Fifty Plus (50+) - Are 'bents easier on the knees?

I ask, because my knee problem seems to be coming back. It had me off the bike for seven weeks a couple of years ago, then cleared up, but now it's barking every now and then. Not too bad, and I can still ride, but I'd like to know my options.

If I ever go 'bent, it will be low-end to start because they are so expensive! What's a good first 'bent? I'd be doing 15-20 milers on it, mostly in urban environments. Thanks!

Gary, I don't know the answer to your question in regards to the knees as I've been fortunate to not have problematic knees, yet. Remember, you're still moving the same mass with same engine.

What got me hooked was the great seat comfort, the relaxed feeling I have in my neck and the elimination of weight on my wrists. Oh yeah, and they're just so damned fun to ride!!

As far as recumbent research is concerned the Bicycle Man has a good site explaining a lot about the different types and quality levels of recumbents from various manufacturers. He's a bit too far away for you to shop at his shop but I believe you'll find his reviews very interesting. At the very least, it's a place to start the learning process. NOTE: Some of his prices are not current, but you can find prices on the manufacturers sites.
http://www.bicycleman.com/

Good luck in your quest, Sir DG.

p.s.
As you may have noticed on an earlier thread I just put my wife on an entry level recumbent. We went out for a five miler today and she loves it. :recum:

DG, I have a LWB recumbent, and it's about the same on the knees. When my knees started barking, I moved the seat back as far as I could and still have everything work. Same as raising the seat on a DF. I changed the cranks from 170s to 160s which also reduced the angle on the knees. Next, I got in the habit of gearing down and spinning faster. The final change was to stick to flatter ground and avoid routes with lots of hills. These solved the problem.

Try a few of these before going 'bent. They are expensive and harder to transport. Also, you end up with a new bike that needs yet more $$$ to get everything dialed in.

If you want to try out a LWB, check out the EZ Sports and Rans Stratus LE's. Both are good entry level 'bents. bk

I know where you can get a really GOOD deal on a never ridden brand new Bacchetta Belandare:
http://www.bacchettabikes.com/recumbents/bikes/bellandare.htm

Lemme know and I'll hook you up.

Here's another shop site I like. Go to "Bikes" and click on the spinning Crank and you'll find a bike comparison tool. http://www.johnadamscycling.com/

You'll need to know your X-seam. Learn how to measure it at http://www.hostelshoppe.com/recumbent_catalog.php just go to Help Guides and then scroll down to Tech. Tips.

I've been told by two knee specialists that recumbent exercisers are easier on one's knees than upright cycling machines. I have no information beyond that. How much easier and whether it would be enough of a difference to make a difference for you, who knows? It may well depend upon what the specific issue is with one's knees.

The standard entry recumbent brand is SUN. Their new X-1, which is what Cranky just purchased for his wife, is their mid-line bent. There are many EZ-1's around, which can be had for as low as mid-$500's new. Frequently $300's used. A heavy'ish, slow recumbent, but comfortable and easy to ride. Not something I'd want to do 50 miles on, but people do it.

Here's a link to the EZ-1:
http://basicallybicycles.com/itemdetails.cfm?LibId=34905

I saw three SUN EZ-Sport bents on sale last fall in the $600-$750 range.

Another lower cost line is ActionBent, which is an on-line importer. They don't offer many (any?) long wheel models.

I have a RANS Stratus. It's wonderfully comfortable. Been around since 1979. They can pop up at good prices on Craigslist, as do the SUNs. Also the now defunct BikeE lines, which are good entry-level bent. More info on them here:
http://www.bikee.org/

The BikeE was the most popular recumbent ever made, but they experienced a number of business problems and actually went under as the then-current #1 seller.

I know where you can get a really GOOD deal on a never ridden brand new Bacchetta Belandare:
http://www.bacchettabikes.com/recumbents/bikes/bellandare.htm


I've ridden a Bellandare and liked it.

