Electric Bikes - The BEST Electric Bike in the WORLD

There are a few high end ebike companies that make this claim. I started a thread on the Google TF forum, and thought maybe people would comment here:

I decided to post this in a "neutral" forum, not on Opti, not on E+.
It is interesting to look at the claims of both. Is this just marketing hype? Do the companies do a
disservice and create a sense of distrust amounst would be buyers to make such claims?
You have a $9-13K bike and a $4k bike claiming to be the best.
Why?.

It seems more realistic to add nuance to the claims. "The best hub
bike, the best gear drive bike, the best total performance bike. etc"
There is some nuance if you look closer:

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Why the E+ Electric Bike?
After two years of development, and attention to every detail, the E+
Electric Bike is simply the best electric bike in the world. In
performance,elegance, reliability, and safety the E+ is incomparable.
The propulsion and control systems designed by Electric Motion Systems
are completely new, and have no peer in power and reliability. Every
aspect of the E+ electric powered bicycle is engineered for quality.
----------------------------------
The Optibike is simply the best electric bike made.
Unmatched in hill climbing, speed, range, and quality.
-----------------------------------

If one disects these claims, and compares E+ to Opti:
E+ claims
1. The most power (1000W is high for an OEM),
2. Better reliability (no drive chain issues? How is this measured?)
3. Performance (In what? Speed? Range? everything?)
4. Elegance (subjective)
5. Safety (using NiMH vs lithium? Handling? How?)

Opti claims:
1. Unmatched hill climbing (it does have loads of torque via the
gears.)
2. Speed (32-34mph on flats is fast for an OEM with pedalling. I
think the E+ does the same)
3. Range (Hard to argue with 32 miles, 24mph average, or 50 mile
20mph average. However, the new Giant twist is suppose to putter 50
miles, albiet 12-15mph average. Again, nuance the claim)
4. Quality (How does one measure this? Is it the quality of the
paint job? Quality of the OEM components selected? Custom parts?
Assembly? I think Opti can make some claims on parts. E+ would
likely claim equal assembly detail.)

Thoughts, comments?

Note: Optibike has risen to the challenge and answered this directly:
http://blog2.optibike.com/

I googled "E + electric bike" and couldn't find it. Maybe if you gave us the link to that one?

I've already seen the optibike site. It does look pretty amazing and fun, but pricey and not really geared to my needs. I don't really need to race a train over hilly, rocky, sandy terrain. I'd love to do it, but my realistic needs are a little more simple.

MSRP: $13,995.00
And no listing of components other than the shocks and headset.

Sorry dude.
Major pass.

And no listing of components other than the shocks and headset.

Am I wrong to assume you were looking for a reason to reject the Optibike?

You get very nice components for $14k, to be sure. If the web site doesn't have the info you need at the moment (they're about to announce new models and seem to have removed some info), you better believe you can get your questions answered if you email or call the factory.

Even so I won't say the Optibike is a good deal. Not by a longshot. Unfortunately, it is the only deal in its category. What other ebike will go 30+ miles at a decent clip and allow you to ride hard off road (or just up curbs and down stairs) without worrying about destroying it? I'm the kind of rider that looks at a speed bump and sees an opportunity to get some air. Also, the Optibike boasts well over 2000 watts of power during acceleration and a low gear for fast starts off the line. You can't buy that combination of power and agility, and I couldn't build it in a safe, reliable (and water resistant) package.

For me, Optibike made sense. I bought an 800Li and am very glad I did. If something else is better for you, I hope you enjoy it as much!

"What other ebike will go 30+ miles at a decent clip and allow you to ride hard off road (or just up curbs and down stairs) without worrying about destroying it?"

There are a lot of bikes on Endless Sphere that will do this, most of them are user-built though. A lot of the Hi-Power cycles with the heavier duty BMW motors will also suffice.

The BEST is often relative.

You can make threads asking what the best 1-1/8" road headset are, for instance. People know what the purpose is for, and the criteria can be laid out.

When it comes to these bikes for instance, the best? The best for who?

