Living Car Free - Economy better, I'm not happy

I was in Cuba for a cycling vacation in February. There's much I don't understand and I will agree with those who say Cuba has more than its share of problems.

At the same time, I noticed a richness in that country and I felt a bit of envy. The people may be poor but they are not impoverished or destitute. They have a sense of community that we in Canada and the U.S. are lacking. One could walk down a dark alley in the middle of the night and still be perfectly safe. Violent crime is rare and even the beggars and panhandlers are polite.

More importantly, they have contentment. People would often ask me where I live and when I told them about Canada, they only commented about how cold it gets in winter. They didn't talk about our standard of living or the many luxuries we enjoy.

I would love to see those qualities of community, safety and contentment closer to home. I don't wish a recession on anyone, but if that's what it takes for us to experience a happier lifestyle, then maybe it's not an entirely bad thing.

Your perspective is interesting. And I will not get into the many posts we would end up with quoting people why we have a different insight. I have an indicator of how things are in any country and to contentment and Cubans do not meet the litmus test. If people are willing to risk their life on homemade rafts to escape contentment and community they are not happy. People from the US are not trying to swim to Cuba in old Car inner tubes yet they are a problem for the US with people from Cuba. In fact people from other countries in the area are not trying to swim to Cuba and there are places closer than Florida.

My measuring stick for contentment is where the people flee to. In a country experiencing a revolution I look to where the common people flee from and to and judge the latter to be what they are not content with. There is a big difference between a forced sense of community and one of choice. And that is the biggest fear for a changing Cuba. With the collapse of the USSR the sense of community of the Russian people collapsed with it and crime grew at unprecedented rates. Old hatreds between people in Bosnia, Croatia and other areas came to the surface and the system was very similar to the one in Cuba. Spend some time in Florida and experience the rich sense of community the Cubans there have and ask them why they left. But in this case we will have to disagree.

There is no suggested fix in the post

You did not ask for suggestions about a fix! You asked what could be bad about an improving economy.


only the indication that a down turn would be good.

No way! I explained why a downturn could be bad - I did not say that a downturn would be a good thing.


Good for future generations? Good for the world? Good for a tree newt? Yes we may learn something from it but the suffering will be hard for any to take. If an improved economy happens it doesn't mean things have to be bad. Once we pulled out of the depression no one was sad as our economy got better. By the way growth is necessary for a healthy economy. Without growth you can’t support your population. And only the developed world seems to be interested in the size of its population. We just forgot that growing too fast wasn’t the best thing either.

"Without growth you can’t support your population." - Merely repeating a generally accepted meme does not make it factually any more correct or valid. The earth's population by and large thought the world was flat for a very long time.

In addition, I think you are conflating the issues of an improving economy and growth.

Improvements in the economy would mean that it is more robust, has regulations that actually work, is more efficient, etc. Growth on the other hand is an entirely separate issue. I strongly disagree that infinite growth is required for a population. An ever expanding population would indeed require an expanding economy - but you did not qualify your statement.

In a steady population, would you find a steady-state economy offensive?


Sure our system has its problems but it is so much better than any other system we have ever seen. What I hear in complaints about our recovering from this recession is a desire for human misery.

A desire for human misery? Not from me, especially with regard to people that are not in developed countries. There is a small sub-set of the population for whom I would have no pity if they were by some miracle to end up on the receiving end of the misery they have caused or contributed to: for example, the catholic church and its continued denial that condoms would help to reduce the suffering caused by HIV.


... I look at this problem in our economy like I would look at a household that invested badly.

Can you truly say that Wall Street is any different to a Roulette Wheel? In a civilized society investing would be a synonym for saving. What we have today is a travesty.


Yes they should have been more careful ...

Putting greed aside, do you honestly believe that people could have been more careful when they put money into 401k, ISA, Roth accounts, etc. I have no sympathy for those that lost because of greed. I have every sympathy for people that paid artificially inflated prices for their homes because of a Wall Street / Fannie Mae / Freddy Mac induced housing bubble.

