Fifty Plus (50+) - Pcad Arthritic knee update

1989- ACL reconstruction of right knee, lots of cartilage damage. I start cycling daily to rehab the knee, this starts a 20 year daily riding routine.

2008- knee starts getting stiff, swollen, go back to the knee surgeon, he says it's just getting arthritic. Since Advil and other NSAIDs hadn't helped, I go for Synvisc shots. They work great after I have the shots in Feb. 2008.

Sept. 2008 - knee gets cranky again. Dr. prescribes Meloxicam, a NSAID (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug). That works amazingly well, I take like one pill a week, keeps my knee loose until December 08.

Dec. 2008 - now I start taking the Meloxicam more frequently and it's less effective. I'm 51 years old now by the way.

By late February my knee is bad enough that I've made an appointment for more Synvisc injections. So here's the interesting part. I start reading the label on the Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements at the store. I notice the pricier ones have compounds that are not in the cheaper ones I've been using, mainly MSM. I buy a couple with MSM. I start taking them.

POOF, within 5 days my knee feels GREAT. This was about a month ago, My knee is still FINE. I cancel my appointment for the shots.

That's amazing to me. If it's a Placebo Effect, it's working. But I don't think so. I think it is the MSM.

Hope it continues to work for you. What is MSM?

Which "pricier" brand have you purchased that works better?

Did you ever try the "Bio-Freeze"?

Hope it continues to work for you. What is MSM?

http://www.1backpain.com/all_about_glucosamine_and_msm.htm

MSM

MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) was isolated by Robert Herschler and Dr. Stanley Jacob of the University of Oregon Medical School in the early 80's. Their research showed that MSM is a natural sulfur compound found in all living things. It revealed that MSM one of the most prominent compounds in our bodies, just behind water and sodium. In his research, Dr. Jacob found that the sulfur in MSM, called Sulfonyl, is as safe and is as important as vitamin C in our diet. He observed that it is very different than the bad sulfurs like sulfite, often used to preserve certain foods. MSM is a member of the sulfur family but should never be confused with sulfa drugs, to which some people are allergic. MSM is a natural form of organic sulfur found in all living organisms, including human body fluids and tissues. MSM originates in the ocean and reaches the human food chain through rainfall. MSM is an odorless, water-soluble, white crystalline material that supplies a bio-available form of dietary sulfur. While MSM is normally found in many common foods, including raw milk, meat, fish and a variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains, it is normally lost from our food by heating, storage, processing, drying, cooking and preserving and even washing. MSM has been shown to add flexibility to cell walls while allowing fluids to pass through the tissue more easily. MSM enhances tissue pliability and encourages the repair of damaged skin(6) MSM levels in humans decline with age, resulting in symptoms of fatigue, tissue and organ malfunction, and increased susceptibility to disease(6). In a study of 24 people with athletic injuries, MSM was shown to reduce symptoms by nearly twice as much as those taking placebos, and was able to reduce the average needed visits to the chiropractor by approximately 60%(7). Another preliminary study compared 10 degenerative arthritis suffers taking MSM versus 6 who took a placebo. Results indicate a better than 80 percent control of pain within six weeks for those patients using MSM, while only two patients showed a minimal improvement (less than 20 percent) on the placebo(7). Dr. Lawrence, the medical doctor who headed up these studies, relates that he has treated more than one thousand patients with MSM and believes that it is safer than water. He noted that it appears that the body uses what it requires and flushes out the rest within 12 hours. According to a recent book by Lawrence, Jacob, and Zucker, entitled The Miracle of MSM, MSM can be a natural remedy for osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, Fibromyalgia, tendonitis and bursitis, muscular soreness and athletic injuries, carpal tunnel syndrome, post-traumatic inflammation and pain, heartburn and hyperacidity, headaches and back pain, and allergies. It was also noted that people taking MSM may notice other benefits, including softer skin, harder nails, thicker hair, and softening of scar tissue. An allotted time of 2 - 4 weeks may be needed before significant improvement is seen. It was demonstrated that patients at the Oregon Health Sciences University who have received oral MSM as part of their treatment show no toxic build-up, even after years of ingesting more than 2,000mg of MSM each day(8). MSM can be taken orally in pill or liquid form, and is also found in topical formulas. Topical creams with MSM may not offer much benefit, as the heating process may destroy the bio-availability of the MSM. With MSM's ability to allow fluids to pass through the tissue more easily, it works well with other natural compounds to allow for better absorption.

