Advocacy & Safety - Take the lane analogy

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duke_of_hazard
03-12-09, 09:34 AM
I notice a lot of 'take-the-lane' detractors insist you are a sitting duck. I thought of an analogy last night that explains why this is not true. Consider when road crews block off a lane to do repair work. Do cars ever run directly into them? I don't think it happens often. Now add your mirror and situational awareness and you can see how the odds of being struck are nearly ZERO. It doesn't matter if you are going 5 mph on a 45 mph road... Any speed, any road it should not matter.


trekker pete
03-12-09, 09:39 AM
First off, road side workers do get whacked from time to time. Also, these road crews have cones, signs, dudes waving flags, bigazz orange dump trucks and flashers.

So, if you are trying to draw an analogy, regarding the visibility of each, well, all I can say is, you suck at drawing. :)

AndrewP
03-12-09, 10:09 AM
Drivers usually try to avoid hitting anything in theur path, even if it is only a paper bag. Visibility helps.


-=(8)=-
03-12-09, 10:12 AM
Drivers usually try to avoid hitting anything in theur path, even if it is only a paper bag. Visibility helps.


Im moving to Canada !! :)

genec
03-12-09, 10:35 AM
I notice a lot of 'take-the-lane' detractors insist you are a sitting duck. I thought of an analogy last night that explains why this is not true. Consider when road crews block off a lane to do repair work. Do cars ever run directly into them? I don't think it happens often. Now add your mirror and situational awareness and you can see how the odds of being struck are nearly ZERO. It doesn't matter if you are going 5 mph on a 45 mph road... Any speed, any road it should not matter.

It happens often enough that California has had "cone zone" campaigns that emphasize slowing down and driving carefully when you see road crews.
http://www.slowfortheconezone.com/
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/conezone/


Every year more than 1000 people die in work zone crashes and more than 40,000 are injured.

More Highway workers are killed each year than Police and Firefighters combined.


The most common collision type is the rear end collision.

Now that said... I DO take the lane, but only when there is no other choice.

noisebeam
03-12-09, 10:56 AM
I DO take the lane, but only when there is no other choice.

I too think the analogy doesn't fit.

But I am curious Gene. If you are cycling on a lightly used residential street with no paint, do you ride roughly 'lane' centerish or close to the curb? What if there is no paint except for a centerline and enough space for a motor vehicle to pass if you ride a few feet from curb?

Al

trekker pete
03-12-09, 11:07 AM
Can't speak for gene, but, as a rule, on lightly used roads, lined or otherwise, I tend to move closer to the center of the road or wherever the pavement is best. It is safer there.

Riding along the shoulder of an empty road increases the chance of flats or an animal running out in front of you.

I also ride everywhere with my helmet mounted mirror so I can get the hell out of the way when something faster than me is approaching from the rear.

There really is no proper place to ride, imo. There is however a proper place to ride for a particular circumstance.

sharkey00
03-12-09, 11:19 AM
The analogy is not bad but the conclusion is. There is always a significant chance of being hit on the road including when you take the lane. Typically the largest problem I have is cars trying to pass at inappropriate times creating dangerous situations.

It may be safer to take the lane but that does not make it safe.

duke_of_hazard
03-12-09, 11:21 AM
The analogy is not bad but the conclusion is. There is always a significant chance of being hit on the road including when you take the lane. Typically the largest problem I have is cars trying to pass at inappropriate times creating dangerous situations.

It may be safer to take the lane but that does not make it safe.

I assume you mean not safe for the drivers? If so , I agree completely. I see too many people overtake me at totally inappropriate times.

Bekologist
03-12-09, 11:38 AM
I don't see 'take the lane=sitting duck" so much as

"take the lane=lame accommodation"

Expectations every cyclist or potential cyclist should just "take the lane" on any and every road without added considerations for bicycling is totally inadequate when seriously considering bicycles as transportation on public rights of way in this country.

Street grids across urban areas can be better optimized for bicycle travel by adding infrastructure and/ or road enhancements along high use cooridors. Neighborhood low speed and low ADT roads likely need little or no remediation for effective considerations of bike travel. Limited access high speed roadways, rural highways and freeways can be optimized for on-road bike travel with sound bike lane or shoulder policies.

