their their family members. so i guess they need a raise eh?

Yes. Why wouldn't they?

Sounds like normal market forces to me. Businesses have always charged as much as they think people will pay.



Yes. Why wouldn't they?

So true some punters expect to get ripped off in affluent earas.Expensive places to go are high tourist destinatoins because people go to these in droves ,owners go come in suckers.

Crude prices have reached $40 a barrell..Omen of trends to come..One of biggest worries is that Saudi Arabia is facing increased internal insecurity. The domestic situation is not good there...Any production problems with Saudi Arabia- some oil predictions as to futures..SOme estimates have been as high as $100 a barrell.
Maybe local distributors will not be able to gouge us, when demand falls because people can't afford the stuff.

Crude prices have reached $40 a barrell..Omen of trends to come..One of biggest worries is that Saudi Arabia is facing increased internal insecurity. The domestic situation is not good there...Any production problems with Saudi Arabia- some oil predictions as to futures..SOme estimates have been as high as $100 a barrell.
Maybe local distributors will not be able to gouge us, when demand falls because people can't afford the stuff.

Less cars the more air to breath, now that'l be marvlouse.
The arrabs would'nt mind they havent got cammels that run on petrol?

Capitalism is the answer. Gas prices are rising, but some experts are saying that hybrid cars will out number stricly gas powered cars within the next five years. Hydrogen and purely electric cars are expected to be mainstream in ten.

Unfortunately bicycles have never, and will never, figure into the equation for most people. Let them get fat and waste their money, it makes no difference to me.

There are some X-Files conspiracy theories on this stuff. . .

If you compare our gas prices to what they pay in Europe, there is definitely evidence of price fixing. . .the US government has been artificially holding the price down. By using the IMF and sanctions (or lack thereof) on things like the Valdez oil spill, the Government pressures major gas companies to hold the price down. The government does not want it to be economically feasible to drill for the US oil reserves in the Gulf, Texas, and in Alaska. By pressuring the Middle East into keeping oil cheap, we can continue to drive around our urban sprawl until their oil is depleted, then weild a strategic advantage in the global economy, especailly militarily, based upon our oil reserves.

I don't subscribe to that theory. The government can't even cover up affairs with teenage interns, let alone smelly oil tycoons. But it does seem odd that we all acknowledge that US gas is cheaper than in Europe but that the need to drive everywhere is greater in the US. That violates capitalism if there is truly a global economy linking Europe and the US.

Capitalism is the answer. Gas prices are rising, but some experts are saying that hybrid cars will out number stricly gas powered cars within the next five years. Hydrogen and purely electric cars are expected to be mainstream in ten.

Unfortunately bicycles have never, and will never, figure into the equation for most people. Let them get fat and waste their money, it makes no difference to me.



I used to look forward to the time when a gas powered car would be too expensive for the everyday person. Until I realized that people will never ever ever stop driving! Today gas powered, tomorrow hybrid, next week hydrogen/solar (even coal).

Last year there was a problem in Phoenix: I believe a petroleum main that supplies the city broke. I remember reading that people where driving for miles, many to other cities, just to fill up their tanks. There was a quote on cnn . com from a naive women complaining that gas was getting to point of being almost like gold. Gas has been, for almost a century, second only to water as the most important substance on earth.

If the petroleum were to dry up within 10yrs I think we will all revert to small self sufficient medieval type towns. Including the archetypical blacksmith and town crier. Except they'll be replaced by the town computer guy and telephone guy.

Greed, Schmeed... It is the American way. Capitalism is all about balancing supply and demand. With fossil fuel, there is an almost infinite demand. Therefore, the only limit on price is competition. Company A raises prices to match company B, but then company C starts selling at a lower rate to "buy" customers away and company A and B lower prices. It's a big cycle where prices slowly inflate, then drop, just to inflate again. I just laugh when I hear about how unfair it is that a company is maximizing thier profit by balancing the price a customer will pay with what their competitor can sell it for. I mean give me a break, is anyone here willing to take less pay to make it more fair for an employer? You have a service to sell and you price yourself at the highest level that an employer is willing to pay you... Gasoline companies are doing the same sort of thing. In fact, I would love to see prices go higher. It makes me sick to see these suburbanite losers commuting (one per car) to work in Yukons, H2's, Expeditions, and anything else that can suck up several gallons on their 20 mile each way trip to the office. So let the gas companies inflate prices, let the SUVers get penalized, and let more people at least consider a bicycle commute... even if it doesn't work out for many of them, they might understand one of the many reasons we commute by bicycle :)

We live in a time when milk is $3 a gallon, cigarettes are $6 a pack, cable TV is $65/month, Starbucks coffee $2 a cup, $100 for a pair of sneakers ...