There is no BEST that can be used for e-bikes in a generic sense of the word. For instance, I would never consider using an Optibike over a converted Big Dummy for carrying groceries. An inner city commuter would probably not want a $9,000 theft magnet, so on, so forth.

So far as pure performance, you can obtain that with many different types of equipment and then blend it with components and bicycle choice tailored to ones needs. That seems "best" for me, to get something designed for what you want it for.

Unless these pre-made bicycles offer design in the exact spectrum that the buyer is looking for, then they aren't the best for that buyer. What the Optibike offers is excessive componentry and design which seems to be aimed towards offering looks, high end parts, and fun oriented riding, but it would still lose out in various fields to much cheaper units.

To me the best electric bike in the world would be the one that meets federal and international requirements for electric bicycles in the most efficient and cost effective package. That way the most folks could benefit from their use and do what the purpose of motorized bikes is in the first place. Get folks out of cars for the lions share of their transportation needs.

Why isn't anyone building that instead of overpriced, overbloated and illegal machines? The mentioned bikes remind me too much of the way the auto industry showcases their high dollar high power machines to the public at auto shows but does nothing about the real world. And we all know where that has gotten them.

What good will they do for this? http://www.bike-eu.com/news/3309/30%25-tax-incentive-on-e-bikes-in-italy.html Or for any of the countries here: http://visforvoltage.org/book-page/ev-collaborative-hand-books/1080-electric-bicycle-laws

E bike link:
http://www.e-ms.us/

http://www.optibike.com/images/stories/cart%20main/800rightfacepro.jpg

The Optibike is in fact the "state of the art" in ebikes right now, but you pay for it with it's extreme price.

Eventually we will get the natural "trickle down" and maybe one day you will be able to buy most of what the Optibike has to offer at WalMart for a reduced price.

The main thing is to get out of the hub motors and into the geared bikes... that's probably the one thing that separates the older technologies verses the newer. In the old days people believed that a hub motor was actually the best, but once you get into ebikes and discover how the motors powerband works you realize that AT MINIMUM you need a two speed, one for hills and a second for the flats. (the hub motors can weigh 25 lbs and all that unsprung weight is a serious negative to handling)

The Optibike has an elegance to it that the hub motor does not... it seems "finished" while the older stuff seems crude.

You will have to wait a few years before the technology trickles down (I suspect) but after that we will all never look back. :)

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Note: I personally am running a six speed transmission (derailler) and just recently set a new personal speed record of 58 mph on the flat while still being able to climb hills with ease. Part of that was raw power, but the gears help a lot. As a rule you need about twice as much power in a one speed to equal the performance of a multispeed bike.

Twice... :twitchy:

...so it's worth it to have gears.

Considering that the Optibike has been out for a number of years now and they get more expensive, rather than less, you may not want to hold your breath.

One more time. Electric bikes are restricted by wattage and the use of automatic drivetrains worldwide for use on public access highways. There is an answer on how to work within the system legally, it just won't be a rocketship. But done right it could be a good thing for the years to come.

If you want the type of performance the Optibike offers and beyond just get one of these options:
http://quantya.us/index.php?page=models&content=track or http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s.php and call a spade a spade. The cost is less for both of them also. And ride your bike for fitness instead of trying to turn it in to a motorcycle.

No Clutches Allowed

It's illegal in many states to use a clutch. (this is true in my state)

However, a derailler does NOT require a clutch to operate.

The Optibike does not use a clutch.. so it's legal.

And the power is also limited so that it's legal.

The Optibike is the perfect LEGAL answer to the future of ebikes.


-------------------------------


Many people have gotten that wrong and thought "automatic transmission" meant "one speed", but the law was designed to prevent the use of a clutch. ;)


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The history on this is like the difference between a "manual transmission" car verses an "automatic transmission" car. The manual required a "clutch" and that added complexity means it's a little harder to operate. In my state the mopeds often have "centrifugal clutches" which are seen by the law as "automatic" and not "manual". The spirit of the law was to prevent children from having to know how to operate a clutch on a beginner bike.


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Finally... the biggest issue about something with gears is that the 750 watt legal limit can often translate into a top speed that exceeds the speed allowed in that state. My state allows 30 mph on flat land, so ideally the bike needs to be sold so that the gearing does not allow more that 30 mph at the point of sale.

