Training & Nutrition - For the weightlifters

Assuming your main cardio workout is riding...would you still lift weights for your legs? If you work your legs to the point of exhaustion, how can you have an efficient cardio workout if your legs are sore and weak?

I am starting my workout schedule as of monday, so im just working on routine for myself for the upcoming weeks. When i was lifting on a daily basis last summer, after my kill my legs on my leg day, my legs were too sore for a cardio work out. Sometimes, they were sore for an entire week, thus elimintating cardio from the whole schedule.

I do upper body lifts 3 times a week & leg lifts only one day. I'll ride on the same day that I do my leg workout: weights in the morning, bike in the evening.

The day after is my rest day: no weights, no bike.

PS: I always do 10 minutes on a stationary bike as a pre-lift warm-up.

It depends on the period in my training, and what I'm training for. I always lift upper body 2 times per week. My typical training schedule looks like this:

If I'm into hill repeats and intervals:
then I'll lift legs once,
2 hill workouts, 1 interval, 1 long ride, 2 easy rides.
run 5 times per week (slow warm up for the day/ about 25 miles per week with hills 1xweek and intervals 1xweek followed by easy bike).

If I'm in the base phase then I'll:
Lift every 48 hours
ride 6 days per week with one long ride with the rest either road or mountain.
run 5 days per week.

I lift 3-4 times a week, and no, I dont train legs.

No way I'd be able to make it all work.

You might like to read last week's discussion:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=50744

here's some older, longer discussions:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=5982&highlight=weights
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=39424&highlight=weights
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=45596&highlight=weights

As a personal trainer and a cyclist, I will tell you that you will be best off to train your legs at least once a week. Do not confuse aerobic conditioning bike workouts with the strength gains that can be achieved (and is necessary) from resistance training. I would avoid having my most intense weight room days as the same day as my heavy bike days. Of course, like sm266 said, this varies to your phase of training and experience. Also remember that muscle weaknesses in your legs, including any strength imbalance of muscles in the same leg or between legs, can vastly impair your performance and lead to injuries. For this reason alone weight training of your entire body should not be neglected in any complete fitness routine. If you are extremely sore for an entire week, outside of the initial soreness common to first starting out, you may be over training for a beginner. Take it slow and remember that greater fitness gains are made from learning technique are slowly progressing within your limits. Consistency is the key to success in any routine.

Be careful taking some of the training advice I just read in the above listed links to threads about weight training. There is a lot of amateur advice with old wives’ tale theories. Although some of the posters are on the right track, others are just pain wrong when it comes to exercise science.

Do not confuse aerobic conditioning bike workouts with the strength gains that can be achieved (and is necessary) from resistance training.

Hi Eman.

What about going anerobic on the bike? (e.g. hard sprints and climbs)

I believe that provides me with a fairly good resistance workout. You think it's not a sufficient replacement for "leg days"?

Cheers,
Al.

I think hard sprints and climbs are great resistance training, and I love 'em. But as I'm getting into much better shape, I'm finding my local hills, while very steep, aren't long enough anymore.
And for explosive speed drills, I like plyometrics: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/luis14.htm
You don't really need weights for it. Basically, it's just squatting down and jumping as high as you can, as many times as you can, concentrating on speed of repetitions.

I've been lifting and training under supervision from a skilled a nutritionist/trainer for over a year, so my program is designed for my body. Please do not jump into a program of high mileage/intensity, running, and intense weights if you're not used to it. You can lift legs and ride in the same week, even the same day if it's an easy ride. For the most part, my legs need the weights to see strength gains. I count my hill repeats as a leg day because they fatigue my legs and are really intense.

Hi Eman.

What about going anerobic on the bike? (e.g. hard sprints and climbs)

I believe that provides me with a fairly good resistance workout. You think it's not a sufficient replacement for "leg days"?

Cheers,
Al.

Bike drills that work the anaerobic energy systems are essential for serious cyclists, but they do not replace weights. You will of course increase your sprint speed and VO2 Max by conducting hill repeats, sprints and interval training at varying distances and times. In addition, as well as the obvious aerobic conditioning, you build your cycling specific muscular endurance, threshold, as well as become more neurologically efficient under various, real time, road resistance by performing such drills.

However, your ability to get stronger is limited if your work is strictly on the bike. Remember that power is measured by the equation: power = force x velocity. The ability to generate more force (or strength) is going to increase your ability to produce power (sometimes referred to as sport strength speed). Squats, step ups, and lunges are all outstanding exercises to help you achieve this. Just have someone show you who did not learn them last week by reading a magazine.