Hmmm. I'm thinking that you must commute to work by bicycle because, if you operated a car, you could be charged with "Driving While Repaired".

Good luck with the *new drug*. I tried MSM and it bothers my stomach so just the regular G&C for me. :(

http://www.1backpain.com/all_about_glucosamine_and_msm.htm

MSM

MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) was isolated by Robert Herschler and Dr. Stanley Jacob of the University of Oregon Medical School in the early 80's.....

Thanks, Dnvr.

http://www.1backpain.com/all_about_glucosamine_and_msm.htm

MSM

MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) was isolated by Robert Herschler and Dr. Stanley Jacob of the University of Oregon Medical School in the early 80's.


Picked up some "MSM" at the store and will give it a try. I'm allergic to shellfish and the G/C might make me ill. Perhaps the MSM will work.

The orthopedic surgeon I visited a few weeks ago reminded me that Glucosamine chondroitin is not recognized by the experts. :lol: I've been taking it for 10 years now and it works for me. The MSM however didn't seem to help so I stopped it. The same orthopede btw told me the arthritis in my ankles would keep getting worse. No joke, and I'll just keep getting older til I die:roflmao2:

Here's a little further information about MSM:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/msm.html

Not trying to pick a fight, just attempting to balance the reporting.

Regards,
Bob P.

Here's a little further information about MSM:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/msm.html

Not trying to pick a fight, just attempting to balance the reporting.

Regards,
Bob P.

A very good reason to use it would be if it helps the person with the problem.

I start reading the label on the Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements at the store. I notice the pricier ones have compounds that are not in the cheaper ones I've been using, mainly MSM.

Last summer I was doing a lot of crazy rides up to 130+ miles and 9000+ feet of climbing, until I developed a pain in the right knee that sent me to the doctor, who told me to knock off the big climbs and stick to short, flat rides for a awhile. While talking to a co-worker about it, he told me that his doctor had suggested he try Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements with the caveat they were unproven. So I picked up this at Costco:

http://www.naturemade.com/productdatabase/prd_prod.asp?productid=73

And it does contain MSM.

From wiki of MSM:

Osteoarthritis: After several reports that MSM helped arthritis in animal models (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_model), a double-blind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-blind), placebo-controlled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo) study suggested that 1500 mg per day MSM (alone or in combination with glucosamine sulfate) was helpful in relieving symptoms of knee osteoarthritis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteoarthritis)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane#cite_note-7) Kim et al. then conducted a double-blind clinical trial of MSM for treatment of patients with osteoarthritis of the knee. Twenty-five patients took 6 g/day MSM and 25 patients took a placebo for 12 weeks. Ten patients did not complete the study, and intention to treat analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention_to_treat_analysis) was performed. Patients who took MSM had significantly reduced pain and improved physical functioning, without major adverse events. No evidence of a more general anti-inflammatory effect was found, as there were no significant changes in two measures of systemic inflammation: C-reactive protein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-reactive_protein) level and erythrocyte sedimentation rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythrocyte_sedimentation_rate). The authors cautioned that this short pilot study did not address the long-term safety and usefulness of MSM, but suggested that physicians should consider its use for certain osteoarthritis patients, and that long-term studies should be conducted.