A speeding ticket on an ebike is a potential risk of you exceed 30 mph.

.

http://homepage.mac.com/awcg/.Pictures/XtraLite/XL1.jpg
Inline motor (not a hub, I get to take advantage of the bike's gearing), plenty of torque, and even with the addition of an Xtracycle Free-Radical and a NuVinci hub I'm in at under two grand. I've had this bike since 2004.

The Opti bike is overpowered to be legal in many areas, and is way overpriced.

Google up Panasonic's electric bikes. More reasonable in every respect.

One more time. Electric bikes are restricted by wattage and the use of automatic drivetrains worldwide for use on public access highways. There is an answer on how to work within the system legally
Does the 400 watt Optibike model qualify as an "answer"? What about the 600 watt version? What about my 800 when I ride it in low power mode (which I use frequently)?

In fact some Optibike models are without a doubt legal in many jurisdictions. These models are very similar to the marginally overpowered 800Li and OB1, though built up with less expensive (though still very high quality) components and motors optimized for lower power. However a majority of customers (including me), choose the higher powered ones. Go ahead and blame me if you like, but I don't fault a company for providing what their customers demand and can legally buy, especially when the customers are as happy with their purchase as I am!

I can't speak for all Optibike owners but I have no interest in a motorcycle, electric or otherwise. The point for me is having a hybrid vehicle that rides like a bicycle, and that's what Optibike provides.

Its not legal if it doesn't follow the speed guidelines. Rather than obtaining a speeding ticket ,you could be legally pursued for riding a vehicle in a different classification. But that's another story.

The thing is, the Optibike isn't "optimal" for everyone. People value things other than raw power. Noise, maintenance, simplicity, the ability to adapt the system to any bicycle the customer wants, cost, "normal" looks, these things are all very important.

Important enough that you see interesting hybridizations of technology in order to obtain different positive aspects of each kind of motor - take the Stokemonkey for instance. It's a system that utilizes the bicycles gearing and has an extremely powerful output, but the designer opted to use an unspoked hub motor to drive it. Why?

Because it gets all of the power of the geared transmissions, but remains dead silent. And people like dead silent. And it can use as many gears as your bicycle can have, not just the rear sprocket as some kits do. Stokemonkey is considered by many to be the BEST Xtracycle compatible electric bike in the world, Just as Optibike claims to be. Its in a completely different spectrum.

You can't just claim "best" in the world.

Safe,
It has nothing to do with a clutch. If you have to manually shift a lever/controller that changes gearing that the motor is attached to that is not automatic in any state that I know of. It is not the same as cars, think scooters and their CVT's instead. Please review the laws I posted earlier. Also I have never seen any state that has laws nor country where electric bikes were allowed more than 20 mph and you will have to come up with more proof than your general idea of what you think is right to convince me.

Unime,
You are just fooling yourself as your Optibike is nothing but an electric motorcycle with pedals and legally comes under the same jurisdiction. We have gone over this before. You and others are getting away with your bikes for now but the more people that get away with it the more it will become apparent to the authorities that something is not right which will only reflect on those that are not as rich or self serving and have to play by the rules and buy WalMart ebikes and make do with them.

I always love the silent mode myself. But I get that on my pedal bike mostly out on the trails however. When I am out in traffic and among pedestrians I don't mind making some noise to alert others to my presence. Not alot, but enough.

And the Stoke Monkey is also non legally compliant due to the fact that it powers the rear gearing via the crankset.

Nice Xtra cycle btw.

I am not a fan of low wattage and low speed. I enjoy a nice romp at speed as much as the next guy. I just see trouble on the horizon unless the laws are changed to accommodate higher wattages and speeds. To best fit within the fabric of urban areas I feel that motor assist bicycles should be allowed to travel up to 35 mph actually to better mesh with traffic. But in order to do so the companies that make these bikes need to step up and do some lobbying or find better ways to fit within the current laws. I don't see that happening but do see lots of flaunting going on that sooner or later will mean trouble.

And the Stoke Monkey is also non legally compliant due to the fact that it powers the rear gearing via the crankset.

