"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Finding Matches

Ok, so now I have a power file for a race where I failed. I got dropped and now I want to figure out what went wrong (aside from the obvious). What do you look for?

This should help

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-a-match.aspx

This should help

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-a-match.aspx

I've read the article... Should gave been clearer... I'm interested in what people here actually do to look at theircrace data, not just what us recommende, if that makes sense.

What that table on trainingpeaks is doing is an integration under the curve. You want to draw a flat line across at your FTP, then calculate the area under the curve when you are above FTP. With practice and training, you can equate a certain volume/area under the curve above FTP with a "match" and know exactly how many of those you can burn through before you've got an empty book. Excel has basic curve-fitting functions that can do integrations.

I don't train with power so I may be missing some of the process here.

I'd look to see what happened immediately before getting dropped and then kind of back out and look at a wider view until I came up with some clues.

Was it a general endurance situation where the pace was a bit to too high for a while before you popped?
Hills with sharp spikes that made you dig deep to get over with the group?
Massive accelerations like in a tight crit?
Could positioning and tactics have led to different outcome?
Did you burn matches early, covering breaks, bridging, just trying to hang on?

After I came up with a reason or two that contributed to falling off, I would adjust my training to target at least some of the weaknesses.

All that being said, didn't you just upgrade? Maybe the new field is a little faster. Maybe you just need to get used to the pace and the tighter racing. Maybe you just had a bad day.

Good luck with figuring it out, but you have got to be honest with yourself. The bag of excuses if for friends and teammates. :thumb:

^good points--especially the last line. Also consider nerves and circumstance outside of the race--TSS? need recovery? nervous? poor concentration/tactics? etc...

failing in a race is a great motivator though, isn't it? I mean, it sucks, but the next few races become personal milestones.

good luck!

I set a grid line at the VO2Max/AWC border and look at any segments above it that are > 45 seconds. If it dips below for a corner or something, I'll consider that to be part of the same match. Then I count matches and see where I stand.

Then I look back and figure out where those were in the race. If these were accelerations following corners, following failed attacks, or covering gap at the back, then the match count can be helped with technique and positioning. If the problem is on hills or during attacks, then FTP, VO2Max, AWC, and body weight are all candidates for improvement (raise the grid line).

Thanks, that's the kind of info I was looking for. Anyone have any examples they want to share?

let's see your charts for the race you won and the race where you got dropped.

I have no experience with power, is it really possible just to have a bad day?

well cat 3 is another level from cat 4. That would be a starting point.
Get used to the differences and see how you go.

Oh, like I said, apart from the obvious. I know I got dropped because I just am not used to that level of racing. That said, the whole idea of using a power meter during the race is to be able to analyze the data and find my limiters so that I can focus my training. I have ideas of what to look for and a pretty good idea of why I got dropped I'm just interested in hearing how others have used it. Examples, etc. It's always fun to hear other people's experiences... that's the nice thing about the community that we have here on RBR.

Bad day? Well I suppose but I felt pretty good, my power was more or less in line with what I've been doing lately. I've felt like I've been on the declining edge of a peak and I'll bet if I had done this race a few weeks ago I would have been able to close that 50m and hang on at least another lap, and probably make the time cut.

I'm taking some time off to recover, build back some and do some crits again in a few weeks.

Good luck man!

Did you figure out how you ended up burning that last match?

I know people around here don't believe in HR when you have a power meter but its also worthwhile to see if you were redlined regardless of your power output. Its too simplistic to say "I just wasn't fast enough". There could have been confounding factors such as temperature, hydration, fuel, illness, etc. I've had races where my NP was well "within range" of an easy ride but my HR was through the roof.

Secondly, I'll add to WR's use of the AWC and say I draw a line at FTP also and look for long periods of time at or near FTP *BEFORE* a VO2 effort. For me, anyway, I would be "pre-blown up" and then try and jump which would elicit spectacular levels of blowing up.

Oh, like I said, apart from the obvious. I know I got dropped because I just am not used to that level of racing. That said, the whole idea of using a power meter during the race is to be able to analyze the data and find my limiters so that I can focus my training. I have ideas of what to look for and a pretty good idea of why I got dropped I'm just interested in hearing how others have used it. Examples, etc. It's always fun to hear other people's experiences... that's the nice thing about the community that we have here on RBR.

Bad day? Well I suppose but I felt pretty good, my power was more or less in line with what I've been doing lately. I've felt like I've been on the declining edge of a peak and I'll bet if I had done this race a few weeks ago I would have been able to close that 50m and hang on at least another lap, and probably make the time cut.

