Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - the truth about hubs

what is the deal with all these brands just re-branding the same chinese built hubs?

from what i understand origin 8, formula and others (IRO?) are all the same thing.

does anybody know what other hubs fit into this category. im looking into new wheels soon and if all these hubs are the same, i just want to make sure i get the cheapest one.

if im wrong, please provide an informative answer...

I believe this phenomenon happens in with a lot of parts in many different industries (not just bicycle hubs), due to profit margins.

Branding and rebranding is a fact of life when you're dealing with bike components. You just have to do your homework.

The two big players in low end fixed hubs are Formula/ IRO/ Harris/ etc and Dimension/ Nashbar/ Ben's/ etc. Both are completely fine products.

hubs to stay away from: Quando, Joytech

I believe this phenomenon happens in with a lot of parts in many different industries (not just bicycle hubs), due to profit margins.

of course, im not oblivious to this, im just wondering which hubs applied to this, and if there were any (even slight) differences. maybe the bearings? idk, something like that.

Formula brand lockring suckkkkk. Threads are so soft and brittle, don't even bother putting it on.

That's really my ONLY complaint.

I used to have some Joytech hubs that were keirin spaced, and even that lockring wasn't as bad as those black Formula ones.

I know Formula brand hubs come with "Phil Wood" color bearing covers. Might give the illusion that they use better cartridge bearings than the regular "black" cartridges, but there's no difference. All made in Taiwan.

A few Asian companies manufacture good basic cost-effective hubs (such as Novatec and Formula). These are then rebranded and sold under several names. The rebranding name is unimportant. Its not just a track/FG/SS hub phenomenon. These companies make all kinds of hubs, some for walmart bikes and others for very high end wheelsets. Additionally, there is a larger number of costly boutique brands (such as Phil Wood or White Industries) that actually manufacture unique hubs, usually with non-interchangable parts or designs.

However, thats no secret.

The real secret about hubs is that budget hubs such as Formulas perform as well as high-end hubs (like Phil Wood). The basic (non-proprietary) design of these Asian hubs is also an advantage because replacement hardware is readily available and costs pennies. This is particularly true for track hubs, because they have a very basic design (unlike many freehubs, which are inherently more complex and have a wider variety of designs). Hubs are probably one of the least broken bike parts, and they almost always outlast the other wheel components. The performance of the hub really boils down to the smoothness of the bearings. However, even cheap hubs tend to have smooth bearings and, if not, you can always replace the bearings for very little money. For what its worth, the stock bearings in my formula hubs are much much smoother than the stock bearings in some of the high end hubs I have owned that cost 6 times as much.

Some will claim that cheap hubs have poor threads, but in my experience that is not true. Stripped threads are usually attributable to user error and it is a problem that is not limited to Formula or Novatec hub users.

mihlbach speaks the truth.

i love formula hubs for their consistent function and smooth bearings even though they possess little bling value. the weight of the hub is really immaterial as it's got so little rotational inertia.

also agree that formula lockring are poor quality. i run dura ace steel rings with my hubs.

i love formula hubs for their consistent function and smooth bearings even though they possess little bling value. the weight of the hub is really immaterial as it's got so little rotational inertia.



True, hub weight is of little importance, but still relevant to total bike weight. For what its worth, none of the more expensive track hubs are light either. They weigh about the same as (or in some cases, more than) your basic Formula. In fact, I think the Novatec (Bens, Dimension, etc) hub is the lightest (270gms), undoubtedly because of its hollow axle.

I was surprised to find out how heavy phils are!

About 400 grams for the rear.

as has been intimated by others, the hardware on some affordable/entry-level hubs is the weak point. at work, i advise any customers to bin the no-name lockring and cog if it's supplied with their hub or on their complete bike— this applies even to nicer bikes like the track pro and tk2, which still come with a low quality cog. some track hubs don't have an integral washer on their axle nuts; formula and dimension both do, but ensure you use a proper 6-point 15mm wrench as the material grade isn't as high as some others.

as has been intimated by others, the hardware on some affordable/entry-level hubs is the weak point. at work, i advise any customers to bin the no-name lockring and cog if it's supplied with their hub or on their complete bike— this applies even to nicer bikes like the track pro and tk2, which still come with a low quality cog. some track hubs don't have an integral washer on their axle nuts; formula and dimension both do, but ensure you use a proper 6-point 15mm wrench as the material grade isn't as high as some others.

another good point. i've owned a couple sets of miche hubs which have 14mm nuts without spinning washers. the serration on the nuts chew up the frame and fork dropout badly. great hubs, poor hardware.