Electric bikes are restricted by wattage and the use of automatic drivetrains worldwide for use on public access highways.


I am interested in this statement, in particular. Wattage, yes, it is quite universal, but I seem to have conflicting information on your claims that they are universally restricted by drivetrain design.

Many countries, states, and provinces simply seem to have restrictions on wattage and speed, occasionally other parameters - but drivetrain design is something which is dealt with only in some areas.

For instance, in Canada, the federal guidelines do not include any drivetrain parameters. You can look this up for yourself in the links you have provided, the Canada Gazette mentions several parameters, but the use of gearing is not one of them.

However, some regions make their own rules. Ontario does mention drivetrains, for instance. I believe that you are correct in your statement that stokemonkey (and other such motors) can potentially be illegal, but not in that they are universally so.

I believe that the United States legislation does not mention motor specifics beyond speed and wattage either, and that any exclusions would also be state specific, not national.

There are many other countries which follow similar legislation.

It is not "worldwide", as you claim.

(The current generation of Stokemonkeys are also now speed limited to fall within the most common speed guidelines for North America)

You are just fooling yourself as your Optibike is nothing but an electric motorcycle with pedals

Tell that to the cyclist who passed me riding up a steep road. To be fair, he was very fit and riding a very nice looking racing bike (that may well have been in the Optibike price range), while I was riding for fun/fitness in low power mode.

Also, I can turn off the controller and ride my Optibike on the local bike paths where motorized use is prohibited. Other than being heavy, it handles like like a good mountain bike and is a joy to ride (naturally, there is no cogging torque). That is not the behavior of a motorcycle!


We have gone over this before. You and others are getting away with your bikes for now but the more people that get away with it the more it will become apparent to the authorities that something is not right which will only reflect on those that are not as rich or self serving and have to play by the rules and buy WalMart ebikes and make do with them.
I don't believe I am flagrantly violating any laws, riding my Optibike. My motor's ordinary output power is well within the legal range (750w or 1 hp). If necessary, the firmware could be updated to eliminate the boost during acceleration and prevent the motor from providing power above 20mph when the bike is not being pedaled (though that would not change the performance of my Optibike since I always pedal when traveling fast). Firmware updates are easily done at home and the factory is very responsive to the needs of Optibike owners. There is nothing wrong with riding a powerful ebike, even if it only barely complies with the law. Well defined limits are pretty much the point of laws after all.

I'm sorry if you believe I am some sort of rich jerk out to spoil ebiking for everyone else. I can afford my Optibike because I live modestly, in a two bedroom condominium beside a trail instead of big expensive house. I value outdoor and creative pursuits over the accumulation of posessions. Cycling has been a big part of my life for over 40 years, and I have had a passion for electric motors since I built my first electric assist sailplane around 1980. So far, I have found that other Optibike owners tend to be remarkable people with a passion for cycling.

Honestly, I don't need the lecture about proper behavior. I have spent years as an advocate for human powered recreation (including serving on the board of a national non-profit organization), and have dealt with more use conflicts than I care to recall. At this time, there are few problems where I live (a gold level bicycle friendly city with generally light traffic), but even so I urge all cyclists to ride considerately.

Also, there is no mention of automatic transmissions in US federal definition of a low power electric assist bike [16CFR1512.2] or my state or local laws. My friend, you are misinformed - at least as to the laws that apply where I live.

So what are manufacturers to do? Make bikes for each specific region? Canada is barely a blip on their map. Check out the requirements for the Italian program (http://www.bike-eu.com/news/3309/30%25-tax-incentive-on-e-bikes-in-italy.html) and those for Asia and Japan. They require pedelec (http://connectedcities.eu/showcases/pedelec.html). And considering the fact that the lions share of electric bikes on the planet are made and used in Asia they tend to build them to their requirements. Which is also making bikes for a specific region, yet setting the tone it seems for worldwide acceptance eh? The old Catch 22.

I guess I am cursed with looking at the bigger picture and think that the future of motor assist bicycles lies in a more uniform structure because in the end it will make their manufacture and distribution easier and that will mean more people out and about and getting on with the idea of downsizing our transportation requirements for the good of the future of the planet as a whole. One can always dream, or start stirring the pot and making it really happen.

