Advocacy & Safety - Amending Hand Signals to Include 3' Law ?

I was recently told by lawyer that extending ones left arm out to the side with three fingers extended is not actually a legal hand siganl. I think cyclist need a legal way to tell drivers they are nervous about being passed within the 3' distance when the cyclist is as close to the curb as practicable and safe. It makes sense that the arm out straight to the side would be confusing, but why not incorporate three fingers, possibly in an extended and contracted motion to flash, to the slow down signal ( same as stopping ). In reality the cyclist is likely slowing down if they are concerned with not being given ample room by a motorist, if only because they will likely be pedalling with less force in the distraction. As it sits, we have no legal way to communicate our right to being passed by 3' on the road short of a flash flag or a sign on our backs/bikes.

What are your thoughts ?
What's a better hand signal for, " 3' please " ?
How does this become a legal right ?

Thanks

When would I flash this hand sign, as a warning before the driver passes me or after he buzzes me and makes me uncomfortable? Once the driver passes, he isn't looking in the rearview to see if I'm OK.

Also, so few cyclists use the current approved hand signals (myself included- I only point left or point right and occasionally point straight ahead) and even fewer drivers pay attention or even know what we are doing that I doubt the usefulness of a "You ought to have given me 3 feet of clearance" sign. A law isn't going to change that, especially an unenforceable one like this proposal is.

Maybe you just need a pointy three foot stick taped to your handlebar. It would better serve your purpose than a new hand signal or a traditional hand signal that has become obscure in the mind of many drivers.

In my mind I would want to use it before they pass, I have a mirror and am well aware of whats happening behind me most of the time. I agree it's not ideal and motorists are going to be confused since they arent aware of what signals mean. Atleast it would be something legal when we have literally nothing now to alert them except for the slowing down signal. The flashing fingers may serve as an extra attention grabber, which may lead to a motorist slowing down and passing with more distance. I picture this as just another layer of legality to protect a cyclsits' rights to use the roads.
Fwiw, the 3' laws have already been enforced and prosecuted with video footage (not by me). I'm just looking at this as a way to increase awareness however slow and ineffectual it might be, it's significant if it saves one cyclist.

A motorist would think you're changing lanes or turning left.

^^^That is the simplest reason it won't work as described.

I would be willing to wager most drivers have no clue what hand signal means what. And for that pointy stick? I would rather have it on my rack than my handlebars...don't want them messing with my steering.

Aaron:)

A motorist would think you're changing lanes or turning left.

I think you've misunderstood. I want to incorporate the flashing or steady three finger extension (rider's choice) to the slow down hand signal, not to the turning left signal.

We could also legalize the one finger salute when they don't make the pass safely...

Aaron:)

The 3 foot laws do nothing to protect the safety of a bicyclist. When an accident/death happens due to this, nearly all the time, the offending driver is merely charged with "failure to yield".

Finger signals will not work for bike commuting. This isn't baseball.

Finger signals only rewards the driver for messing with bicyclists. It will encourage them to do the next thing to the next bicyclist they come across. Don't be stupid and flip off, just **IGNORE** it.

That sounds like a good way to lose and arm to a violator of the 3ft law.

We could also legalize the one finger salute when they don't make the pass safely...

Aaron:)

Beat me to it.:thumb:

Hand and arm signals are set in state statutes, and designed for car drivers (e.g., in most states all signals must be given with the left arm. Several states now allow cyclists to signal a right turn with a fully extended right arm, but this is a distinct minority)

Only 12 states out of 50 have a 3' (or other) passing rule in the first place, so this is far from being a universal thing.

Lastly, we have enough trouble getting motorists to see the cyclist in the first place, so trying to get them to see & figure how many fingers you're holding up at 35 mph is pretty absurd.

With all the initial opposition, I can really see the three finger salute gaining popularity. :) Is anyone familiar with the specifics of what it takes to have the legal hand signals amended ?

regardless of what this lawyer said, I'll continue to use a wide variety of nuanced motions to signal to motorists. screw the lawyer.

...As it sits, we have no legal way to communicate our right to being passed by 3' on the road short of a flash flag or a sign on our backs/bikes.

What are your thoughts ?
What's a better hand signal for, " 3' please " ?
How does this become a legal right ?

