Tandem Cycling - Trying OOP tonight

For the first time, my stoker and I will be testing out OOP on our night ride.

Our night ride is around the hills of our area, starting from and ending at our home.

It is around 25 miles with over 3600 feet of steep ups and downs. Including several pitches of over 15% grade. http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Night-ride-with-Hastings-Club

It is a regular loop. So I can see if our speeds are up from what they usually are on a given roadway segment, etc...

We are going to try stoker advanced 90 degrees first.

I will post back the results. :thumb:

It is around 25 miles with over 3600 feet of steep ups and downs. Including several pitches of over 15% grade. http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Night-ride-with-Hastings-Club

You are soo lucky! We have to drive about 1 hr to get to anything like that.

Standing together was the hardest thing for us. Now it is like 2nd nature. We use 90 with the captain leading.

It was a good ride.

At first we tried OOP stoker advanced 90 deg:
- It was OK, but felt no faster than IP, just more consistent.
- It was easier for Ruth when we did double standing climbing, probably because she experienced the load first to give her some bearing, and then I helped push the her through.
- I didn't feel that we were making enough power with this setup.

So I switched it to OOP, captain advanced 90 deg around 1/4 the way into the ride:
- At first I felt more "stoker wag" in the back end of the bike, but it smoothed out.
- I felt we were making more consistent power while seated climbing, we could push bigger gears easier.
- Standing alone was much better than IP or the other OOP. I felt like I could mash up the hills for days when standing on my own. Ruth felt good standing on her own too. seriously it felt like standing on my solo bike in a pretty big gear, except with no dead spots! Very nice.
- Standing together was another story, worse than the other OOP or IP. The bike was kind of all over. I think Ruth sees me, and subconciously tries to mimic my motions, but since we are OOP it throws things off. We'll try it again next ride which is 158 miles, so plenty of time to figure it out ;)
- Without the ability to do very good double standing, our ability to smash it up the momentum rollers was somewhat deminished.

The verdict...

- I think that OOP (captain advanced 90 deg) could be faster for us, as long as we can master the double standing. The single standing is great, the seated climbing feels great too. It seemed the speeds were up ever so slightly. Alternating single standing works pretty well too.

- We lost a little bit of intstantanious peak torque, but gained more continuous (constant) power.

- I think we gained a little bit of speed, around 1 mph or less, but something.

- I missed that In Phase feeling of pedaling with my stoker. It feels more like a true team when you're pedaling in phase... weird.

I missed that In Phase feeling of pedaling with my stoker. It feels more like a true team when you're pedaling in phase... weird.


There are essentially three entities riding a Tandem:
The captain, the stoker, and the spirit.
It is the spirit who likes in-phase cranks.

--Osman Isvan

There are essentially three entities riding a Tandem:
The captain, the stoker, and the spirit.
It is the spirit who likes in-phase cranks.

--Osman Isvan

I was waiting for that :lol:

There are essentially three entities riding a Tandem:
The captain, the stoker, and the spirit.
The spirit likes to win.

--Hermes

Fixed

Fixed

Almost, but not technically correct...



There are essentially three entities racing a Tandem:
The captain, the stoker, and the ego.
It is ego that drives the need to win.


Not that there's anything wrong with that....

The difference lies at the heart of the spirit vs ego dialog

haha.. oh man.

Almost, but not technically correct...



Not that there's anything wrong with that....

The difference lies at the heart of the spirit vs ego dialog

The spirit likes to win it does not NEED to win.:p

Is this Deja vu? I swear this exact exchange has occurred once upon a time in the tandem forum's past. ;)

Here's the ride we are doing on Sunday... We will find out what works best for us.

158 miles and over 14,000 feet of climbing (and it's a hard 14k... Look at the profile):
http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Double-Century-Training-SMC

Ok, I have to ask a dumb question. what does OOP stand for? Only thing I can come up that makes sense is Out Of Phase?
Duppie

Ok, I have to ask a dumb question. what does OOP stand for? Only thing I can come up that makes sense is Out Of Phase?
Duppie

correct.

OOP = Out Of Phase
IP = In Phase
OOP can be accomplished in varying degrees (number of teeth) of either stoker or pilot leading.
Most have the captain leading by 90 degrees. If captain is left footed, his left foot leads. If he is right footed, his right foot leads . . . a big difference in feel it you mess that one up!
We have been riding OOP for 200,000+ miles (since 1977). Yeah, we like it.
Most teams have a small learning curve; yes, it can be a bit of a circus show with both folks standing while OOP, however it can be done. Usually not any problem with either rider standing.
The big advantage is that there is always a power stoke (a pedal going over the top). With IP there is a dead spot unless riders are adept at 'ankling' (pulling pedal over the dead spot).
OOP creates less flex on frame and less wear on some of the componentry than IP.
Photo of our current tandem set up OOP, with captain's right foot leading.
Try it both ways . . . give it a couple days/rides/weeks to see which you prefer.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Photo of our current tandem set up OOP
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

I thought you used bar-end shifter. These look like Shimano brifters. Did you change them?

If captain is left footed, his left foot leads. If he is right footed, his right foot leads . . . a big difference in feel it you mess that one up!


