General Cycling Discussion - Internal gear hubs vs derailers.

Can someone please explain why with all the advancement
in internal geared hubs derailers are still so popular??

In my view derailers were ok when all you had was a 3 sp hub
or a single speed hub. Derailers were an easy way to "gear
up" a bike. Now I wonder if derailers are still the best
way to put gearing on a bike. What do think??

Internal geared hubs are more expensive, more complicated and alot heavier. Those are the only two reasons but significant enough that it won't work for the majority of bikes.

It is totally impractical for road racing.

Can someone please explain why with all the advancement
in internal geared hubs derailers are still so popular??

In my view derailers were ok when all you had was a 3 sp hub
or a single speed hub. Derailers were an easy way to "gear
up" a bike. Now I wonder if derailers are still the best
way to put gearing on a bike. What do think??

The big loser for internal hubs is that the gear-to-gear drive loses around 8% efficiency vs. a roller chain and sprocket drive. When people worry themselves to death over the tiniest performance advantage, 8% is huge.

Internal hubs for now are heavy and not as reliable as the derailleur system. BUT in the near future these internal hubs will be lightened by using more plastic internal parts. The biggest fear I have with this system is that, and I hope I'm very wrong, that these type of systems could replace the derailleur. Even if they don't, they are very difficult to repair by a home cyclist compared to a derailleur which could present a problem cost wise even if they just take over 25% of the market. Let me explain; your local LBS mechanic will be renamed technician, that in turn will provide a reason to jack up the labor rates to repair bicycles to $40-$60 per hour, combine that with routine maintence that you cannot do at home, and less reliability...hmm where have I seen this happen before...? Don't get me wrong, I personally think that a master bike mechanic SHOULD be paid more than $5-$7 per hour and probably closer to $10-$12.

y'all are weight weenies!! I love my internal gear hubs. In combo with another system, you can stretch the 7 or 8 speed hub to 14 to 24 speeds. IMO Rohloff is prob still the leading performance internal hub; I'd bet it's pretty competitive w/ der sytems overall, even in racing applications...

At $700+ for 14-speed Rohloff internal hub, derailleurs seems darn right cheap!

y'all are weight weenies!! I love my internal gear hubs. In combo with another system, you can stretch the 7 or 8 speed hub to 14 to 24 speeds. IMO Rohloff is prob still the leading performance internal hub; I'd bet it's pretty competitive w/ der sytems overall, even in racing applications...

Rohloff, besides being very expensive, is totally useless in racing applications as are all current internal hubs.
Internal hubs would require EVERY rear wheel to have a internal hub. Not cost effective, not lightweight and since there is no real reason to change from derailleurs, it will never work in it's current state.

Derailleur evolution is progressing so it's basically a "why fix what's not broken" scenario when comparing the two systems.
I really like internal hubs like the Nexus7, plenty to like but not for the majority of applications where weight, price, cost-effectiveness and simplicity rule the day.

For road racing use, derailers are by far the best option; but for MTBs, cross and maybe even Paris-Roubaix if it was very wet, a well-sealed internal system might prevent any possible shifting problems. But you would need as many (expensive) hubs as you had spare wheels, and changing wheels might be a bit tricky if you had track ends.

But for leisure use, I think they're great. Maintenence is not really a problem, as a recrational rider is less likely to put huge forces through it, and if the Rohloff is anything to go by they only need an oil change once in a while. Granted when they do go wrong they're a major problem. And most people I know that have bikes have 21 speeds, and only use maybe six of them, plus most people don't know how to use their gears properly. A seven speed hub, with the same range as a 21 speed system, is much more useful for that kind of rider, as they are less confusing and have fewer useless gears.

And besides, deraliers (and cables) need to be properly set up, and kept lubed and clean, but most people do not know the first thing about derailers,and the tiniest problem can make them shift poorly. A hub gear (and SS chainline) is much easier to keep healthy if you have no knowledge of bikes, and it takes a lot more effort to mess one up.

Very good answers thank's. I can see now that there are two
distinct types of riders.......The Go Fast race crowd and
the Leisure Riding crowd.

Taken in that context the internal hub will benefit the LR
crowd when used on their bikes. While the GF crowd needs or
wants less weight and ease of owner/rider repair. The LR
folk's will want low maintance with superior reliablity
and the GF folk's will always be tearing up equipment in the
pursuit of their racing endevors like any other racer.

For myself I am a classic Leisure Rider to be sure which is
why I wondered why the bikes offered to LR still use the
cheaper derailers. Most LR want a "price bike" not a reliable
bike that the internal hub would offer.

Don't forget there is no replacing of cogs or chain on an internal system and no derailers to break or wear out either.

Factor that in and the initial cost of the internal hub is likely the only lay out of cash you'll have to deal with. Most replace the cog set and chain many times on a conventinal hub and a few have had derailers break in a fall or a snag. Add up those costs and I'll bet the internal hub works out cheaper in the long run.

Very good answers thank's. I can see now that there are two
distinct types of riders.......The Go Fast race crowd and
the Leisure Riding crowd.

Well, I will pipe in from another crowd. Doing any kind of dh, djing or freeriding where crashes are par for the course deraileurs are a horrible system. However cost is the limiting factor as is repair value. I dream of the day I can dump the deraileur, but for now they just don't offer enough of a positive.