I'm taking some time off to recover, build back some and do some crits again in a few weeks.


The only problem with what you're trying to do is...a power meter doesn't measure "descending ability" ;)

so, I've got to ask -- umd, is this the first time you've been dropped in a race?

so, I've got to ask -- umd, is this the first time you've been dropped in a race?

Probably the first time with a power meter on board...

so, I've got to ask -- umd, is this the first time you've been dropped in a race?

No. The last time I was dropped in a race was at the Cat 4 RR championship race in bakersfield last May. I couldn't hang on to the lead group at Pine Flat this year but I got 15th so I don't think that was so much "dropped"...


Probably the first time with a power meter on board...

yes.

What was your best 1', 5' and 20' average during the race?

And how did that compare to previous races?

This race: 57 miles, 5,100 ft ascent, 2:35 total time, 210 AP/258 NP
1' was 469, at the climb on the first lap
5' was 319 (NP was 356)
20' was 244 (NP was 303)
60' was 224 (NP was 285)

Southern Nevada: 57 miles, 5,000 ft ascent, 2:35 total time, 182 AP/245 NP
1' was 455 for the race winning "kilo attack"
5' was 323 (NP was 335)
20' was 234 (NP was 294)
60' was 190 (NP was 257)

This race: 57 miles, 5,100 ft ascent, 2:35 total time, 210 AP/258 NP
1' was 469, at the climb on the first lap
5' was 319 (NP was 356)
20' was 244 (NP was 303)
60' was 224 (NP was 285)

Southern Nevada: 57 miles, 5,000 ft ascent, 2:35 total time, 182 AP/245 NP
1' was 455 for the race winning "kilo attack"
5' was 323 (NP was 335)
20' was 234 (NP was 294)
60' was 190 (NP was 257)

That little snapshot makes it look like there wasn't enough FTP available. That could be a combination of fitness, and tactics (since your position generally looks fine).

That little snapshot makes it look like there wasn't enough FTP available. That could be a combination of fitness, and tactics (since your position generally looks fine).

Do you mean not high enough, or not able to utilize it fully? I have felt a bit off lately, like it's been harder to make power... I kind of ran myself into the ground racing every weekend, so I'm taking a much needed rest. I didn't ride at all yesterday or today. I think the bottom line is just that a lot of hard efforts continually during the race took their toll. That 1' effort was on the first lap at the start of the climb, and was a higher effort than I did in Nevada, and then I had to continue climbing for over a minute more. The whole climb took 2'15" at an AP of 380. It definitely wore on me. And then it was always hard at the bottom too, I had to do 500W for 20", got a bit of a break and then 20" more at 500W. It was basically like that on every lap

Do you mean not high enough, or not able to utilize it fully? I have felt a bit off lately, like it's been harder to make power... I kind of ran myself into the ground racing every weekend, so I'm taking a much needed rest. I didn't ride at all yesterday or today. I think the bottom line is just that a lot of hard efforts continually during the race took their toll. That 1' effort was on the first lap at the start of the climb, and was a higher effort than I did in Nevada, and then I had to continue climbing for over a minute more. The whole climb took 2'15" at an AP of 380. It definitely wore on me. And then it was always hard at the bottom too, I had to do 500W for 20", got a bit of a break and then 20" more at 500W. It was basically like that on every lap

without doing any chart and graph analysis, it sounds to me like you just simply burnt too many anaerobic matches and your book was empty. this could be the result of errors you made or the result of physiological reasons. hard to say.

for a non graph based race analysis, think about:
-your positioning when you were put under pressure, were you in the pack on a wheel protected from the wind (i.e. wind coming from the right, were you on the left? etc.),

-where were you at the start of this 2'15" climb? did you hit it with as much momentum as the folks in front of you or were you slowed down and had to "jump" to get back on.

-if you were dangling on the up portions of the course, did you have to hammer the downhill portions and thus expend greater energy to keep up than others who were recovering while you were working and then ready to go when the course demanded it?

-descending, same thing as above, did you have to work at it to keep up with those who were recovering while still going fast (this is a killer)

-gearing, did you choose your gear ratios correctly in the race or did you find yourself out of rhythm or in an odd gear that you couldnt shift out of?

All these things add up and whittle away at your legs until they just wont do what you want them to anymore.

Here's my opinion of that section of the course. Different category, but I did it in the 3's last year and it was pretty much the same deal.