Narrow lane planning demanding bicyclists simplistically 'take the lane' does not solve the problems of traffic congestion, speed differential, aggressive motorists, traffic adverse cyclists, or significant numbers of bikes.

genec
03-12-09, 11:45 AM
I too think the analogy doesn't fit.

But I am curious Gene. If you are cycling on a lightly used residential street with no paint, do you ride roughly 'lane' centerish or close to the curb? What if there is no paint except for a centerline and enough space for a motor vehicle to pass if you ride a few feet from curb?

Al

I ride "centerish" in the lane... around here there are cars parked along the curbs. One thing I do avoid is dead center in a lane, as that is where the grease spot usually is... and my motorcycle training taught me that is a bad place. So "centerish" to me is generally to the right of center, in the right tire track, or just slightly to the left of the right tire track.

But to be honest, even in quiet residential neighborhoods I would ride "centerish" in the lane. In fact I practice HH dynamic lane positioning on such roads... it just makes sense to ride "wide" as too many people zoom around corners in the neighborhoods they think they know. I may pull over for a motorist on such a neighborhood street, if I wasn't expecting to go straight at the next intersection or turn left. I also ride centerish on country roads that have minimal shoulders. (have always toured this way)

But as soon as I leave a neighborhood, I ride on arterial roads; the lowest speed limit is 35MPH for the closest east-west road, and it is lined with parked cars. I take the lane, in the right tire track. There are two lanes, motorists must use the left most lane. Further down this road, the road becomes three lanes, I ride centered in the right lane due to parked cars and lots and lots of business driveways.

When I go north-south, the 45MPH arterial road (which changes to 50MPH) has a bike lane, which I use most of the time... except for obstructions or areas where the BL is just poorly designed.

When I get to the 50 and 55 MPH arterial roads, again they have BL, so I ride in the BL, unless it is blocked, then I take a lane. But in the BL, I am not taking the lane.

I avoid riding any closer to the curb than about 3 feet, at all times. Usually in BL, I am just to the right of the stripe. I have never seen a residential street where there is room enough for me to ride off the curb and a car can also pass within the lane. Usually motorists pull to the left into the unoccupied on coming lane to pass me. A street wide enough for me and a car side by side to share would be a residential street of about 28 or more feet wide with no cars parked on the street or about 42 feet wide with cars lining the street. And if cars line the street, I need at least 5 feet distance from those cars.

Unless there is a BL, my default position is the right tire track. But I have no fear of BL. (some have touted BL as "deadly") I just keep my head on a swivel and watch to not be trapped in a BL... at intersections, primarily.

I don't find any of this unnecessary. Would you?

I generally don't even think about it... I just do it.

noisebeam
03-12-09, 11:45 AM
I too prefer to have a wide outside lane (but with no striping) vs. a narrow one on higher speed roads. I will still use the full lane in many cases, but prefer to have the extra space to utilize to facilitate shared lane passing when appropriate and at my discretion.

noisebeam
03-12-09, 11:50 AM
I ride centerish in the lane... around here there are cars parked along the curbs. One thing I do avoid is dead center in a lane, as that is where the grease spot usually is... and my motorcycle training taught me that is a bad place.

But to be honest, even in quiet residential neighborhoods I would ride centerish in the lane. In fact I practice HH dynamic lane positioning on such roads... it just makes sense to ride "wide" as too many people zoom around corners in the neighborhoods they think they know. I may pull over for a motorist on such a neighborhood street, if I wasn't expecting to go straight at the next intersection or turn left. I also ride centerish on country roads that have minimal shoulders. (have always toured this way)


Fine as I expected, I wanted to clarify what you said previous which is that you "DO take the lane, but only when there is no other choice." Apparently this statement was not correct as you do have a choice not to in the example you noted above.
Here is a wide residential street:
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34000&d=1168376094

genec
03-12-09, 11:52 AM
Can't speak for gene, but, as a rule, on lightly used roads, lined or otherwise, I tend to move closer to the center of the road or wherever the pavement is best. It is safer there.

Riding along the shoulder of an empty road increases the chance of flats or an animal running out in front of you.

