Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - street fixed vs. track bike

is there a huge difference between the new "street fixes" that are being made by Specialized, KHS, Surly, etc. and designated track bikes? I know that some of these have drillings for brakes and some even come with the flip flop hub, and i now the Langster has that sloping top tube, but are there any other major differences in geometry, or is it just as tight on some of these as on designated track bikes? A friend said she rode the KHS flight 100 and it felt no different than riding her road bike.

a true track bike will have a higher bottom bracket than a road frame. typically a track bike will have more aggressive geometry to allow for more responsive handling, such as a steeper headtube angle, shorter stays, low raked fork, etc... some people refer to the handling of a track bike on the road as "twitchie". some frames are more agressive than others. frames such as the bianchi pista, khs flight, surly steamroller, are all track geometry, but not overly aggressive.

also, it's important to note...when a bike like the langster says, "sloping top tube" , it's different than a track bike saying "sloping top tube"...on the langster, the top tube slopes down as it goes back towards the seat post...with a track bike that's sole purpose is track racing, "sloping top tube" can mean the tube slopes down as it goes towards the head tube...big difference.


personally I like a straight top tube.

the langster sloping top tube along with all the road bikes with the same sloped top tube is known as a compact road frame.

i also prefer a traditional road geometry (not a sloped top tube) or track frames sloping tube. the compact geometry makes it look like a MTB..

"i also prefer a traditional road geometry (not a sloped top tube)"

careful; a compact frame can (usually does) possess a traditional road geometry. The frames internal angles may differ, but the angles relative to the road and rider remain constant.

having said that, I know what you meant, and I agree the compact geometry is less pleasing to the (my) eye.

i really like the KHS flite100. it's gotta be one of the sexiest complete track bikes available, even the yellow ones are pretty hot looking...but they come nowhere near the old orange design. the top tube on the KHS is really super short, and it IS a pretty aggressive and tight frame. if i could find an orange one in a 52cm or smaller, i'd paint it black and be all over it.

i thought the '04s were gonna be dark blue or something...haven't seen any in person yet, but something tells me they lied.

Yeah, there is just something so goddam sexy about a forward sloped toptube. Just looks...aggressive

Tell me about it :) I love my Fort, but it is perhaps a bit too aggresive for my taste. It's growing on me though. Basically, ride a regular geared bike, well-fitted of course, and see how you like it. If it's boring and slow, go for a more track-specific geometry (steeper angles, shorter wheelbase). If it scares the dying nightdarks out of you, stick with something longer and more relaxed.

a true track bike will have a higher bottom bracket than a road frame. typically a track bike will have more aggressive geometry to allow for more responsive handling, such as a steeper headtube angle, shorter stays, low raked fork, etc... some people refer to the handling of a track bike on the road as "twitchie". some frames are more agressive than others. frames such as the bianchi pista, khs flight, surly steamroller, are all track geometry, but not overly aggressive.


what's meant by twitchie?

what's meant by twitchie?

More sensitive...meaning that the bike will turn more sharply when you turn the bars. The steeper the head tube angle and the shorter the rake, the more twitchy the bike is.

what's meant by twitchie?

very quick handling. steeper headtube angle = quicker response to input...or, not so much quicker as more efficient...of course, much of this depends on fork rake as well...you could have an 80 degree head tube angle, but a fork with 50mm of rake would cancel it out pretty quickly...or just yield some very interesting results, handling-wise...

quick handling is also the result of a shorter wheelbase, which track bikes tend to have. a shorter top tube, will bring the front wheel closer to the bottom bracket. as an example, say i ride a frame with a 50cm seat tube. most manufacturers make their 50cm frames with 52cm top tubes, but a track frame, built just for me, might have a 50cm x 50cm geometry, because that would be what i want, to make the handling "twitchier," and the ride more comfortable for me. also, track frames tend to have shorter chainstays, or the adjustability to move the rear wheel right up against the seat tube. all of this results in a bike that has a shorter wheelbase than a standard road bike. of course there are some exceptions, and blah blah blah...but that's the basic "gist" of it.

In addition to all that being said:
- track bikes, because of steep head angle and lesser fork rake tend to cause toe overlap. This should be a conern if you are riding on the street, since it affects you when you least expect it (and with potentially dangerous consequences).
- higher bottom bracket means your seat has to be up high. Relatively the handlebars are lower. If you are coming from a road background, you will notice this (not a major concern though).
- I think Steamroller has more relaxed geomety (compared to all out track bike) except for fork rake. You could get the fork from their street bike (pacer?)