Congratulations and thanks for bringing this information to the group. I had heard of the various glucosamine/chondroitin supplements, but the MSM thing is new data for me. Fortunately, I'm free of arthur, joint pain etc. at this point, but I've got this filed in the memory bank just in case.

With what the daily doses of NSAIDS were doing to my kidneys and liver - I'll never touch another one again! The pain is better.

My knee ain't happy - but I sure am!

Another possibility is a difference is glucosamine formulations

A recent study of 40 "complementary and alternative medicines for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia" showed glucosamine HCl (hydrochloride) was ineffective in relieving osteoarthritis. However, the same study showed glucosamine sulphate *is* effective.

Read the study here: http://www.arc.org.uk/news/pressreleases/awareness/CAM.asp There's a link in the bottom of that page to the full report.

My daughter's horse takes glucosamine/chondroitin. Comes in a powder; nice lemony taste.

I usually grab a bit when I'm at the barn...the horse version is much cheaper than the human version (the horse takes his mixed with water and alfalfa pellets - I haven't tried it that way.)

Thanks or the info. My spouse has an arthritic knee and has had the Synvisc and all. If we could find a way to get her riding it would be really nice... so again, thanks.

I took MSM in the form of RegeniCARE (http://us.univera.com/products/restore/regenicare) for a while, when my knees were particularly troublesome.

I also made some ergonomic changes w/ bike and backed off distance for a while, so can't really say if the potion helped with relief, it was a combination, or ....

If the MSM stops workin, you might consider givin Apple Cide Vinegar a try.
Apple Cider Vinegar ( not any other kind), best if it is Organic and with 'The Mother'.
Do at least 1 ACV (apple cider vinegar) drink a day. 2x is better...
8 oz glass of water, add 2 tables spoons of ACV (I gotten to taking a fairly strong dose without measuring).
You can add sweeteners (Fruit, stevia are OK, but not Aspartame, to kill some of the acv taste. But one quickly gets accustomed to the taste.
I had a fairly serious achilles injury, which after a year of various treatments, nothing helped at all.
I started taking ACV daily and within 3 weeks I started to notice small improvement. Within 3 months the achilles was as 'normal' as the other side.
worked for me, and from what investigation shows, a lot of people

I'm taking Osteo Bi-Flex and Flex-a-Min. A bit pricier than the Shop-Rite brand, but they both have MSM and a couple of other compounds like Bosweila Root (God knows what that is).

Have you gotten any relief by icing after a ride?

I'm definitely interested learning about this.

I'm taking Osteo Bi-Flex and Flex-a-Min. A bit pricier than the Shop-Rite brand, but they both have MSM and a couple of other compounds like Bosweila Root (God knows what that is).

The Osteo Bi-Flex is what I'm taking and it has helped me a bunch. I just got off of it for a month and body started to lock up. I wonder if taking the
Flex-a-Min along with the Osteo Bi-Flex is like taking a double dose.

G&C has been my knees' savior for about 7 years now. I once tried G & MSM and my pain partially came back, so went back to G&C.

I've had good success with Walgreen G&C, buy it on their 2 for 1 specials. But am currently taking Osteo Bi-Flex with all three plus joint fluid. Found it on a big sale and bought 3 large bottles.

This is probably our 10th or 12th thread on this same issue, over the past 2.5 years. Not surprising it is a popular topic, in a forum on 50+ cycling. There are controlled medical studies that have shown statistically significant benefits for people who have the right matching conditions.

Good info - thanks.

You've got a few years on me, but I've dealt with knee pain for years, having a very repetitive-strain injury type job. Ramping up cycling miles has helped in the past year and the knees are pretty stable now, but I'll sock away the MSM rec for future reference.

I take flax oil supplements now for general joint pain, btw, based on another rec. Who knows if it works...I'll probably stop taking them when the bottle runs out just to see if there's any difference.

I've had arthritis of both knees for the last 5 years. I've been on MSM, G&C, and Celebrex. Recently it's been getting worse. I checked out something called ArthX and found relief quickly. I got it at Super Supplements and, so far, have been very happy with it.