Not only would we pay $3 a gallon for gas, but we would send our young men and women overseas to die for it. I'm ashamed to be human.

but some experts are saying that hybrid cars will out number stricly gas powered cars within the next five years. Hydrogen and purely electric cars are expected to be mainstream in ten.

Unfortunately bicycles have never, and will never, figure into the equation for most people.

hybrid, electric and hydrogen car are not the solution for transportation problem. First, hybrid car still using gas, only a little bit less. electric car can only goes for 30 km when charged full ! u can get even further with a bicycle ! And the last one...hydrogen....there just not enough electricity to generate enough hydrogen for everybody. And hydrogen car is bloody expensive.

So true some punters expect to get ripped off in affluent earas.

What are punters? Is that slang for comsumers?

"Gready fuel companies and goverments go hand in hand" You hit the nail right on the head....

But we have pumped out most of the easy oil, for the last twenty years or so we have been pumping out oil that more costly to recover. So the price is higher.

Last year there was a problem in Phoenix: I believe a petroleum main that supplies the city broke. I remember reading that people where driving for miles, many to other cities, just to fill up their tanks. There was a quote on cnn . com from a naive women complaining that gas was getting to point of being almost like gold. Gas has been, for almost a century, second only to water as the most important substance on earth.
.

This made me laugh. The situation reminds me of the movie "Road Warrior" where people will be riding around town with shotguns and weapon on top of the cars, searching for the last tank of gas. HA HA..

Sounds like normal market forces to me. Businesses have always charged as much as they think people will pay.



Yes. Why wouldn't they?


Actually, the Bay Area poster is incorrect. The number of refineries in California are just adequate to keep up with normal demand. Due to NIMBY problems, and hammering the oil companies over environmental quality, they haven't built any new ones here in a long time, while the number of cars just keeps increasing.

now my commute is 4 miles one way... so i just ride instead. but by june, i'll be moving into my new house which is 11 miles (22 miles round trip) from my work. the worse thing is... the fastest way to get there is by freeway (which i doubt they will let me ride there... haha). i had a dream that everyone boycotted against gas prices and everyone started riding on freeways... that would be soo awesome to riding the the freeways...


Where will you be living and commuting to? Eleven miles isn't a bad commute unless you have to climb one of the ranges of hills around here. I'm trying to work up the fitness level to go from north Newark to San Jose past downtown as many times as possible a week.

Actually the one of the reasons California gas prices are high is the fact they have one of the highest state tax on that gas they sell, in fact California pays 32 cents per gallon total for State taxes, only Hawaii and Nevada are higher (I live in Indiana and my state gas tax is 18 cents). Plus they also have to deal with the cost of oxgenated (MTBE) gas, as well as 35 other states. And now oil companies are having to pay for doing away with MTBE and clean up the mess MTBE made for our water supply. Problem is so far is there is no federal regulation yet ordering the oil companies to eliminate MTBE; on top of that, Congress is considering legislation to strictly limit oil company liability for contaminating groundwater in at least 35 states with the toxic gasoline additive MTBE because the government requested the oil companies add this stuff! So now the oil companies won't have to pay near the cost to "clean" our water! So guess how some of the cost is going to be paid? Water companies! That's why your water bills have been increasing.

If this oil problem escalates there will be a major problem far worse than high gasoline prices...have you all been thinking about why the United States is reconsidering the draft issue again for our military?

What are punters? Is that slang for comsumers?

Yes it is. Either that, or they're just really bad gamblers in that part of the world.

Where will you be living and commuting to? Eleven miles isn't a bad commute unless you have to climb one of the ranges of hills around here. I'm trying to work up the fitness level to go from north Newark to San Jose past downtown as many times as possible a week.

I find people move to distant locations all the time and soon find themselves having to buy more cars and become auto dependant. My brother did that and now he and his wife are paying for two cars instead of owning their own home. A friend at work just had a baby and moved to a home far away in the burbs so now they have to buy two new cars. Needless to say, between the mortgage and two cars payments, he's burried in debt for the next thirty years!

Folks. If you're going to move to the middle of nowhere and become dependant on automobiles, you have my sincere condolences. All the money my friend saved in his new home out in the burbs will be spend financing, servicing and fueling his new autos.

I did just the opposite. I moved from an area with good transportation to a town with great public transportation. You have to make the decision on what is important when it comes to your transportation costs. Too often, most people choose auto transport as their choice. A pity.

My monthly transportation cost are $93.00 dollars per month. My brother spends that much in gas alone.

How bout the fact that demand for gasoline is steadily increasing and the supply is steadily decreasing?

uh.. no... OPEC is pumping out more than last year. all 5 refineries in cali is producing more gas then ever before. supply is decreasing? hardly... don't forget US still has alaska for crude oil as a last resort... not to mention the oil in iraq.