However I do know several riders who use and love them. They are strong and aren't nearly as fragile as the deraileur system.

There are some advancements (not really advancements as they built upon one idea). There are a couple of companies who have take the idea of the rolhoff (which is heavy) and centred it on the bike like a bottom bracket. This remove any imbalancing and basically makes your bike feel more natural.

There has also been a push by a couple of engineers as well as honda to move to a cvt system (I don't know the mechanics behind it but it is supposed be efficient)...

There are people working on this problem, I am quite happy to see (hear) that shimano is creating a nexus line for mtb usage. I think that could be a good first step into eliminating a very weak (strength wise) system.

Internal do weigh a more and they cost more(partly due to low production). They are more reliable and probably durable enough for racers; I dought your going to break a gear tooth and I know for a fact the well lubed gears hidden from grit will far outlast derailer components say 100Kmiles and the flexy chain needed for derailers has 1/4 the life of single speed chains. 16,18, or 20 speed derailer types arent really 16,18, or 20 speeds now are they? I mean there are raitio overlaps and 'cross' combos that aren't usefull at all. That said high end racing will probably be better suited by derailers.
F1 cars use pancake pistons and downforce, and neither one of them is suitable for utilitarian cars that need pistons to last longer than one race and don't need to be sucking themselves to the road(infact it would often be disadvantage) and race cars racing motorcycles and race bicycles generally change gearing to suit each racecourse they come to, how many people change their chevy's transmission once a month? And yes they have a mechanical energy loss large enough to make a difference in a race, but it will not effect training as total crank revoulutions, crank force, and and total workout time are the effective factors distance covered and average speed don't matter here as you may as well be on a roller stand. (inside on a roller is mucho boring of course) in this case the longevity of internal should become a major asset, just jump on and go train get home put it away, less shop time(yours or LBS's)

A few more thoughts: less cogs means less dish=stronger or lighter wheel, single cog and single chainwheel means no complex heavy slack adjuster or front derailer and a lighter driveside crank shorter lighter chain.

Does that about sum up all the postings so far.

Another thing I thought of: top racers might want to make minute adjustments to their gear ratios, which is not really possible with hub gears. You can only change the final drive ration, not the individual gears.

One more thing I just thought of :) : what about trials riders? Surely they could benefit from being able to shift without pedaling? You could be sitting on a log or a rock or whatever, and think 'man, I need a lower gear to get onto that other rock', and with a hub gear, you could, but not with a derailer. Meh.

CVT =(continuously variable transmission)
Basicaly better than corncobs but I mean hey do you nead less than a 5rpm difference in cadence between gears? and most ctv are not that efficiant they just keep the engine at a constant rpm which in machines is efficiant in cyclists effiiance isn't changed that much between 60 an 100 rpm, and the mechanical losses in the system are significant. Two CVT already in use are hydrolic like tracked equipment uses(bulldozers, excavators, bobcats) where the motor runs a hydrolic pump and the tracks are driven by a hydralic motor and the operator controls flow(thus power) with a two valves hooked to two long levers(right track and left) full power reverse can be had just by reversing flow with the valves. The other is the variable pulley on snomobiles this uses a v belt and two pullies like an old cars fanbelt but one of the pullies is splitinto two circular plates when together the belt rides far from the pulley axle as more torque is applied the plates(which are held together by springs) start to seperate and the belt rides close to the pully axel creating a higher gear (like shifting to a smaller rear cog)
Both have a lot of friction.

Williams built a formula 1 car with CVT in the early ninties, so it can't be that bad. Stupid FIA did what all good governing bodies do and banned it :(

Interesting discussion.

Somebody built a CVT into a chainset, back in the late 80's........I can picture it, but I'm darned if I can remember it's name. It seemed to work but was fussy and likely expensive to manufacture and maintain.

We all know most modern derailleur benefits are wasted. Systems are set up and used inefficiently in applications where a good, durable 5-speed internal hub gear would be most suitable. The limited availability of 'odd' sized chainwheels and rear cogs shows how little we tailor gearing to our own riding styles and destinations. We just take what we're offered.

Reality is, if I'm off-road touring, I use a limited number of lowish gears. If I'm racing a flat TT or criterium, again I only employ a small number of the gears on offer. 20 'choices' an a road bike, and even more on an MTB, are usually excessive. Cue rant about status envy, manufacturers' marketing hype, rampant consumerism, etc., etc.

As an old-school British all-rounder type, I've always ridden fixed in winter, raced TT's with close-ratio 5 and 6 speed freewheels, enjoyed restricted gear road racing, both as a junior and after. The only times I ever needed the spread of a modern set-up was when touring with a load, in hilly terrain, or racing on long and difficult courses.

I think plenty of others share my belief that today's derailleur systems are wonderful in their element- it's just that they are not a good choice in all circumstances. Just as the Honda 50 is the greatest motorcycle ever made, according to sales, so there will always be a place for deliberately simple, repairable and durable bikes and components. The time is ripe for some further development in the utility sphere- and I'm not talking about absurdly pricey hubs.