There is a limit to how careful people can be. Due diligence can only be taken so far. There is a legal duty that exists between the provider of a service and the consumer - the provider is generally held to a higher standard and is expected to resist the temptation to screw the consumer. This will always be the case, until everyone is a combination of qualified attorney, doctor, car mechanic, plumber, electrician, etc. Alas, in today's "so much better than any other system we have ever seen" the consumer (investor) is treated worse than cattle about to be slaughtered.


... but they should not turn on each other and desire that everyone live like the homeless till they learn their lesson.

Agreed.


The assumption is made that we all were gross consumers and we all over extended ourselves and that simply is not the case. Some of us followed the rules and did not buy over our heads nor invest in risky markets. Some of us paid our bill and paid off our debts and put our kids through school.

In my opinion, those that were not "gross consumers" are in a tiny minority. The indirect proof is in the news on a daily basis. Surely, if the majority had not been gross consumers, then we would not be drowning in our own excrement.


To us an improved economy is a great deal. To us it is why our founding fathers formed this country. A roof over our heads, food for our families and labor we can be proud of.

That is what the rest of the world wants and we have no reason to feel guilty and wish for our destruction because we were close to getting it.

I do not wish for our destruction. I would just like to know what 'improved' means, and what is the true long term price - for all of us, not just Americans, or people in the developed world.


One thing history teaches us however, when a nation with the resources we have feels it is going to lose it all bad things happen, far worse than global warming and third world poverty.

Still I will pull for economic recovery and the well being of my neighbors and their families. I just can’t bring myself to wish for a downturn. But this is all conjecture at this point. I have yet to reach the point of panic. I worry more about volcanoes, earth quakes, big storms and disease. Things we can’t control.

I'm tired of you thinking that I wish for a downturn. We have one whether we like it or not. My preference is that we strive to live sustainably. That does not mean curb-side recycling, or more efficient cars - it means a carbon (and other pollution) neutral foot print. Taken to an extreme this would mean visiting somewhere and seeing no evidence of humans even though they were present - this does not mean living like animals hiding in the undergrowth.

I was in Cuba back in the '80s, Robert, and I agree that the island has many problems, but I don't see too many Cubans risking their lives to get to the Dominican Republic, Haiti or any other Third World country, so using your logic, that means their situation is just as good, if not better, than that of their counterparts in those places, right?

I was in Cuba back in the '80s, Robert, and I agree that the island has many problems, but I don't see too many Cubans risking their lives to get to the Dominican Republic, Haiti or any other Third World country, so using your logic, that means their situation is just as good, if not better, than that of their counterparts in those places, right?

But they sure can't be content if they are willing to risk death to escape Cuba. If it were something to be desired people would be trying to get into Cuba not away from it. If our lifestyle was abhorrent people would not be trying to get in to our country anyway they can. A sense of contentment and community doesn’t include escape. Once Castro dies I predict Cuba will do pretty much what Russia has done and start on the road towards capitalism. I may be wrong but I seriously doubt if Cuba is high on anyone list of a place they would most like to retire. What do you think?
A little bit how BBC reports it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/727931.stm

How it was reported 10 years ago.
http://www.cartadecuba.org/Life%20in%20Red.htm

I encourage you to read this article and tell me what you think. No judgment just a reason to question some of the things I have heard here about Cuba.

I have heard some of the same things about Africa and Kenya before I went there. They do have community and I loved the people but I wouldn’t want to live there. Almost all of the people I met would have been willing to live here. Even more so if they had been here. So that is a reason some of us might disagree on the “better” or contented life in Cuba. And their economy is worse than ours.

I'm tired of you thinking that I wish for a downturn. We have one whether we like it or not. My preference is that we strive to live sustainably. That does not mean curb-side recycling, or more efficient cars - it means a carbon (and other pollution) neutral foot print. Taken to an extreme this would mean visiting somewhere and seeing no evidence of humans even though they were present - this does not mean living like animals hiding in the undergrowth.