I was surprised to find out how heavy phils are!

About 400 grams for the rear.

Is that really a big deal? The difference between that and the novatec is the weight of a couple bags of chips.

Is that really a big deal? The difference between that and the novatec is the weight of a couple bags of chips.

please read post 8.

For what its worth, none of the more expensive track hubs are light either.
They weigh about the same as (or in some cases, more than) your basic Formula.

except Am Classic.

http://www.amclassic.com/products/hubs/trackrear.php

except Am Classic.

http://www.amclassic.com/products/hubs/trackrear.php

The reported weight of 190gms for the AM Classic hub undoubtedly does not include the nuts. If you add the nuts, the weight is not going to be much different than the Novatec hub, but still probably a little lighter.

Is that really a big deal? The difference between that and the novatec is the weight of a couple bags of chips.

Well, considering how much more you pay, you might expect it to be a little lighter. More expensive usually means lighter. There are advantages to less weight however minor, and if you are paying that much, I'd expect every possible advantage.
Its certainly possible to make a lighter track hub without compromising durability. Novatec and Dimension hubs can withstand a lot of abuse despite being lighter. Also, the claimed weight of the WI industries track hub is 293 gms...pretty light.

Phil isn't really about performance however, so the excessive hub weight isn't surprising. They are for show, not for racing.

Is there any reliability or performance difference between hollow and solid axle? Are their any disadvantages of using a hollow axle? Are they weaker?

I know the purpose of hollow axles. In the case of track axles, where quick-releases seem to not be used, hollow axles are pretty much only for weight saving.

can quick-releases & locking skewers even be used with the hollow axles of the dimension/ben's hubs?

Yeah. It's just when they're configured to be used with a skewer, the axle is cut down to be flush with the fork ends/dropouts. With track nuts, naturally, the axle has be a bit longer.

Or I could be wrong? But that's how I've seen it done.

Formula brand lockring suckkkkk. Threads are so soft and brittle, don't even bother putting it on.

That's really my ONLY complaint.

I used to have some Joytech hubs that were keirin spaced, and even that lockring wasn't as bad as those black Formula ones.

I know Formula brand hubs come with "Phil Wood" color bearing covers. Might give the illusion that they use better cartridge bearings than the regular "black" cartridges, but there's no difference. All made in Taiwan.

are you referring to the lockring or the threading of the hub. my friend just stripped the threads off the hub from his kilo tt. apart from the option of the fixed fixed, that is one of the main reasons im going to be upgrading to a new wheelset. this is going to be very relevant to my purchase decision...

i already have a surly lockring and cog. so a formula lockring will most likely be thrown the personal parts bin.

The Kilo hubs are significantly lowered quality than the Formula hubs. They don't even almost spin smoothly.

I'm talking about the actual lockring and its threads. Formula hubs come with a black lockring that's made of aluminum and weighs next to nothing.

I have no experience with Surly cog or lockring. Though the Surly lockring is made of stainless steel. You should be fine. You gotta watch out for those aluminum ones. Make sure you FULLy understand how you're supposed to put a cog and lockring on. Be gentle, don't cross or jump threads, and your Surly lockring should be great.

A few Asian companies manufacture good basic cost-effective hubs (such as Novatec and Formula). These are then rebranded and sold under several names. The rebranding name is unimportant. Its not just a track/FG/SS hub phenomenon. These companies make all kinds of hubs, some for walmart bikes and others for very high end wheelsets. Additionally, there is a larger number of costly boutique brands (such as Phil Wood or White Industries) that actually manufacture unique hubs, usually with non-interchangable parts or designs.

