Advocacy & Safety - Portland Biker Brawl

From this morning's Oregonian...

So, some bikers walk into the Nocturnal's basement bar on a recent Wednesday night. They barely get settled with their brews before someone picks a fight.

Beer bottles, tables, fists and plastic foam helmets fly. Fortunately, the only chains in the vicinity are attached to the pedal cranks outside the Buckman neighborhood club.

Biker brawl, Portland style: Ten pub-crawling bicyclists versus the tipsy motorist -- whose car tires they had deflated -- along with a few of his drinking buddies.

The bicyclists say they were just trying to stop a drunk driver from killing someone.

Apparently, the altercation got going earlier in the evening at the Sunnyside neighborhood's Triple Nickel pub, where the group noticed the driver of a car parked outside was acting intoxicated.

One of them confronted the wobbly driver, suggesting he catch a cab home. When he refused, the bikers emptied their glasses, walked out, let the air out of the man's tires, and rode off.

It's still unknown how the driver and five of his friends tracked down the 10 bicyclists at the Nocturnal, but they did.

After a five-minute rumble, a biker and a bartender -- who tried to break up the fight -- needed stitches. The driver and his friends fled into the night. The police were on the way.

No arrests were made, but police officials don't exactly condone flattening tires when a drunk insists on driving. Calling 9-1-1 is usually best, they say.

"When you take on someone who is potentially intoxicated," says Sgt. Cheryl Robinson, a police spokeswoman, "you don't know what their behavior is going to be."

tee hee :) -- amazing how offended they were when all they needed was a little air - not like the tires were slashed!

but, robertsdvd, one should never underestimate the potential a drunk person will have for doing stupid things.

From this morning's Oregonian...

So, some bikers walk into the Nocturnal's basement bar on a recent Wednesday night. They barely get settled with their brews before someone picks a fight.

Beer bottles, tables, fists and plastic foam helmets fly. Fortunately, the only chains in the vicinity are attached to the pedal cranks outside the Buckman neighborhood club.

Biker brawl, Portland style: Ten pub-crawling bicyclists versus the tipsy motorist -- whose car tires they had deflated -- along with a few of his drinking buddies.

The bicyclists say they were just trying to stop a drunk driver from killing someone.

Apparently, the altercation got going earlier in the evening at the Sunnyside neighborhood's Triple Nickel pub, where the group noticed the driver of a car parked outside was acting intoxicated.

One of them confronted the wobbly driver, suggesting he catch a cab home. When he refused, the bikers emptied their glasses, walked out, let the air out of the man's tires, and rode off.

It's still unknown how the driver and five of his friends tracked down the 10 bicyclists at the Nocturnal, but they did.

After a five-minute rumble, a biker and a bartender -- who tried to break up the fight -- needed stitches. The driver and his friends fled into the night. The police were on the way.

No arrests were made, but police officials don't exactly condone flattening tires when a drunk insists on driving. Calling 9-1-1 is usually best, they say.

"When you take on someone who is potentially intoxicated," says Sgt. Cheryl Robinson, a police spokeswoman, "you don't know what their behavior is going to be."


It doesn't sound like the cyclists have anything on the car driver. Riding a bicycle after drinking might not mean the cyclist will hit something themselves and hurt someone, but they could still cause an accident by doing something stupid on the road.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what the bikers did but isn't it also the bar's responsibility that no one goes out drunk w/o getting straight into a cab, especially if they came in a car?

I don't think there's anything wrong with what the bikers did but isn't it also the bar's responsibility that no one goes out drunk w/o getting straight into a cab, especially if they came in a car?


I think that depends on state/local laws. The people might not have appeared that drunk when they walked out. Maybe they should have let the air out, then called the cops. I know that in my area, if you report a drunk driver, the cops swarm all over looking for the car on the streets.
I myself wasn't referring to what the cyclists did to the tires as wrong, but the article sounded like they were also drinking and then riding on the street. They did go from one bar to another, so they were having more than one drink.

The cyclists should have done something a little harder to fix than deflate the tires--cut or remove ignition wiring, perhaps a'la the nuns in "Sound of Music." It should be unambiguously legal to steal or vandalize a car if it will keep a drunk off the road, damnit!