Finally, twitchy handling means overly responsive (read 'bad handling') for street use. Track bikes are good for track where people go straight most of the time and not have to deal with sharp turns. Unless you are trying to prove a point, or that you like the look of track bike (or any of the million reasons not associated with street handling) stick with road geometry if you are going to ride it on the road (common sense).

"i also prefer a traditional road geometry (not a sloped top tube)"

careful; a compact frame can (usually does) possess a traditional road geometry. The frames internal angles may differ, but the angles relative to the road and rider remain constant.

having said that, I know what you meant, and I agree the compact geometry is less pleasing to the (my) eye.

interesting...i was not aware that a road frame can have compact geometry without the sloping tube. you learn something new everyday....

so how can one tell if it is a compact or traditional frame with a non-sloped top tube?

personally I think riding a track bike on the street is fine...and fun. I like the angles and the twitchy handling and all that...would I ride it on a long touring ride? no...but then again I don't like to ride super long distances (like over 65 miles...that's long to me anyways)...I just like to ride around, have fun, hang out with friends, etc etc.

interesting...i was not aware that a road frame can have compact geometry without the sloping tube. you learn something new everyday....

so how can one tell if it is a compact or traditional frame with a non-sloped top tube?

The compact geometry is not the issue per se, more so the angles that are used in each enviroment (track v. road) A compact track frame will still have the track angles, just more compact as to tube length. Same goes on the road side of things. I agree with you that compact geometry has to have the sloping tube and short tubes (backsloping in general). Then there are those evil temptress' going by the name of pursuit frames. More than one on this board is being tempted......

Dave

Man, I can't believe that people are still fooled by the term 'Compact geometry'

My understanding, is that Giant wanted some marketable difference when it entered the road scene in a big way back whenever, and in it's infinite wisdom it decided to offer it's road bikes with a sloping top tube and make them only available in 4 or 5 sizes.

I'm not sure what the advantage was for the consumer, but people seemed to like it. "I get to try and fit on an ill fitting bike, get five sizes to chose from instead of 10, and I get a sloping top tube? Wow. Cool. Gimme more, I can't get enough of this 'Compact Geometry' sh1t."

My theory is is that the only thing compact about it was the amount of brain capacity utilised by bikeshop owners who now only had to remember 5 sizes. "It comes in small, medium, large and xtra large. hrmm. You look like a large."
Either that or it referred to Giants' warehouse inventory, I'm not sure.

So yeah, what was the question again? *laugh*

"interesting...i was not aware that a road frame can have compact geometry without the sloping tube. you learn something new everyday"

L_I, you're right, a CG will always have a sloping tube. I was trying to say that the angles of the tubes relative to each other is irrelevant), its the angles of the seat and headtubes relative to the BB and ground the is important. Any given compact frame could have either a road, track, TT, or Tri geometry.

not to break from all the crazy angle geometry trigonometry talk, but a lot of track bikes don't have water bottle mounts or other amenities. Try pulling a bottle out of your messenger pack while doing a 18mph club ride in chicago! I usually wear a camelbak for long rides, but I added a cage to my seatpost for ragbrai.

jeff

Momovelo has some trick h-bar waterbottle mounts for those looking...

165 - that's a pretty cool way to haul water. anything's better than trying to grab a bottle while your legs are spinning a million mph. that's why I like the seat mount also clear up my handlebars

very quick handling. steeper headtube angle = quicker response to input...or, not so much quicker as more efficient...of course, much of this depends on fork rake as well...you could have an 80 degree head tube angle, but a fork with 50mm of rake would cancel it out pretty quickly...or just yield some very interesting results, handling-wise...

quick handling is also the result of a shorter wheelbase, which track bikes tend to have. a shorter top tube, will bring the front wheel closer to the bottom bracket. as an example, say i ride a frame with a 50cm seat tube. most manufacturers make their 50cm frames with 52cm top tubes, but a track frame, built just for me, might have a 50cm x 50cm geometry, because that would be what i want, to make the handling "twitchier," and the ride more comfortable for me. also, track frames tend to have shorter chainstays, or the adjustability to move the rear wheel right up against the seat tube. all of this results in a bike that has a shorter wheelbase than a standard road bike. of course there are some exceptions, and blah blah blah...but that's the basic "gist" of it.

onetin, we went over this before...a shorter rake makes for a longer trail, and therefore, a slower handling bike. the way to determine trail is to shoot a line down the headtube, then drop a plumb-bob from the hub. the distance between those two spots on the ground is the trail. as a result, a steeper headtube needs a shorter rake to keep the handling from being too twitchy. the specialized, roubaix, however, has a very lax headtube, but a 50mm rake fork, for neutral handling.

what is the use of this? wheelbase, which you were close on. a specialized roubaix, while it has a trail close to the track bike's, has a longer wheelbase, and thus a more stable ride. ok?