However, thats no secret.

The real secret about hubs is that budget hubs such as Formulas perform as well as high-end hubs (like Phil Wood). The basic (non-proprietary) design of these Asian hubs is also an advantage because replacement hardware is readily available and costs pennies. This is particularly true for track hubs, because they have a very basic design (unlike many freehubs, which are inherently more complex and have a wider variety of designs). Hubs are probably one of the least broken bike parts, and they almost always outlast the other wheel components. The performance of the hub really boils down to the smoothness of the bearings. However, even cheap hubs tend to have smooth bearings and, if not, you can always replace the bearings for very little money. For what its worth, the stock bearings in my formula hubs are much much smoother than the stock bearings in some of the high end hubs I have owned that cost 6 times as much.

Some will claim that cheap hubs have poor threads, but in my experience that is not true. Stripped threads are usually attributable to user error and it is a problem that is not limited to Formula or Novatec hub users.

i will not stand for this blasphemy. i paid $200 for these hubs, and youre going to respect me!

No trouble with the formula lockring, here. I've been using the same one for almost a year. By the way, I love this thread.

No trouble with the formula lockring, here. I've been using the same one for almost a year.

Oh. It's coming.

Hah, no. I don't know. Consider yourself lucky, I guess.

I've used the formula lockrings for years with no problems whatsoever. They're definitely softer metal than others and will get blown out in the notches eventually, but if you put them on right, they're not going anywhere, trust. And they're like a 1/3 the cost of a dura ace one.

^

I'll pay the 10 bucks for a dura ace. i would not cut corners on my lockring over a few pennies.

So the low flange DA hub I have is really not needed for any purpose but to make me feel the Dura Ace sweetness that goes along with my DA cranks?

I always thought it was silly to pay an insane amount of money for hubs machined out of the same aluminum that the cheap ones are. If I want to upgrade for whatever reason, I'll see what I can do about more expensive bearings.

My recently bought Miche hubs, for the record, have the same size nuts as my old Formulas, and they have an integrated washer. They're just a couple dollars more than the Formula hubs and look really nice. The only thing is that I believe the lock rings are threaded differently than most, but fortunately they are included. The cog threading is standard.

The only thing is that I believe the lock rings are threaded differently than most, but fortunately they are included.

Italian threads-

Campy,Miche,Phil...

I've used the formula lockrings for years with no problems whatsoever. They're definitely softer metal than others and will get blown out in the notches eventually, but if you put them on right, they're not going anywhere, trust. And they're like a 1/3 the cost of a dura ace one.

Yes....

From reading this thread, I get the feeling that many of you misunderstand the point of the lockring. The lockring is not meant to hold the cog in place. The cog itself should be tight enough that it doesn't move. The lockring is there as a safety measure, to insure that the cog does not unscrew if it breaks loose. The lockring needs to be firm against the cog, but not vein poppin' tight. If the cog is installed correctly an aluminum lockring is sufficient. Keep in mind that the track hub/cog/lockring system was really designed for unidirectional torque (pedaling forward, not backward). Its wasn't intended for skidding and other abusive antics that many of you put your bikes through.

For that kind of treatment, of course a hardened steel lockring will be better, although there is a greater risk of thrashing your aluminum hub threads with a steel lockring. Id rather break a lockring than strip my hub. For FG antics, a bolt-on cog is a more appropriate solution.

mihlbach speaks the truth.

i love formula hubs for their consistent function and smooth bearings even though they possess little bling value. the weight of the hub is really immaterial as it's got so little rotational inertia.

also agree that formula lockring are poor quality. i run dura ace steel rings with my hubs.

+1 on the Dura Ace lockring.

Don't forget to grease those hub threads. Keeps out corrosion, keeps the threads in good shape, helps prevent stripping. It's a good idea to remove the cog once a year and regrease everything. Same for the bottom bracket. Having to remove a corroded bottom bracket is no fun at all.