Interesting Craigslist ad here:

EZ-1 (http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/bik/1077240012.html)

and here:

Easy Racer Javelin (http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/1076890509.html)

and also here:

Cannondale (http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/1076425224.html)

although the last one is more than I'd care to spend just to see how I like it!

Gary, do you want to go through all the bikes you went thru before Ruby. Just go ride a few of the better bents because when you go bent, you'll never go back. I've got a Moots and a bike friday with flat tires sitting in the closet. The bent is slower up hills, be sure to get low gears for your knees.

BTW, I've got a a WHITE Gold Rush Racer. If you order one, you can talk to Fast Freddie Markham--he owns the company now.

Interesting Craigslist ad here:

EZ-1 (http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/bik/1077240012.html)

and here:

Easy Racer Javelin (http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/1076890509.html)

and also here:

Cannondale (http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/1076425224.html)

although the last one is more than I'd care to spend just to see how I like it!

The EZ-1 appears to be the low end bike of the bunch.

The Javelin will fit an X-seam of 41"-47", and is a much better bike.

I don't know anything about the Cannondale...though it has a 20" rear wheel, may be slow depending on the gearing. It's short wheel base will be a fun to manuver bike.

You can abuse your knees on just about any bike but with a 'bent there is no temptation, or ability, to stand up and put your body weight on the downstroke. Of course, you can still push bigger gears that you oughta. Head over to bentrideronline.com and you will find a forum full of 'bent advocates plus, for no extra charge, links to lots and lots of 'bent retailers and manufacturers.

With the same length cranks, the recumbent position actually has me using my knees more when my seat is fairly upright. Leaning back more aleviates that. Going to 160mm or shorter cranks will help your knees. You could also try shorter cranks on your Roubaix. The shorter your cranks the straighter your leg will be throughout the stroke. One thing that comes up a lot on bentrideronline is that the knees of most people like a decent amount of float on a recumbent with clipless pedals.

I would definitely test ride any recumbent before buying it. The EZ-1 lists for $799 MSRP. That's what I've seen it for in shops. You could always test ride the one on Craigslist. I got a Cycle Genius Sparrow in January, $799 MSRP. Due to waiting on a wrist injury to heal I don't have many miles on it. It's similar to the EZ-1, but has two 20" tires. My Lightning Cycle Dynamics seat bag fits over the back of the seat.

I don't have any pictures of my own Sparrow yet, but here's the web site. My Sparrow is the color of the Falcon LS in the pic above it. It looks like People Movers in Orange, Ca might be the closest dealer to you. I've never seen a Sparrow for sale on Craig's List.

http://www.cyclegenius.com/models.html

I remember you having a knee problem, what was the Rx for it? I would try chondriten sulfate/glucosamine and high dose fish oil and see if it clears up.

You can actually stress your knees more on a recumbent than an upright. The reason is that on an upright, gravity limits the amount of pressure you can put on the pedal, but with a recumbent, you're pushing against a seat back.

On any kind of bike, the distance from seat to pedal can be really critical for some people, when it comes to avoiding knee pain. Good pedaling technique helps, too. A higher cadence does more of the work with your cardiopulmonary system, and puts less stress on muscles and joints.

I remember you having a knee problem, what was the Rx for it? I would try chondriten sulfate/glucosamine and high dose fish oil and see if it clears up.

I went to three docs, and by the time I'd been to the last one since it took a while to get appointments, it was already feeling much better. That said, I spent 7 weeks off the bike and then it was fine. This was in 2006 I believe.

You can actually stress your knees more on a recumbent than an upright. The reason is that on an upright, gravity limits the amount of pressure you can put on the pedal, but with a recumbent, you're pushing against a seat back.

On any kind of bike, the distance from seat to pedal can be really critical for some people, when it comes to avoiding knee pain. Good pedaling technique helps, too. A higher cadence does more of the work with your cardiopulmonary system, and puts less stress on muscles and joints.

I guess I could try tweaking the fit again, although it works and I haven't changed anything for so long I don't remember when I did. But I can try playing with the saddle height, etc.

