Bicycle Mechanics - Exploding spoke and customer service (long)

For your consideration:

Earlier this week I broke two non-drive side spokes on my mtb, and yesterday took my wheel in to my favorite LBS for repair. I went to the back, and a tech I hadn't met before indicated he could fix me up right there. He put the wheel in the stand and started work on it. As he wrenched away, I stood chatting with the head mechanic, a nice guy whom I've known personally for some time.

After about ten minutes, the tech pulled the wheel out of the stand and laid it axle down and flexed the rim, flipped and repeated. He then put it back in the stand and started adjusting nipples again. Shortly thereafter, I stood watching as one of the spokes *exploded* out of the rim (broke at the hub flange) and shot across the room, nearly hitting the tech in the face. Even blew off the Velox. Definitely spooked him.

Upon further inspection, it was revealed that the eyelet in the rim had been destroyed as well. The service manager said it wasn't repairable (Sun Ryhno Lite). The tech said "This is a nice hub, you should keep it," and grabbed some Mavic mountain rims and offered them, saying "we could build this up for you."
He also said "and he needs to build it" while indicating head mechanic). I said I would think about it, and get back to him, as I was already later than I expected. I also mentioned that I expected a little help from their end as well.

Last night I went online and found the same rims, only in CD ceramic, for the same price the LBS was offering the base model. I ordered the ceramics for delivery next week.

Today I called the shop (tech wasn't in) and spoke with the head mechanic, told him I'd ordered the rims, and suggested I come in early next week so perhaps they could help me get riding again. He told me that was a problem, that they didn't do any work on parts not bought in their shop. I understand the reasoning, but mentioned that perhaps since I came in for two spokes and ended up leaving with no rim, perhaps they could help me out in this case. I offered to pay for all parts and materials, if they could just build the new wheel for me.

He then denied remembering anything about the prior day's incident, and I was suddenly and mysteriously put on hold for about five minutes until I got bored and hung up.

I plan to talk to the owner, with whom I also have a good relationship (many thousands of dollars over eight years good) on Monday, but I don't want to be a prick.


I'd like your opinions. Am I way out of line here? That wheel was essentially built by them last fall after an overshift resulted in massive gouging and failure of many of the drive side spokes. I feel that since the tech had done quite a bit of work on it yesterday immediately prior to the violent spoke failure, the incident was probably due to some error on his part. Was it? And, if so, what would be a reasonable request on my part to resolve the problem?

Note: I really like this shop...they're by far the best around, and I'd prefer not to have to go somewhere else. And I realize deep down this is all my fault anyway for never having the patience to learn to build wheels. :(

Thanks in advance for your input.

I don't think you're out of line. It's rediculous for a shop to have a policy of not working on anything not purchased in their store. Also, it's not your fault for not having learned how to build a wheel. The extreme conclusion to that kind of reasoning would that we don't really need stores or bike manufacturers... we should all have learned how to frabricate our own bikes from scratch.

First, if the wheel had just broken two spokes, there was more breakage to come. The tech probably exaberated it by doing some unskilled truing.(Personally I don't like the "mash it on the floor" method of stress relieving, it is not controlled enought for me).

As far as the rim cost goes I am unsurprised about the price difference, mailorder is a way different kind of business operation and the cost of staying profitable is different. They also often buy stuff "second hand" from the big distributors. Not to give away wholesale pricing, but a Mavic ceramic rim cost me $55 the last time I ordered one.

They should build your wheel, it did fail in their hands. I don't care where the parts come from, myself. I may, however, not give you my lifetime true, if you buy elsewhere (I have to get something for the perks :) )

P.S. NOBODY forgets about a spoke shooting across the shop

Reasonable
You generously offered to pay for all parts and labor, they should not turn away your business, even if they didn't get the total sale, are they making that great of a living htey don't need your business? If you bring your rims in and they note a deficiency in the rims you provide, then they should decline to build those rims.
Unreasonable
Spoke shooting across the room coincidental, you have no evidence the tech caused this.

Best wishes
T/E

I normally do what I consider the right thing and buy my parts there. My main reason for mailordering was not cost, but the time factor...they couldn't have gotten them in the shop that quickly, based on past experience.

Rev., I'm not that long a drive from you. . .how much extra to guarantee that lifetime true? I'll source the spokes from you, if that helps. :D

With some exceptions, if I build a wheel (my parts) I will true it for free for the life of the wheel. I will usually do it for life anyway as long as the rim and spokes are new. This does not include wrapping it around a tree or the guy looking for a bomb-proof wheel to do his Bender impersonation on :)

Hmm, ask if he would do it if you buy spokes from him :)

It's ridiculous for a shop to have a policy of not working on anything not purchased in their store.



