Folding Bikes - Bike Friday tikit vs NWT

Hi all,

I'm considering buying a folder. Ideally I'd like something that folds like a tikit, but is suitable for touring and has hub gearing. I guess the season tikit is what I'm looking for except that it doesn't seem to be as good as the NWT for touring. Can anybody answer the following:

1. Would it be possible for BF to build a season tikit with 20 inch wheels?

2. Is it possible to use a hub (preferably alfine) with a NWT without the need for a tensioner?

3. Is the tikit at all suitable for touring i.e. long tours of several hundred kms sometimes on rough roads carrying panniers?

4. Is the any difference in build quality/durability between a tikit and NWT?

5. Regarding foldability how much less compact and more awkward to carry is a folded NWT compared to a folded tikit when carrying on trains, buses etc?

I'm sending this to BF, but posting here in case anybody on the forums has any experience of a tikit and/or NWT.

Many thanks!

please post back with whatever Bike Friday tells you!

1. Would it be possible for BF to build a season tikit with 20 inch wheels?

2. Is it possible to use a hub (preferably alfine) with a NWT without the need for a tensioner?

3. Is the tikit at all suitable for touring i.e. long tours of several hundred kms sometimes on rough roads carrying panniers?

4. Is the any difference in build quality/durability between a tikit and NWT?

5. Regarding foldability how much less compact and more awkward to carry is a folded NWT compared to a folded tikit when carrying on trains, buses etc?

I'm sending this to BF, but posting here in case anybody on the forums has any experience of a tikit and/or NWT.

Many thanks!

2. ... the chain will drop if you fold the bike.

3. ... you will have to use a trailer since the rear rack isn't tall enough for standard panniers. And you can do a search on the effect of tire size.

5. ... I have a NWT and putzed around with a tikit. The tikit is much easier since it can be rolled and it keeps its form much better. But if you use the appropriately sized BF carry bag carrying the NWT isn't terrible.

There was a recent thread in the YAK group that discussed NWT versus tikit for touring.

please post back with whatever Bike Friday tells you!

Will do...




2. ... the chain will drop if you fold the bike.

3. ... you will have to use a trailer since the rear rack isn't tall enough for standard panniers. And you can do a search on the effect of tire size.

5. ... I have a NWT and putzed around with a tikit. The tikit is much easier since it can be rolled and it keeps its form much better. But if you use the appropriately sized BF carry bag carrying the NWT isn't terrible.

There was a recent thread in the YAK group that discussed NWT versus tikit for touring.

Thanks for that info. Will check out the YAk thread

Any idea why re no. 2 the chain will drop off a NWT when folded if there is no tensioner while this is not an issue with the tikit? I guess the tikit has something in the design that prevents this. Maybe BF will tell me. Would be great if the foldability of the tikit could be transferred to BF's other models

Any idea why re no. 2 the chain will drop off a NWT when folded if there is no tensioner while this is not an issue with the tikit? I guess the tikit has something in the design that prevents this. Maybe BF will tell me. Would be great if the foldability of the tikit could be transferred to BF's other models

Because the distance between the rear hub and crank changes (does not change) when folding on the NWT (tikit).

2. Is it possible to use a hub (preferably alfine) with a NWT without the need for a tensioner?

3. Is the tikit at all suitable for touring i.e. long tours of several hundred kms sometimes on rough roads carrying panniers?

4. Is the any difference in build quality/durability between a tikit and NWT?

5. Regarding foldability how much less compact and more awkward to carry is a folded NWT compared to a folded tikit when carrying on trains, buses etc?


I can help a bit with these ones.

2. Not really. There are vertical dropouts on the NWT, so first you would need near perfect spacing to go without a tensioner, and then as some others have mentioned the chain would drop each time you fold it.

3. It would seem so. Bike Friday does market a Tikit configuration for touring, and there are some stories available on-line from people who have used their bikes in such manners. With the BTO options, Bike Friday can configure your ticket to use the thicker, stronger stem (and possibly frame tubing) if you have concerns.

There's a story in the Summer 2008 Foldable Flyer for instance of someone using a Tikit to do some good off-road exploring in Thailand.

(From what I understand, the large Tikit uses some thicker components, Bike Friday can place them on any size of Tikit at request)

4. Quality is the same: excellent. Durability wise, the NWT is designed from the ground up to be a touring bike, and it does not have a folding stem, which is one less potential problem.

5. I can't comment on size, but in regards to convenience the Tikit folds very fast, sticks together and folds in one piece which rolls on the ground quite easily.

Contrastingly, the NWT does not fold as fast, the stem assembly comes out entirely when folding and is a loose piece to deal with, and an easy pack NWT will also have the seatpost come all the way out.

(I have also heard that Bike Friday may be planning a rack for the Tikit which will accept larger panniers, you should ask them about that when you make your call - so far, its only a rumor to me, but it may be true)

Would be great if the foldability of the tikit could be transferred to BF's other models
Design choices involve compromise; that's just how it goes. The sooner you recognize this, the happier you will be with your final choice.

I think you need to decide which qualities are more important. If you're going to use it frequently to tour and/or need a better ride, NWT. If you aren't going to tour very often and will commute on smooth roads most of the time, Tikit.

Or if you really do a lot of both, spend a little less on an NWT, and buy a cheap folder for commuting. This also lets you use the NWT as a backup bike for your commute.