What makes that section of the course so difficult was that you had a hard 1:30 effort to the KOM, 30 seconds of false flat, 30 seconds of descending, then another 2-3 minutes of hammering HARD at 30+ mph to the finish line with a stiff tailwind. It was basically:
1:30 @450-500 watts
0:30 @ 300 watts
0:30 @0 watts
2-3:00 @ 320-350 watts

FWIW, umd and I are about the same size. (~145lbs)

In other words, you were cross eyed going over the top of the climb, barely recovering, then suffering across a long flat tailwind section.

Do you mean not high enough, or not able to utilize it fully? I have felt a bit off lately, like it's been harder to make power... I kind of ran myself into the ground racing every weekend, so I'm taking a much needed rest. I didn't ride at all yesterday or today. I think the bottom line is just that a lot of hard efforts continually during the race took their toll. That 1' effort was on the first lap at the start of the climb, and was a higher effort than I did in Nevada, and then I had to continue climbing for over a minute more. The whole climb took 2'15" at an AP of 380. It definitely wore on me. And then it was always hard at the bottom too, I had to do 500W for 20", got a bit of a break and then 20" more at 500W. It was basically like that on every lap

What I meant is that if you either:
a) Had a higher FTP or
b) Didn't need as much FTP

... you'd be able to hang on and be active. So, look hard at your race tactics and make sure you don't have a limiter there. Were you drafting optimally? Were you in a lower-surge position in the Pack? Were you getting gapped? Pulling?

Aside from that, you might need to train your FTP. Maybe your TSB was too low, and that effectively lowered your FTP. So, recovery might give you the boost you need for next time. You might need to reflect on your training. You don't need a 180 CTL to be competitive in Cat 3, but you do need a lot of power. What would it take to get a 5% boost in FTP and 5' power?

With a higher FTP, today's matches are tomorrow's "jumps."

The only way to claw your way out of a hole is to eat and rest repeatedly until you are tired. =)

What are good ways to boost FTP? Riding shorter intervals above FTP? Or longer rides at FTP?

What are good ways to boost FTP? Riding shorter intervals above FTP? Or longer rides at FTP?

Yeah, there are books on the subject :)

Start with some aerobic base building so the intervals coming in a couple months can be harder. Then do some SST to push FTP up, then go to shorter intervals and start pulling it up. Find what works with your training schedule and power profile.

I certainly think you can get bigger FTP gains from appropriate 90 minute rides than 5 hour rides. Recovery is just as important as stress, and long miles require more recovery to actually get any stronger. You need some long rides if you have long races, but you really only need one long ride/week to make it work.

Yeah, there are books on the subject :)

Start with some aerobic base building so the intervals coming in a couple months can be harder. Then do some SST to push FTP up, then go to shorter intervals and start pulling it up. Find what works with your training schedule and power profile.

I certainly think you can get bigger FTP gains from appropriate 90 minute rides than 5 hour rides. Recovery is just as important as stress, and long miles require more recovery to actually get any stronger. You need some long rides if you have long races, but you really only need one long ride/week to make it work.

:thumb:

That's actually about spot on with what I'm doing. Last week was an 8 hour week for example. 1 long ride, 1 medium ride and the rest was a mixture of recovery days and harder [short'ish] interval days. I even tried some Tabatas for the first time. fwiw, long for me is 3 hrs.

I've been reading a lot about 2x20 to increase FTP as well. But it makes most sense that "it just depends."

Sounds like you were just more tired going into this race. I did the Elkhorn stage race as a cat4 last year (won the GC) then 2 weeks later went to do the Cascade Classic as a Cat 3. I fell apart at Cascade ( and I felt like I could hang with better part of the field). I barely took anytime off as I wanted to race all the local stuff as a Cat 3 in those couple weeks, needless to say I shouldn't have. I hate taking time off the bike for recovery, but as you get into these tougher, more competitive races it seems to be necessary.

For your size/weight you FTP and 5min power very good for racing in the 3s.

i'm learning a lot just by reading this thread. cool.

-your positioning when you were put under pressure, were you in the pack on a wheel protected from the wind (i.e. wind coming from the right, were you on the left? etc.),

Most of the time when I was put under pressure was on the climb or sprinting out of the bottom corner or the long flat stretch to the start/finish. We were often pretty strung out there. On the two preceeding laps before I was dropped I was gapped and had to chase back on.


-where were you at the start of this 2'15" climb? did you hit it with as much momentum as the folks in front of you or were you slowed down and had to "jump" to get back on.