One other factor could be the fact that I switch back and forth between two bikes, the Roubaix and the Globe, and while I think the fit is fine on both of them, they ARE different bikes and have a different feel to the fit. And I'm bi-clipless -- that is, I'm clipless on Ruby and platform on the Caped Crusader.

Did you ever have a pro fitter help you?

I guess I could try tweaking the fit again, although it works and I haven't changed anything for so long I don't remember when I did. But I can try playing with the saddle height, etc.

One other factor could be the fact that I switch back and forth between two bikes, the Roubaix and the Globe, and while I think the fit is fine on both of them, they ARE different bikes and have a different feel to the fit. And I'm bi-clipless -- that is, I'm clipless on Ruby and platform on the Caped Crusader.

Good luck!

General guidance is if you have knee pain in the front of your knee, the saddle is too low. And if the pain is in the back of your knee, it's too high. I find the "too low" pain is made worse by not spinning fast enough. I don't find that saddle fore/aft matters very much in terms of knee pain.

Did you ever have a pro fitter help you?

No pro fitting, but the bike shop did a pretty thorough job (IMHO).

I've had knee pain both on the bent and on the DF, but it has been less on the bent. I suspect this is primarily because I'm not tempted to be as much of a masher on the 'bent; I keep my cadence up above 70 almost all the time.

What I did notice, and big time, is that I no longer have the kind of back pain I was having on the DF. Yes, mine was fitted and the fitter swore that it was perfect for me, but I still had back pain. After a long ride (70+ miles), it would be almost unbearable. No such pain on the 'bent.

For my money, the 'bent is a far better ride overall than the DF ever was. I've been full-time on mine for over a year now and don't ever plan to go back.

Interesting Craigslist ad here:


Cannondale (http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/1076425224.html)

although the last one is more than I'd care to spend just to see how I like it!


The Cannondale Bent is a great example of design by committee. It was built of high quality parts & designed to be a comfortable ride. It incorporates a mid-drive, a suspension, and an unusually low bottom bracket for its wheelbase.

The result was a bent that is of very good construction quality, a cushy ride, but tending toward being heavy and on the slow side. The cushiness and lack of performance made it unappealing to bent enthusiasts, the high quality parts made it too expensive for the typical buyer looking for a comfortable ride & who didn't care much about performance. Original list was $1999 back around 2004.

End result: Amazingly low sales for a major brand. Cannondale offered the bike for 3 years, adding a lower-end model at $1499 with cheaper components and later admitted that they sold less than 500 total in North America. Any Cannondale LBS that sold as many as 3 of them per year, were star resellers.

It is quite common to see sellers pushing the Cannondale name and quality of parts to get premium used prices. But kind of funny given that the bike completely bombed in the marketplace. For the right buyer, it is actually a very nice bike.

Ironically, Trek made many of the same mistakes on their ill-fated recumbent.

DG,

With what I know of San Diego, you want a bent with really really low gears and high gears. Just a few mid gears for transition. So some custom ratios might be a good idea. You'll have to be kind to your knees no matter what you get. Since you can push from the hip, you can put a lot of torque on the old knee if you pedal badly.

The reason to have a bent is that it is fun. I like my Bacchetta Giro 20.

Actionbents seem okay if you have the facilities and patience to sort them out. I got my Bacchetta instead because I was new to bents. But now that I know, I'd probably go for an Actionbent if I'm looking for a cheap bent. I did get to ride a friends Actionbent after buying my Bacchetta Giro 20, and I was impressed at how lively and fast it was. That doesn't mean that if I had more, I wouldn't be tempted by higher end bikes.

If you want to get a 'bent, get one. But if you want to make your knees stop hurting, figure out what is causing them to hurt and fix that. Could be a simple adjustment or two. Could be as simple as riding more often.

I've followed Deeg's bike-swapping for a few years, wondering if he'd eventually end up on a 'bent. Uprights can be things of beauty, but they're sure not for me. And DG, don't just buy one and hope you like it, TEST RIDE FIRST. Compared to 'bents where each one is noticeably different, all uprights are virtually identical to each other. Test ride many different brands, models, and styles. Low and high, long and short, fast and slow, cheap and ridiculously expensive. Don't be shy, try to get test rides on everything you can lay your greedy hands on. Then compare notes and start all over again. Bye the end of the second round, one of them will have spoken to you. No, I mean it. You will know. I just hope when you find her, you can afford her!