Thanks

Who cares if a method of communication is 'legal' or not?
There's already a 3ft law on the books and drivers don't know about it or ignore it.
How does adding a footnote onto it saying 'this gesture is a reminder of this law' increase driver awareness if they don't know about that law in the first place? and if that law is not enforced anyway?

Sounds like what you're really complaining about is, that when you wave with 3 fingers, driver's don't know how to interpret it. Having it defined on the traffic laws won't help that, what you really need is an awareness campaign to remind people of the existing laws.

Atleast it would be something legal when we have literally nothing now to alert them except for the slowing down signal. The flashing fingers may serve as an extra attention grabber, which may lead to a motorist slowing down and passing with more distance. I picture this as just another layer of legality to protect a cyclsits' rights to use the roads.
I recommend that you stop dreaming that cryptic signals that are far more likely to be misunderstood and confuse motorists will provide any protection of any kind to the arm/finger wagging cyclist. There probably isn't one in a hundred motorists who would even recognize a slow down hand signal from a cyclist and an even smaller percentage of motorists who would consider taking driving instructions from an arm waving cyclist or altering their speed because of it. Your 3 foot "signal" is guaranteed to have no positive effect other than wearing out your arm.

I can't even think of a legitimate use of a "slow down" hand signal from a cyclist to a following motorist. If a motorist isn't slowing down when he should (i.e. a cyclist is right in front of them and passing is not possible due to traffic conditions) what makes you think an obscure hand signal would change anything?

I'll put my hand out diagonally down with an open palm facing cars as if to say "don't drive in this spot." So far it seems to work well as I think drivers are more afraid to hit an out steached hand then your handlebars.

I like to lean closer and bang my fist on their roof. Scares the **** out of them, they'll think they hit you, and with a bit of luck take more care next time. Most motorists, contrary to popular belief, don't actually want to kill anyone, or knock anyone over. They are just living in motor car dreamworld, only dimly aware of things happening outside their armoured box. A near miss will give them an adrenaline rush that will do wonders for their concentration and awareness.

That sounds like a good way to lose and arm to a violator of the 3ft law.

This.

I'll put my hand out diagonally down with an open palm facing cars as if to say "don't drive in this spot." So far it seems to work well as I think drivers are more afraid to hit an out steached hand then your handlebars.

This is what I do too... with a motion like "stay back." I've found it works most of the time...

I wonder if I should put a little red octagon in the palm of my glove. ;)

This is what I do too... with a motion like "stay back." I've found it works most of the time...

I wonder if I should put a little red octagon in the palm of my glove. ;)

http://www.botachtactical.com/regl.html

This is what I do too... with a motion like "stay back." I've found it works most of the time...

How exactly does your hand signal "work" on motorists? What is the desired effect? Do you mean to say if it wasn't for your slow down hand signals the approaching car would not have slowed down and plowed into you?

What happens when your hand signal doesn't "work"? What is the result? Any different than when it does work?

I have a hard time imagining the traffic scenario where a cryptic slow down signal from a cyclist, even if recognized by the motorist in a timely manner, would be effective in altering a motorists behavior for the cyclist's benefit. Perhaps it "works" by fooling the cyclist into thinking he is somehow controlling the motorist through his hand signals.

The slow / stop hand signal works well for me. I find it most useful when entering blind curves on a narrow two lane road with no shoulder, just as a motorist is about to overtake me. I get well over 90% compliance. (the driver slows and waits behind me) If I don't signal and just let the motorist do the deciding on their own, more than half will pass even when they can't see around the curve. I'm not about to sit back and allow this to happen when I can prevent it.

A three foot hand signal is not only worthless, it would create a hole in the law. Next time someone gets run down, the driver will say "but he didn't signal he needed 3 feet of clearance, it's not my fault".

This is a joke? A signal for 3' - what is that supposed to mean?

Anyway, to ILTB - I find the best use of the slow/stop signal to be when approaching a stop sign, especially a 4-way. X-traffic drivers who see this signal can gain confidence that you are actually planning on stopping per the law and then don't hesitate their turn or ROW leading to everyone getting thru the intersection more smoothly.

Al

This is a joke? A signal for 3' - what is that supposed to mean?

Anyway, to ILTB - I find the best use of the slow/stop signal to be when approaching a stop sign, especially a 4-way. X-traffic drivers who see this signal can gain confidence that you are actually planning on stopping per the law and then don't hesitate their turn or ROW leading to everyone getting thru the intersection more smoothly.