Here are the 2 things I am keeping my eye on

http://www.g-boxx.org/index.html
http://www.descent-world.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14118.0 (this site has links and pics)

I agree flaneur...in any given situration I 'usually' limit myself to 5-9 gears, however some circumstances I have used upward of 15...None of my bikes have the big ring on them (you are probably the opposite but the bigring offers me nothing for my type of riding)...

Let's forget weight, as it is a non-issue for the touring guy or for most utility cyclists. However:
- With a derailleur, one needs to pedal while shifting whereas it's possible to shift while stopped with internal gears.
- Internal gears are protected from the elements, but a derailleur is fairly easy to lubricate. Chain lubrification is similar in both cases.
- A priori, wheel removal and replacement is easier with a derailleur. No problem in getting the chain tight enough.
- Internal gears should be more durable. However, a derailleur system is easier to repair in the field: a nice option while touring.
- With a little ingenuity, one may build a personalised cassette (by combining cogs from different cassettes); one may also select proper chainrings. That way, one may decide the ratios one wants. Not possible with internal gearing.

The last two elements are important for me.

Rohloff, besides being very expensive, is totally useless in racing applications as are all current internal hubs.
Internal hubs would require EVERY rear wheel to have a internal hub. Not cost effective, not lightweight and since there is no real reason to change from derailleurs, it will never work in it's current state.

Derailleur evolution is progressing so it's basically a "why fix what's not broken" scenario when comparing the two systems.
I really like internal hubs like the Nexus7, plenty to like but not for the majority of applications where weight, price, cost-effectiveness and simplicity rule the day.

Bingo. As the owner of three internal geared bicycles, I am now selling two of them and moving onto derailluer systems. WHY?

1. Weight, Weight, Weight - The Nexus 7 hub weights almost four pounds and when put on the rear wheel, feels like you're carrying two water bottles. This weight is significant and you will spend more energy moving that rear wheel when distances are longer than 25 miles. My experience has shown the heavy Nexus 7 load will lose momentum very fast. If you put this hub in the back of a road bike, you've effectively destroyed it's performance and created a hybrid. The heavy rear wheel means you will be be peddaling more and coasting less.

2. Friction Loses - The Nexus 7 or Sturmey Archer have both friction loses that feel like you're peddalling a generator. It's incredible how much energy is lost in this process compared to a cassette. There is NO way you lose just 8 percent compared to a derailluer system because it's much more. The bearing of a 105 hub is waaaaaay more efficient than what's inside the Sturmey Archer system. The Ultregra hub is incredibly light with low rolling resistance and as a result, you travel further with less effort. This alone is reason enough to choose a cassette over any hub system.

3. More Dangerous - Did you ever stand on a Sturmey Archer/Sram hub while going up a hill?? I wouldn't advise it. The gear can slip and over the handle bars you go! Furthermore, riding fast and hitting ruts and pot holes can cause the gears to slip into neutral.

4. Time Consuming in repairing Flat tires - Did you ever get a rear wheel flat tire on the Nexus system? If you did, get ready to spend some time because the is NOT easy to take off.

Over the past four years, my opinion on hub gears have changed. I used to think they were the greatest things in the world but I'm now moving away from them because my riding style is getting more aggressive. I will only keep one hub geared bicycle (Sturmey Archer) for commuting purposes only. My weekend bicycles will only use a cassette.

Can someone please explain why with all the advancement
in internal geared hubs derailers are still so popular??

In my view derailers were ok when all you had was a 3 sp hub
or a single speed hub. Derailers were an easy way to "gear
up" a bike. Now I wonder if derailers are still the best
way to put gearing on a bike. What do think??

This quote sounds like the individual is either new to cycling or never had a bicycle with quality components. (Durace, Campy)

- Internal gears should be more durable. However, a derailleur system is easier to repair in the field: a nice option while touring.

The last two elements are important for me.

The last option is critical when touring. A derailluer system can be fixed in most parts of the world but a hub gear system is not! I have trouble finding a quality wrench in New York City that will take the time to bother with a Stumey Archer hub. Most shops will tell you to just buy a new one because it's dirt cheap. In fact, asking them to service the hub cost almost as much as a brand new wheel.

Originally Posted by Tightwad
Can someone please explain why with all the advancement
in internal geared hubs derailers are still so popular??

In my view derailers were ok when all you had was a 3 sp hub
or a single speed hub. Derailers were an easy way to "gear
up" a bike. Now I wonder if derailers are still the best
way to put gearing on a bike. What do think?




This quote sounds like the individual is either new to cycling or never had a bicycle with quality components. (Durace, Campy)

How can anyone engage in polite open discussion
when they will be held up to ridicule because they
are not fully up to speed with all the others who
post in bikeforums? How else can one learn from
others who are willing to share and ,at times,
mentor new or returning riders. I consider this
post to be arrogant, rude and adds nothing of value
to this discussion.

Originally Posted by Tightwad Can someone please explain why with all the advancement in internal geared hubs derailers are still so popular??

In my guess, manufactures can produce a bike with a lower initial cost if they keep with a derailer system, and since derailers systems work better for performance orientated bikes justifying their use in that circumstance, large groups of buyers want to mimic thier heros who ride fast, even if they won't be using their bikes in the same way, so they buy what they see their heros use.

How can anyone engage in polite open discussion
when they will be held up to ridicule because they
are not fully up to speed with all the others who
post in bikeforums? How else can one learn from
others who are willing to share and ,at times,
mentor new or returning riders. I consider this
post to be arrogant, rude and adds nothing of value
to this discussion.