Regarding the Cannondale AND the Trek: Why, oh why, do the major DF brands think a 'bent must be suspended in order to be comfortable? They're ROAD bikes, fer cryin' out loud! I think it must be a carry-over mindset because their normal products are so inherently UNcomfortable. But with 'bents it's compensating for a problem that doesn't exist. In the 'bent world, active suspension is mostly for control on bumpy roads. Trek ruined a basically good design, while Cannondale designed their pig from the ground-up. Both were low performance and high price. Like Tom wrote, the people willing to pay the price expected performance. The Trek was overpriced but was selling pretty well in spite of it. Then the main supporter within the company died and the model was immediately pulled.

I occasionally get knee problems. Doc says it's because muscle imbalances cause my kneecap to track improperly. So, whenever I have issues, I do my exercises and in a few days I'm good to go again.

If you want to get a 'bent, get one. But if you want to make your knees stop hurting, figure out what is causing them to hurt and fix that. Could be a simple adjustment or two. Could be as simple as riding more often.

Yes! Sometimes it's hard to figure out knee issues and the fitters don't know everything. In my case, I had knee pain and couldn't use clipless pedals until I realized I needed to toe-out, way out. At first I drilled new holes in my shoes so I could move the cleat enough and eventually had some custom spacers made, like Kneesavers. This was in 1989 and my knees have been pretty happy since despite all the miles and climbing.
I guess my point is that everyone is different and your knees might be asking for something special.

Gary,
Have a look at this find on clist
http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/1074233977.html

I have a tour easy, great bike. You may be weight challenged with the Javelin they get a little flexy for big guys.

Joe

If you want to get a 'bent, get one. But if you want to make your knees stop hurting, figure out what is causing them to hurt and fix that. Could be a simple adjustment or two. Could be as simple as riding more often.

Speaking as a bent rider, I agree completely. Going to a bent is no guaranteed magic elixir. Using Glucosamine & Chondroitin addressed my knee problems. Knees are fine on 40 mile upright rides and 40 mile bent rides. Biggest difference for me is in my hands, which can be very painful on uprights while being completely painfree on bents.

I'd like to know my options.

Another option may be to shorten up the crank arms. Just going from 170mm to 165 or 160 can make a big difference.

Another option may be to shorten up the crank arms. Just going from 170mm to 165 or 160 can make a big difference.

Why is this?

Why is this?

Shorter lever - less torque...? Actually, I think it has to do with how much of a bend is in your knee when you start the downstroke, which is where most of the pressure is on the knee. If the knee is bent too much (longer crank arms), it can cause more problems with knees that are suffering.

For your knees, have you given thought to a fixed gear on a nice low gear with 160mm cranks?

You could build one for not much.

Just a suggestion.

I would think that a fixed gear would be harder on knees. No relaxed gearing on hills, no way to easily coast to take a break, possibly more pressure applied when slowing or braking (even with a hand brake installed).

Supposedly one of the very worst things on a cyclist's knees is being in too high a gear when going uphill. And I doubt there are many fixies that have gearing in the neighborhood of 34:25 or even 38:23.

If you want to get a 'bent, get one. But if you want to make your knees stop hurting, figure out what is causing them to hurt and fix that. Could be a simple adjustment or two. Could be as simple as riding more often.


I was thinking maybe Bebop clipless or Speedplay for a lot of float. Some people's knees just are made differently and need to operate at a different angle.

I would think that a fixed gear would be harder on knees. No relaxed gearing on hills, no way to easily coast to take a break, possibly more pressure applied when slowing or braking (even with a hand brake installed).

Supposedly one of the very worst things on a cyclist's knees is being in too high a gear when going uphill. And I doubt there are many fixies that have gearing in the neighborhood of 34:25 or even 38:23.