No, it isn't.

We agreed to install a rather large hard drive for a customer (who'd bought it from DABS at a rather good price) that turned out to be DOA.

That didn't end well.

We decided not to install parts that our competitors had profited from ever again.










Last night I went online and found the same rims, only in CD ceramic, for the same price the LBS was offering the base model. I ordered the ceramics for delivery next week.

Today I called the shop and spoke with the head mechanic, told him I'd ordered the rims


Now this is plain cheeky... you want to save a few dollars on ceramic rims by buying online and bringing them to the LBS to fit?

Business IS business! If they can afford not to have a customer, ask them flat out and if so, take it to another shop.

I am constantly checking to see where I can save $$$ regardless if it's online. That being said, I usually do just as well, sometimes better, at the LBS.

If a shop refuses to build something because you didn't buy it there ask them if they can understand your point of view. Be polite. I'd explain that the rim was junk (they already know this), based on past experiences they don't seem too quick with their orders and that bothers you because you want to be back on the trail, and cost is obviously a factor. See what they have to say...don't talk first at this point. Let them respond to your concerns.

See if in the future they can work with you on prices, not saying they have to match the Web, but to get closer is alright. I bought a scuba reg from a local shop which matched an unbelievable online price even after I said they just needed to be close. I told the guy I'd even pay them what I'd have to pay online for shipping costs (online reg was $120 + $20 sh = $140) and he matched the online retailer for the $120! He got the business for sure.

PJBAZ

It is not unreasonable for a shop not to want to worl on things not purchased there. The first thing I can come up wit his liability. Example: Customer buys X-Mart bike, brings it to me to rebuild, bike fails after on them during a ride a few weeks later. They bring it back saying, "you worked on it....."
Same goes for your wheels. Now on the other hand I would build them for you no sweat, however it would be made clear that besides, build issues that any mechanical failure of that product would not be my responsibility, and would not be held liable for warranty issues if the rims failed etc. if however you bought everything from me then replacement would be immediate providing yo did not do anything beyond the realm of reason while riding.
I don't want to sound like a prick either but I will say that you do not sound like one as well. A middle ground can be met that sastifies evryone involved.

I would question going back after being "on hold" for five minutes. If I pulled that crap on my job, I'd be standing in the unemployment line. Having known these men for years makes it worse.

A middle ground can be met that sastifies evryone involved.



The middle ground is clear - if you want the LBS to work on your bike, don't go cheap by expecting them to work on parts you've sourced more cheaply elsewhere.

i dunno, i think they're being a tad unreasonable. they'd get the money for the spokes, rim strip, probably the tire, plus the wheelbuilding charge. and just flat out refusing to work on anything that wasn't bought from that shop is ridiculous. so if i brought my bike that i snagged off ebay in for a tune-up, they wouldn't work on it? or if i bought i bike at another shop, because they didn't carry that line, then brought it in for service because their mechanics are better they wouldn't work on it? i just don't see the sense in refusing to give sevice to someone who's willing to pay for it.

i once bought a set of high-dollar hubs at another shop, then took them to another shop where i bought the rims, spokes, rim tape, tires and tubes, and had them build them up for me, just because i know that the wheelbuilder there is better than the wheelbuilder at the shop where i bought the hubs. although, i probably would've just had it all done at the first shop if they had the rims i wanted in stock...the second shop had the hubs, but for $50 more...i could've tried to haggle with shop #2, but why go to the trouble if i KNOW i can get it cheaper elsewhere? plus, they got the money from all the parts i bought, plus the labor charge for the wheelbuilding.

To give my 2 cents. What the policy of the bike shop is should not be the question. They have the policy they have. However, I would consider it rude to go and get parts online, then have the bike shop work on them. If you are building the wheels yourself, then go ahead and get the rims, spokes, hubs at different places. If you want the bike shop to work on your bike, then you get the parts at the bike shop. It is the same principle as going into a restaurant bringing your own food. It is your right to shop for the best price, but it is their right to refuse you if you do.

About the issue of the shop being responsible for the shot out rim: The practice of stress relieving the spokes on a newly built wheel by putting it on the floor and flexing the rim is perfectly okay. That said, it is probably not a good idea to do it on a used wheel, but if they did it and a spoke broke, then it probably means that you had more broken spokes coming your way in the future from that wheel, and soon.

You did say that this bike shop is the best around, so servicing a customer with a big job who gets their parts elsewhere is not in their best interest. A bike shop which will build wheels would not be one I would try to make compete for their work. Not many bike shops do that anymore, and if they are willing to do it for less then $200, then I would not go bringing in parts purchased from the internet.

