Folding Bikes - Big Apples or new FS ride?

Hey everyone. I’d like to do something about my Dahon Yeah and its ability to take some of the rough asphalt of downtown DC. I also do a fair number of curb drops on occasion. I’m considering installing Schwalbe Big Apples b/c I’ve heard some good things about them and their cushiness. The Yeah currently has the stock Kenda kwests 20x1.5.

Also, I’d like to keep my fenders since they do a great job of keeping rain, mud and grime off me. I have a question as to whether the Big Apples will clear my fender set up. Here’s an old pix of the back tire so you can tell me whether the Big Apples will not rub the fender:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EqgpUrE0IEs/RxA6OuUEBXI/AAAAAAAAACU/0aFeg357TDk/s1600-h/yeah3.JPG

The other option is to buy a full suspension folding bike like one of Downtube’s full suspension models. I once rode a friends specialty sports store full suspension MTB (not a walmart bike but not a LBS bike) and the ride was unbelievably cushy. Can these Big apples approximate a full suspension folder?

I have Big Apples stock on my Dahon Speed P8. Can they reproduce full suspension? No. Do they handle the bumps well? Yes. They are fat and heavy, but great around here (I am in DC, too), especially after ice wedging has done a number on our roads. If you don't mind the weight of the tires, they really do ride nicely. You can't turn our sh*t roads into smooth sailing, but at least with the Big Apples, I feel the bumps a little less, and I feel confident hopping off curbs and over potholes that I'm not gonna pinch-flat.

Sadly Big Apples are no longer made.
They have been replaced with the Schwalbe Marathon.

Sadly Big Apples are no longer made.
They have been replaced with the Schwalbe Marathon.

No!

Are the Marathons as good, cushiness wise? Any other equivalents?

No!

Are the Marathons as good, cushiness wise? Any other equivalents?

They are not quite as cushy (I think), but they are more puncture resistant.

I have Big Apples (700c) on my bamboo bike and the ride is glass smooth.

I have Marathons (26 inch) on my single speed and the ride does have more buzz but is still a sweet ride. I don't know how much that is from the difference in tires or from the difference between a bamboo frame and a steel frame.

BTW I live down a dirt road.

i just put big apples on my boardwalk d7 and the stock fenders don't fit any more. =(
but the tires are great.

Sadly Big Apples are no longer made.
They have been replaced with the Schwalbe Marathon.
Yes? From where this news? It is still available at the web site, with no indication of having being discontinued?

Yes? From where this news? It is still available at the web site, with no indication of having being discontinued?

I tried to order some last week for a new build.
LBS said they were no longer available.

Just curious if a sprung saddle, or a Thudbuster would be options.

Wouldn’t help vibrations through your arms though. And you’re sort of locked into Dahons if you get the 34mm diameter Thudbuster.

WRT Big Apples, what will the Dahon Speed P8 use?

I tried to order some last week for a new build.
LBS said they were no longer available.

Your LBS is talking BS. They're not discontinued. And Big Apples are not in the same category as Marathons (with the possible exception on the 2" wide Marathon Supremes). http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/bicycle/tour_city/produktgruppe/produkt/index.php5?flash=1&ID_Produktgruppe=37&ID_Produkt=140&ID_Land=38&ID_Sprache=2&ID_Einsatzbereich=9&tn_mainPoint=Fahrrad&tn_subPoint=Tour/City
havm66z, you'll want 20x2.00...that's the standard fit size on a Speed P8.

Your LBS is talking BS.

Maybe his LBS forgot to tell Schwalbe (http://www.schwalbetires.com/node/1328)?

tcs

Your LBS is talking BS. They're not discontinued. And Big Apples are not in the same category as Marathons (with the possible exception on the 2" wide Marathon Supremes). http://www.schwalbe.com/gbl/en/bicycle/tour_city/produktgruppe/produkt/index.php5?flash=1&ID_Produktgruppe=37&ID_Produkt=140&ID_Land=38&ID_Sprache=2&ID_Einsatzbereich=9&tn_mainPoint=Fahrrad&tn_subPoint=Tour/City
havm66z, you'll want 20x2.00...that's the standard fit size on a Speed P8.

Good to know, thanks.

What I'm running on my SS are the two inch Marathons.

Given their popularity, not only are they not discontinued, but Schwalbe has come out with some new variants lately including the Liteskin Big Apple and the Super Moto.