Sort of right and a lot not quite right Tom. If you gear a fixed gear too high, yes they are very hard on the knees but that's the same as for a freewheel bike.

The bit about 'no way to easily coast to take a break' is also not quite right. Due to the momentum of the bike keeping the pedals rolling, it's actually easier to just loaf along on a fixed gear bike than a freewheel bike were you can only do that on a downhill run. The inability to coast is wildly overstated IMHO and rarely coast even on a bike with a freewheel, particularly when I've spent a lot of time on the fixed.

Down hill isn't all that scary because it's really easy to control your speed and hence the cadence you're pulling, either by using the legs or using the brake, it just takes a bit of self control.

Braking isn't done with knee pressure, it happens with subtle use of your thigh muscles. Fit a brake for hard stopping (or lazy stopping) and you control your speed with subtle use of muscle, not massive back pressure.

Provided you gear your fixed gear bike appropriately, and a single fixed gear can easily cater for a surprisingly wide range of conditions (wider than a freewheel), there is no reason for it to cause problems with your knees.

All this falls down of course, if the route you follow features hills that move you out of 'appropriate gearing' - too steep or long going up and too steep or long going down.

I'm not about to say that fixed gear is easier on the knees because I don't have any proof that it is. However, the arguments put forth for it being bad for knees all apply to geared bikes as well because the problem lies not with the gears being fixed or free, but with running too high a gearing.

I do however, have some sympathy with the idea that long cranks hurt. My Trek (geared) and my Europa (fixed) both use 170mm cranks and I don't seem to have knee problems with either. My Jamis has 172.5mm cranks and although the difference isn't great, I'm really starting to notice it and it all revolves around how cramped my leg feels at the top of the stroke - seat heights are pretty right on all of them (the first thing I looked at). Although I don't typically suffer knee problems, I'm more likely to notice a bit of soreness after a ride on the Jamis than on either of the other two, to the point that my next build will feature the shorter cranks.

Richard

For what it's worth, my bent also has 170mm cranks and has never given me knee problems. The seat on that is so horrible I need to sit too close to the cranks so I'm effectively riding with too 'low a seat' but no problems with knees.

Richard

Sort of right and a lot not quite right Tom. If you gear a fixed gear too high, yes they are very hard on the knees but that's the same as for a freewheel bike.

The bit about 'no way to easily coast to take a break' is also not quite right. Due to the momentum of the bike keeping the pedals rolling, it's actually easier to just loaf along on a fixed gear bike than a freewheel bike were you can only do that on a downhill run. The inability to coast is wildly overstated IMHO and rarely coast even on a bike with a freewheel, particularly when I've spent a lot of time on the fixed.


Must say that I don't find all of your points to be convincing. A gear "too high" for some people on some hills could be a gear as low as 38:23, or even lower. A very mild mannered fixie would be one geared with a 2:1 ratio, like 40:20. I can tell you with an absolute certainty that this would be too high for me on a lot of hills around here. I would be mashing like mad at that gearing, up to the point where I would have to get off of the bike and push it the rest of the way over the hill.

As to coasting, I coast a lot on level ground. I stretch my legs while coasting, stand up to stretch my back, stretch my arms. I love to coast. Going downhill on pavement I'm pedaling maybe 50% of the time. I love to coast downhill while looking around taking in the scenery.

Also I can't see how anyone could slow a descent using solely thigh muscles without any increase in pressure on the knees.

Of course if someone is a well conditioned cyclist, then going up hills at 42:16 gearing, almost never coasting, and pedaling hard downhill is probably normal.

Must say that I don't find all of your points to be convincing. A gear "too high" for some people on some hills could be a gear as low as 38:23, or even lower. A very mild mannered fixie would be one geared with a 2:1 ratio, like 40:20. I can tell you with an absolute certainty that this would be too high for me on a lot of hills around here. I would be mashing like mad at that gearing, up to the point where I would have to get off of the bike and push it the rest of the way over the hill.