I also ride everywhere with my helmet mounted mirror so I can get the hell out of the way when something faster than me is approaching from the rear.

There really is no proper place to ride, imo. There is however a proper place to ride for a particular circumstance.

Agreed!

What I don't do is ride centered (or rightish of center) when a wide lane or decent shoulder or BL exists... unless I have no other choice. I do not chose to "make a statement" about sharing the road.

But I have no qualms about signaling and using whatever space I need.

Some cyclists ride well out of the BL and only move over when traffic approaches. I don't do that, except on lonely country roads.

noisebeam
03-12-09, 11:55 AM
What I don't do is ride centered (or rightish of center) when a wide lane or decent shoulder or BL exists... unless I have no other choice. I do not chose to "make a statement" about sharing the road.

...except on lonely country roads.

Why do you 'make a statement' to nobody on these lonely country roads?

genec
03-12-09, 11:58 AM
Fine as I expected, I wanted to clarify what you said previous which is that you "DO take the lane, but only when there is no other choice." Apparently this statement was not correct as you do have a choice not to in the example you noted above.
Here is a wide residential street:
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34000&d=1168376094

Doesn't look wide to me... and is it a street I have ever traveled? Or would?

The street pic below is typical of my neighborhood and many older San Diego neighborhoods (the area where I live).

AlmostTrick
03-12-09, 11:59 AM
It's not just about traffic from behind. I notice much better treatment from cross traffic, and the sightlines are better, when I'm more centered in the lane. Basically, I'm almost always "taking the lane" unless faster same direction traffic approaches me from behind AND there is enough room for me to safely move into. No bike lanes here, mostly standard width or narrow lanes.

noisebeam
03-12-09, 12:09 PM
Doesn't look wide to me... and is it a street I have ever traveled? Or would?

The street pic below is typical of my neighborhood and many older San Diego neighborhoods (the area where I live).

The road I showed was as wide as the one you just did. There were just no cars parked on the one I showed, although they sometimes do legally park curbside on that road.
On the road you pictured I'd ride centered between the parked cars and the double yellow and if there was a driver following and a long gap between parked cars (there appears one a bit down the right side) move over so I was riding where the driver position of the parked car would be. Assuming no other hazards making moving over unwise.
Al

genec
03-12-09, 12:10 PM
Why do you 'make a statement' to nobody on these lonely country roads?

I want to be seen on the these roads, and generally around here in CA there are no shoulders... I do not want to try to ride on the fog line.

In Oregon, the country roads had nice wide shoulders with BL. But as soon as that road crossed into CA, the shoulders disappear.

In northern AZ where I did a bit of touring 2 years ago, the roadways had nice wide shoulders... and pretty good sightlines.

A lot of CA country roads look like the road pic shown below. (I have ridden this road hundreds and hundreds of times)

genec
03-12-09, 12:12 PM
The road I showed was as wide as the one you just did. There were just no cars parked on the one I showed, although they sometimes do legally park curbside on that road.
On the road you pictured I'd ride centered between the parked cars and the double yellow and if there was a driver following and a long gap between parked cars (there appears one a bit down the right side) move over so I was riding where the driver position of the parked car would be. Assuming no other hazards making moving over unwise.
Al

And here, there are almost always cars parked on the roads.

EDIT: Opps let me clarify... I have never lived where the residential streets were wide and empty. I know such streets exist, but I have never lived in and around such neighborhoods.

My last house was new in 1984 and in a new neighborhood; everyone had a two car garage and street parking was discouraged. The street was quite narrow none the less.

So really, I do not know the "luxury" of wide, empty residential streets.

noisebeam
03-12-09, 12:14 PM
And here, there are almost always cars parked on the roads.

I don't see any parked cars on the right side of the road you pictured after the cluster of four.

njkayaker
03-12-09, 03:06 PM
Drivers usually try to avoid hitting anything in their path, even if it is only a paper bag. Visibility helps.

A perceptual limitation tends to make slow/not-moving things less noticeable. (This is what allows cop cars to hide in plain site.) Being a much slower object where a driver is accustomed not to expect such things (ie, in the middle of the lane) tends to be unsafe.

This limitation is worse with larger differences in speed (because higher differences mean less time to process and react).