I just didn't want misinformation circulating...

Wheels - some track-specific wheelsets are not recommended for street use. These are generally high end stuff. They are designed for the nice smooth surface of a track and will not stand the beating of street riding.

has anyone moved from a frame with 74d headtube and 75d seat tube to a frame with 74/74? is the difference all that noticable? i just want to get my arms a tiny bit more stretched out without needing a longer stem, but i don't want to lose too much twitch.

i would suspect that the one degree change in seat tube will vary in it's a effect depending on the seat tube length...

what bar and stem are you running? perhaps if you're running a drop bar, one with greater reach might help.

']Yeah, there is just something so goddam sexy about a forward sloped toptube. Just looks...aggressive

Worst idea ever, horizontal is the way to go.

For a moment it was like the greatest hits -- all the old posters. Then I realized this thread was way old. Still, it was nice to see the names. Thanks visitor (how's that Bob J coming along?).

i would suspect that the one degree change in seat tube will vary in it's a effect depending on the seat tube length...

what bar and stem are you running? perhaps if you're running a drop bar, one with greater reach might help.

the stem is a 110 thomson elite road. the bars are profile bullhorns for street (and on the smaller frame, i'm all the way out at the tips with my saddle all the way back on a setback thomson post). i've been trying different track drops out for training. ones with exaggerated drop/reach tend to feel more comfortable. my torso and arms are pretty lanky. my thinking was that slightly relaxing the ST angle but still keeping it "track-enough" should help. it's for a frame that's coming anyway, so i guess i'll know soon enough, but i was just curious if anyone had any anecdotes to share.

For a moment it was like the greatest hits -- all the old posters. Then I realized this thread was way old. Still, it was nice to see the names. Thanks visitor (how's that Bob J coming along?).
wasn't it great when there was actual relevant discussion and questions and substantiated knowledge?

Thanks visitor (how's that Bob J coming along?).

that's what i'm trying to predict, cos i'm certainly lost in the sauce as far as an ETA goes. i'm trying to imagine it into my daily rides and conjur it up thru black magic.

have you heard anything about yours? maybe they'll travel together.

that's what i'm trying to predict, cos i'm certainly lost in the sauce as far as an ETA goes. i'm trying to imagine it into my daily rides and conjur it up thru black magic.

have you heard anything about yours? maybe they'll travel together.

Mine was ready and fitted with a headset last week. They're supposed to (or have) ship it this week. I was surprised when I got the email since I expected another two weeks to wait. But then again, I bug Paul often and I've been emailing with him since last summer so I've ingrained myself.

I'd shoot an email over there and check, you know, just to be sure it's not sitting in a corner just waiting to be sent out and ridden...

Isotope - those were the days.

if you ignore the static some good stuff pops through!

what colors did you go for in the jackson?

the stem is a 110 thomson elite road. the bars are profile bullhorns for street (and on the smaller frame, i'm all the way out at the tips with my saddle all the way back on a setback thomson post). i've been trying different track drops out for training. ones with exaggerated drop/reach tend to feel more comfortable. my torso and arms are pretty lanky. my thinking was that slightly relaxing the ST angle but still keeping it "track-enough" should help. it's for a frame that's coming anyway, so i guess i'll know soon enough, but i was just curious if anyone had any anecdotes to share.


are you getting a longer top tube on this new frame? i too am a lanky jerk and also prefer a slightly smaller frame for my height. thus, i typically make up for it with a longer stem. i go for a general 70ish cm with combined top tube and stem length... i just went from a 120 stem to a 130 on my road bike, which was giving me fit issues along the lines of the ones you described, and i didn't notice a loss of aggressive handing after the change. of course, i also swapped bars and went with ones with little less reach. well, hopefully your new frame will help and give you more insight on the fitment issues...

if you ignore the static some good stuff pops through!

what colors did you go for in the jackson?