They are considerably nice tires. If you have decent frame clearance and can work out a fender fix, I would give them a shot before considering a new bike if you enjoy your Dahon Yeah.

You can improve fender clearance by moving the fender stays on the back one to a more vertical position on the fender. This will in effect pull the fender away from the wheel. I did this on my Yeah to install BAs.

I like Maxxis Grifter bmx tyres. They're very light and just as cushy as Big Apples, though I don't do very long journeys so I don't know how they'd perform in those circumstances.

But as has been said previously fat tyres won't soak up much other than high frequency vibrations. The ride will be less jangly but potholes and the like will still be felt.

BAs are great.:love: Not only do I run them on two folding Dahons (20"X2.00 with fenders) but I have them on a old KHS tandem and my Surly Big Dummy.:D

Ciao,
o^o

"The Big Apple began the Balloonbike trend back in 2001. Comfortable cycling without the need for expensive technology. At the time that was a revolutionary idea. Today it is a growing trend..."

? revolutionary idea ?

But as has been said previously fat tyres won't soak up much other than high frequency vibrations. The ride will be less jangly but potholes and the like will still be felt.

I disagree. Since I started using Big Apples I fly off of curbs and over obstacles as hard and fast as I can because it's like landing on a pillow. Don't be afraid to lower the pressure. For some reason I always feel fastest and most comfortable just before the pressure gets too low to be efficient. In other words there seems to be a fine line between perfect and sluggish...between 25 and 30 psi for me.

At higher pressures I agree, but the reason Big Apples are praised over other wide tires is that they remain efficient down to very low pressures. I didn't believe it myself, even after riding on them, until I started drastically lowering the pressure.

The main disadvantages I see over a dedicated suspension is that tire performance can vary a lot with temperature/weather and tires are disposable. I think a dedicated suspension would be more consistent and cheaper in the long run if you use skinnier cheapie tires pumped up hard.

Makeinu, interesting post! So, would you say at 25-30 PSI with the BA's, they don't feel mushy/grippy/slow to you, as in any slower feeling than at a higher PSI? I am tempted to lower the stock 60PSI on mine after reading your post. Thing is, I feel so damned sluggish already. But a lot of that I think has been getting back into biking shape, which I finally am after 4 months.

Big Apples are best run at lower pressures, although they are capable of taking up to 55-70PSI depending on model. Big Apples will only provide good results at high pressure levels if you are putting extreme loads on them, such as using them on a laden cargo bike.

Here is a snippet from Sheldon Brown's website on tires:



Tire width and pressure are inextricably linked. It is a serious mistake to consider one independently of the other. Generally, wider tires call for lower pressures, narrower tires call for higher pressures.
And a snippet from the chart of Sheldon's estimations on good tire pressure:



Wheel load: 100kg: 50PSI (50mm tires, like Big Apple 2.0)
Wheel load: 70kg: 35PSI (50mm tires, like Big Apple 2.0)
(Full chart and more information available at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html)

Big Apples are designed to be run near the lower end of their pressure range. I suggest lighter riders inflating them near the very bottom of their rated pressure, around 25psi for the 2.35 models. This is my personal suggestion, but I have received nothing but good feedback from those I have suggested these tires to.

From the Schwalbe Balloonbike website:



The optimum for real Balloonbikers is between 1,5 and 2,5 bar. In order to have the correct inflation pressure it is better to use either a track-pump with a gauge or a service station air-line.

That's about 22-36PSI, I believe.

Makeinu, interesting post! So, would you say at 25-30 PSI with the BA's, they don't feel mushy/grippy/slow to you, as in any slower feeling than at a higher PSI? I am tempted to lower the stock 60PSI on mine after reading your post. Thing is, I feel so damned sluggish already. But a lot of that I think has been getting back into biking shape, which I finally am after 4 months.

I think the specifics depend on your personal weight and the temperature outside, but it's easy to try the whole spectrum of lower pressures by simply neglecting to pump. In my case I found that as the pressure dropped first I didn't feel any notable difference, then I saw an improvement in comfort (which made me faster because it enabled me to pedal through the rough stuff), and then it suddenly starts to get sluggish. When I feel that drop in efficiency at the end I just pump a little to get back to the sweet spot which seems to be around 25 psi for me.

