"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - How strong do you have to be to "solo" a Cat5 or Cat4 race?

Just curious. I've never raced a crit before, and I likely won't anytime soon, but I do ride fast rides with a racing group on the weekends, and it's got my curiosity piqued.

How strong do you think you'd have to be to solo a TYPICAL Cat5 to the win (the whole way) sans sprint finish? Do you think a TYPICAL Cat3 could pull this off in a typical Cat5 race? How bout for Cat4s - Cat2 or Cat1?

(I know it's sort of a theoretical-only question, since bike racers go tactics most of the way, but just curious.)

I think you have to be as strong as a cartoon sheep. I'm just guessing here. ;)

you'd have to be able to bench at least 200 pounds

Hypothetical questions, hypothetical answers.

So many variables. But it's really not too difficult to be OTF of a 5 race.

So many variables. But it's really not too difficult to be OTF of a 5 race.

not hard at all for the first two or three laps. :innocent:

I can tell you categorically that I was not strong enough to do it yesterday :p

I did about 25mph and was caught after 12 minutes.

Cat 4 circuit race

You have to be a lot stronger than anyone else there, OR for whatever reason they have to not be motivated to chase you.

It can be pretty tough. I TT'ed out the front of the Tuesday nighter mixed 4/5 field and did 26.5 mph for 3.5 miles on a hilly course. I got caught by the last guy at the line. It is hard to beat the collective effort of a paceline.

Scientifically inaccurate/incomplete but simplified explanation:
Your power output for the entire race has to be slightly higher than the power output of whoever happens to be on the front of the race for the amount of time they are there. Since the chasing pack has rotating leaders that are essentially sharing the load, they have a huge advantage.

If you can actually solo off a Cat 5 race you are probably a Cat 2 waiting to happen. A 3 for sure.

I think it's an interesting question. In the 12 (Cat5) races I've done, none of the solo breaks has stuck, especially mine. It's always been decided the last lap, usually in the last 2-300 yards. No one's even tried to go off the front right from the get-go. It's so much easier to sit in, it seems like you'd have to be a monster to go out and stay out by yourself.

We're a pretty disorganized bunch, though. Nobody seems to be able to get three or four guys to agree to work together and get anything established ahead of the pack.

at least 20% stronger than most in the field...

I've stayed off the front of 35+ races longer than I ever could in a cat4 or cat5 race. And I assure you, every masters race I've ever done was substantially faster than any cat4 or cat5 race.

The difference? cat4's and 5's will chase EVERYTHING down. A masters field is willing to relax and let the dice roll and let you wear yourself out off the front where a cat4/5 race is going to be too skeered that you'll skool them and will thus chase you down.

I've stayed off the front of 35+ races longer than I ever could in a cat4 or cat5 race. And I assure you, every masters race I've ever done was substantially faster than any cat4 or cat5 race.

The difference? cat4's and 5's will chase EVERYTHING down. A masters field is willing to relax and let the dice roll and let you wear yourself out off the front where a cat4/5 race is going to be too skeered that you'll skool them and will thus chase you down.

The Cliff Notes version is that the Masters 35+ guys are way smarter than the Cat 4 and Cat 5 fields.;)

The Cliff Notes version is that the Masters 35+ guys are way smarter than the Cat 4 and Cat 5 fields.;)

Indeed. See you tomorrow.

And don't forget to wear green! (I've got a green bracelet, so I'm covered).

Indeed. See you tomorrow.

And don't forget to wear green! (I've got a green bracelet, so I'm covered).

And a (recovered) green waterbottle. I think that I might wear my hi-vis green jersey tomorrow.:roflmao2:

you'd have to be able to bench at least 200 pounds


I wish it was that easy!!! :o

And a (recovered) green waterbottle. I think that I might wear my hi-vis green jersey tomorrow.:roflmao2:

That bottle is staying home tomorrow in case I get near the rumble strips again!

Sheesh.

Oh yeah.. Back on topic. I stayed off the front of last Thursdays worlds for a little over 3 miles (from the hill to the cemetery), there was no way I was going to solo away from that bunch though. Too bad there's rules tomorrow night :(

Too bad there's rules tomorrow night :(

Will there be yelling? http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=200479 I hope so (if required).

How strong do you think you'd have to be to solo a TYPICAL Cat5 to the win (the whole way) sans sprint finish?