You lost me there...

You lost me there...

+1

Ummm If captain leads with one foot, he/she leads with the other too. The captain is just leading. NO reason to talk left or right.....

OOP is something I’ve never even thought about. This puts Biopace to shame!

With OOP, what is your pedal position when riding fast through a tight turn? Do you put the Captains outside pedal to the bottom (180 deg), like on a single or IP tandem? I am guessing there would be enough clearance to avoid planting the stokers inside pedal into the pavement, but it has to feel weird for whoever doesn’t have their outside pedal at the bottom of the stroke.

I had never thought of aligning the crank arms OOP. I’ve got to give this a try, as it’s got me intrigued. What would be the advantage in high speed cornering to have the Stoker’s outside pedal at the bottom of the stroke verse the Captains, or vice versa? What percentage of tandem teams have you seen riding OOP? This summer will be my first exposure to riding with a large number of tandem teams; NWTR and STP. I’m very curious to see how many teams are cycling with OOP cranks. If you had two experienced cyclist on a Di Vinci, I wonder if the Pilot and Stoker unknowingly synchronise to IP or OOP, or have complete lack of synchronisation?

I can’t wait to get home and try this out on my Rio.

I am guessing there would be enough clearance to avoid planting the stokers inside pedal into the pavement,

The other pedal would be horizontal. After looking at it, there is no way to lean the bike that far over in a turn, just no way, your hip might by touching the ground too at that point. ;)

Only thing to really watch out for is speed bumps or things like that where you would put the pedals both horizontal.

We tried OOP for one week and went back to IP. We did not like the OOP during standing/climbing. Also my wife and have also single and we do have the same reflex of bringing the inside pedal up during a tight curve. This ended up in some confusion when we both wanted to have our inside pedal up. We did not see any change in our average or maximum speed neither. We went back to IP. I can't say one is better than the other. It is a question of personnal preference. Trying it is the best way to find out.

Cheetah

The other pedal would be horizontal. After looking at it, there is no way to lean the bike that far over in a turn, just no way, your hip might by touching the ground too at that point. ;)

Only thing to really watch out for is speed bumps or things like that where you would put the pedals both horizontal.

I agree. However, over the years my stoker's pedals have hit the road about 5 times. Once over a speed bump and the other four while cornering and being a little too anxious to to start pedaling or just being distracted about pedal position.

OOP is something I’ve never even thought about. This puts Biopace to shame!

With OOP, what is your pedal position when riding fast through a tight turn? Do you put the Captains outside pedal to the bottom (180 deg), like on a single or IP tandem? I am guessing there would be enough clearance to avoid planting the stokers inside pedal into the pavement, but it has to feel weird for whoever doesn’t have their outside pedal at the bottom of the stroke.

I can’t wait to get home and try this out on my Rio.

You seem to be thinking 180 degrees OOP. The three versions I've seen are 0 degrees (i.e. in-phase), 5-10 degrees, captain leading, and 90 degrees OOP. This puts the stoker's pedals level when the captain is cornering with the outside pedal at 6 o'clock. The chain ring would hit the ground before the stoker's pedals. And that's quite a lean.

What is the school of thought on running OOP between 0-90 deg (such as 5-10 deg or 45 deg, etc)?

rmac: old photo shows brifters. Switched to barcons after 3,000 miles.
Cornucopia and Uspspro: Bit of erroneous word usage on my part. Instead of pilot left or right pedal leading . . . should have read:
Pilot pushing off with left foot or right foot.
Sorry 'bout that.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

What is the school of thought on running OOP between 0-90 deg (such as 5-10 deg or 45 deg, etc)?


We run 45 degrees with the captain leading. For us, it seems like a nice compromise. We've still got most of the climbing motor that 90 degrees OOP gave us, but a lot less hassle for the stoker as we start and stop. 90 degrees OOP makes those tasks awkward for her.

We've run both for about an equal amount of time over 25 years and I like each for different reasons. Right now we are IP because we are trying to be better at standing (I can't imagine you guys standing OOP). We find that as we get older the last part of climbs needs a little ooomph.

I'm not sure why we are so bad standing, but the tandem is pretty squirrely. The thing is I've always been a standing climber on my single for the power climbs that we have around here. Maybe that's the problem.

We have been standing OPP for 5 years. It forces you to hold the bike steady and not sway. When I do pull hard and sway my stoker has to go with the flow and looses power. Steady works best.

PS We also tried 45 degrees OOP for a while but found 90 degrees gave us the smoothest stroke.

We still use (from the/our very beginning) OOP. See old discussions on this forum: Smoother riding with higher performance (although it seems tougher !). And a longer live of the entire drivetrain !

In a week or 2, I will install the tandem on a computrainer. Then I am going to look at the power output for both IP and OOP. For sure if there is more power riding OOP, we will put more effort to appreciate it. I will be back with the result.

Cheetah

PS: I am surprised nobody try that already?????

In a week or 2, I will install the tandem on a computrainer. Then I am going to look at the power output for both IP and OOP. For sure if there is more power riding OOP, we will put more effort to appreciate it. I will be back with the result.

Cheetah

PS: I am surprised nobody try that already?????

I was thinking of that actually!