The best way I can describe the sweet spot is that the contact point of the tire finds the path of least resistance in the pavement. Like a cyclist avoiding hills by taking a detour, I think at minimal pressure the wide tire allows the contact point to detour left or right down the smoothest portion of the pavement and if the rubber is soft, like on the Big Apples, it can do this without fighting against its own internal friction. I don't know if this is actually what's going on, but the bottom line for me is that I am going faster with less exertion and when I hit something hard like a pothole the tires just squash as if I were landing on a pillow. It doesn't feel mushy/grippy/slow at all.

I'd thought I was alone in using really low pressures, AFAIR lower than recommended on the Schwalbe website. At times I've run the front extremely soft, I'm not sure the exact pressure but possibly just under 20PSI.

I didn't like mine too soft as I would get squirming around corners. Also, too soft and I begin to bounce when pedalling. That's how I usually discover a flat - I begin bouncing. But I can't say what those pressures are.

jur
who is notoriously unrigorous at times.

OP here. Thanks for all the great responses.

There doesn't seem to be unanimity that the BAs are nearly equal to full suspension. I wonder if the weight of the riders can contribute to this? Some think that they are just "road dampeners" other are more enthusiastic. I'm 175lbs.

Based on the responses, I feel confident that I can solve the fender clearance problem, though. Decisions, decisions...

If you think about how much give a tyre could have and remain on the wheel it's never going to compare to 30+ mm of travel; I don't think anyone here is claiming that BAs do approximate full suspension, they're just saying that they're happy with the result.

Fat tyres are a more efficient suspension than purpose-made suspension, I think. There is no unsprung weight, you can choose the amount of suspension you need by tyre pressure and it is far cheaper.

Fat tyres are a more efficient suspension than purpose-made suspension, I think. There is no unsprung weight, you can choose the amount of suspension you need by tyre pressure and it is far cheaper.

...but you are wholly dependent on a low hysteresis tire formulation to reduce rolling resistance which surely must require some compromise in grip, durability, etc.

Plus it might not be cheaper in the long run if you're paying more for special "balloon suspension" tires year after year and I imagine a dedicated air suspension would have fewer loses in the cold compared to a tires or elastomers which cease being supple as the temperature drops.

I'm not sure ambient temperature variations has much of an influence... I think the range is too small to have a significant enough effect.

Replacing tyres over a long period... I got more than 10,000km on my rear BA, then I replaced it due to huge cuts from glass, but it still had some black rubber left, so that gives you an idea of the longevity. Plus no matter what tyre you run, they all have to be replaced balloon or not. BAs are not that much more expensive; and due to the fatter profile and more rubber over the width making the contact patch, it must necessarily last longer for the same rubber compound as a narrow tyre.

Contrast that against maintenance of suspension pivots and/or telescoping members... I don't think you're going to win. Plus the initial outlay of a suspension bike is usually a lot more, at least if you're going for some quality. Plus suspension is not that easy to adjust; you have to be able to get hold of different elastomers or springs and laboriously change them out.

I didn't like mine too soft as I would get squirming around corners. Also, too soft and I begin to bounce when pedalling. That's how I usually discover a flat - I begin bouncing. But I can't say what those pressures are.

That's when I pump my big apples back up, when I start bouncing while pedaling. That is around 20-25psi on my 26x2.0s.

Usually I pump to 50 psi and then let them sag. It takes a week or so for them to get down around 40psi and they hold that pressure for weeks/months before they start to go down more.

I'm not sure ambient temperature variations has much of an influence... I think the range is too small to have a significant enough effect.

I feel a huge difference and I saw some measurements online demonstrating the same phenomenon.



Replacing tyres over a long period... I got more than 10,000km on my rear BA, then I replaced it due to huge cuts from glass, but it still had some black rubber left, so that gives you an idea of the longevity. Plus no matter what tyre you run, they all have to be replaced balloon or not. BAs are not that much more expensive; and due to the fatter profile and more rubber over the width making the contact patch, it must necessarily last longer for the same rubber compound as a narrow tyre.

Contrast that against maintenance of suspension pivots and/or telescoping members... I don't think you're going to win. Plus the initial outlay of a suspension bike is usually a lot more, at least if you're going for some quality. Plus suspension is not that easy to adjust; you have to be able to get hold of different elastomers or springs and laboriously change them out.