As to coasting, I coast a lot on level ground. I stretch my legs while coasting, stand up to stretch my back, stretch my arms. I love to coast. Going downhill on pavement I'm pedaling maybe 50% of the time. I love to coast downhill while looking around taking in the scenery.

Also I can't see how anyone could slow a descent using solely thigh muscles without any increase in pressure on the knees.

Of course if someone is a well conditioned cyclist, then going up hills at 42:16 gearing, almost never coasting, and pedaling hard downhill is probably normal.

You missed the last part of my post Tom, where I talk about appropriate gearing and where I comment that the whole concept falls down quickly if the hills are too steep or long.

To put it differently, within an appropriate range of conditions, there is no reason for a fixed gear bike to put excess pressure on your knees. For a given gear ratio, that range of conditions is wider than for a bike with a freewheel. However, once you get outside that range of conditions, and if you're fighting crook knees you'll hit that quickly, being able to change gears is useful. Here in Adelaide, riding around my home with dud knees would be daft on any bike but down on the Adelaide Plains, which covers most of Adelaide (ie, you can do centuries easily), a mid to low geared fixed bike will work very nicely.

As for coasting, I'm no high powered speed demon and generally regret it when I behave like one. Even when just pottering, I keep the legs going no matter what I'm on. From the sounds of it, I probably work harder than you do though.

I'm not promoting fixed gear as a solution to knee problems, just addressing the claim that they are universally bad for knee problems. I think they are a good option for dud knees within a certain and probably limited range but in a flat city like Adelaide, you can remain within that range. The causes of knee problems (bike fit, cleat position, gearing, riding style, body getting narky) apply to both geared and fixed bikes.

Richard

I'm not trying to be derogatory toward fixies. Not for me, but people sure love them. I just don't see any advantage to a fixie design vs a freewheel, and in particularly a multi-geared freewheel, in terms of stress on one's knees. It seems to me that in the best case scenario, they would be tied, and in all other cases, the fixie would be worse. That is, whenever the fixie's native gear is perfect, then it is fine, but then the geared bike should be able to hit that same gear, so it's equal. Then at all times when the fixie's native gear is not the best, the freewheel would have the advantage.

That is, unless someone needed a more strenuous workout to address a knee issue. There would certainly be times where this would be the case.

All this falls down of course, if the route you follow features hills that move you out of 'appropriate gearing' - too steep or long going up and too steep or long going down.

FYI: San Diego, where DG lives is famous for its "Mesa and Canyon" terrain. On top of the mesas it is pretty much flat. To get from mesa to mesa you must go through the canyons. They are steep and long and there usually aren't many alternatives in route.

Gary,

Have you thought about putting orthotics in your bike shoes? I use them in mine and haven't had any knee related problems since. They were originally designed for my running shoes but I got smart, stopped running and got into cycling. It didn't dawn on me at first to put the orthotics in my riding shoes but when the knees started hurting, I gave them shot and problem solved.

Gary,

Have you thought about putting orthotics in your bike shoes? I use them in mine and haven't had any knee related problems since. They were originally designed for my running shoes but I got smart, stopped running and got into cycling. It didn't dawn on me at first to put the orthotics in my riding shoes but when the knees started hurting, I gave them shot and problem solved.

Just following that line of thought, top line fitters also put wedges under the cleats (or is it the clips?) on clipless shoes to tilt the foot where needed.

Richard

Well, after careful thought (and a glance at my checking account) I've decided not to go 'bent shopping just now. I'll try tweaking the Roubaix and/or adding the supplements to my diet and see what happens.

Apparently, I'm not going to get either a bailout OR a million dollar bonus at the present time. :(

Shop anyway. Learn what you would buy if you could afford to, style, brand and size. One is bound to show up used for a very affordable price sometime down the road. Perhaps then you could move swiftly to acquire it.

One nice thing about used bikes, they depreciate very little so anything invested into one is generally easy to recover.

Do you still have a set of platform pedals around? Put those on your bike and see if that does the trick. If it does, then your shoe cleats are probably not positioned right, or you need pedals with more float.