While it isn't common, even things like cop cars in the lane even with flashers going get run into. Visibility helps but it isn't enough.

Always "taking the lane" isn't "sharing the road" because it is not cooperating with the other road users.

genec
03-12-09, 03:39 PM
I don't see any parked cars on the right side of the road you pictured after the cluster of four.

Yeah, so a static google image taken sometime in mid day perhaps 2 years ago is the perfect decision maker for my cycling at or near early morning or after 5PM when I am likely commuting... :rolleyes:

Pllleeeeease. There are times when the street in front of my house is empty, including my driveway... Usually around noon or so everyday. It never looks like that before 8 AM or after 5PM... the times I leave and return.

*********************************************

(funny side note to the comments above... the google image of my house shows my wife getting in the car and getting ready to leave, at one particular distance and zoom level... surly, you don't believe that is the case "most of the time."

Further side note... I have been out of work for the last 10 days or so, and I have noticed that main arterial road going east and west is darn quiet at or around 10:00 AM every day... nice ride. But during rush hour... parked cars line the street, and traffic is nearly bumper to bumper and moving fast)

noisebeam
03-12-09, 03:44 PM
Gene i am not wanting to argue, just clarify that at those (even if rare) times when relatively quiet street have wide lanes, do you ride centerish or 3' from the curb. As you know the decision is based on the conditions at the time - so a google image shows a time so the decision only applies at the time the image was taken, not for every moment afterward even if parking/traffic changes.

genec
03-12-09, 03:51 PM
A perceptual limitation tends to make slow/not-moving things less noticeable. (This is what allows cop cars to hide in plain site.) Being a much slower object where a driver is accustomed not to expect such things (ie, in the middle of the lane) tends to be unsafe.

This limitation is worse with larger differences in speed (because higher differences mean less time to process and react).

While it isn't common, even things like cop cars in the lane even with flashers going get run into. Visibility helps but it isn't enough.

Always "taking the lane" isn't "sharing the road" because it is not cooperating with the other road users.

Very much agreed... Exactly the points made in the book:
"Traffic: Why We Drive the Way We Do (and What It Says About Us)" by Tom Vanderbilt.

This is an excellent read and I highly recommend it. It is a fun read as well... this is not a boring tome of a book.

Tom Vanderbilt discusses this perceptual limitation issue extensively as the reason that people plow into construction sites on the roadway and such obvious things as large stopped garbage trucks... never mind, slow cyclists. We have a hard time dealing with objects with differential speeds over 20MPH... humans just were not designed that way. Heck, even John Forester mentions that differential speeds of over 15 MPH make it difficult for cyclists to negotiate with motorists.

This is not an unknown phenomena... and yet we continually deny it as cyclists taking the lane on high speed roadways.

There was a thread here not long ago talking about the Tom Vanderbilt book:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=503711&highlight=Vanderbilt

noisebeam
03-12-09, 03:55 PM
Always "taking the lane" isn't "sharing the road" because it is not cooperating with the other road users.

Has anyone ever argued for 'always taking the lane'?

genec
03-12-09, 04:20 PM
Gene i am not wanting to argue, just clarify that at those (even if rare) times when relatively quiet street have wide lanes, do you ride centerish or 3' from the curb. As you know the decision is based on the conditions at the time - so a google image shows a time so the decision only applies at the time the image was taken, not for every moment afterward even if parking/traffic changes.

OK lets assume for a minute we are talking just about this image and what I would do riding in this picture. http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=97489&d=1236880700

I am moving at about 15MPH... about 4 car lengths back from the small blue car on the right I would do a shoulder check (I have already glanced at the mirror and I can hear traffic on this street pretty well) and signal to move left (might not signal if there is no one coming up behind me). I would take a position about in the center of the right lane (it looks clean and dry) and ride it past the parked cars. I would most likely hold that position for up to and over the speed table and past the stop sign (where the car up ahead is entering from the left). Then I would probably slide over to the right to be about where the outer edge of the parked cars are, in the foreground... which is actually about 6 feet off the curb.

If I heard or saw a car approaching from behind at that point, and did not anticipate having to move left for any more parked cars... (further ahead) I would probably slide over to the right about 2 feet as that car came up behind me.