So what are manufacturers to do? Make bikes for each specific region?

They already do, to a degree. Rather, what they more often do is simply use one kit and tailor the output for the regional laws. Its an easy thing to do.

If you want to see some good examples of highly versatile products, the BionX conversion kit and Ezee line of bikes are great examples. They're designs that can conform to nearly any standard in the world.


Canada is barely a blip on their map.Yes. But the United States is not, and it does not have a universal drivetrain requirement as you seem to have implied.



Check out the requirements for the Italian program (http://www.bike-eu.com/news/3309/30%25-tax-incentive-on-e-bikes-in-italy.html) and those for Asia and Japan. They require pedelec (http://connectedcities.eu/showcases/pedelec.html). Once again, I see no indication on either of the pages you have provided stating that motors must be configured in a certain way. Only that they require speed and wattage to be conformed to, once again. Pedelec is irrelevant to the use of gearing, as this design can be applied regardless. For example, both Stokemonkey and BionX are pedelecs, but with completely different design otherwise.


And considering the fact that the lions share of electric bikes on the planet are made and used in Asia they tend to build them to their requirements. Which is also making bikes for a specific region, yet setting the tone it seems for worldwide acceptance eh? The old Catch 22. Once again, due to the adaptable nature of electronic components, this is easily dealt with. Electric kits can be largely standardized, then trimmed according to local requirements. And even if a manufacturer builds a pedelec and does not include this adaptability, it does not mean that they can not sell it in areas which do not require pedelec design.

Given the fact that 0/4 of the examples I have seen have provided solid evidence of having design requirements excluding gearing on a national level (not withstanding local regulations), I see absolutely no reason to accept statements such as


And the Stoke Monkey is also non legally compliant due to the fact that it powers the rear gearing via the crankset.So far it seems that if there was a reason that designs like this would be illegal, it would be due to speed or wattage, not your aforementioned reasoning. Other restrictions such as needing pedelec design are not crippling to viability. If a motor were restricted because its core design was disallowed, yes. But adding pedelec capability or simply including it by default is a simple task. Many, many kits can do this.


I guess I am cursed with looking at the bigger picture and think that the future of motor assist bicycles lies in a more uniform structure because in the end it will make their manufacture and distribution easier That would mean doing things such as selling e-bikes at 250w, 25kph. IE: selling at the level of the hardest restrictions, such as those you see in the UK or New Zealand. That would considerably hurt sales in areas where restrictions were more lax, particularly if these lower powered units were competing with higher end units conforming to the more lax standards:

IE: Selling an NZ speed / wattage restricted bike in the US against a product with US standards in mind.

This would leave a manufacturer with 2 options:

1. Sell at the low level, knowing that in countries with less restrictions you're selling an underpowered product. Bad business.

2. Sell at an appropriate level for the country in question, but lose having your product available in countries with tighter restrictions. Bad business.

What they are doing now (creating one kit, installing limiting features and performing reasonable modifications to conform to local standards) works just fine. They don't need to start from the ground up in order to make things work. Metaphorically, its more like how it is with our electronics. How about a lamp? US plugs and voltage are different from the UK, but all you need to do is adapt things a bit. You don't need to re-engineer the whole lamp, and in most cases you wouldn't need to re-engineer the e-bike.

Now, let me create a counter proposal: If the only real universal restrictions right now are speed and wattage, why not make the most of it? Discounting motors capable of utilizing variable gearing only highlights how weak a 250w hub motor is, for instance. Now, if you could take the same 250w and drive it through variable speeds, you can create a system that still follows national guidelines (Speed limit), then you can gain additional hill climbing, efficiency and acceleration and still remain in bounds.


and that will mean more people out and about and getting on with the idea of downsizing our transportation requirements for the good of the future of the planet as a whole. One can always dream, or start stirring the pot and making it really happen.More bikes would be nice.