Stronger than the 3-4 guys driving the pace. Most people in cat 5 don't want to chase, so if you can time trial decently you have a chance. When I was a 5 last year, I wasn't able to get a break to stick but it sure was fun trying :)

We had a kid who was riding with us who did it 3 or 4 times (at least one of those was with another rider, though). He was a Cat 2 about a year later.

I don't think there's a "real" answer to this question (as you might have noticed) but here's an actual scenario for you. Last weekend I soloed off the front of a collegiate C crit (which is about the equivalent of a Cat 5 race or so). Didn't mean to go, but found myself with a gap, and legs felt good, so I put my head down.

Average speed at the end was 24.6 mph (no power numbers, sorry) for 35 minutes. 1km course with one short steep climb. This is crucial, though: I also had two teammates back in the pack who were doing a hell of a good job blocking and generally disrupting any chase effort. If the pack had really wanted to chase me down, they could have.

you'd have to be able to bench at least 200 pounds

LOL

Most likely it is

you'd have to be able to not bench 80 pounds

Just curious. I've never raced a crit before, and I likely won't anytime soon, but I do ride fast rides with a racing group on the weekends, and it's got my curiosity piqued.

How strong do you think you'd have to be to solo a TYPICAL Cat5 to the win (the whole way) sans sprint finish? Do you think a TYPICAL Cat3 could pull this off in a typical Cat5 race? How bout for Cat4s - Cat2 or Cat1?

(I know it's sort of a theoretical-only question, since bike racers go tactics most of the way, but just curious.)

Simple...you just have to be able to solo TT (on your road bike) at a faster speed than the average speed of the last 10-15 laps of the typical races in your area.

If you aren't strong enough to do that...then you aren't strong enough...

I did it many times jumping early on the last lap and holding them off that way. For the whole time? good luck.

I have a teammate who 2 years ago pulled a solo flyer from the gun of a Cat 5 crit, Sunny King Crit in Anniston, AL and actually ended up lapping the field. This was only his second race, first was the Athen's Twilight a week prior which he got dropped in. Prior to these races he mostly did MTB and LOTS of centuries, specifically hilly ones. The bad part is the he hasn't done an official race since then and our local rep, who is a 4 on another team, won't allow him to upgrade...

I think you have to be as strong as a cartoon sheep. I'm just guessing here. ;)


I thought it was a unkempt Roman sheep dog. Hence the latin name.

My advice:

If you do manage to pull it off, don't come on here threatening to bust the knee caps of a competing teams star player just because you want to try some high zoot wheels like everyone else has. We just don't do those sorts of things in a civilized society.

Unkempt...hmmmppfff

I don't think there's a "real" answer to this question (as you might have noticed) but here's an actual scenario for you. Last weekend I soloed off the front of a collegiate C crit (which is about the equivalent of a Cat 5 race or so). Didn't mean to go, but found myself with a gap, and legs felt good, so I put my head down.

Average speed at the end was 24.6 mph (no power numbers, sorry) for 35 minutes. 1km course with one short steep climb. This is crucial, though: I also had two teammates back in the pack who were doing a hell of a good job blocking and generally disrupting any chase effort. If the pack had really wanted to chase me down, they could have.

I saw this happen in a C crit last year, at UVM. Sounds like you got away at Grant's Tomb? Good show on that, that's a great race, good for a break. Anyway, it helps to get away without meaning to, or to attack very sneakily, at least in the collegiate races. The escapee in my race was in much the same scenario, didn't intend to get a gap, but when he did he put his head down and went for it. I can personally jump very hard off the front of a race. In all of my collegiate races, this resulted in the field freaking out and chasing me like mad - in one case, after failing to react after TWO members of the same team had already attacked, albeit less forcefully. Which brings me to my next point: collegiate racers and low-level USAC racers like Cat 4 and 5 riders are idiots, and will think only of their own chances for the win, even if said chances don't exist (I'm guilty too, but in my defense, I never had teammates in my races). If you can get away without provoking a big chase, there's a good chance that they will all look at each other and you can stay away.