Whatever you wish you just sound so bitter and distrustful. Maybe it is just my perception but that is how it sounds. Everything we read indicates that the bad home loans were a minority of the total and yet you equate those as a majority? NPR is anything but a Conservative shill for Wall Street. They report that of the 51 million first mortgages in the US only about 1.4 million were bad loans they report fewer than 3 percent of the homes are in foreclosure.

So yes I hope the economy improves because a vast majority of people in the country did follow the rules and not try to buy homes they couldn’t afford. Painting all of us gross consumers is like painting all blonds as dumb and all environmentalists as tree huggers. The oceans can be farmed and alternative fuels can be found but not if the economy doesn’t improve.

Only developed nations have the resources to work on the solution. Only the developed nations even attempted to control their population and tried to reach zero population growth. So if we are worried on the one hand about 9 billion people occupying the face of the planet then we will have to have an economy healthy enough to support it. Nothing the traditional socialists have ever offered has proven successful at improving the life of their populace so until something better comes along we just might as well pull for our economy to improve so that the most generous nation in the world can continue to be just that. Because generosity and charity sure isn’t on the list of things most other countries do as well as we do.

My source for NPR.

Whatever you wish you just sound so bitter and distrustful. Maybe it is just my perception but that is how it sounds. Everything we read indicates that the bad home loans were a minority of the total and yet you equate those as a majority? NPR is anything but a Conservative shill for Wall Street. They report that of the 51 million first mortgages in the US only about 1.4 million were bad loans they report fewer than 3 percent of the homes are in foreclosure.

So yes I hope the economy improves because a vast majority of people in the country did follow the rules and not try to buy homes they couldn’t afford. Painting all of us gross consumers is like painting all blonds as dumb and all environmentalists as tree huggers. The oceans can be farmed and alternative fuels can be found but not if the economy doesn’t improve.

Only developed nations have the resources to work on the solution. Only the developed nations even attempted to control their population and tried to reach zero population growth. So if we are worried on the one hand about 9 billion people occupying the face of the planet then we will have to have an economy healthy enough to support it. Nothing the traditional socialists have ever offered has proven successful at improving the life of their populace so until something better comes along we just might as well pull for our economy to improve so that the most generous nation in the world can continue to be just that. Because generosity and charity sure isn’t on the list of things most other countries do as well as we do.

My source for NPR.

You confuse healthy economy with ever-rising living standards that can by no stretch of the imagination be sustained for more than a few years. At some point we must begin to understand the difference between "more" and "better."

If you are interested in this topic (which I doubt), I reccommend that you read "Deep Economy" by Bill McKibben (http://www.billmckibben.com/). Until you do, I really can't take your arguments seriously. You are well versed in one side of the issue and blindly ignorant of the other side. Sorry.

Nothing the traditional socialists have ever offered has proven successful at improving the life of their populace so until something better comes along we just might as well pull for our economy to improve so that the most generous nation in the world can continue to be just that. Because generosity and charity sure isn’t on the list of things most other countries do as well as we do.


You use the term "socialism" the same way we used the term "communist" 40 years ago. It's basically a weasel-word that denotes everything that isn't what is currently American. My understand of socialist ideas would include concepts like universal medical care, unemployment benefits and the notion that my success or riches are worth nothing if they detriment the society as a whole.

If my notion of socialism holds true, I would claim there is a lot of proven success out there, in Canada, in Europe, in many places...

you use the term "socialism" the same way we used the term "communist" 40 years ago. It's basically a weasel-word that denotes everything that isn't what is currently american. My understand of socialist ideas would include concepts like universal medical care, unemployment benefits and the notion that my success or riches are worth nothing if they detriment the society as a whole.

If my notion of socialism holds true, i would claim there is a lot of proven success out there, in canada, in europe, in many places...

+1

You confuse healthy economy with ever-rising living standards that can by no stretch of the imagination be sustained for more than a few years. At some point we must begin to understand the difference between "more" and "better."

If you are interested in this topic (which I doubt), I reccommend that you read "Deep Economy" by Bill McKibben (http://www.billmckibben.com/). Until you do, I really can't take your arguments seriously. You are well versed in one side of the issue and blindly ignorant of the other side. Sorry.