The lines in CO are blurred a bit between ICE and Electric as they are in many states, but it clearly states that they follow HR 727 which is the national standard. But if I was you I would rather be in the motorscooter/motorbicycle class....although it plainly states automatic transmission. The definition of which is: A direct or automatic power drive system which requires no clutch or gear shift operation after the drive system is engaged with the power unit.

The big problem is lack of universal regulations and the differing regs between ICE and electric. As time goes on hopefully these will find equilibrium. But I still feel that those of us that are into this should put our best foot forward at this time in order to gain acceptance. But mainly the manufacturers at this time that need to be setting up for future sales. It is not just the companies mentioned here previously but all the time there are ads that pop up saying "35 mph electric bicycle" etc..

One more time please review CO laws here: http://visforvoltage.org/book-page/ev-collaborative-hand-books/1080-electric-bicycle-laws

Which leads to this:

http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/lcsstaff/2006/comsched/06TLRCPersDevMemo.pdf

Vehicle Definitions
State law establishes the following definitions for motorized and nonmotorized
vehicles (Section 42-1-102, C.R.S.).
Vehicle. A vehicle is any device which is capable of moving itself, or of being
moved from place to place upon wheels or endless tracks. Vehicle includes any bicycle,
but does not include any wheelchair, off-highway vehicle, snowmobile, any farm tractor,
any implement of husbandry designed primarily or exclusively for use and used in
agricultural operations or any device moved by muscular power or moved exclusively over
stationary rails or tracks or designed to move primarily through the air.

Motor vehicle. A motor vehicle is any self-propelled vehicle which is designed
primarily for travel on the public highways and which is generally and commonly used to
transport persons and property over the public highways, but does not include motorized
bicycles, wheelchairs, or vehicles moved solely by human power. Motor vehicle includes
a neighborhood electric vehicle.

The federal government defines a motor vehicle as a vehicle driven or drawn by
mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and
highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line (49 U.S.C. 30102).

Motorscooter and motorbicycle. A motorscooter and motorbicycle are defined as
every motor vehicle designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the
ground, a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimeters, and an automatic
transmission which produces a maximum design speed of not more than
30 miles per hour (mph) on a flat surface.

Motorcycle and motor-driven cycle. A motorcycle is a motor vehicle designed to
travel on not more than three wheels. It does not include a motorized bicycle. A
motor-driven cycle means every motorcycle, including motorscooter, with a motor that
produces up to six-brake horsepower and every bicycle with motor attached, but not trail
bikes, minibikes, go-carts, golf carts, and similar vehicles not approved by the Department
of Revenue for use on public roads or highways.

Federal law defines a motorcycle as a motor vehicle with motive power having a seat
or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in
contact with the ground; and a motor-driven cycle as a motorcycle with a motor that
produces five-brake horsepower or less (49 C.F.R. 571.3).

Neighborhood electric vehicle. A neighborhood electric vehicle is a self-propelled,
electrically powered vehicle that must meet statutory equipment standards, and has a speed
attainable in one mile that does not exceed 25 mph.

Manaul Transmission = Clutch

Automatic Transmission = No Clutch

...in my state the law says:

"Any two-wheeled or three-wheeled device having an automatic transmission and a motor with a cylinder capacity of not more than fifty (50) cubic centimeters, which produces less than three (3) gross brake horsepower, and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than thirty (30) miles per hour on level ground."

And I've even shown the bike to the police and told them what I was doing and they said that it was an automatic transmission because there was no clutch.

Were the police (that are supposed to know the law) wrong?

I'm dealing with concrete reality... I've actually talked with the police about it...

Have you?

What did the policeman say? :notamused:


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My bike has multiple voltage configurations. When I'm running in 24 volt mode I'm 100% legal because my top speed is 30 mph and my range is actually the best. At 48 volts my top speed rises up to about 50 mph and the range is less. At 72 volts my top speed jumps to 58 mph and the range drops to just a couple of miles. So for reasons of practicality (and legality) I tend to stay down in 24 volt mode when I want to go on a long country ride... which is nice in the spring... :)

.

Lower Power - Gears Really Help

The less power you have the more useful the gearing becomes. This is especially true on the hills where you can ride up really steep hills with a heavy bike (loaded with lead batteries if you want) without causing the motor to exert much energy.