I didn't mean to be rude. I was there myself not long ago and I'm still learning. If this post had been listed on the "Road Bike" forum, you would have been ridiculed as most of those posting are aggressive cyclists. I thought you were referring why hub gears with their high popularity are not replacing cassette based systems. This type of question comes from someone (like myself) who started out on a 3 speed folding bicycle. But the prospect of a hub based system ever replacing the cassette is likely never to happen because of the advantages of the latter are like night and day.

I don't regret the decision to buy that 3 speed bicycle and will probably keep it for commuting purposes only. I do regret buying my other 2 Nexus cycles when I should have purchased a road bike. If you're at the begginers level, a hub geared bicycle would be perfect.

Rohloff, besides being very expensive, is totally useless in racing applications as are all current internal hubs.
Internal hubs would require EVERY rear wheel to have a internal hub. Not cost effective, not lightweight and since there is no real reason to change from derailleurs, it will never work in it's current state.

Derailleur evolution is progressing so it's basically a "why fix what's not broken" scenario when comparing the two systems.
I really like internal hubs like the Nexus7, plenty to like but not for the majority of applications where weight, price, cost-effectiveness and simplicity rule the day.

Agreed. The Rohloff speedhub is heavier than the Nexus 7! I highly doubt you can win a race with a four pound disadvantage on the rear wheel. I don't even think the cost of a hub gear is what's preventing the device from entering professional competition. A Sram 3 speed hub is less than $100.00 dollars. If you compare most cassette based systems on quality bikes, they're actually more expensive than one with an internal hub.

As Races X stated above, there is nothing wrong with the derailleur system and if kept clean and lubricated, will run well. I purchased a cheap Chromoly street bike with an older cassette system (Suntour). I don't get all the gears but then again, I'll only use 4 or 5 for the entire day!

Well, I just put a SRAM/Sachs 3spd hub on an old road frame - before it was a single speed, which is just about the most efficient drivetrain you can have on a bicycle (sans fixed perhaps?)... and I can't tell a difference in efficiency from SS to 3 spd internal hub. I will say that I did ride a Columbia 3spd with an old old old S/A hub and that was ugly... but these news hubs I dig. I maintain easily 18-19mph on the 3spd right now with little effort, glides right along... and haven't had any ghost shifts (which I constantly experienced with every derailleur I've ever ridden, no matter how many times I, or the shop would tune them). The weight, while it is only a 3spd, I barely notice... and I'm looking forward anxiously to the Nexus 8... if I had a decent job I'd be all over the Rohloff.

As for gear steps, its true the 3 spd has wide gaps, but for commuting at least... I shift to 2nd for stops and generally just shift right into 3rd... no big deal and reserve 1st for steep hills or while carrying loads up normal hills... works out well.. No futzing with 9, 18.. 24... 27 gears...

Just my thoughts.

As for repair.. it is of course possible and more of a challenge to fix these ... parts are readily available generally and the Shimano line even uses just, the word escapes me, but cartridge component parts - so if something go bad.. you take the hub apart, remove the offending cartridge and replace it.

Derailleurs are kludgy and not elegant at all... its a bodge, but one that works, generally. Internal gear hubs were around before the derailleur and I'm quite sure they will be around for a very long time.

Bingo. As the owner of three internal geared bicycles, I am now selling two of them and moving onto derailluer systems. WHY?

1. Weight, Weight, Weight -

2. Friction Loses - The Nexus 7 or Sturmey Archer have both friction loses that feel like you're peddalling a generator. It's incredible how much energy is lost in this process compared to a cassette. There is NO way you lose just 8 percent compared to a derailluer system because it's much more.

4. Time Consuming in repairing Flat tires - Did you ever get a rear wheel flat tire on the Nexus system? If you did, get ready to spend some time because the is NOT easy to take off.



These are all real disadvantages to the internal hub compared to the derailler. The friction losses from some hubs in lower gear can be over 10%. A properly maintained chain and derailler will lose only 1% or less of rider energy compared to direct drive. That's a *significant* difference.

Internal hubs are easier to maintain though (flat tires aside). They make chainguards realistic, too.

I doubt there will be any practical replacement for deraillers and chains in our lives.

As Races X stated above, there is nothing wrong with the derailleur system and if kept clean and lubricated, will run well. I purchased a cheap Chromoly street bike with an older cassette system (Suntour). I don't get all the gears but then again, I'll only use 4 or 5 for the entire day!

I think the deraileur system is weak for aggresive mountain bikers (not using any of the coined words)...deraileurs and hangers are destroyed daily. I personally go through 5 hangers a year and usually a couple of deraileurs. If I ride in a group of 5 I can promise at least 1 will go almost weekly...(thats a conservative number)

I know racers and road riders can right this off as a waste but there is a market for it. I do wish there was a valid alternative to something hanging off the side. Shimano tried some new positions and multi pivot deraileurs but as of yet, they aren't much better. (the chainlines are kept cleaner so it is a 'better' system but it really didn't solve the main concern with deraileurs)

Ironically the best mountain deraileurs are short cage road deraileurs...haha

These are all real disadvantages to the internal hub compared to the derailler. The friction losses from some hubs in lower gear can be over 10%. A properly maintained chain and derailler will lose only 1% or less of rider energy compared to direct drive. That's a *significant* difference.