Plyometrics is harder to perform correctly than some people may think. These movements are used to increase your body's ability to be explosive in certain movements. It actually does more to train your body's neurological system than its muscles. Plyometrics should only be considered by an athlete with a good foundation, as injury can occur without a good baseline of strength, flexibility and endurance. It also does not replace traditional strength training as it is a different type of workout with an entirely different training objective. They can be very effective however.

Lastly, remember that the human body is an amazing compensator. Most athletes, you would be surprised even at the elite levels, have muscle imbalances that need correcting in order for the body to function at its most efficient level. Even at the amateur weekend rider level, and in some ways more so, you need to ensure that weaker muscles in your system are not keeping you back. It is quite possible for a weak muscle in your legs or core to force other muscles to work either harder or outside of their normal track. Again, this can increase the chance of injury or at least impede top performance. For instance and a quick example, an weak abductor like the gluteus medius can create a tight ITB which can be felt at either the crest of the hip or the just above the side of the knee joint. This may not even be noticed until long after it had been over-working for weeks or months and it is now irritated. All the stretching in the world will not fix it and bike riding all day long will likely only make matters worse. If your body has already been compensting to turn the pedals there is not reason for this to change. What is then needed is specific training to that muscle or group. Ideally of course this is done before injury. This is why only PT or doctor should identify these imbalances and rectify them once they occur. Much of my job is keeping people out of those situations. There is also the question of imbalances between left and right sides as most riders (all people really) have one leg stronger than the other. That is why I like the lunges, step ups, as well as leg presses, extensions, and curls done a single leg at a time.

Finally, be careful in that there are a lot of so called "personal trainers" who collect money to count reps for their clients, but also do more harm then good. I do not have time to really proof read this as I wanted to just quick post and got rambling. I need to get back to work, but remember that balance and consistency are the keys to success. Good luck!

Assuming your main cardio workout is riding...would you still lift weights for your legs? If you work your legs to the point of exhaustion, how can you have an efficient cardio workout if your legs are sore and weak?

Its all about periodization, months/years of conditioning your CNS, knowing your limits in the gym & out on the bike and knowing when to stop. I condition my posterior chain 3x per week, Core/Lower Back workout 3-4x per week and ride 4x per week 50-100 miles per ride w/ very little Upperbody conditioning<<< Was I doing this amount of work when I first started, hell no, I couldn't, or I would have dropped dead. If you condition your CNS and body to handle such workloads, over time your body will become accustomed to the stresses. Like the great Rocky Marciano once said "Tough times don't last but tough people do".

It sounds to me like you have just started conditioning. What have you been doing for the last 1-2 years???. Its a lifetimes dedication not just "Damn, I noticed when I started lifting this week w/weights for my legs, it hurt".

I don't understand why some people emphasize hitting the upperbody more than hitting the posterior chain. All things being equal, someone who conditions there Hamstrings, Glutes, Hips, Legs, Lower back & waist over there Upperbody will always win. Upperbody mass doesn't cut it in cycling and will affect your Bodyweight/Power ratio significantly. More weight up top, less strength below, Pointless.

I used to find that some of my best rides followed a hard leg day in the gym. It seemed as though my muscles wre wound up and ready to push hard and fast. I lift weights very little right now but that will change as winter sets back in.

I don't understand why some people emphasize hitting the upperbody more than hitting the posterior chain. All things being equal, someone who conditions there Hamstrings, Glutes, Hips, Legs, Lower back & waist over there Upperbody will always win. Upperbody mass doesn't cut it in cycling and will affect your Bodyweight/Power ratio significantly. More weight up top, less strength below, Pointless.


Vitamin X, I read your reply and then realized when I pulled this quote, that it was you, so I'm going to respond for the benefit of others in the forum.

Lifting upper body is important for balancing the body, muscles, spine, and tendons. Muscle imbalances can affect daily life. You also need good upper body strength to help power up hills, in sprints, and time trials. I'm not talking about looking like the cover of "Men's Health, gain weight, 300 grams of protein per day,taken to the extreme" lifting, I'm talking about practical workouts than increase strength and overall fitness. They're important and should be included in a balanced program.

I emphasis the upper body more during part of the season because:
1. I ride 6 times per week including hills, intervals, and a long ride and I run. To lift more than 1 time per week could hinder my other workouts.
2. I'm a paddler.
3. I like to look proportioned.

Bodyweight to power ration? C'mon. Granted, if you're bodybuilding, it would be a factor. However, a typical lifting program including upperbody will not have such a dramatic affect.

Do a google search for Pavel Tsatsouline and/or "Power to the People"

He outlines a short program designed to build serious functional strength WITHOUT gaining mass.

You can also check out Dragondoor.com to read his forum.