I don't think there's anything wrong with what the bikers did but isn't it also the bar's responsibility that no one goes out drunk w/o getting straight into a cab, especially if they came in a car?

What makes you think the drunk would have paid any more attention to the barman than the cyclists?

What makes you think the drunk would have paid any more attention to the barman than the cyclists?

Well there's a bar around here where this bouncer named "Ben" who stands about 6' 8" and has arms larger than most biker's legs will physically pick you up and throw you into a waiting cab if you appear to be drunk enough and you're trying to head into your car.

While it's hard to tell if one walks out appearing absolutely sober, if asked by another patron or if appearing visibly drunk, bars have to be responsible for making sure that the patron does not get into a vehicle capable of killing or injuring anyone. In the US, there have been several cases won against bars and prescedence set (I believe) towards responsibility of the bars.

In the US, there have been several cases won against bars and prescedence set (I believe) towards responsibility of the bars.

There have been cases like that out here too. One I do remember was a guy called Dallas Johns who got drunk in Surfers Paradise, threw himself in front of a car, then sued the bar for serving him alcohol (yeah, like they had to pour it down his throat!). He got $270,000 or something. However, that is not the point. The point is that most bars do not have 6'8 security guards, and that bar staff are not always in a position to physically control the drunks. As far as I'm concerned the only solution is fascist enforcement of drunk driving laws. Rule with fear if necessary. Even a drunk can understand that.

The cyclists should have done something a little harder to fix than deflate the tires--cut or remove ignition wiring, perhaps a'la the nuns in "Sound of Music." It should be unambiguously legal to steal or vandalize a car if it will keep a drunk off the road, damnit!


I believe the motor vehicle code in my state doesn't specify that you need to be in a motorized vehicle to be drunk on the road. While it's laudable to try and keep the drinking drivers off the road, the cyclists themselves were pub hopping, and shouldn't have been riding on the road either. Alcohol seems to have fueled stupidity on both sides.

I believe the motor vehicle code in my state doesn't specify that you need to be in a motorized vehicle to be drunk on the road. While it's laudable to try and keep the drinking drivers off the road, the cyclists themselves were pub hopping, and shouldn't have been riding on the road either. Alcohol seems to have fueled stupidity on both sides.

Same rules, same rights, same responsibilites. I saw that on a cycling advocacy bumper sticker. I've had two rental customers arrested and charges with driving under the influence while on a bicycle.

Perhaps this is true; perhaps I simply have some maturing before me
(although I'd better get a move on if I'm going to finish maturing before
I'm too old for it to make a difference), but I will often cycle home after
a night at the bar, but I would *never* get behind the wheel of a car
after even a couple of drinks.

Fundamentally it comes down to the chance of killing someone else.
My chances of killing someone while riding the empty night-time
streets of Seattle on a bicycle are vanishingly small -- probably
lower than the chances of killing someone while riding through
those same streets sober during rush hour. But a drunk driver can
always kill someone.

I'm not saying it's not stupid, just that it's a risk I have rationally
concluded is largely to myself, and one that I am willing to take.
If I were to pit riding with a buzz on against riding without a helmet,
I'd say the latter is orders of magnitude more dangerous to everyone
than the former, at least when I am the rider.

The cyclists should have done something a little harder to fix than deflate the tires--cut or remove ignition wiring, perhaps a'la the nuns in "Sound of Music." It should be unambiguously legal to steal or vandalize a car if it will keep a drunk off the road, damnit!

I don't think the authorities wish to encourage vigilantism in any form.

Just carry a roll of gaff tape with you and if you see a drunk person trying to get into their car, tape 'em to the hood so they can't go anywhere.

FYI, here's a link to a first hand account of the incident (I wrote it).
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286541.shtml

This started less than four blocks from places where 3 cyclists died when hit by drunk drivers of cars. We decided we had to do something. The bouncer was unresponsive to the matter, and our decision making was slightly impaired, but none of us have any great regrets over the matter. I'm sure that it would be different if somebody had been seriously injured in the fracas, but that's not the case. But we would've felt incredibly guilty if we'd done nothing, and woke up the next morning to find out that this driver had killed someone, be it cyclist or pedestrian, adult or child, or even another automobile driver. Taking a stand isn't always easy.