Internal hubs are easier to maintain though (flat tires aside). They make chainguards realistic, too.

I doubt there will be any practical replacement for deraillers and chains in our lives.

I also forgot to mention that as the hub gets older (2 or 3 years) the friction gets worse! The losses can be 10% when the hub is brand new but much more when the hub gets older. If you go to an LBS and request them to re-grease the hub, most will look at you kind of strange and charge you about the price of a new one.

I think the deraileur system is weak for aggresive mountain bikers (not using any of the coined words)...deraileurs and hangers are destroyed daily. I personally go through 5 hangers a year and usually a couple of deraileurs. If I ride in a group of 5 I can promise at least 1 will go almost weekly...(thats a conservative number)

I know racers and road riders can right this off as a waste but there is a market for it. I do wish there was a valid alternative to something hanging off the side. Shimano tried some new positions and multi pivot deraileurs but as of yet, they aren't much better. (the chainlines are kept cleaner so it is a 'better' system but it really didn't solve the main concern with deraileurs)

Ironically the best mountain deraileurs are short cage road deraileurs...haha

If you're destroying deraileurs and hangers that much, why not try the Nexus system? Do NOT try Sturmey Archer or Sram as those hubs were designed for town bikes. I figured, what have you got to lose in destroying the Nexus? I would put on a larger cog in the back to get a lower gear.

A person like you would be a good tester for that kind of abuse. I doubt the Nexus would last in your hands because the hub was not designed for mountain biking but it would be good to see all the problems you discovered.

I also forgot to mention that as the hub gets older (2 or 3 years) the friction gets worse! The losses can be 10% when the hub is brand new but much more when the hub gets older. If you go to an LBS and request them to re-grease the hub, most will look at you kind of strange and charge you about the price of a new one.

I'll be the first to admit that I've been away from bikes for
several years now. Your observation that a hub will CAUSE
more drag as it ages is a suprise to me. Is this due to the
lube aging? As you've correctly noted excessive friction
loss even for Leisure Riders will kill the fun of the ride.

Have you ever heard of or tried using Synthetic lube in a
hub?

If you're destroying deraileurs and hangers that much, why not try the Nexus system? Do NOT try Sturmey Archer or Sram as those hubs were designed for town bikes. I figured, what have you got to lose in destroying the Nexus? I would put on a larger cog in the back to get a lower gear.

A person like you would be a good tester for that kind of abuse. I doubt the Nexus would last in your hands because the hub was not designed for mountain biking but it would be good to see all the problems you discovered.

I believe shimano is currently trying to come up with a cheap alternative to the roholff built specifically for dh type riding. I do know a couple of riders who tried the cruiser internally geared and destroyed it. When shimano comes out with this hub, if it is a good price, I probably will try it. :) Then I will give a review.

I'll be the first to admit that I've been away from bikes for
several years now. Your observation that a hub will CAUSE
more drag as it ages is a suprise to me. Is this due to the
lube aging? As you've correctly noted excessive friction
loss even for Leisure Riders will kill the fun of the ride.

Have you ever heard of or tried using Synthetic lube in a
hub?

Sturmey Archer hubs are sealed today so it's close to impossible to regrease the device without special tools and skills. Futhermore, these hubs came lubricated with a special grease designed specifically for the task. I remember one person who did use this oil - Synthetics (regreased the entire hub's internals!) with unsatisfactory results. You can put a drop or two of oil inside (synthetic) the hub every now and then but then you would be forced to do this over the life of the hub. The grease inside the hub dries after a couple and does not last forever.

I did put some oil (synthetic) inside an old Sturmey Archer hub and it make it work better if that's any consolation!

The Nexus 7 manual is quite extensive on this subject and (correct me if I'm wrong) actually have instructions on regreasing/servicing the hub ever 1 to 3 years if the bike is left outside! This is not for the light hearted so you'll need time/skills and tools to do this work.

The friction on my 3 speed has increased over the past 4 years. I think I'll put a drop or two of oil (synthetic) inside the hub in the following weeks. I'm willing to live with these inefficiencies because that 3 speed is basically my first bike and it's just a beater. I don't think the leisure rider will care because they are not looking for performance. I've subjected my 3 speed to snow/rain and mud in all temperatures which is why the bike is suffering. However, I will not commute in these conditions with a cassette which is why I'm willing to live with these inefficiencies. If you ride less than 30 miles on a flat terrain, the hub gears are perfect. After all, they were designed for the leisure rider.

Dahon.Steve, thank's for sharing your experience concerning
oiling of speed hubs. I'll keep it in mind when if I buy a
bike with hub gears.

Obviously these replies are all from Americans. In the real world people use their bikes for transport. Most human beings couldn't care less about some kind of racing performance hype pile of rubbish.

All these arguments about internal geared hubs are pretty one-sided. Unless you're getting paid to ride a bike in competition, or you're some kind of racing freak, internal hubs bikes are great. Please - no more ridiculous 'performance' arguments that are only relevant to professional racing - written by spotty 13 year olds that have been drooling over some fancy and impractical mountain bike they'd only use to get to school on anyway.