[QUOTE=froze]Actually the one of the reasons California gas prices are high is the fact they have one of the highest state tax on that gas they sell, in fact California pays 32 cents per gallon total for State taxes, only Hawaii and Nevada are higher QUOTE]

California gas prices are so high because a motor centric state has many more costs than one with good rail transportation. California has massive highways that cost billions to construct and hundreds of millions to repair, police and clean. There is only one way to subsidize this massive never ending road construction in California it's through gas taxes. Plain and Simple.

Here's a idea. Why not find a job that's several bocks away from the rail road? Then find a place to live that's further down the line. This way, you can take the train to work and back home!

HEY... That's what I did and it worked for me!

uh.. no... OPEC is pumping out more than last year. all 5 refineries in cali is producing more gas then ever before. supply is decreasing? hardly... don't forget US still has alaska for crude oil as a last resort... not to mention the oil in iraq.

The correct answer is that supply is decreasing but we are pumping more than ever before. Alaska will also run out within this century. As for Iraq, it's been noted that these folks have less oil than once thought. In fact, the reason why we are not taking the oil from them is because if we do, they wouldn't have any for themselves after the war.

Here in Finland the gas costs 4,5 euros per gallon (1,2 euros per liter), which would be about 5$? Just be happy (or sad) with your cheap blood oil. Actually, what makes the gas here expensive is the 40 % tax. Which is just right for the car commuters.

What are punters? Is that slang for comsumers?


yes/ its a bit like putting on a bet and not knowing what your realy going to get for your money.

Here in Finland the gas costs 4,5 euros per gallon (1,2 euros per liter), which would be about 5$? Just be happy (or sad) with your cheap blood oil. Actually, what makes the gas here expensive is the 40 % tax. Which is just right for the car commuters.

Question...U.S.gas has been skyrocketing.. It is mostly credited to the price of crude...Has gas prices been skyrocketing as much in Europe? Probably in the last six months price per gallon has gone up .45 cents. Everything else is going up correspondendly. Milk over $4 gallon.
The price of crude should effect the whole world as much as here.?
Yes, but it is predicted our gas will be $3 gallon before years' end.
From what I have seen of Europe, that 40% gas tax gets most of Europe alternative transportation. Buses, trams, subways.?
We will be paying 60% of what you pay and no similiar transportation services.

Sorry...I actually checked(!) our gas tax, which is of course 70 %, not the ridiculous 40 per cent. The gas price has been rising (due to the crude oil price), the more accurate price is 5,3 $/gallon. Preciously the magic line used to be one euro per liter, but that´s been crossed a couple of years ago.

Some finnish people were interviewed yesterday in the news about the gas price, and they said that it´s not something they stop buying, if it gets more expensive.
Just like tobacco or drugs :(

Actually I understand people, who live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive like over 50 km to work; that´s understandable. But people, who live in 10-20 km range of their works (which actually most people here live), could easily use mass transit or a bike. It´s just laziness or an attitude problem. We have quite a good mass transit system and good bike paths, so it can´t depend on that, either. Maybe it´s our cold and dark winter..?

hybrid, electric and hydrogen car are not the solution for transportation problem. First, hybrid car still using gas, only a little bit less. electric car can only goes for 30 km when charged full ! u can get even further with a bicycle ! And the last one...hydrogen....there just not enough electricity to generate enough hydrogen for everybody. And hydrogen car is bloody expensive.

If you reread my post:

"but some experts are saying that hybrid cars will out number stricly gas powered cars within the next five years. Hydrogen and purely electric cars are expected to be mainstream in ten."

...you'll see that I'm not disagreeing with you. I said hybrid cars in the next 5 years, meaning as they become more efficient. Electric and hydrogen cars IN 10 YEARS, as they become more efficient. If they were feasible alternatives right now, we'd already be using them.

Be it hydrogen, electric or something else, there WILL be a replacement for gas powered cars sometime in the future. People aren't going to give up motorized transportation anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more people riding self-powered vehicles, but I just don't see it happening. People are lazier now than they've ever been, and it's only going to get worse before it gets better.

Not sure whether it would mean the end of automotive culture, or an improvement in it. I just got back from the south of France, where gas is about $5 a gallon. We rented a Fiat Punto. This lis a neat little car -- about 1800 pounds, with a 60 hp, 1200 cc engine and a five speed manual.

It was as almost as much fun to drive as the sports cars of 40 years ago! In fact, acceleration, braking, and handling were nearly identical to my 1965 Triumph Spitfire.

Conclusion: motoring might actually improve if gas went to $5/gallon. We might even see proper sports cars again, for the first time in 30-40 years.