Same rights, same responsibilities, no where near the same potential to kill or mame.

Mess with with my truck--my motorcycle or my bike----and you'll have problems BIG TIME-------drunk or not.

And NO---I don't drink anymore.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.

FYI, here's a link to a first hand account of the incident (I wrote it).
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286541.shtml

This started less than four blocks from places where 3 cyclists died when hit by drunk drivers of cars. We decided we had to do something. .... Taking a stand isn't always easy.



Hey BikeBike1 can we start calling you sluggo?

roughstuff

Drunk drivers are scum.

It doesn't sound like the cyclists have anything on the car driver. Riding a bicycle after drinking might not mean the cyclist will hit something themselves and hurt someone, but they could still cause an accident by doing something stupid on the road.

I have to agree with this post. What I read here is that a bunch of cyclists, IN A BAR DRINKING, took exception to an auto driver IN A BAR DRINKING. :rolleyes:

Mess with with my truck--my motorcycle or my bike----and you'll have problems BIG TIME-------drunk or not.

And NO---I don't drink anymore.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.

Does not messing with a guy's ride include not smashing the windshield when your head smashes into it at 40km/hr?





I have to agree with this post. What I read here is that a bunch of cyclists, IN A BAR DRINKING, took exception to an auto driver IN A BAR DRINKING. :rolleyes:

No, if you go to the IMC posting, you can read that we took exception to someone almost hitting 3-4 cyclists(all equipped with lights), and then going into a bar to drink -more-. When confronted about it, the driver was beligerent and aggressive.

Mess with with my truck--my motorcycle or my bike----and you'll have problems BIG TIME-------drunk or not.

And NO---I don't drink anymore.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.
Park in the bike lane, I'll pull a valve stem or two, no qualms about it. Some cyclists will take a window out on the fly with their U-lock in response to unsafe driving stunts or behavior. Motorists need to learn that they don't own the road. Since cyclists have learned that they generally can't rely on the state to look out for their rights and safety, there are those cyclists who are more than willing to take matters into their own hands. :)

I have to agree with this post. What I read here is that a bunch of cyclists, IN A BAR DRINKING, took exception to an auto driver IN A BAR DRINKING. :rolleyes:


Some points I haven't seen mentioned yet, so I'll mention them:
- Being personally acquainted with the group involved, and having been on many Bike Pub Crawls in Portland, I can assure you that riding around drunk is not what transpires. There is not a great quantity of alcohol consumed, mostly socializing. I've never seen anyone unable to control their cycle.
- As I understand the situation, the motorist in question had fishtailed around a corner, nearly hitting four cyclists while driving in the wrong lane, before even going into the Triple Nickel to consume MORE beer. When confronted before going in, he was unapologetic. When confronted again about getting home by alternate means before LEAVING the TN, now completely smashed drunk, he was belligerent.
- I'm well acquainted with the police response to calls about drunks attempting to drive. On occasions when they respond at all, it is often long after the drunk has driven away. As far as I'm concerned, the cyclists may have saved a life, or lives, by letting the air out of the tires.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.


The use of a vehicle as an extension of "manly ego" (or other "manly" things) is a large part of the problem. "You just don't "F" with a guy's ride." is code for "I'm insecure and will become irrationally violent if my ego-enhancer is threatened." Sheesh.

You little do-gooding punks are lucky you didn't get shot-----then where would you be??

Actually---they do own the road-----when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses??? My truck and motorcycle go on the road-----my bike stays on the trails. Don't you know you can get killed on the road???---lol

Take a stand???? Ever thought of getting the guy's keys----calling him a cab----or calling the cops???

Sorry---but holier than thou A-holes just plain piss me off-----go live in China if you want to control peoples lives so much.


Nothing irrational---insecure or "ego" about it-----my truck costed big bucks----my motorcycle costed big bucks and my bicycle costed big bucks------screw with those and you are costing me money----that I worked hard for-------I'm sorry that you are losers in life and can't afford anything nice.