Pics of bottom bracket from hell removal (http://gallery.mac.com/bbattle#100121&view=grid&bgcolor=black&sel=39)

Pics of bottom bracket from hell removal (http://gallery.mac.com/bbattle#100121&view=grid&bgcolor=black&sel=39)

:eek:

For FG antics, a bolt-on cog is a more appropriate solution.

Or, splined.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/2632027831_71b6bd94a5_d.jpg

Don't those WI splined hubs develop play?

Or, splined.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/2632027831_71b6bd94a5_d.jpg

Be wary of splined. Splined cogs will rock back and forth a tiny bit, due to a tiny bit of play, and can loosen the lockring. I had this problem on my White Industries ENO crank/chainring/lockring, which uses the same spined interface as the track hub/cog. The damn lockring would loosen every ride, resulting in an annoying creak. I spoke to WI, and they claim that a bit of play is normal. But this is a critical design flaw in my opinion. Unlike a thread-on cog, where a lockring isn't necessary, the lockring is required for a splined system, because it actually holds the cog in place and must remain tight. At any rate, blue Loctite on the lockring threads seems to have solved the problem. The bolt-on system (e.g. Tomicog) is much better. I've been using one with a Surly front disk hub that has been problem-free on my FG MTB, and its gets more abuse than any other bike I have.

zero problems with my two hubs, and the sprocket/hub splines are made to very tight tolerances.

zero problems with my two hubs, and the sprocket/hub splines are made to very tight tolerances.

Do you mean WI track hubs?

what is the deal with all these brands just re-branding the same chinese built hubs?

Hmm...are these hubs built in China or Taiwan? Big difference in my book. (both in product quality and socio-politico-enviro-economic concerns).

Do you mean WI track hubs?

Yep, splined ENO.

Yes....

From reading this thread, I get the feeling that many of you misunderstand the point of the lockring. The lockring is not meant to hold the cog in place. The cog itself should be tight enough that it doesn't move. The lockring is there as a safety measure, to insure that the cog does not unscrew if it breaks loose. The lockring needs to be firm against the cog, but not vein poppin' tight. If the cog is installed correctly an aluminum lockring is sufficient. Keep in mind that the track hub/cog/lockring system was really designed for unidirectional torque (pedaling forward, not backward). Its wasn't intended for skidding and other abusive antics that many of you put your bikes through.

For that kind of treatment, of course a hardened steel lockring will be better, although there is a greater risk of thrashing your aluminum hub threads with a steel lockring. Id rather break a lockring than strip my hub. For FG antics, a bolt-on cog is a more appropriate solution.
+1 :thumb:

Good points, all.

Hmm...are these hubs built in China or Taiwan? Big difference in my book. (both in product quality and socio-politico-enviro-economic concerns).

The later. You should realize, however, that a lot of Taiwanese companies actually have factories in mainland China, so many of the supposedly higher quality Tiawanese bike products are actually made in China.

Yes....

Its wasn't intended for skidding and other abusive antics that many of you put your bikes through.



lulz.

neway, im really glad you all have so much input on the matter, i feel like ill be make a MUCH more informed decision about the wheel built now.

hope others found this helpful as well.

Yep, splined ENO.

Thats good to hear. I'm interested in those hubs, but was put off by the problems I had with their splined crankset/chainring.

You guys have a lot of fortitude in reminding the newer people that most upgrades aren't necessary. I kinda gave up.

Having to remove a corroded bottom bracket is no fun at all.

Pics of bottom bracket from hell removal (http://gallery.mac.com/bbattle#100121&view=grid&bgcolor=black&sel=39)

Of course, the other lesson here is to not leave your Fuso underwater for several years...

Of course, the other lesson here is to not leave your Fuso underwater for several years...

Exactly. I bought it off eBay. Bilenky repainted it and had to replace the downtube. I should be getting it back this week, if not today.

Just run Campy record. The only name in hubs as far as im concerned

Just run Campy record. The only name in hubs as far as im concerned

Then you are a close-minded fool.

Wow, I thought Campy hubs were waaay more expensive. Google shopping turns up less than 300 for a set at Total Cycling. I wish I had the money to pick up a set and squirrel them away for something rad...

...who wants to sponsor me? No? Ok...