Paul

Your first step should be declaring a suspension of the sale of 89 octane gasoline in the state.
As far as California is concerned I like some of UCAN's suggestions for my part of the state.
http://www.ucan.org/press/Governorgas5-10-4.html

Oil conspiracy thread!

As most of you know, oil prices fluctuate regularly for reasons unrelated to the total global supply of usable oil. That's what's happening now.

More serious is the question of political stability in Saudi Arabia. If some anti-Western government comes to power, and threatens to cut off oil, then prices will rise considerably. What to do about that is another topic.

What is unlikely to happen, however high the price of light crude oil becomes, is that "automotive culture" comes to an end. There are other plenty of other sources of gasoline than light crude oil. It's possible to make oil from coal, tar sands, oil shale, and other sources. These are all more expensive sources of gasoline than light crude oil, but if the price of light crude becomes high enough, and remains high, other sources will become profitable. Driving may be more expensive in the future, but demand for driving is fairly inelastic relative to the price of gasoline. So, no one alive is likely to see the end of "automotive culture".

Be it hydrogen, electric or something else, there WILL be a replacement for gas powered cars sometime in the future. People aren't going to give up motorized transportation anytime soon.


I happen to think the cost of extracting and transporting coal from the earth will make hydrogen more expensive than gasoline. When you think about it, the home of the future will be electric from top to bottom when oil and natural gas expire. Can you imagine what your monthly electic bill will be when your washing machine, stove, heater/furnace, lights and car are ALL drawing electricity from your home?? Talk about an expensive lifestyle! You going to need a second or third job just to pay off your utility bills!

To be honest, I think the whole concept of an electric car is dead. If you have to plug the thing in and wait 10 hours for the batteries to charge it will never work. We'll go back to steam engines before you see people driving a golf cart size electric cars. Make no doubt about it. Hydrogen and electric power are the replacement and we will be burning tons of coal each day to generate this "fuel" of the future. Cars will use hydrogen and your home will be all electric. The questions remains, will you be able to afford the hydrogen after paying off your electric bill?

Oil conspiracy thread!

What is unlikely to happen, however high the price of light crude oil becomes, is that "automotive culture" comes to an end. There are other plenty of other sources of gasoline than light crude oil. It's possible to make oil from coal, tar sands, oil shale, and other sources. These are all more expensive sources of gasoline than light crude oil, but if the price of light crude becomes high enough, and remains high, other sources will become profitable. Driving may be more expensive in the future, but demand for driving is fairly inelastic relative to the price of gasoline. So, no one alive is likely to see the end of "automotive culture".

Agreed. I read a source that stated we would have to dig a massive amount of earth the size of the state of Delaware each year to extract oil from shale and tar sands. If this is the case, it's clearly a dead end.

yes/ its a bit like putting on a bet and not knowing what your realy going to get for your money.

Perhaps the American English equivalent of a "chump"?

Chuckie

(I love using the word "chump" and can't wait to call someone a "punter" one day!)

How do you think ?
Biking as much as possible instead of driving makes perfect sense to me. Much more freedom.

I'm ashamed to be human.

I was thinking of a way to put it into words, but you did it for me. Thanks.

Perhaps the American English equivalent of a "chump"?

Chuckie

(I love using the word "chump" and can't wait to call someone a "punter" one day!)
I havnt heard of "chump" is that short for come in sucker?

Agreed. I read a source that stated we would have to dig a massive amount of earth the size of the state of Delaware each year to extract oil from shale and tar sands. If this is the case, it's clearly a dead end.


I think we have to invest in ways to research how to make nuclear power as safe as possible. Fusion and Fission reactors over time could make electricity cheap enough to power just about everything, as the potential energy in those sources is so massive. It would make oil almost worthless if a safe, viable nuclear plants could be built.

My commute is 22 miles round trip - 9 in, 13 home. I consider it just about perfect commuting distance - just enough to be a little workout in a reasonable time but not enough to be tiring or too time consuming.

"chump: a stupid or foolish person, a dolt"
--dictionary.com

I think we have to invest in ways to research how to make nuclear power as safe as possible. Fusion and Fission reactors over time could make electricity cheap enough to power just about everything, as the potential energy in those sources is so massive. It would make oil almost worthless if a safe, viable nuclear plants could be built.

The issue, as always, is one of funding. With a little research, solar and wind power could also be utilised to a much greater extent than they currently are. Unfortunately, various governments seem more interested in continuing to subsidise existing methods rather than investing in new technology.

Unfortunately, various governments seem more interested in continuing to subsidise existing methods rather than investing in new technology.

That is because most governments are funded (and often bribed) by those who make billions from the status quo.