It's kind of screwey... it goes down a little descet, through a chicane that you can pretty much streaight-line (but it narrows the field), then a sharp right/left chicane that you have to turn for but can keep a lot of momentum. For the first few laps I was able to keep good momentum but the last two times (including the one where I was popped) I got held up by the guy in front of me slowing down and had to jump harder to keep up with the rest of the field.


-if you were dangling on the up portions of the course, did you have to hammer the downhill portions and thus expend greater energy to keep up than others who were recovering while you were working and then ready to go when the course demanded it?

I was able to get up the climbs with the field without "dangling", although it hurt more and more each time through. For all but the last lap up I was able to even gain position at times. The last time up I stayed with the others I was with but we were all stretched a little thin.


-descending, same thing as above, did you have to work at it to keep up with those who were recovering while still going fast (this is a killer)

I did not pedal the descents. Any gaps on the descent was poor descending technique.


-gearing, did you choose your gear ratios correctly in the race or did you find yourself out of rhythm or in an odd gear that you couldnt shift out of?

I never felt like I didn't have an adequate gear. I'd have to look at my data again (I don't have it with me at the moment) but I'm pretty sure I remember I was at least 85rpm up the climbs, at least while I was still with the pack.


Here's my opinion of that section of the course. Different category, but I did it in the 3's last year and it was pretty much the same deal.

What makes that section of the course so difficult was that you had a hard 1:30 effort to the KOM, 30 seconds of false flat, 30 seconds of descending, then another 2-3 minutes of hammering HARD at 30+ mph to the finish line with a stiff tailwind. It was basically:
1:30 @450-500 watts
0:30 @ 300 watts
0:30 @0 watts
2-3:00 @ 320-350 watts

FWIW, umd and I are about the same size. (~145lbs)

In other words, you were cross eyed going over the top of the climb, barely recovering, then suffering across a long flat tailwind section.

Sounds about right. It was always super-strung-out on the long flat section.


Aside from that, you might need to train your FTP. Maybe your TSB was too low, and that effectively lowered your FTP. So, recovery might give you the boost you need for next time. You might need to reflect on your training. You don't need a 180 CTL to be competitive in Cat 3, but you do need a lot of power. What would it take to get a 5% boost in FTP and 5' power?

My CTL was about 130 and my TSB was around +10 on Thursday. I'd have to check and see what it was Saturday morning.

What are CTL, TSB, and ATL?

I am guessing they are not the control key, technical service bulletin, or Atlanta.

chronic training load, training stress balance, and acute training load.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-the-performance-management-chart.aspx

What are CTL, TSB, and ATL?

I think this must be a trick question. Nobody said anything about ATL so you must already know :rolleyes:


chronic training load, training stress balance, and aerobic training load.

Acute

I think this must be a trick question. Nobody said anything about ATL so you must already know :rolleyes:



Acute

Waterrockets mentioned it earlier.

Acute

Dang it. You got to it before I changed it.

Dang it. You got to it before I changed it.

:p

Most of the time when I was put under pressure was on the climb or sprinting out of the bottom corner or the long flat stretch to the start/finish. We were often pretty strung out there. On the two preceeding laps before I was dropped I was gapped and had to chase back on.

So, we have a position and cornering technique problem here. Too far back, causing you to be too far from the leaders out of the corner or over the climb, then you're losing distance on the corner or just after it.

Given your power numbers and your TSB, I'm not buying any fitness limitations here.


I got held up by the guy in front of me slowing down and had to jump harder to keep up with the rest of the field.

Limiter: position. You should be far enough up that the guy in front of you isn't dying.


I was able to get up the climbs with the field without "dangling", although it hurt more and more each time through. For all but the last lap up I was able to even gain position at times. The last time up I stayed with the others I was with but we were all stretched a little thin.

Another demonstration that fitness isn't the problem.


Sounds about right. It was always super-strung-out on the long flat section.

Strung out is fine for a non-technical course, but if it's twisty and bumpy, you have got to stay up front unless you're confident that the accelerations aren't going to hurt you. There are tailgunning techniques to mitigate this, but it doesn't sound like you're there yet. I can shoot the poop with friends at the back of a 28mph crit and move up when I want, but I've got a lot of experience at managing the back of the accordion w/out slowing much.


My CTL was about 130 and my TSB was around +10 on Thursday. I'd have to check and see what it was Saturday morning.

Yeah, your bag of excuses is missing some items ;)

It looks like more experience is the answer. Get position. Learn to maintain position. CDR has many posts about this stuff, no need to re-write these great works. Corner efficiently, downshift before you enter. Anticipate surges and always nurture the speed you're carrying.

This is good though. Cat 3 is where you learn to race really well with Cat 4 power, while you're building up for Cat 2 power.