If on the other hand, I was within about 6-8 car lengths of parked cars in front of me... I would hold my position (about 6 feet out from the curb) and keep an eye on the car behind me and see if they just slide by (remember I am leaving about as much room as parked cars) or if I should start to signal that I am about to move left to avoid the cars up ahead.

Heck if I am feeling fast, and there is no apparent traffic... and the road continues to be clean and dry with no cracks or pot holes... I might just cruise down the center of the lane where I was... until I hear or see approaching traffic. (this is not a heavily traveled street)

Now bear in mind this street runs just under 1 mile... (see map below) then I have to shift over to the arterial road if I plan on getting anywhere going east. Going west, I can move over another road similar to this, but with a bit more traffic, for again just under 1 mile after I cross an arterial road. If I just want to go to the grocery store, I can almost use residential streets all the way. If I want to go anywhere else... I have to get on one of the heavy yellow arterial roads pictured in the map below.

So if nobody is around... I would probably be in the center of the right side of the street and just cruising... if there was traffic, I might be in the center, or 6 feet from the curb, or even 3-4 feet from the curb, depending on the moment and parked cars, and road conditions.

Out on the arterial road (the heavy yellows) I would be 5 feet from the parked cars, in the right tire track (away from parked cars) and holding very steady and predictable as traffic moves past me at 40MPH or so (depending on time of day). I am moving at about 15MPH, motor traffic is moving between 35-45MPH, so the speed difference is between 20 and 30MPH at any particular moment... I want those drivers to know I plan on staying right there on that arterial road.

Does that answer your question?

genec
03-12-09, 04:25 PM
Has anyone ever argued for 'always taking the lane'?

Not that I am aware of, but arguments have been made for being "left biased by default," and then moving over to the right.

noisebeam
03-12-09, 05:17 PM
Not that I am aware of, but arguments have been made for being "left biased by default," and then moving over to the right.

correct, which is sharing the road

sharkey00
03-12-09, 06:04 PM
I assume you mean not safe for the drivers? If so , I agree completely. I see too many people overtake me at totally inappropriate times.

No, I mean unsafe for everyone on the road both cars and bikes. Drivers crashing near me is not safe for me.

AlmostTrick
03-13-09, 09:37 AM
Mm-mm-mm-mm

I keep a close watch on the cars behind.
I keep my eyes wide open all the time.
I keep some space that I can call all mine.
Because it's sane,
I take the lane.

Mm-mm-mm-mm

When there is room I move on to the side
I wave to cars on almost every ride
Before I learned I almost even died!
Because it's sane,
I take the lane.
:D

genec
03-13-09, 09:39 AM
correct, which is sharing the road

As long as every road user shares. Otherwise it is "giving way."

You were asking about areas where the parked cars don't happen to be... On arterial roads I find that if I pull over in any decent sort of gap of parked cars, other road users tend to be a bit hoggish when I want back into the main stream of traffic, even when there are multiple lanes. Is that "sharing" too?

genec
03-13-09, 09:42 AM
Mm-mm-mm-mm

I keep a close watch on the cars behind.
I keep my eyes wide open all the time.
I keep some space that I can call all mine.
Because it's sane,
I take the lane.

Mm-mm-mm-mm

When there is room I move on to the side
I wave to cars on almost every ride
Before I learned I almost even died!
Because it's sane,
I take the lane.
:D

cool. no doubt apologies to johnny cash...

noisebeam
03-13-09, 09:53 AM
As long as every road user shares. Otherwise it is "giving way."

You were asking about areas where the parked cars don't happen to be... On arterial roads I find that if I pull over in any decent sort of gap of parked cars, other road users tend to be a bit hoggish when I want back into the main stream of traffic, even when there are multiple lanes. Is that "sharing" too?

I wouldn't pull into a gap of non-parked cars unless it was long enough, maybe 30s+ of travel time, and the traffic conditions were such that merging back would be trouble free. I've never had a issue merging back, start signaling well before and after 1-3 drivers pass one will slow to let one in.

If there are multiple lanes I wouldn't move over outside the outer travel lane as drivers can pass if they want without me moving over.