Since you guys are soooooo brave---go knock over a Hell's Angel's bike and see where that gets you------what??? you say --no way---------I didn't think so. Call me when your Momma wipes your nose and gives you some real balls. Cause I gotta see this.

HA's are not too likely to get on their hogs when f%$#ed up; as many motorcyclists as bicyclists have been murdered by drunk drivers.

You little do-gooding punks are lucky you didn't get shot-----then where would you be??

Actually---they do own the road-----when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses??? My truck and motorcycle go on the road-----my bike stays on the trails. Don't you know you can get killed on the road???---lol

Take a stand???? Ever thought of getting the guy's keys----calling him a cab----or calling the cops???

Sorry---but holier than thou A-holes just plain piss me off-----go live in China if you want to control peoples lives so much.


I get so sick of straightening out people on these forums, but here goes, one item at a time:
- Any bicyclist who has a job or spends money in this country already pays for the road infrastructure. Gas taxes only pay a part, it is also funded from other sources. When I researched how high the gas tax would be if it covered ALL OF road infrastructure, what I found was that it would be from two and a half dollars to SEVEN DOLLARS more PER GALLON. This varied depending on what expenses were taken into consideration, such as sidewalks, roadside landscaping, and the cost of maintaining a military presence in foreign countries to protect pipelines, etc.
- Taking a stand: Taking the guy's keys would be less vigilantism, how exactly? Call a cab ... how would he be made to get into it? Calling the cops ... this has been covered already. Not effective, they would not arrive in time, if they show up at all. Often the attitude is, when a law is broken, then call us, but we're not babysitters.
- Living in China: why not strive to improve the place you are already? Any place you go is going to have imperfections. Also, China would be the last place for a person to go if they want to "control people". This is a very ignorant statement.

You seem like a very small person, one who would resort to violence before having a reasoned discussion. For you a bike is something to carry around on your gas-burning motorized vehicle, which to me does not make you a "cyclist" as much as an "off-roader". There must be a forum out there on off-roading that would serve you better, unless your intent is to stir **** with real "cyclists".

Small person for resorting to violence???? Seems you guys did just fine in that reguard----after all isn't this all about a bar brawl in Portland?

The cyclists didn't start the brawl, the motorist did... :rolleyes:

Actually---they do own the road-----when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses??? My truck and motorcycle go on the road-----my bike stays on the trails.

No they don't. You paid taxes. The city paid for the road. You saying the above is the same as you saying you own the milk a welfare parent gives to thier child.

And as a matter of point, the tickettes you pay on a bike (and you can get a tickette on a bike, ask me how I know) go to road maintenance. Property taxes pay more for roads than automobiles do.

I own a car, a house, and am in the military.

It doesn't give me one ounce more right to the roads, parks, etc than any other person. Niether does your car ownership.

Perhaps it wasn't the best course of action they took, but, really what right does a person have to drive a car drunk?

None.

You sir, are wrong, on many levels.

..--they do own the road-----when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses??? ...


In a democracy, access to public commons such as roads, partks, etc..., are not based on how much you can pay. They are there for everyone.

You little do-gooding punks are lucky you didn't get shot-----then where would you be??

:rolleyes:



Actually---they do own the road-----

Actually, no, they don't.



when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses???

Every frikken day.



My truck and motorcycle go on the road-----my bike stays on the trails. Don't you know you can get killed on the road???---lol

I thought you said in another post that you split your time equally between road and trail.



Take a stand???? Ever thought of getting the guy's keys----calling him a cab----or calling the cops???

Hypothesise all you like, but you weren't there.



Sorry---but holier than thou A-holes just plain piss me off-----go live in China if you want to control peoples lives so much.

Yeah, they can be annoying. Almost as annoying as arrogant wánkers.



Nothing irrational---insecure or "ego" about it-----my truck costed big bucks----my motorcycle costed big bucks and my bicycle costed big bucks------screw with those and you are costing me money----that I worked hard for-------I'm sorry that you are losers in life and can't afford anything nice.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.