You mistake my attitude for one that doesn't care about the other side. I was a Poli Sci major so my reading took more of the form of what governments do rather that ideology or theory or even economy. I have maybe fifteen years of the periodical Foreign Affairs and have read insights as to what social programs work and what it cost the countries that apply them.

I do know the difference between a social program provided by a capitalist country and a socialist one. I have seen firsthand the misery of poverty in third world countries. This isn’t theory to me it is reality. Life in Cuba for instance might be sustainable, but over the long run it isn’t the kind of life worth living. That is more like survival with no joy for the mind. I know for instance that without a very preferential treatment from Venezuela Cuba couldn’t even afford the oil they use now. They more or less indenture some of their medical personnel to work in Venezuela to pay for 100,000 barrels of oil a day. I won’t even get into Cuba’s importing and exporting in human trafficking.

So that isn’t an economy I would call an improvement would you? It isn’t as if I haven’t had plenty of more liberal reading material in my home. I would dare to guess I have more copies of Mother Jones cross my coffee table than you can imagine. I have read books by alternative economists and all it has done for me is make me wonder why these systems aren’t applied anywhere and why so many that are have failed? It isn’t like I need another book to explain what real happiness should be.

I have asked what other economy is working better to advance the human race than what we know as the free market. Don’t show it to me in a book show it to me in life. Show me a government a nation you or I would want to live in. Show me an economy that works as you would like it to work. Until I see one I will be just as happy if this one improves. All I am saying is, I disagree with the Ops original post. Take me serious or not makes little difference.

I have asked what other economy is working better to advance the human race than what we know as the free market. Don’t show it to me in a book show it to me in life. Show me a government a nation you or I would want to live in. Show me an economy that works as you would like it to work. Until I see one I will be just as happy if this one improves. All I am saying is, I disagree with the Ops original post. Take me serious or not makes little difference.

So what is a free market? If you preach market freedom, then heavily subsidize your agricultural sector... is that a free market system? If you serendipitously raise tariffs against other nation's goods, like Brazilian sugar, how is that a free market?

Sometimes I think our description of our system is way out of sync with what the system really is...

I fondly recall my youth when the wisdom was that a communist system of government would mean that each family would need 2 bread winners.

Is a democratic government with a free market system that has a strong social program not a socialist nation?

So what is a free market? If you preach market freedom, then heavily subsidize your agricultural sector... is that a free market system? If you serendipitously raise tariffs against other nation's goods, like Brazilian sugar, how is that a free market?

Sometimes I think our description of our system is way out of sync with what the system really is...

I fondly recall my youth when the wisdom was that a communist system of government would mean that each family would need 2 bread winners.



Is a democratic government with a free market system that has a strong social program not a socialist nation?

I rather doubt if you expect a response from me on that question. Because we would end up asking about taking from people who work to give to people who don't. Maybe any other number of off topic questions rather than about being sad that the economy is improving or not.

All I am trying to say is I simply can’t bring myself to be unhappy if the economy improves and my fellow citizens receive some breathing room. If employment improves I shall not be sad. I would even be happy if manufacturing returned to the US. Most likely isn’t going to happen but it would make me smile. I know some of these topics are tossed out there to get dialog but I can’t even say I am not happy to see the economy improve. It would leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I know far too many people who are out of work and far too many business owners looking at shutting down. Do I believe we as a nation need to do better in developing a system that in more stable? Yes I do. Do I believe that we will ever get there if our economy doesn’t improve? Not a snowman’s chance in the desert in the summer. If someone was to ask me why I would say, because human nature is such that we as a nation will grab at anything to avoid another depression. And the system we come up with just might be worse than what we already have.

If someone was to ask me why I would say, because human nature is such that we as a nation will grab at anything to avoid another depression. And the system we come up with just might be worse than what we already have.