When I run my bike in 24 volt mode the peak power is only about 500 watts and on the steepest hills I only go about 12 mph which is just slightly under the peak efficiency.

Gears actually allow the legal limit of power to be used "better" on uphills.

Hub motors are compromise devices... you only come near their efficiency if you can match your speed with the motors natural efficiency. (or throttle twiddle) With gears you can rest assured that you are always able to run at peak efficiency all the time.


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Plus... the bicycle is just SUPPOSED to have multispeed gearing. At least if you are going to have multispeed gearing it's an "offense" of the engineers love of beauty to run a hub motor when you have a full set of beautiful multispeed gears on the bike already. One instinctively thinks: "The gears are already there... they should be used... to overlook them is to be committing some kind of sin."

If nothing else the elegance and beauty of geared ebikes are an argument for them.

The Optibike is a work of art.

One day I hope that a mass produced "optibike clone" will become popular. :love:

.

In case you missed this:

A direct or automatic power drive system which requires no clutch or gear shift operation after the drive system is engaged with the power unit. I didn't just make this up, it is in the regs, maybe not in your town, but it is the proper interpretation.


The regs are written but their interpretation is all over the map and varies from state to state and country to country. If your cops are fine with your rig, more power to you. I don't at all disagree with the fact that gearing helps to make these low hp/wattage rigs more useful. However until the regs are more uniform I will stick with the broad interpretation. You are of course free to believe what you will.

My preference is to be able to pedal along with the motor during its entire range. Best of both worlds. I have achieved this with hub motors no problem. As well as ICE bikes. I like to pedal. But I also like the way I get around town on my MAB. To each his own at this point, but be aware that the future may not be as kind to your way of thinking.

Although I deal with electric, in all fairness I find the laws regarding ICE bikes more favorable and prefer them because they are cheaper to set up and the 200 mpg and unlimited range better suits my needs. So I just hope that any of you that think that electric is the only way about this don't ever ride in anything with an ICE because your idealology would be at stake.

Mabman, you have linked to a state specific law again.

National:


Ebike definition in Colorado follows the HR 727 National Law: 20mph e-power and 1 hp max, 2 or 3 wheels, pedals that work.Regional:


Recently (summer '06) a memo was issued to reduce some technical confusion regarding Colorado Electric bicycle laws: http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/lcsstaff/2006/comsched/06TLRCPersDevMemo.pdfAgain, unless there are regional exclusions such as the one you are indicating, there are no laws on a national level in any of the countries we have discussed so far limiting what design can be applied to the electric drivetrain.

I think if there's anything that needs to be made more standardized, its the US legislation. Its interesting to see how misguided, bloated or ill-informed some of the regional laws are.

Optibike suffers from American Sporty syndrome.

So impractical to pay all that money when most people will hardly use it offroad.

Mabman, you have linked to a state specific law again ... Again, unless there are regional exclusions such as the one you are indicating, there are no laws on a national level in any of the countries we have discussed so far limiting what design can be applied to the electric drivetrain.

Mabman was trying to convince me, since I live in Colorado. The problem is that his evidence is a memo that doesn't support his case (the memo is only a partial list of vehicles, and it mentions motorized bicycles, but does not define them).

I really wish he would move this nonsense to another thread.

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To chickbicyclist:

Sporty, yes, but the Optibike is no SUV. Ebikes are heavy. My Optibike weights 58 pounds, not including rack. Reducing unsprung weight is key to good handling, so full suspension makes perfect sense. Cheap suspensions suffer pedal bob and all sorts of other problems, so Optibike used top quaity parts. It makes sense to me.

Wahhh. Somebody doesn't believe that Optibike is the best bike on the planet so go play in another sand box eh? Get over it and as I said you all had better begin with the lobbying starting at your local level to get motor assist bikes recognized as a viable form of transport. Because the more that hit the streets the more they will draw attention and not all of that will be good because many, as evidenced here, are in it for their own personal gains and could care less what the implications of this mode of transport could be on a global scale.

And no one should be riding motor assist off road. That is a really bad idea.

And no one should be riding motor assist off road. That is a really bad idea.
Get a grip, man. You are losing it!