Obviously these replies are all from Americans. In the real world people use their bikes for transport. Most human beings couldn't care less about some kind of racing performance hype pile of rubbish.

All these arguments about internal geared hubs are pretty one-sided. Unless you're getting paid to ride a bike in competition, or you're some kind of racing freak, internal hubs bikes are great. Please - no more ridiculous 'performance' arguments that are only relevant to professional racing - written by spotty 13 year olds that have been drooling over some fancy and impractical mountain bike they'd only use to get to school on anyway.

The original question was "Why are derailleur bikes still so popular?" People provided a variety of opinions. It looks to me like opinions = popularity so that's a pretty valid answer to the question.

Answer me this: Why, do you feel it necessary to denegrate people just because they happen to hold an opinion that differs from yours?

But for leisure use, I think they're great. Maintenence is not really a problem, as a recrational rider is less likely to put huge forces through it, and if the Rohloff is anything to go by they only need an oil change once in a while.

Yeah but recreational riders are more apt to stress the system by not maintaining it as meticulously as a semiserious roadie.

I just wanted to add a brief comment to the mix. I just recently gave away to charity my last derailler based road bike. I found my 2 internal hub gear bicycles were far more easy to maintain and reliable than any derailleur system I used over the many years that I have cycled. As you get older, more experienced (or both), you might find as I have that the fanciest, latest gizmos may not be the best thing to have. I want my bikes to be dependable, not glitsy.

I just wanted to add a brief comment to the mix. I just recently gave away to charity my last derailler based road bike. I found my 2 internal hub gear bicycles were far more easy to maintain and reliable than any derailleur system I used over the many years that I have cycled. As you get older, more experienced (or both), you might find as I have that the fanciest, latest gizmos may not be the best thing to have. I want my bikes to be dependable, not glitsy.

This has exactly been my exactly experience as well. If I want to tune my bike, I make sure the wheels are true, the brakes are awesome and the derailleur system is shifting properly. Not having to deal with tuning a derailleur makes a world of difference!!! I would say, if you're not into professional racing, they're a lot more practical, especially if you're a bicycle commuter.

Interesting thread revival.

I note several items here that are of interest.

IGH weight is mentioned. The difference after removal of two derailleurs, the casette rear hub and one or two chainrings is probably about a pound. If also removing two brifters and replacing them with the IGH shifter and simple lightweight brake levers then it is probably even less. The rear wheel does become substantially heavier which changes the balance of the bike. I suspect that this is what people notice when comparing bike weights by feel. Not as true if comparing the lightest current CF derailleurs and TI casettes of course.

One MTB rider mentioned frequent derailleur damage. The Rohloff hub was originally designed for mountain bikes which is why it has 14 speeds and a 526% overall range. Less subject to mud jamming too. If you can live with the 307% gear range the current Shimano Alfine 8 speed hubs are reported to be quite rugged. One member of the Yahoo geared hub bikes group is using one on an MTB w/o problems so far.

For aging grease drag worries Shimano now offers a oiling kit for their hubs. Use does require partial disassembly of the hub but this is an option. SRAM has also indicated to me via an email that oiling their hubs is an option for cold weather or if drag becomes too high.

As far as wheel removal for flats is concerned the Rohloff with QR axle and external gear changer is almost as fast as a derailleur rear wheel. SRAM hubs are also easy to detach the shifting cable or shift box from. Carry a 15mm box end wrench and the wheel is out in a minute or two. I am not familiar enough with Shimano cable removal and reinstallation to comment.

Per tests by Chester Kyle and Frank Berto the derailleur system is not as efficient as is frequently claimed. Their test results were reported in the IHPVA Journal a number of years ago. Below is a link to the article. It includes IGH efficiency data also.

http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

I agree that an IGH is not ideal for those who want a 16 pound road racing bike but to me it is more practical than derailleur systems for the average rider of a commuting or cruiser bike. The Rohloff has gained a reputation for reliability such that many expedition and touring riders have switched to it, particularly in Europe. As for the ability to get a derailleur drive system fixed I wonder how true that is in areas that are truly remote.

For those interested there is a link to the Yahoo IGH bikes group below.

I've recently bought a Rohloff - just so that I could try it.

Prior to buying one I wasn't very convinced, however I'm happy to report it's all good :thumb:

Lots of not so positive comments about Rohloffs come from people who haven't tried them.

After many years of derailleur cycling I really didn't expect to be swayed by a geared hub - of any sort.

To me, geared hubs have always been laughable, with a pathetic gear range and poor efficiency.

I've got a tandem, a tourer, a MTB, a racer, a recumbent and some folders.

At the moment the tourer is the only bike with a Rohloff hub - my prediction (and intention) for the future is that eventually all of my bikes will either have a Rohloff hub fitted or be replaced with Rohloff specific bikes/frames.

The Rohloff hub isn't perfect, but the ease of use is addictive and the overall balance (for me) definitely falls firmly on the side of the Rohloff.

I believe the cost scares some people and that some negative comments are given for this reason.

It's not all roses, but overall I look forwards to riding my Rohloff equipped bike and have recently realised that I'd rather use it than lighter 'better' derailleur bikes I have, to the point where the bike I used to use most now has a nice layer of dust.

Did I ever think I would be swayed by a hub geared bike ? NO.