Separately, I've never really seen a huge advantage to the Tikit's fold. The Tikit may save you 10 seconds and roll better, but it's just as bulky as the NWT:

Bike Friday NWT, 20" wheels = 12" x 33" x 34" (13,464 cu in)
Bike Friday Tikit, 16" wheels = 15" x 24" x 35" (12,600 cu in)
Dahon Speed P8, 20" wheels = 13" x 25" x 32" (10,400 cu in)
Brompton = 9.8" x 21" x 22" (4,527 cu in)

Separately, I've never really seen a huge advantage to the Tikit's fold. The Tikit may save you 10 seconds and roll better, but it's just as bulky as the NWT:

Bike Friday NWT, 20" wheels = 12" x 33" x 34" (13,464 cu in)
Bike Friday Tikit, 16" wheels = 15" x 24" x 35" (12,600 cu in)
Dahon Speed P8, 20" wheels = 13" x 25" x 32" (10,400 cu in)
Brompton = 9.8" x 21" x 22" (4,527 cu in)

If you can't see the advantage then you must be the last man on earth using buttoned over laced shoes.

Also those volume calculations are all way off because none of the bikes are rectangular:
http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/c/ci/circumscribed_circles.svg.png

Hardtail,

How about one of these bad boys?
http://www.pacific-cycles.com/UserFiles/Image/Product/DSC_0484s.jpg
http://www.pacific-cycles.com/UserFiles/Image/Product/DSC_0487s%281%29.jpg

20" wheels, rolls like a tikit, and surely must ride better than NWT. Drawbacks:
-aluminum frame
-only one size
-still no internal hub
-availability?

:: paging jur and BruceMetras ::
:: paging jur and BruceMetras ::

Although I don't imagine it would be too difficult to equip a season tikit with 20" wheels. Just:
1. move the rear wheel further back in those fancy dropouts
2. swap the front fork with something from a NWT or similar
Hmmm, bottom bracket would be higher, but I'm still intrigued.

If you can't see the advantage then you must be the last man on earth using buttoned over laced shoes.
I'm not saying there is zero advantage to the Tikit. I'm saying that a) most of the advantages touted for the Tikit are fairly strong when compared to a BF travel bike, but weaker when compared to, for example, a Brompton or perhaps a Dahon (far from my favorites, by the way). And b) the main advantages are folding speed and rolling, not compact size. The Tikit can also be a little pricey. As a result, I don't see what the fuss is about.



Also those volume calculations are all way off because none of the bikes are rectangular.
Riiiiight. I guess it's silly of me to go by the standard method that every folding bike manufacturer is publicly using to describe the size of their bikes. :rolleyes:

Those are figures BF put out, not ones I'm arbitrarily choosing; I have no problem using them to make an evaluation. If BF ever chooses to publish a set of volume measurements based on polyhedric shapes, I'd be happy to use those figures instead.

Riiiiight. I guess it's silly of me to go by the standard method that every folding bike manufacturer is publicly using to describe the size of their bikes.


You're not.

Bike companies don't describe the volume of their bikes so far as I can tell. They describe the maximum extent bounding box to fit the bike, because people need to know if the bike will fit into rectangular structures like trunks or closets. Converting this into volume is a bit shameful, especially when the results hardly match up with comparing the bikes in person (in my opinion).

I've had both a Tikit and NWT with an internal gear hub Nexus 8. I'd say the NWT is more like a travel bike where you pack it up for a trip, unpack it and ride for a week or so, and then repack it for the trip home. If you plan to fold the bike up every day, then consider the Tikit. That's the major decision, everything else can be worked out.

Bike companies don't describe the volume of their bikes so far as I can tell. They describe the maximum extent bounding box to fit the bike, because people need to know if the bike will fit into rectangular structures like trunks or closets. Converting this into volume is a bit shameful, especially when the results hardly match up with comparing the bikes in person (in my opinion).

I don't even think that's why they give those numbers (to describe the bounding box) because one can often make a folder fit in different boxes by performing different steps (since each step usually decreases one dimension at the expense of another). I think it's primarily to give scale to photos.

Bike Friday replied to my questions as follows:

1. no
2. yes, but you'd need to pop the chain off the chainring to fold it
3. it won't take rear panniers at present and the most rugged tire is the 1-3/8" Marathon, so if that fulfills the minimum criteria for you, sure. You might want to use this as a data point: http://www.bikefriday.com/alvinlee/thailand07 -- those are ROUGH roads.
4. nope
5. size isn't much of a difference but awkwardness is notable-- the tikit clips together where the NWT is all loosey-goosey. And you can wheel the tikit around by its front wheel.


Am going to have a think about this and take it from there. Leaning towards the NWT. No immediate need for a folder though, so not going to hurry. Going to have to accept that a one-size-fits-all solution may not exist

Thanks for all the replies!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/3241211619_185841f436_b.jpg

I've got both a Tikit and a NWT (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vikapproved/sets/72157604001951627/). The NWT is a proper touring bike. The Tikit is a commuter bike you can tour on. You can make either bike work for you.

Personally now that I have a NWT I don't see myself touring on a Tikit. I can pack the NWT in a small space for flying/buses and I don't envisage any trips where the quick fold of the Tikit would make it a better choice for a fully loaded tour.

pardon my ignorance - what is NWT ????

thanks,
vic

forget it.. i found it. new world tourist bike friday....

pardon my ignorance - what is NWT ????

thanks,
vic

It's a Bike Friday New World Tourist - one of Bike Friday's models

btw Vik I like your NWT...a lot! Maybe would prefer a different colour but love those clean lines. How is the Shimano hub? I've got a Rohloff on my regular touring and I like it, but if I go with a BF I want to avoid the cost. I reckon an Alfine or Nexus should be fine.

Vik, that is a great shot. I'm drooling....

Al

So far the Nexus 8 has been great, but I haven't done any loaded touring yet since it's the winter in Canada. I've been abusing an Alfine on my Pugsley and that hub has held up fine so far.