Anyway I was talking about the road you pictured. I can't imaging an issue merging back on this road, not only that after the four parked cars on the right there are no parked cars as far as can been seen in the picture, so under the conditions and time the image was taken I'd move over to the right to let a faster vehicle pass and move back after they did. Other roads or times are different and treated on case by case basis.

Also I started this just asking about relativlely quiet residential streets - I realized that I actually ride on these close, about 3ft, to the right of the roadway center line - for max visibility and time to react to x-conditions. Like yesterday when I was near home I was riding in the very middle of the road and a kid came dashing out behind a parked car chasing a ball from the driveway. Had I been any further right I may not have had the time/space to react.

Al

genec
03-13-09, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't pull into a gap of non-parked cars unless it was long enough, maybe 30s+ of travel time, and the traffic conditions were such that merging back would be trouble free. I've never had a issue merging back, start signaling well before and after 1-3 drivers pass one will slow to let one in.


Let's see, 15MPH is about 22 feet a second; giving each parked car 22 feet or so, 30s of travel time would be a gap of roughly 20-25 cars. I think I have tried to "share" with less space... perhaps the issue at hand. I suppose I just shouldn't be so "generous," eh?



If there are multiple lanes I wouldn't move over outside the outer travel lane as drivers can pass if they want without me moving over.
Yeah but they don't... even with three lanes on a 35MPH road, some motorists can be pretty darn "hoggy." ;)



Anyway I was talking about the road you pictured. I can't imaging an issue merging back on this road, not only that after the four parked cars on the right there are no parked cars as far as can been seen in the picture, so under the conditions and time the image was taken I'd move over to the right to let a faster vehicle pass and move back after they did. Other roads or times are different and treated on case by case basis.

Also I started this just asking about relativlely quiet residential streets - I realized that I actually ride on these close, about 3ft, to the right of the roadway center line - for max visibility and time to react to x-conditions. Like yesterday when I was near home I was riding in the very middle of the road and a kid came dashing out behind a parked car chasing a ball from the driveway. Had I been any further right I may not have had the time/space to react.

Al

On quiet residential streets... depending on my speed... yeah I pretty much agree. The slower I am, the more likely I am further to the right. If I am doing anywhere near or over 20MPH... the lane is mine.

noisebeam
03-13-09, 10:23 AM
On quiet residential streets... depending on my speed... yeah I pretty much agree. The slower I am, the more likely I am further to the right. If I am doing anywhere near or over 20MPH... the lane is mine.

And that is all I was getting at when I first brought this up in post #6 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=8516971&postcount=6).

genec
03-13-09, 10:27 AM
But getting back to the OP's points... I still don't feel that taking the lane on a high speed road, especially when there is a huge speed differential such as an 8MPH cyclist climbing speed on a 55MPH road is quite the "it should not matter" situation that was it was stated to be. I contend that the issues of "perceptual limitation" make "taking the lane" under high speed differentials more of a risk than we fully comprehend.

Ajenkins
03-13-09, 10:29 AM
There is always a significant chance of being hit on the road

Umm...no. Actually, there isn't a significant chance of being hit on the road. Cycling is an extraordinarily safe activity.

genec
03-13-09, 10:54 AM
Umm...no. Actually, there isn't a significant chance of being hit on the road. Cycling is an extraordinarily safe activity.

Ah... here it is... OK prove it.

Per mile traveled, the statistics show that cycling is roughly twice as dangerous as driving. I was going to cite Ken Kifer's page which shows this data, but for some reason, I cannot access that URL today.

jack002
03-13-09, 11:49 AM
Mm-mm-mm-mm

I keep a close watch on the cars behind.
I keep my eyes wide open all the time.
I keep some space that I can call all mine.
Because it's sane,
I take the lane.

Mm-mm-mm-mm

When there is room I move on to the side
I wave to cars on almost every ride
Before I learned I almost even died!
Because it's sane,
I take the lane.
:D
Yeah, the MAN IN BLACK should wear some HI VIS so we can see him at night! :eek::lol:

AndrewP
03-13-09, 01:16 PM
Im moving to Canada !! :)

10F here this morning, some things are better in FL

uke
03-13-09, 03:35 PM
Umm...no. Actually, there isn't a significant chance of being hit on the road. Cycling is an extraordinarily safe activity.