There is no such thing as "human nature," there are exceptionally few human universals. The few that do exist are so mundane that they are hardly very interesting to study. It is not human nature to grab at anything to avoid another depression. That is a choice that we all have made as a society here. The choice is not the same elsewhere.

Many would say that it is human nature to try to defend and protect ones own life. Yet, people commit suicide for a whole universe of reasons from political, social, personal, revenge, attention, you name it! I dont like it when people say that something that is true here in the US is "human nature."

There is no such thing as "human nature," there are exceptionally few human universals. The few that do exist are so mundane that they are hardly very interesting to study. It is not human nature to grab at anything to avoid another depression. That is a choice that we all have made as a society here. The choice is not the same elsewhere.

Many would say that it is human nature to try to defend and protect ones own life. Yet, people commit suicide for a whole universe of reasons from political, social, personal, revenge, attention, you name it! I dont like it when people say that something that is true here in the US is "human nature."

Ok, I will not refer to it as human nature. But Freud’s Ego, super ego and Id must really anger you. :D So there must be some other explanation for China's slide towards consumerism. :eek:

There are things that we wish would be and there are things that are in the world. Survival is learning to live with what is. What other explanation can we have for how a society that had a lifestyle that some would have said was more sustainable to one that we see the nations of China and India heading for now?

Ok, I will not refer to it as human nature. But Freud’s Ego, super ego and Id must really anger you. :D So there must be some other explanation for China's slide towards consumerism. :eek:

There are things that we wish would be and there are things that are in the world. Survival is learning to live with what is. What other explanation can we have for how a society that had a lifestyle that some would have said was more sustainable to one that we see the nations of China and India heading for now?

That is indeed the question of our time. However, I would point out that there is a very strong ant-consumer culture growing in the US and other Western cultures. Consumerism, like many other things, is just and idea. One that has grown and been taken up. 40,000 plus people from around the world make the trek out to burning man every year to ESCAPE consumerism and create a gift economy. Much like the victorian era upper class assumed that their society was the pinnacle of social evolution, the US assumes that their society is what everyone els is or should be striving for. China wants more personal freedom but one thing that has become obvious is that they DONT want to become Americans!

Anyways, I am sorry if I was nit picky about your word choice, in general i think you and I agree on a lot of issues, and I respect your opinion.

That is indeed the question of our time. However, I would point out that there is a very strong ant-consumer culture growing in the US and other Western cultures. Consumerism, like many other things, is just and idea. One that has grown and been taken up. 40,000 plus people from around the world make the trek out to burning man every year to ESCAPE consumerism and create a gift economy. Much like the victorian era upper class assumed that their society was the pinnacle of social evolution, the US assumes that their society is what everyone els is or should be striving for. China wants more personal freedom but one thing that has become obvious is that they DONT want to become Americans!

Anyways, I am sorry if I was nit picky about your word choice, in general i think you and I agree on a lot of issues, and I respect your opinion.

More than likely we do.;)

Have you been to burning man? It turns into a giant party. There are whole sections of the event I would avoid like a bad part of a bad town. But I do have a friend that sells used bikes for burning man. After the event he sometimes picks up some of the abandoned bikes and resells then the next year. :thumb:

I have attended such events like didgefest when it was in Joshua tree and now that it moved to North Fork and Indigenous in early August in Oregon. I am planning on giving it a try this year even if it is all vegetarian. I can survive a week of no meat. All of these events have been going on for years and I have attended many of them for at least the last 8. As an aside I happen to be rather found of the djembe.:D

If you want honesty I find it a refreshing escape for the few weeks a year I can join in a non competitive community. I find Burning man a bit more overwhelming than peaceful. But it is also a bit like they say Chinese food is. After an hour you are hungry again. Within a few days of such events I realize the world hasn’t changed and values haven’t changed. Car free is not the first alternative community I have had contact with. What I suspect is that any change we see will never come from outside trying to force our society into seeing the error of their ways. I believe it will have to come from inside. Inside the system, inside the economy and inside ourselves. I just happen to believe that if the economy doesn’t improve people will try to do anything they can just to survive. And people trying to survive are less likely to look at new alternatives than ones that have survived a scare and have recovered. Spending time working under social services at a hospital might give insight into human, how should I say this, reactions to stress. At least it may color my view of what will and won’t work to get an attitude change.