Al
I find it hard to believe a large majority of motorists would recognize what the law abiding bicyclist was trying to indicate, and a good percentage of those safety minded motorists would still wait to verify that cyclist actually does stop.

I can see how such a signal, if understood and trusted by the x-traffic drivers could smooth traffic flow. However, do you trust motorists enough to actually do what their turn signals indicate, to pull out in front of them at stop signs prior to the motorist actually starting to turn? Me, I wait to see the car actually turning before trusting my life to a signal misused or used improperly by so many vehicle operators.

Anyhow, the scenario you describe is hardly a boon to safety, but rather just a courtesy if it is actually understood by the drivers.

I find it hard to believe a large majority of motorists would recognize what the law abiding bicyclist was trying to indicate, and a good percentage of those safety minded motorists would still wait to verify that cyclist actually does stop.

I can see how such a signal, if understood and trusted by the x-traffic drivers could smooth traffic flow. However, do you trust motorists enough to actually do what their turn signals indicate, to pull out in front of them at stop signs prior to the motorist actually starting to turn? Me, I wait to see the car actually turning before trusting my life to a signal misused or used improperly by so many vehicle operators.

Anyhow, the scenario you describe is hardly a boon to safety, but rather just a courtesy if it is actually understood by the drivers.

I don't do it for safety. I do it to get thru 4-way stop faster (without breaking traffic law.) Since I started I've never had a motorist wave me on or stop when they shouldn't. Drivers rightly don't trust most signals from other drivers, but a cyclist approaching a stop sign and giving the stop signal does increase confidence (but not certainty) that they are planing on stopping. Moan about it as you will, but in my experience it works well.

I don't do it for safety. I do it to get thru 4-way stop faster (without breaking traffic law.) Since I started I've never had a motorist wave me on or stop when they shouldn't. Drivers rightly don't trust most signals from other drivers, but a cyclist approaching a stop sign and giving the stop signal does increase confidence (but not certainty) that they are planing on stopping. Moan about it as you will, but in my experience it works well.

I don't moan about it; I just don't waste my time using cryptic signals that would serve no purpose for me. If others find them useful, for whatever reason it is OK by me. I only advise that cyclists not make their own safety dependent on others interpreting improvised or little understood hand signals normally seen only in the darkest most obscure corners of the traffic code (or the Internet.)

I don't moan about it; I just don't waste my time using cryptic signals that would serve no purpose for me. If others find them useful, for whatever reason it is OK by me. I only advise that cyclists not make their own safety dependent on others interpreting improvised or little understood hand signals normally seen only in the darkest most obscure corners of the traffic code (or the Internet.)

The stop signal is one of the least cryptic and also well known of hand signals. It beats waving on other drivers, nodding, etc. which are far more easily mis-interpreted. It takes no extra time to perform and I only do it if there is x-traffic approaching. I wouldn't do it if I didn't find it beneficial. Many cyclists complain that x-traffic stops when it shouldn't, I don't have this problem. I too would not advise any one to rely on it for any safety benefit.

Al

Many cyclists complain that x-traffic stops when it shouldn't, I don't have this problem.
I don't complain when x-traffic stops when it shouldn't, (unless I am behind that driver) so I too have no problem with such drivers at intersections.

I'm thinking of putting the orange penant flag horizontally on my rack such that it sticks out three feet (assuming the 3-foot passing law gets passed in the current legislative session here in Texas).

I'm thinking of putting the orange penant flag horizontally on my rack such that it sticks out three feet (assuming the 3-foot passing law gets passed in the current legislative session here in Texas).

Yup. I'd use something stiff on the end of the stick with/instead of a "pennant" since a pennant will be swept backwards by the wind and then be less visible. Maybe even something with a few Watts of LED shining along it.

Anyway, to ILTB - I find the best use of the slow/stop signal to be when approaching a stop sign, especially a 4-way. X-traffic drivers who see this signal can gain confidence that you are actually planning on stopping per the law and then don't hesitate their turn or ROW leading to everyone getting thru the intersection more smoothly.

You are apparently SUperbikeman. I would not be able to stay straight or even upright if I removed a hand from the handlebar while approaching a stop sign or light, either braking or stop-starting in a line of traffic.