For me, I went with celeste cosmos which is a baby blue, white decals, silver lug pinstriping. It's a tribute to my first single gear bike, Gretchen who met her untimely demise when Jesus hit me with his car (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=76169&highlight=jesus+hit+car). She was of a similar colour and with gold pinstripes instead. I loved her so.

http://dcc.absenter.org/foto/misc/gretchen-new.jpg

Visitor, what are you getting?

if you ignore the static some good stuff pops through!

what colors did you go for in the jackson?

i went for metallic viola chiaro (a very metallic super-light pinkish/grey violet) with some metallic pink(the paul dropouts, fork crown and some seat tube stripes) and white pin striping (on the chainstays where the dropout and bottom bracket paint hits the chrome and on the seat tube stripes).

absntr, i'll call them again. it's really been forever at this point. it'll be exciting to see how you build yours up at least. are those new campy rims for it?

deciding on a bob jackson is totally easy... deciding on the color is impossibly impossible! i've designed probably half a dozen in my head... they need to have a feature on the site where you can try out all the combos on the track frame!

are you getting a longer top tube on this new frame? i too am a lanky jerk and also prefer a slightly smaller frame for my height. thus, i typically make up for it with a longer stem. i go for a general 70ish cm with combined top tube and stem length... i just went from a 120 stem to a 130 on my road bike, which was giving me fit issues along the lines of the ones you described, and i didn't notice a loss of aggressive handing after the change. of course, i also swapped bars and went with ones with little less reach. well, hopefully your new frame will help and give you more insight on the fitment issues...

yeah. this pretty much sounds like what i went for. the top tube is longer by a couple of cm. the seattube is a bit longer. and the bottom bracket is slightly higher. for some reason, i'm really sensitive to stem length and anything longer than 110 feels sloppy regardless of frame size. i'm sure that's partially psychosomatic though.

i went for metallic viola chiaro (a very metallic super-light pinkish/grey violet) with some metallic pink(the paul dropouts, fork crown and some seat tube stripes) and white pin striping (on the chainstays where the dropout and bottom bracket paint hits the chrome and on the seat tube stripes).

absntr, i'll call them again. it's really been forever at this point. it'll be exciting to see how you build yours up at least. are those new campy rims for it?

Mmmm, should be tasty.

Mine will be as euro as can be, as much Campy as possible and I managed to find a Raleigh stem on ebay in keeping with the British theme. I could have gone Cinelli but I didn't want to go through the whole 26.4 debacle again and I'll be conceding to Nitto drops but I might switch out to a Deda Pista I already have. We shall see.

How's yours going to be set up? You said you had all the parts right?

Mmmm, should be tasty.

Mine will be as euro as can be, as much Campy as possible and I managed to find a Raleigh stem on ebay in keeping with the British theme. I could have gone Cinelli but I didn't want to go through the whole 26.4 debacle again and I'll be conceding to Nitto drops but I might switch out to a Deda Pista I already have. We shall see.

How's yours going to be set up? You said you had all the parts right?

that'll make for a pretty gorgeous ride. mine's sort of the polar opposite aesthetic. i went for 1 1/8 threadless, so:

-king headset
-black thomson elite road stem, black bullhorns with pink fizik wrap, still settling on track drops to be wrapped with pink tioga cloth
-black sugino 75s with zen chainring pink crank bros quattros
-phil bottom bracket
-black thomson setback seatpost
-pink fizik arione saddle
-pink stelvios on pink aeroheads w/black spokes and pink 32h HF track/track phils dura ace and phil cogs
-pink KMC chain (trackstar gifted it to me with the wheelset)

your bike sounds like it's going to be sweet.

that'll make for a pretty gorgeous ride. mine's sort of the polar opposite aesthetic. i went for 1 1/8 threadless, so:

-king headset
-black thomson elite road stem, black bullhorns with pink fizik wrap, still settling on track drops to be wrapped with pink tioga cloth
-black sugino 75s with zen chainring pink crank bros quattros
-phill bottom bracket
-black thomson setback seatpost
-pink fizik arione saddle
-pink stelvios on pink aeroheads w/black spokes and pink 32h HF track/track phils dura ace and phil cogs
-pink KMC chain (trackstar gifted it to me with the wheelset)

Polar opposite indeed but it'll be a sweet ride indeed. I'm going for classic and you're going for hot rod.