All I am trying to say is I simply can’t bring myself to be unhappy if the economy improves and my fellow citizens receive some breathing room. If employment improves I shall not be sad. I would even be happy if manufacturing returned to the US. Most likely isn’t going to happen but it would make me smile. I know some of these topics are tossed out there to get dialog but I can’t even say I am not happy to see the economy improve. It would leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I know far too many people who are out of work and far too many business owners looking at shutting down. Do I believe we as a nation need to do better in developing a system that in more stable? Yes I do. Do I believe that we will ever get there if our economy doesn’t improve? Not a snowman’s chance in the desert in the summer. If someone was to ask me why I would say, because human nature is such that we as a nation will grab at anything to avoid another depression. And the system we come up with just might be worse than what we already have.
Our present economic system needs to change and perhaps this recession will be a time of transition for us.

A number of countries, most notably the United States, have moved from manufacturing good quality useful items to selling everything imaginable to satisfy our every whim. A lot of those items are imported from countries where workers are willing to earn less money. And a lot of our consumer items are built to either wear out or become obsolete, which puts us in the trap of needing to buy more, just to keep going.

We've become a consumer society rather than a producer society. The stimulus cheques which were issued last year are an example of this. The unwritten implication was that those who received the cheques were supposed to spend the money to keep the economy going. A cynical view (although perhaps an accurate one) would say our value as people or as citizens is now reduced to our ability and willingness to purchase, to consume.

Return to producing well-built, good quality items and the customers will buy them. A business which gives good value for the money spent will thrive, even in a sluggish economy. If we can learn this from the recession, then we will have gained.

I don't wish hardship on anyone and I don't want to see a bottomed-out economy or a state of continual poverty. But something has to change.

Our present economic system needs to change and perhaps this recession will be a time of transition for us.

A number of countries, most notably the United States, have moved from manufacturing good quality useful items to selling everything imaginable to satisfy our every whim. A lot of those items are imported from countries where workers are willing to earn less money. And a lot of our consumer items are built to either wear out or become obsolete, which puts us in the trap of needing to buy more, just to keep going.

We've become a consumer society rather than a producer society. The stimulus cheques which were issued last year are an example of this. The unwritten implication was that those who received the cheques were supposed to spend the money to keep the economy going. A cynical view (although perhaps an accurate one) would say our value as people or as citizens is now reduced to our ability and willingness to purchase, to consume.

Return to producing well-built, good quality items and the customers will buy them. A business which gives good value for the money spent will thrive, even in a sluggish economy. If we can learn this from the recession, then we will have gained.

I don't wish hardship on anyone and I don't want to see a bottomed-out economy or a state of continual poverty. But something has to change.

A bold suggestion that will raise the eyebrows of many on both sides of the political spectrum. Are you then suggesting we return manufacturing back to the US as much as possible? I can agree but I am sure many will not. On face value it sounds a lot like Nationalism. I wonder if it would work?

You mistake my attitude for one that doesn't care about the other side. I was a Poli Sci major so my reading took more of the form of what governments do rather that ideology or theory or even economy. I have maybe fifteen years of the periodical Foreign Affairs and have read insights as to what social programs work and what it cost the countries that apply them.

I do know the difference between a social program provided by a capitalist country and a socialist one. I have seen firsthand the misery of poverty in third world countries. This isn’t theory to me it is reality. Life in Cuba for instance might be sustainable, but over the long run it isn’t the kind of life worth living. That is more like survival with no joy for the mind. I know for instance that without a very preferential treatment from Venezuela Cuba couldn’t even afford the oil they use now. They more or less indenture some of their medical personnel to work in Venezuela to pay for 100,000 barrels of oil a day. I won’t even get into Cuba’s importing and exporting in human trafficking.