Thanks to all for your input. . .if I were expecting 100% agreement, I certainly wouldn't have posted in a forum populated by so many shop employees. :)

Apparently the economics of the typical bike shop are not such that the service department can turn a profit without tapping into the retail markup to help cover overhead. Whether or not that is a sound business model is a question for another day, I suppose. For now, let that dead horse lie.

I am more curious about the comments some have given hinting that my wheel was already trashed (i.e. non-repairable or soon to be) when I went to the shop in the first place. This is outside my realm of experience. Do two non-adjacent broken spokes indicate the rim is totally ruined and should be disposed of? If this is common knowledge among experts, I certainly won't press the issue at my LBS, and I'll find someone else to build my new wheels, no hard feelings, etc.

Thanks again.

I'll find someone else to build my new wheels, no hard feelings, etc.


I spend money at my LBS (>$400 last year) and I buy online too.

Yesterday, they installed a cassette that I bought online for me (I don't have the tools). If they would have refused to do this installation, I'd never darken their door again and I doubt as a consumer I'm in the minority here.

I spend money at my LBS (>$400 last year) and I buy online too.

Yesterday, they installed a cassette that I bought online for me (I don't have the tools). If they would have refused to do this installation, I'd never darken their door again and I doubt as a consumer I'm in the minority here.


And if they close coz everyone is getting on their high horse and not using them, where are you going to get your bike stuff installed? Another LBS? What if they close too, coz you're saving a few cents buying stuff for them to install, online?

To Moonshot: Installing a cassette to a wheel is a job which takes less than 5 minutes; they probably do not even charge you. That is a small job. Building a wheel can take up to 2 or 3 hours and the expertise of a wheel builder. That is a large job.

To gastrocnemius: No, having two spokes fail is not a sign that the _rim_ is shot, but it is a sign that the wheel should be fully rebuilt with new spokes or be replaced. The rim being shot is the result of not recognizing this and trying to salvage a wheel by just replacing the broken spokes. A spoke should never break by lateral force (such as stress relieving). Such a spoke will break very quickly under normal riding conditions. The bike shop should have recognized this and recommended a different course of action instead of trying to replace the broken spokes. Just out of curiosity, how much was the bike shop charging to rebuild your wheel? Did they cut you a deal for the work because of the rim being damaged in their hands?

Just out of curiosity, how much was the bike shop charging to rebuild your wheel? Did they cut you a deal for the work because of the rim being damaged in their hands?

I don't know how much they were going to charge me for the spoke replacement. I assumed they would charge a fair price as always.

The deal I finalized after speaking with the owner this afternoon was they would build my new wheels (yes, front also) with the mailorder rims, my existing hubs, and I pay for spokes and labor. He alluded to both the fact that the wheel should have been totally rebuilt and to my long-time customer status as factors.

I am satisfied (and much more knowlegeable). . .he will continue to get my business. Thanks to all who provided helpful input.

To Moonshot: Installing a cassette to a wheel is a job which takes less than 5 minutes; they probably do not even charge you. That is a small job. Building a wheel can take up to 2 or 3 hours and the expertise of a wheel builder. That is a large job.

If it takes 2 or 3 hours to build a wheel, the person building it isn't an experienced wheelbuilder.

Retro Grouch: you are probably right, but the point is still there. The cassette is a quick job where the wheel build is a not-quick job. Heck, with the cassette, you can buy $15 worth of tools (chain whip + lock ring remover) and save the gas lugging the wheel to the shop.

:) Brian, I wasn't trying to draw any comparison between replacing a cassette and rebuilding a wheel. I was just saying if my LBS refused to install a part just because I bought it off the Internet I would not be inclined to trade with them anymore.

And I was a little off topic. I'm sorry about that.

Your story is just another of many, many reasons to avoid bikes shops. Unless I'm just browsing to pick up some inexpensive doo-dad, where I can get it and go without talking to anyone but whoever rings up the sale, I don't have anything to do with them. I do know that there are bound to be some good ones out there. But that's similar to trying to find the honest used car salesman, you know there's gotta be one, but who can afford the search and the aggrevation?

I more or less agree with Don Cook. I do my own work on my bike because then i know if I didn't get it quite right I don't have to shell out more money (and the pain in the butt of traveling to the bike shop, waiting, etc) to get it fixed. Repair professionals (for bikes, cars, and all kinds of other things) are notorious. Some are good, but the ones that aren't will often need two or more attempts before they can fix a problem.

"But that's similar to trying to find the honest used car salesman, you know there's gotta be one, but who can afford the search and the aggrevation?"

"Repair professionals (for bikes, cars, and all kinds of other things) are notorious."



OH, nice. Thanks for the sweeping inflammatory generalizations. Good work, pat yourselves on the back.