Would I ever choose a derailleur bike over a Rohloff ? NO.

In answer to the original question "Internal gear hubs vs derailers."

The day before I bought the Rohloff and for 20+ years prior to that I would say - 'no contest' - derailleurs.

Now I've had a Rohloff for a while my answer is still - 'no contest' :love:Rohloff:love: - derailleurs RIP

:)

Hub gears have their advantages: maintainance-free, reliable and for the commuter cyclist, gears can be switched even when at a stop. That makes them ideal for casual riding. Modern IGH are better manufactured and have a greater range of gears to choose from than the old three speed hubs ever did!

I think for to reasons (at least around here): Price when buying and peopel buy what the LBS has got in stock (and what theyr neighbour is riding). Here peopel tend to buy a new (cheap) bike every time the chain / casette is worn out (often ride it until the whole system breaks down, rear der bent and so on).

I used to think IGH was not cool since you can only see and buy it on "granny / granddad bikes around here. Nobody think of ordering or building.

There is absolutely no way my 13yrs old son is riding anything but a der MTB to school, due to the "cool factor". With me he enjoys riding different bikes also three speed steptrough w basket.

Most peopel who post here know you need to clean and maintain your bike to make it work. To most peopel that knowledge seems to be lost. They are dissapointed and suprised when told. I think 90% of the bikeriders I know should ride IGH and I think a lot more peopel would enjoy riding bikes if they had one.

Again and again we are told that IGH`s are less efficient after some time. What about der bikes? As somebody who dumpster dive alot I can tell you about der bikes that is not ridable becouse the two jockey wheels are so loaded with rock hard dirt that they can no longer turn, and the bike is dumped for that reason.

I picked up a steptrough bike with a Shimano 4 hub last year. Bike in perfect condition, expect for tyres and so on. Rear cog was 18 teeth, front I do not remember. I rode it for some time and changed the cog twice. Ended up with a 22 tooth cog. I bet the bike was sold with the 18 tooth cog, and of course the old lady (or man) who bought it could only use two gears like I did at first. They do not know enough to at least go to the bike shop and ask if something can be done to change the gearing.

I like Shimano hubs best, mainly I think becouse of the great system with no clickboks or anything sticking out. I put a wing nut on the small screw that attaches the arm to the chainstays. If you practice often it is really easy to change a wheel. We are told again and again it is almost impossible to do on the road and end up believing it. I used to drive around in the bush in Africa in an old pickup with no lights. Had problems with the fuel filter all the time and had to open and clean it and then bleed the system to make it go again. Used to drive with the tools on my lap (so I could find them in the dark) and then just feel my way around. Only solution to the problem, so I just did it. Same thing with flats. Had to mend the tube on the spot again and again. Just learn it and do it.

Also servicing IGH`s is not impossible. I am dealing with some older Shimano7`s at the moment. Just keep one extra wheel (or bike) so you are not under preassure when working. How many peopel service theyr rear der? Almost nobody, we just buy a new one. We buy parts for our der bikes all the time, but since we buy a cassette this month and a chain next month we think it is cheaper since we do not pay it all in once.

On my IGH bikes with coaster brakes there is almost no rim wear, no brakepads and brakes to be replaced on the rear wheel. Also less spokes to be replaced since the wheel is stronger.

Internal hubs for now are heavy and not as reliable as the derailleur system. BUT in the near future these internal hubs will be lightened by using more plastic internal parts.

Could you define not as reliable please. One of my bikes has a Nexus 7 hub, rock solid, needs no repair, really wasn't built for repair. If you check out other threads on this forum you will find the reliability of the Nexus products to be second to none. As far as using plastic parts, start doing that and watch the reliability go down real fast.

Internal hubs serve a purpose, won't find it on my road bikes but the commuter gets lots of use with no issues whatsoever.

Internal Gear Hubs vs Derailliers ?

Let's get one thing straight, if you haven't tried a Rohloff you are in no position to comment.

:)

Bingo. As the owner of three internal geared bicycles, I am now selling two of them and moving onto derailluer systems. WHY?

1. Weight, Weight, Weight - The Nexus 7 hub weights almost four pounds and when put on the rear wheel, feels like you're carrying two water bottles. This weight is significant and you will spend more energy moving that rear wheel when distances are longer than 25 miles. My experience has shown the heavy Nexus 7 load will lose momentum very fast. If you put this hub in the back of a road bike, you've effectively destroyed it's performance and created a hybrid. The heavy rear wheel means you will be be peddaling more and coasting less.

2. Friction Loses - The Nexus 7 or Sturmey Archer have both friction loses that feel like you're peddalling a generator. It's incredible how much energy is lost in this process compared to a cassette. There is NO way you lose just 8 percent compared to a derailluer system because it's much more. The bearing of a 105 hub is waaaaaay more efficient than what's inside the Sturmey Archer system. The Ultregra hub is incredibly light with low rolling resistance and as a result, you travel further with less effort. This alone is reason enough to choose a cassette over any hub system.

3. More Dangerous - Did you ever stand on a Sturmey Archer/Sram hub while going up a hill?? I wouldn't advise it. The gear can slip and over the handle bars you go! Furthermore, riding fast and hitting ruts and pot holes can cause the gears to slip into neutral.