It depends on how you define "significant". Compared to driving, you're twice as likely to get in an accident per mile.

SeattleShaun
03-13-09, 11:33 PM
Compared to driving, you're twice as likely to get in an accident per mile.

How often do you get into collisions?

In 25 years of driving (maybe 500k miles) I've been hit by negligent drivers twice and have never caused a collision myself.

In 36 years of cycling (maybe 100k miles) I've never collided with a car, cyclist, or pedestrian. Granted, there's plenty of dodging the myriad chuckleheaded drivers, but that's true whether walking, riding, or driving.

IIRC, the number of cyclists killed in the entire US each year is about 700+/- In Seattle, a typical year sees maybe 2 or 3 cyclist fatalities.

Seems like the risk is pretty overblown to me...

martinus
03-14-09, 01:28 AM
Missing a "0" ^^^ up there ...

I only fallen once, ( that will proly change now... ) in 20 years of casual riding, racing, training, commuting & it wasnt car realted. ( there wasnt one for miles. ) "We" ran out of day light one late summer day . Some sort of furry critter darted out in front of us, we all ranover it & then each other ... it ran away, we walked hitch-hiked ( in Europe @ the time ... ) our bent bikes & bodies home.

I do have people give me the 'ole one figer salute, ( or try to scare me after they pass with a little twitch of the st. wheel. Like they are gonna run me of the road. ) when I "take the lane". ( because if pot holes or branches & crap. ) Idiots that dont, bike just dont understant the whole tire size -to- ( road ) surface roughnes, ratio.

.
.
.

StrangeWill
03-14-09, 02:50 AM
I notice a lot of 'take-the-lane' detractors insist you are a sitting duck. I thought of an analogy last night that explains why this is not true. Consider when road crews block off a lane to do repair work. Do cars ever run directly into them? I don't think it happens often. Now add your mirror and situational awareness and you can see how the odds of being struck are nearly ZERO. It doesn't matter if you are going 5 mph on a 45 mph road... Any speed, any road it should not matter.

There is one reason that road work and medical response crews use VEHICLES between them and traffic a lot of the time, and it isn't because ******** strikes are unheard of, or extremely uncommon, but to be exact, are all too common.

Lot's Knife
03-14-09, 04:19 AM
Per hours traveled, cycling is as safe as driving.

genec
03-14-09, 09:09 AM
Per hours traveled, cycling is as safe as driving.

Per hour, the distance traveled is considerably less on a bike than in a car, and transportation safety is usually rated in passenger MILES.

So say one needed to only commute 10 miles... which is safer?

Bekologist
03-14-09, 09:14 AM
Has anyone ever argued for 'always taking the lane'?

yes, there are misguided dumoxes that claim 'multiple narrow same direction lanes' are the best bike infrastructure american bicyclists could ask for!

Purportedly gets all cyclists to 'take the lane' but narrow lanes - especially along roads with high speed differentials twixt cars and bike - in reality encourage curbhugging and sidewalk cycling.

uke
03-14-09, 09:21 AM
Per hours traveled, cycling is as safe as driving.

As noted, transportation ratings are measured in events per miles traveled, not events per hours traveled. If cyclists can't acknowledge the stats when they favor cars, why should drivers acknowledge the stats when they favor cyclists?

RobertHurst
03-14-09, 12:50 PM
A perceptual limitation tends to make slow/not-moving things less noticeable. (This is what allows cop cars to hide in plain site.) Being a much slower object where a driver is accustomed not to expect such things (ie, in the middle of the lane) tends to be unsafe.

This limitation is worse with larger differences in speed (because higher differences mean less time to process and react)....

This is a double-edged sword.

In built-up areas the vast majority of bicyclist collisions involve pedestrians, motor vehicles or other bicyclists that cross or turn into the path of a bicyclist who they failed to notice. The faster the bicyclist is moving, the less time the other party has to notice them and the less likely they will be noticed. Also, the faster the bicyclist is moving the more likely that they will be unable to avoid a crossing or turning vehicle in front of them due to the bicyclist's reaction time and the physics of bicycling.