Lest anyone misunderstand my position, I do not support riding ebikes in areas where they are prohibited. And for goodness sakes, ride carefully, wear protective gear, and understand the risks. But the fact of the matter is my Optibike rides just fine off road, thank you, and I am a big boy and know what I am doing.

There was one incident on my fun ride today, though: I got my shoe wet while riding off road. The extra torque really adds control crossing a silty stream bed! :D

The question has been blurred into price and legality. Let me rephrase the question: If cost and legality were not an issue, what is the BEST electric bike in the world?

comments:
Allen G. - I owned and rode a Giant lite for three years. Commuted to work 25 miles 2x a day. Love it, kept a 16-19mph average. But.... I sold it and got an Optibike 800Li. Now I average 24-25mph and get to work under an hour. (1/2 hour by car)

Opti web site is www.optibike.com
They have the 800Li for 9k, not 13k...still pricey. You can find ALL the components listed there.

Here is how I see it: A high end downhill bike, with similar components can cost 4-5k. Add a custom frame, electric motor and controller and a 20Ahr Li battery ($1200-1500) there you go.

Yes, Best for many will be different, and one reason I posed the question. Too much is not best for all. I can appreciate that. On the other hand, you can't replace the potential of 800W+ human, it will get you there. The brake and suspension give great handling and control. It's a nice ride, fast if you want, or not.

If you want the 15mph, low power, Euro types, go ahead. They are great for hill assist cruising to the pool, exercise. etc. I wanted a commute assist bike, with 20-25mph speeds, safety at those speeds, and range. Opti has all that and lights to boot.

To me the best electric bike in the world would be the one that meets federal and international requirements for electric bicycles in the most efficient and cost effective package. That way the most folks could benefit from their use and do what the purpose of motorized bikes is in the first place. Get folks out of cars for the lions share of their transportation needs.

This is sound logic.



The Optibike is the perfect LEGAL answer to the future of ebikes.

Yes, if money is not an issue, but this is reality, and money is an issue, making it not perfect in my book, hehe sorry. It's great that you can afford one though, that's sweet.


Optibike suffers from American Sporty syndrome.

So impractical to pay all that money when most people will hardly use it offroad.

Exactly! I think it's safe to say almost all bicyclists ride on-road.

Get a grip, man. You are losing it!

Get a Mtn. Bike

Lest anyone misunderstand my position, I do not support riding ebikes in areas where they are prohibited. And for goodness sakes, ride carefully, wear protective gear, and understand the risks. But the fact of the matter is my Optibike rides just fine off road, thank you, and I am a big boy and know what I am doing.

I like to Mtn. Bike too much to see any big boys on the trails because all of them may not know what they are doing

There was one incident on my fun ride today, though: I got my shoe wet while riding off road. The extra torque really adds control crossing a silty stream bed! :D

Wahh.

Ok, I think it was argued that Optibike is street legal in the US (20mph electric only). If that is too fast for your chicken legs, then don't get an Opti or any other e-bike.

OK, once you decide which bike is best, money aside, then yes, we come back to reality and ask if it is worth the VALUE. Is the power, range, stability, handling, braking, lighting, health benefit, etc worth the cost?

To me, the 800Li woul dbe a good deal at $6k. At $9k, we are paying to keep an upstart in business and being a first adapter of a new technology. So, I think it is pricy, but I bought it because NOTHING else could given me the whole package to commute 25 miles 2x a day, at 25+mph average.

Don't tell me HP cycles is the same thing, they are not and their best bikes cost 4.5k. You get what you pay for.

The DIY guys are awesome, and produce cool stuff. But still you have un sprung mass inthe wheels, battery packaging gluge issues, and likely battery life issues due to the inefficiency of the controller/hub system and it's strain on the battery. Are they using the same grade quality of components as Opti? I suspect 20Ahr of quality nano lithiums, 1-2 hub motors, controllers, cycle analyst, etc with a high quality bike will run.. 2.5k + 3k = 5.5k.

The FINAL check of the DIY and OEM bikes is WEIGHT. Opti 80Li is at 58lb, and freewheels awesomely.

Got e-bike?