Elbows and wrists are my problem joints. Tried the Costco Glucosamine-Chondroitin-MSM with minimal effect. Tried Hammer Tissue Rejuvenator, which is those 3 plus some other stuff and noticed a major difference within a couple of days. YMMV.

>>Tried Hammer Tissue Rejuvenator, which is those 3 plus some other stuff <<

Can you tell us what the 'other stuff' is off the label? I get the feeling many of the pricier commercial concoctions (like the stuff I'm taking) have some of the same ingredients...

>>Tried Hammer Tissue Rejuvenator, which is those 3 plus some other stuff <<

Can you tell us what the 'other stuff' is off the label? I get the feeling many of the pricier commercial concoctions (like the stuff I'm taking) have some of the same ingredients...

You can look it up on there web site. I did and I don't know what half the stuff is. I'm having very good luck with the Osteo Bi Flex, so I don't think I'll change.

>>Tried Hammer Tissue Rejuvenator, which is those 3 plus some other stuff <<

Can you tell us what the 'other stuff' is off the label? I get the feeling many of the pricier commercial concoctions (like the stuff I'm taking) have some of the same ingredients...

Well, since it's you asking...

Tissue Rejuvenator
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 4 Capsules
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value *
Glucosamine Sulfate 500mg †
Chondroitin Sulfate 500mg †
MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) 500mg †
Enzyme Blend (peptidase and bromelain, papain, protease, amylase, lipase, cellulase, and phytase) 400mg †
Boswellia Serrata 400mg †
Devils Claw 200mg †
Yucca Root 100mg †
Turmeric (Curcuma longa) Root Extract 100mg †
Quercetin (Saphora Japonica Source) 20mg †
Undenatured Type II Collagen** 5mg †
* The Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet. Your daily values may be higher or lower depending on your calorie needs.
† Daily Value not established.
**UC-II brand undenatured type II collagen (U.S. Patents 5,645.851, 5,637,321, 5,529,786, and 5,750,144). UC-II™ is a trademark of InterHealth N.I.
Other Ingredients: Stabilized Rice Bran, Vegetable Capsules (pullulan and water)

My daughter's horse takes glucosamine/chondroitin. Comes in a powder; nice lemony taste.

I usually grab a bit when I'm at the barn...the horse version is much cheaper than the human version (the horse takes his mixed with water and alfalfa pellets - I haven't tried it that way.)


Glad you mentioned this BB...G/C works well on 50+ critters too. I may have to check the vet section at the local Farm Supply store the next time I'm there...G/C has increased in price by 20% since I started taking it.

The two brand name formulas I purchased are Flex-a-min and Osteo Bi-Flex, they both have:

Glucosamine/Chondroitin
MSM
Bosweilla Serratta Root
Hyaluronic Acid

I'm telling you guys my right knee went from feeling like it need a replacement to feeling normal within 5-7 days of starting on this formula, and I was on pretty big doses of Glucosamine/Chondroitin up until that point. And my knee has remained fine, despite pretty high miles (200-250/week) and hammering since then over the past month. I hope it continues.

Picked up some "MSM" at the store and will give it a try. I'm allergic to shellfish and the G/C might make me ill. Perhaps the MSM will work.

If you look around, you can find "Vegetarian Glucosamine" No shellfish involved. Have to check out the MSM...

The two brand name formulas I purchased are Flex-a-min and Osteo Bi-Flex, they both have:

Glucosamine/Chondroitin
MSM
Bosweilla Serratta Root
Hyaluronic Acid

I'm telling you guys my right knee went from feeling like it need a replacement to feeling normal within 5-7 days of starting on this formula, and I was on pretty big doses of Glucosamine/Chondroitin up until that point. And my knee has remained fine, despite pretty high miles (200-250/week) and hammering since then over the past month. I hope it continues.