Since you guys are soooooo brave---go knock over a Hell's Angel's bike and see where that gets you------what??? you say --no way---------I didn't think so. Call me when your Momma wipes your nose and gives you some real balls. Cause I gotta see this.

From what I can tell, Hell's Angels are more rational and responsible than the guy involved in this story, so I doubt there'd be a need to.

I first read of this event in the shift newsletter. I hate confrontations, but I admire those cyclists who perceived a potentially deadly outcome in that situation and chose to act upon the least aggressive solution they could manage rather than do nothing at all. I say Bravo!

To Strawman and OmahaRider: Given the circumstances related here, do you truly believe the monetary worth of your respective 'rides' supersedes the public good? That hissing noise you hear is your I-Me-Mine arguments deflating at a rapid rate.

Since you guys are soooooo brave---go knock over a Hell's Angel's bike and see where that gets you------what??? you say --no way---------I didn't think so. Call me when your Momma wipes your nose and gives you some real balls. Cause I gotta see this.

Yep, there's no place to develop "real balls" quite like behind a keyboard.

Incidentally, would you mind taking a moment to read the forum guidelines? (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=22263) Frankly, cheap name-calling does nothing to strenghten your "argument", if that's how it can be described.

Yeah, my bike helped pay for the roads. The sales tax I paid on it hepled pay for it, and the subsiquient sales tax on the accessories, replacment parts, and bike clothing did. That and the punitive property tax on my car and house.

Now look what you guys did! Because the FORUM topic has turned to motorcycles and harleys and all that, we are getting ads for leather moto jackets and other things to put us into Hog Heaven. :)

roughstuff

Hmmm, a truck, a motorcycle and a trail bike. Guy sounds like a redneck to me. What is it with rednecks being obsessed with trucks? Unless you're a contractor, how often are you going to use that space?

Now look what you guys did! Because the FORUM topic has turned to motorcycles and harleys and all that, we are getting ads for leather moto jackets and other things to put us into Hog Heaven. :)

roughstuff
Make a donation and you won't have to view the ads. :D

FYI, here's a link to a first hand account of the incident (I wrote it).
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/286541.shtml

This started less than four blocks from places where 3 cyclists died when hit by drunk drivers of cars. We decided we had to do something. The bouncer was unresponsive to the matter, and our decision making was slightly impaired, but none of us have any great regrets over the matter. I'm sure that it would be different if somebody had been seriously injured in the fracas, but that's not the case. But we would've felt incredibly guilty if we'd done nothing, and woke up the next morning to find out that this driver had killed someone, be it cyclist or pedestrian, adult or child, or even another automobile driver. Taking a stand isn't always easy.

Same rights, same responsibilities, no where near the same potential to kill or mame.

A "conservative eye for accuracy"-what is this, Fox News reporting? By the way in Portland, OR. cyclists are considered vehicles in the Law's eye. Vigilantism is not the way to go about things especially with a drunk.
Your lucky the person whos tires you deflated did not have a weapon. This story could have ended differently not in your favor to boast about. Next time call the police.

Actually---they do own the road-----when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses??? My truck and motorcycle go on the road-----my bike stays on the trails. Don't you know you can get killed on the road???---lol

Hey, pal - my taxes pay for your gasoline subsidies, so STFU.

You just don't "F" with a guy's ride.

You just don't "F" with a guy's LIFE by driving drunk...

-----my truck costed big bucks----my motorcycle costed big bucks and my bicycle costed big bucks------
You should have "spented" that money on a proper education.

Kudos to the cyclists for taking a drunk driver off the roads...

-----my truck costed big bucks----my motorcycle costed big bucks and my bicycle costed big bucks

It appears as if your education was free.

Bcck on topic with a legal point: Around here, you can get a DUI on any type of vehicle that is permitted on the road, be it truck, car, tractor, bicycle, or horseback. Yep, a drunk man on horseback is subject to DUI around here, and it happens every year during Mardi Gras.

Even in Mamou.

I recall a guy got done for being drunk on roller skates in Sydney a few years back.

-----when was the last or any time your bike paid for any road construction or maintainence expenses???

http://www.biketexas.org/pdf/Fair_Share_ResSheet.pdf