But that comes with a solid IF. It is, IF you have the Watts/CdA to maintain the same speed or more of the chasing field. "How strong?" doesn't have a simple answer, because you can be strong, yet have little hope of managing such a feat. I'm a pretty respectable Cat 4 climber/sprinter with sufficient but not amazing W/kg at threshold. The thing is that the kg = 55.6 (or so), which = not a lot of W. So maybe I could get off the front, but I might not be able to hold the power I need until the end. And I'm not a weakling by the standards of my category, though neither am I a beast. Of course, if the field is watching each other enough, they might go slowly enough for someone like me to keep away. In most cases, even a strong TT guy with lots of W to spare is unlikely to make it solo. Winning a Cat 4/5 race solo generally requires a "perfect storm" of weird sh*t to happen first, but I think that a serendipitous escape, a field more interested in watching others than chasing and a good power output are the most likely combination of factors to make it work.

I did it many times jumping early on the last lap and holding them off that way. For the whole time? good luck.

It's worth noting that when I went from the gun yesterday I had no intention of holding everyone off the whole race I just wanted to shake things up and escape the clusterf*k that was the prior day. A solo break for a whole race? yeah, good luck. I would bet that a cat 2 could probably ride away solo from most cat 4 fields, but you never know when you've got some cat-2-in-waiting in the field too...

All my cat 5 races have not been significantly slower than the 4's or 3's. I think people who have never raced underestimate a lot of cat 5ers. I've done cat 5 races that average 25 mph... I don't know many cat 3's who can manage a solo 26 mph for a half hour.

also something to consider: A professional triathlete decides to race in bike only races. They could already be a great cyclist who can own most cat 3's but where do they start? Cat 5.

To answer your question: I think many cat 2's could do it, time trial specialists could, and i'm sure most if not all pros could.

Stronger than the 3-4 guys driving the pace. Most people in cat 5 don't want to chase, so if you can time trial decently you have a chance. When I was a 5 last year, I wasn't able to get a break to stick but it sure was fun trying :)

This hasn't been my experience... every break away gets chased down immediately. Everyone is scared of what the OP is asking about i guess...

i think it depends allot on what part of the country you are racing in.

In socal and texas...the fields are steeped with talent...probably less of a chance than say upstate NY were Pcad rides.

As a point of reference, 2.8W/kg will get you spat out of the back if you are not hiding in the field in a stiff headwind.

Problem isn't the chasing in a 4/5 race. Problem is there are only a few guys willing to try a solo flyer.

The only "counter" most 4/5's are familiar with is the one at Starbucks.

First attack gets chased down then there's a lull after the catch (which is the best time to go) where everyone slows down to recover and putts along. Repeat. So either the racer has to be really strong or conditions have to be really hard. Or both.

See: Half man, half sheep.

And the point where they really should be attacking, in the last few laps, everybody believes they're Cavendish and conserves for the field sprint to contest 15th.

Part of that is because people aren't sure what they can do out there. This is often because of the horrible advice they've received about constantly sitting in and not taking any wind. You don't go, you'll never know.

And some of it is "I got 11th" sounds better to casual observers than "I blew up and got 33rd". So they ride (as opposed to race) to mitigate damage rather than to win.

Problem isn't the chasing in a 4/5 race. Problem is there are only a few guys willing to try a solo flyer.

http://www.photoscene.com/kimandsteve/images/5891.jpg


And the point where they really should be attacking, in the last few laps, everybody believes they're Cavendish and conserves for the field sprint to contest 15th.

I made another attempt midway through the race to get away with a few other guys but spent too much of the race just trying to get to the front. I was going to do a kilo attack at the end but lost all my position behind a crash.


Part of that is because people aren't sure what they can do out there. This is often because of the horrible advice they've received about constantly sitting in and not taking any wind. You don't go, you'll never know.

And some of it is "I got 11th" sounds better to casual observers than "I blew up and got 33rd". So they ride (as opposed to race) to mitigate damage rather than to win.

I told Eric (esammuli) that my plan was to solo to a win or blow up off the back. Chasing back on to the pack during the last lap and working my way back up the field I honestly was happy just to finish upright.

And some of it is "I got 11th" sounds better to casual observers than "I blew up and got 33rd". So they ride (as opposed to race) to mitigate damage rather than to win.


Upgrades comes into play, at least in the 4's. My last road race, I tried to take off at 1km to go. Ended up about 100 meters short. Worked out as a leadout for my teammate who won, but I ended up 15th.

From an upgrade point of view, I would have likey finished in the points, or at least top ten, had I waited for the final sprint. So trying to win ended up working against my goal.