Tru :thumb:

RE: Cost, durability and grip of Big Apples

Cost: Schwalbe Big Apples have the same MSRP as Schwalbe Marathons. They do not cost any more for their features. I suppose that you can find cheaper kevlar + reflective tires, but I have not found any which have provided the same return for me as the Marathon.

A pair of Bontrager Sattelites for instance lasted me all of 1,500km before biting the dust, and proved miserably poor for their puncture resistance.

Durability: Big Apples are also made of the same compound as the Marathon, Schwalbe Allround

From the Schwalbe website:


Allround: The Marathon Compound. It achieves everything expected of a Marathon tire: High durability, low rolling resistance and excellent wet grip.
Marathons are known to last quite a decent amount of time. I have experienced similar findings with the Big Apples, and have not known any riders personally who have worn theirs out yet, the longest user having put about 9,500km on their set so far.

Grip: Big Apples have a very large contact patch with the ground, good surface conformity and the suspension benefit allows them to spend more time in contact with the road. They have quite good grip, when used as designed (road)

Its worth noting that Big Apples share exactly the same compound and features as the Schwalbe Marathon in general. In my experience, they are just as reliable.

Yeah, but what if the Big Apples get discontinued? I'm not sure if the balloon tires of the past were as good, but nonetheless they fell out of fashion for a while.

I'm not normally one to worry about availability, but we're on the verge of the worst global depression in modern history and there's no telling how the retail landscape will change by the time it's over.

That is a valid concern. However, Big Apples have been popular enough that Schwalbe has just come out with 2 new variants, as I mentioned before (The Liteskin and Super Moto). I don't think a tire which is showcased on its own website and now has 2 new offshoots is on the line for being discontinued.

Schwalbe is pushing promotion on their Balloon bike line harder than any other bicycle product they produce. So long as Schwalbe is around, I can't see these tires disappearing in the near future.

I'm not an economist, nor do I hold knowledge of how Schwalbe is doing business wise, but they seem pretty popular over in Europe. They strike me as a manufacturer that has been around a while and has a good following.

Additionally, one could always make a transition to a different tire if need be. There are other companies out there doing fat street tires. None of which are as well rounded in features that I can think of, but they exist. Primo Comets, Maxxis Hookworms, and so on.

There isn't really any special technology behind a balloon tire than marketing, they're just high volume tires which have a good design for pinch flat resistance - something you'll get on a tire like the Hookworm.

I believe that you'll find it easier in 10 years to find another 2-2.35 inch wide 406mm tire than you will to find replacement springs for "XX" brand fork or shock, for instance.

If you were to speak of things in the sense of a poor economy, tire manufacturers are more likely to be around than suspension manufacturers - after all, bicycles need rubber, but they don't need suspension.

I have seen different reports on this can big apples be fitted to Bromptons and Mezzos with out modications? And is the 349 size availalbe in UK? thaks in advance

I have seen different reports on this can big apples be fitted to Bromptons and Mezzos with out modications? And is the 349 size availalbe in UK? thaks in advance

There is a Big Apple 349 size? Never heard of it.

That will be the problem then, I thought I seen US Bromptons with them on, but when I tried to order them Only 305 seemed availalbe in UK. I must be mistaken.

I'd be surprised if there was room for Big Apples on a Brompton anyway - certainly not if you have mudguards, which most do. On my S6L, there is no more than a few millimetres clearance with the standard Brompton "yellow" tyres. If I had bigger tyres, even if they fitted, my stubby bar ends would foul them when folded, and I believe the bar ends probably add more to my comfort than a softer ride would. Many people on the Brompton Talk Yahoo group (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BromptonTalk/) have tried Marathons though.

According to Schwalbetires (http://www.schwalbetires.com/node/1328) they're not made in 349mm.

Greenspeed Scorchers are supposed to be similarly supple balloon tires and are available in 349s. However, I get the impression that they are sportier than the Big Apples: less durable, more flat prone, etc.

I know some people are using them on Brompton's, do they fit with mudguards?

Thought I’d close the loop on this one. I got a FS Dowtube rather than the Big Apples. The cheapest I found for the tires was $70 + shipping. If I was going to spend almost $100 for tires, why not spend a couple hundred more for a brand new bike, I reasoned. Yan had the orange FS model on sale for $299. I’ve posted some pix and first impressions on the main Downtube thread which can be found here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=122760

If the new Downtube bike has kenda tyres on you will still need to replace them within a year of hard riding !