4. Time Consuming in repairing Flat tires - Did you ever get a rear wheel flat tire on the Nexus system? If you did, get ready to spend some time because the is NOT easy to take off.

Over the past four years, my opinion on hub gears have changed. I used to think they were the greatest things in the world but I'm now moving away from them because my riding style is getting more aggressive. I will only keep one hub geared bicycle (Sturmey Archer) for commuting purposes only. My weekend bicycles will only use a cassette.


The last option is critical when touring. A derailluer system can be fixed in most parts of the world but a hub gear system is not! I have trouble finding a quality wrench in New York City that will take the time to bother with a Stumey Archer hub. Most shops will tell you to just buy a new one because it's dirt cheap. In fact, asking them to service the hub cost almost as much as a brand new wheel.

I would not be too critical of the hub gear system. During my adult life, I used both systems on my European made bikes I prefer to use. When I was younger in high school and the university, I used derailleurs as the locations of my schools were in hilly areas. I was lucky enough to buy a used Phillips 3 speed bike. I gave up riding those bikes and gave them to charity or sold them. My present bikes are all hub gears. Why? I am older now and the present bikes are geared for the terrain surrounding my house. I don't care to ride in groups so keeping up with others is not a priority for me. I don't need to stand on my pedals anymore to impress anyone. If I cannot stay in my saddle for a climb (which is very rare even today), I prefer to get off the bike and 1. find alternative transport up the hill(s), or 2. simply walk up the hill. As for servicing, except for minimal adjustments, small outer parts replacement, or oiling & greasing, I simply would buy another internal hub (hopefully already installed within the rim) and go from there. In the decade that I have been using both old and new bikes with hub gears, I never needed to replace any hub.

By the way, you have forgot to mention that derailleurs can and do get caught sometimes in bushes, low lying curbs, even odd jutting up or out road debris or at least can scrape the pavement in turning. I think they can be more dangerous than hub gears as far as that goes.


In my guess, manufactures can produce a bike with a lower initial cost if they keep with a derailer system, and since derailers systems work better for performance orientated bikes justifying their use in that circumstance, large groups of buyers want to mimic thier heros who ride fast, even if they won't be using their bikes in the same way, so they buy what they see their heros use.

You just pointed out the key to bike selection in North America. This is the dirty little secret behind most bike purchases here.

I would not be too critical of the hub gear system. During my adult life, I used both systems on my European made bikes I prefer to use. When I was younger in high school and the university, I used derailleurs as the locations of my schools were in hilly areas. I was lucky enough to buy a used Phillips 3 speed bike. I gave up riding those bikes and gave them to charity or sold them. My present bikes are all hub gears. Why? I am older now and the present bikes are geared for the terrain surrounding my house. I don't care to ride in groups so keeping up with others is not a priority for me. I don't need to stand on my pedals anymore to impress anyone. If I cannot stay in my saddle for a climb (which is very rare even today), I prefer to get off the bike and 1. find alternative transport up the hill(s), or 2. simply walk up the hill. As for servicing, except for minimal adjustments, small outer parts replacement, or oiling & greasing, I simply would buy another internal hub (hopefully already installed within the rim) and go from there. In the decade that I have been using both old and new bikes with hub gears, I never needed to replace any hub.

By the way, you have forgot to mention that derailleurs can and do get caught sometimes in bushes, low lying curbs, even odd jutting up or out road debris or at least can scrape the pavement in turning. I think they can be more dangerous than hub gears as far as that goes.



You just pointed out the key to bike selection in North America. This is the dirty little secret behind most bike purchases here.

You make a good point.

This thread is going to be four years old and my thinking on bicycles and cycling in general have changed. Since I made those long winded statements, I've sold ALL my hub geared bicycles and acquired three more! LOL!

I wish there was a way I could remove my posts not because they were totally wrong but that cycling is more than just going fast as you stated. I have more respect for the Sturmey Archer and the Nexus 8 systems today than ever before, certainly for the beginner. It takes maturity to eventually figure it all out but now that I'm becoming that "slower" cyclist on the road, my opinion changed.

Last summer I was riding to the LBS when meeting a woman on an old used mountain bike who was headed in my direction. As we approached a small hill, she had to dismount because the derailluer did not shift. I figured a woman like her would do far better on a simpler hub geared system instead of a more complex casette with triple chainring.

Guess what happened? Once we arrived at the LBS, there was a very nice, reasonbly priced hybrid with a four speed hub gear. I liked the bike a lot and pointed this to the woman who then took it for a test ride. I told her how to use the shifter and off she went. Upon returning, she was so surprised at how "Easy" it shifted and the comfortable spring saddle! Her expression made my day. I told her that bike would be mine if I didn't have too many already and some lucky person will get a bargain. Needless to say, she bought that hybrid right then and there and called her husband to bring the car over to pick it up. Her experience with that bike made me realize what's important but it took four years to figure it out.

I like that we have the two technologies; they complement one another well. For casual/city riding, once one is willing to pay for a reasonably good bike, I definitely have to come down on the side of IGH. And they're not so bad to change once you get the hang of it. ;)

...Her experience with that bike made me realize what's important but it took four years to figure it out.

I knew you'd come around sooner or later. Good post Steve.

Ever swap a wheel or change a tire on an internal hub bike?