That's terrific but has it done anything to correct those hideous cable routing issues?

Apple cider vinegar contains sulfur, like MSM.


If the MSM stops workin, you might consider givin Apple Cide Vinegar a try.
Apple Cider Vinegar ( not any other kind), best if it is Organic and with 'The Mother'.
Do at least 1 ACV (apple cider vinegar) drink a day. 2x is better...
8 oz glass of water, add 2 tables spoons of ACV (I gotten to taking a fairly strong dose without measuring).
You can add sweeteners (Fruit, stevia are OK, but not Aspartame, to kill some of the acv taste. But one quickly gets accustomed to the taste.
I had a fairly serious achilles injury, which after a year of various treatments, nothing helped at all.
I started taking ACV daily and within 3 weeks I started to notice small improvement. Within 3 months the achilles was as 'normal' as the other side.
worked for me, and from what investigation shows, a lot of people

Patencad are you not the clown who poophas rest days, suprise ,suprise you have worn your knees out. Read Dr. John E. Sarnos book it could be all in your head, you seem really obessive, a perfect canidate.

Well, at least the resurrected thread was not 5 years old as some are:


03-18-09 02:41 PM
03-01-10 03:39 AM

I also use glucosamine with MSM, plus I take extra MSM. My surgeom recommends both! I'm going in tomorrow for some knee repair so have been off all ths supliments for a week. Both knees are a little creaky now!

I was thinking about apple cider vinegar in a bit different context today. Funny it should pop up in a cycling forum.

Here in Kentucky ACV has achieved mythical qualities and is touted as a cure of everything from lumbago to colitis.

Maybe it is. Who knows.

The reason I was pondering it is that the insurance companies are refusing to pay for most any medication these days without putting one of my employees on hold for 90 minutes for pre-approval. It's killing us.

I'll just have to start recommending ACV to everybody for everything.

It'll save a ton of money for somebody.

Sorry to hear about the knee, oh the joys of living an athletic life. My surgeries nearly parallel yours, CRAP!

I use an AMWAY product called Joint Health Twist Tubes. (Don't get carried away on the word joint now) It helps the shoulders and knees. The hips are ceramic, so they always feel great.

If you get to Vegas we have a twice monthly golf group called the Gimpy Golfers. You must have had something replaced, transplanted, by passed or reattached to play. Bring your bike and clubs.

I finally found out a month ago that the knee pain I have been experiencing is from arthritis. It took a month to get through the prescreen from my primary care physician (a waste of time but required by insurance company) and through the initial meet and greet with the specialist, the MRI and the conclusion (of MRI) meeting with suggested form of treatment also by the specialist. Since then I've been waiting a month to have the insurance company tell me what they think I should do for treatment. The specialist poo-pooed cortisone shots in favor of something called euflexia, the insurance company wants to see if the cortisone shots will work first before springing for the euflexia. So I'm at the two month point in this and I am starting cortisone shots today. My hope is to have some sort of progress by the end of spring. Ah the joys of corporate-healthcare.

I finally found out a month ago that the knee pain I have been experiencing is from arthritis. It took a month to get through the prescreen from my primary care physician (a waste of time but required by insurance company) and through the initial meet and greet with the specialist, the MRI and the conclusion (of MRI) meeting with suggested form of treatment also by the specialist. Since then I've been waiting a month to have the insurance company tell me what they think I should do for treatment. The specialist poo-pooed cortisone shots in favor of something called euflexia, the insurance company wants to see if the cortisone shots will work first before springing for the euflexia. So I'm at the two month point in this and I am starting cortisone shots today. My hope is to have some sort of progress by the end of spring. Ah the joys of corporate-healthcare.

Have you tried apple cider vinegar?

Have you tried apple cider vinegar?
No, in fact until today when I read this thread; I had never heard of apple cider vinegar nor its healing properties.

Started SAMe, which claims to help with joints. I like it.

It works for Bailey, not kidding!