So that isn’t an economy I would call an improvement would you? It isn’t as if I haven’t had plenty of more liberal reading material in my home. I would dare to guess I have more copies of Mother Jones cross my coffee table than you can imagine. I have read books by alternative economists and all it has done for me is make me wonder why these systems aren’t applied anywhere and why so many that are have failed? It isn’t like I need another book to explain what real happiness should be.

I have asked what other economy is working better to advance the human race than what we know as the free market. Don’t show it to me in a book show it to me in life. Show me a government a nation you or I would want to live in. Show me an economy that works as you would like it to work. Until I see one I will be just as happy if this one improves. All I am saying is, I disagree with the Ops original post. Take me serious or not makes little difference.

As a political scientist, how much of the misery in Cuba and Africa is due to their exploitation as colonies and post-colonial dependencies of the "capitalist" European and North American countries?

Cuba, for example, was a Spanish colony for hundreds of years, then an American puppet for many years, and a Soviet puppet for many years after that. Since their independence in about 1990, Cuba has been a pariah among nations with the most severe trade restrictions in world history--imposed and enforced by the "free trade" "market-based" United States. These facts alone could account for most of Cuba's current poverty.

Much of the prosperity of the US and Europe is a direct result of the exploitation of other countries (not to mention our exploitation of nature and non-renewable resources). Capitalism and free markets were secondary contributors to our wealth.

Return to producing well-built, good quality items and the customers will buy them. A business which gives good value for the money spent will thrive, even in a sluggish economy. If we can learn this from the recession, then we will have gained.

I don't wish hardship on anyone and I don't want to see a bottomed-out economy or a state of continual poverty. But something has to change.I could not agree more. My last visit to a big box store had me horrified. It's all cheep junk. After some thought, I remember in the late 90's when economists were wondering why we could have such low interest rates and low inflation. Truthfully, we've hidden inflation by producing poorer quality goods. Here's what I mean:

For example, I was looking for bath towels recently. The last time I bought bath towels they were about $10/ea. And they have lasted almost 10 years. The towels today were actually cheaper, about $7/ea. But they were so thin you could just about see through them. Maybe last 10 washings! So, techincally we've had no inflation over the last 10 years; towels cost less money, right? Not really if I have to buy them three times, yet our measure of "inflation" is zero.


As a political scientist, how much of the misery in Cuba and Africa is due to their exploitation as colonies and post-colonial dependencies of the "capitalist" European and North American countries? I don't think much. Consider that Japan and Germany were leveled in WWII. Both were industrially on their feet and independent of aid in less than 20-years; and today are world industrial leaders. Why can't Cuba and Africa lift out of poverty?


Capitalism and free markets were secondary contributors to our wealth. So, would you contend that the USSR didn't survive because we are better at exploiting other countries economically?

I don't think much. Consider that Japan and Germany were leveled in WWII. Both were industrially on their feet and independent of aid in less than 20-years; and today are world industrial leaders. Why can't Cuba and Africa lift out of poverty?

So, would you contend that the USSR didn't survive because we are better at exploiting other countries economically?

Japan and German were both leveled that is true but they also both had huge amounts of aid given to them. German and Japan were both occupied until the point were there infrsutructure was almost completely functional again. The victors of that war had a vested interest in rebuilding german and japan and as you may have noticed they are now heavily aligned with us...:rolleyes:

Japan and German were both leveled that is true but they also both had huge amounts of aid given to them. German and Japan were both occupied until the point were there infrsutructure was almost completely functional again. The victors of that war had a vested interest in rebuilding german and japan and as you may have noticed they are now heavily aligned with us...
True, we certainly gave them aid. And that aid was very effective and transformative. They have continued to succeed long after aid ended. Could it be that those nations have been so successful because they are aligned with the US? How does that make the US exploitive?