Why should you take a solo shot in a 4/5 race? Because if somebody joins you, you're in a breakaway, and those can succeed.

I told Eric (esammuli) that my plan was to solo to a win or blow up off the back. Chasing back on to the pack during the last lap and working my way back up the field I honestly was happy just to finish upright.

:thumb: Great effort!


Upgrades comes into play...so trying to win ended up working against my goal.

You guys RACED your bikes. That's awesome. Tell the truth, going out there made things a lot more interesting/fun than just sitting in, huh? UMD, you've got that photo as wallpaper now? :)

Efforts like these will only make you guys stronger in the long run, mentally and physically.

Merlin, I understand wanting to get out of the 4's. But does that goal supersede winning? If so, why? If you need to upgrade to support teammates, I get that and did it myself. If you're interested in getting out of the squirrel-fest that can be the 4's, heck, just keep going OTF. Much safer up there. And if you keep giving it a shot:


if somebody joins you, you're in a breakaway, and those can succeed.

PCad with a piece of wisdom. Hang on a sec...yep, weather report for hell calls for ice showers and freezing rain. :twitchy::)

I've stayed off the front of 35+ races longer than I ever could in a cat4 or cat5 race. And I assure you, every masters race I've ever done was substantially faster than any cat4 or cat5 race.

The difference? cat4's and 5's will chase EVERYTHING down. A masters field is willing to relax and let the dice roll and let you wear yourself out off the front where a cat4/5 race is going to be too skeered that you'll skool them and will thus chase you down.

Another thing to consider with cat 5 at least is race distance. The odds of someone staying away for 12 miles -vs- 20 much better in cat 5. You have less time to pull guys back, especially if it's a group 3, 4 guys working together.

I should add that I did my first race this past weekend. Two teamates (not mine, I'm Unattached) shot off the front...I heard one rider say..."Let them go, let them burn themselves out". Wasn't long before they were back in the pack.

Ive seen top regional tri guys solo off the front of a CAT 5 race... and get caught with 1k to go :) .

:thumb: Great effort!




Merlin, I understand wanting to get out of the 4's. But does that goal supersede winning?





Winning's still the ultimate goal. But the upgrade angle does fit in my decision calculus. It was easier to risk finishing out of the top ten on Sunday because I got upgrade points on Saturday.

Problem isn't the chasing in a 4/5 race. Problem is there are only a few guys willing to try a solo flyer.


This year I'm planning on attacking more while last year I was just happy to finish in the pack. But with lack of fitness it's definitely harder to take fliers OTF and stay away.

:thumb: Great effort!



You guys RACED your bikes. That's awesome. Tell the truth, going out there made things a lot more interesting/fun than just sitting in, huh? UMD, you've got that photo as wallpaper now? :)

Efforts like these will only make you guys stronger in the long run, mentally and physically.

Merlin, I understand wanting to get out of the 4's. But does that goal supersede winning? If so, why? If you need to upgrade to support teammates, I get that and did it myself. If you're interested in getting out of the squirrel-fest that can be the 4's, heck, just keep going OTF. Much safer up there. And if you keep giving it a shot:



PCad with a piece of wisdom. Hang on a sec...yep, weather report for hell calls for ice showers and freezing rain. :twitchy::)

Truth. My favorite race from the 2008 season had me finishing dead last after attacking constantly from the gun.

Upgrades comes into play, at least in the 4's. My last road race, I tried to take off at 1km to go. Ended up about 100 meters short. Worked out as a leadout for my teammate who won, but I ended up 15th.

From an upgrade point of view, I would have likey finished in the points, or at least top ten, had I waited for the final sprint. So trying to win ended up working against my goal.

I must admit that knowing I had my upgrade locked in allowed me to be a more... adventurous

Hmm... just hypothetically... If I was to place a checkers piece into a chess match, could it take their king?

I launched a fierce solo attack off the back in my first Cat 5 race a couple years ago. :thumb:

I did it... for all of 45 seconds lol.

i think it depends allot on what part of the country you are racing in.

In socal and texas...the fields are steeped with talent...probably less of a chance than say upstate NY were Pcad rides. Totally OT, but: pCad does not ride in Upstate New York.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

(Former Upstate New Yorker. I know.)

Cat 5 is the perfect type of race to give this a go. There is absolutely nothing at stake (upgrade points, $'s, etc.) and you won't be fuxing up any team strategy.