On the flipside, the US has, and continues, to pour aid into many third-world nations. We gave grain to the USSR in the 70s. Why isn't aid to these nations effective? There must be some key fundamental difference.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't understand the self-loathing and schadenfreude that seems to be in vogue these days. If America is so terrible, and other places so good then people should vote with their feet. There are no barriers to leaving the US. Yet people aren't lining up to leave. We observe just the opposite. Sure, we have our own unique set of problems in the States. I agree consumerism has grown excessive. But I'd rather see people working to solutions that keep the unique concepts of America intact. There's too many good things about our way to simply abandon it. Destorying (or hoping for the destruction) of the wealth of the citizens making them poor so they consume less seems very draconian to me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't understand the self-loathing and schadenfreude that seems to be in vogue these days. If America is so terrible, and other places so good then people should vote with their feet. There are no barriers to leaving the US. Yet people aren't lining up to leave. We observe just the opposite..


I left :)

I left :)
And you don't plan on returning? How long do you think you can survive as a slacker in Korea after your current contract runs out?
When do you plan to emigrate North where the government hasn't been fooled/bought into alignment with the evil U.S.? North Korea probably has a special place for dreamers like yourself. You also won't have to deal with people wasting their money on cars and other frivolous capitalist nonsense, eh?

My last visit to a big box store had me horrified. It's all cheep junk. After some thought, I remember in the late 90's when economists were wondering why we could have such low interest rates and low inflation. Truthfully, we've hidden inflation by producing poorer quality goods.
The worst example of this is in the sale of vehicles. A new vehicle will probably cost the equivalent of take-home wages for six months to one year. If someone borrows to buy that vehicle, even at low interest, the debt will take years to pay off. By that time if not sooner, the vehicle has worn out and must be replaced, resulting in more debt. There's little hope of getting off the treadmill.

I notice the same thing in other items. In some cases, items are designed to break down or wear out quickly, keeping us coming back to replace them.

And you don't plan on returning? How long do you think you can survive as a slacker in Korea after your current contract runs out?
When do you plan to emigrate North where the government hasn't been fooled/bought into alignment with the evil U.S.? North Korea probably has a special place for dreamers like yourself. You also won't have to deal with people wasting their money on cars and other frivolous capitalist nonsense, eh?

So now I am a slacker and a communist because I left the United States?

I work 50 hours a week guy. My contract is only for a year at which time I will leave and visit family in the states. Thats way too far ahead in the future for me to plan so I dont really have an answer for you. However, there are several career english teachers over here that I have met you have been doing it for over 15 years. Most have not stayed strictly in Korea but tend just enjoy traveling and living abroad. Soem teach in Brazil, China, Japan, Thailand, All over Africa, you name it.

I dont think that is the life for me. I want to go back to school within the next 2-3 years so that may happen to be in the US but there are plenty of good schools in other countries.

Come on ILTB get a grip. For someone who claims that I stereotype people you seem to have a pretty hard headed opinion about me and my lifestyle. You also seem to be very interested in it so why not just PM me and we can caht all day long and not have to both these other fine people just trying to read the forum.

When do you plan to emigrate North where the government hasn't been fooled/bought into alignment with the evil U.S.? North Korea probably has a special place for dreamers like yourself. You also won't have to deal with people wasting their money on cars and other frivolous capitalist nonsense, eh?

I hope you thanked your dealer. That must be some righteous stuff that you're smoking. :p

So now I am a slacker and a communist because I left the United States?

I work 50 hours a week guy. My contract is only for a year at which time I will leave and visit family in the states. Thats way too far ahead in the future for me to plan so I dont really have an answer for you. However, there are several career english teachers over here that I have met you have been doing it for over 15 years. Most have not stayed strictly in Korea but tend just enjoy traveling and living abroad. Soem teach in Brazil, China, Japan, Thailand, All over Africa, you name it.

So perhaps you are not a communist. But please don't start talking about the United Nations or universal health care or I might change my mind. :)

Universal Health Care = communism? I think you've mislabeled the part of your brain you <a href="http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_prejudice.html">rearrange your prejudices</a> with.

Universal Health Care = communism? I think you've mislabeled the part of your brain you <a href="http://www.wisdomquotes.com/cat_prejudice.html">rearrange your prejudices</a> with.

Im pretty sure he was joking but thanks for the link anyways!