This should help

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-a-match.aspx

Interesting read.

I think I might have found a few very subtle clues as to why I blew up on 3/15 in the Cat5's in Central Park. Considering that my LT was 200w when I started training in Jan, and is probably around 225w now... I think it might be... that 5 MINUTES at 269w on the first lap with those little 385w for 1 minute and 301w for 2 minutes parts thrown in on lap 2. Oh, that and the 250w for 10m part that ends with the 385w 1 minute climb up Harlem Hill ending basically right at the point where I popped.

No wonder. I didn't find matches, I found a house fire.


First season racing (only two races so far) and first season really training. So we'll see how many watts come later.



Entire workout (227 watts):
Duration: 50:39 (1:01:02)
Work: 687 kJ
TSS: 130.1 (intensity factor 1.245)
Norm Power: 251

Peak 20s (498 watts):
Heart Rate: 178 186 181 bpm

Peak 30s (452 watts):
Heart Rate: 178 189 183 bpm

Peak 1min (385 watts):
Heart Rate: 173 190 183 bpm

Peak 2min (301 watts):
Heart Rate: 173 191 184 bpm

Peak 5min (269 watts):
Heart Rate: 166 189 178 bpm

Peak 10min (250 watts):
Heart Rate: 173 192 182 bpm

Peak 20min (239 watts):
Heart Rate: 166 192 181 bpm

Peak 30min (234 watts):
Heart Rate: 166 192 178 bpm

Strung out is fine for a non-technical course, but if it's twisty and bumpy, you have got to stay up front unless you're confident that the accelerations aren't going to hurt you. There are tailgunning techniques to mitigate this, but it doesn't sound like you're there yet. I can shoot the poop with friends at the back of a 28mph crit and move up when I want, but I've got a lot of experience at managing the back of the accordion w/out slowing much.

It wasn't so much an accordian as it was just trying to close the gaps from the descent. I think it all really comes down to that. On the third lap it was a "hot spot sprint" for sprint jersey points and time bonuses and so I was doing 29-30mph down the straight trying to catch on without any shelter.


It looks like more experience is the answer. Get position. Learn to maintain position. CDR has many posts about this stuff, no need to re-write these great works. Corner efficiently, downshift before you enter. Anticipate surges and always nurture the speed you're carrying.

Yep, that's about it.

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/03/matchfinder.html

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/03/matchfinder.html

That's pretty cool. Easy to do too. Thanks.

One thing though: he was talking about determining match burns during a race, like you could figure it out on the bike. I'm just mis-reading, I suppose.

EDIT: here are some crits, pretty cool. Fewer and fainter matches at ToNB allowed me to burn a couple books of matches at the end.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6159/posto.png

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7520/postk.png

Good stuff

http://www.photoscene.com/kimandsteve/images/6049.png

One thing though: he was talking about determining match burns during a race, like you could figure it out on the bike. I'm just mis-reading, I suppose.

No, I was looking for examples of post-race power file analysis.

No, I was looking for examples of post-race power file analysis.

No, not you, the article author (Alex Simmons) ;)

No, not you, the article author (Alex Simmons) ;)

I read it as post-race analysis, not in-race. He presented it as an alternative analysis method from the fast find in WKO.

Edit: no comment on my pretty chart? I'll do some for some other races later :p

I read it as post-race analysis, not in-race. He presented it as an alternative analysis method from the fast find in WKO.

Edit: no comment on my pretty chart? I'll do some for some other races later :p

Yeah, it's not a big deal, but he said "It’s about a method to quickly identify when, during a race, you “burnt a match”."

Ambiguous.

From your chart, you clearly burned too many matches too brightly until you were dropped. These W^4 charts do make it crystal clear.

Yeah, it's not a big deal, but he said "It’s about a method to quickly identify when, during a race, you “burnt a match”."

Ah, I see. I read that as when during the race the matches were burned, not identifying burning the match while in the race.


From your chart, you clearly burned too many matches too brightly until you were dropped. These W^4 charts do make it crystal clear.

Very clear

Umd, I'm not sure if this is your problem as well, but I find it really difficult to get the 'perfect' draft spot when there's a single placeline going on. I have to make sure that I have it or I get into trouble.

I've been working on that...

Ok, here's a "got dropped" example. It looks much tougher than the crits above. This was a position problem, causing me to bridge three groups, burn a long match with a bright spot, followed by a really bright match, with very little recovery. Then I popped. I still had a lot left in the tank, but I overcooked it and dropped myself trying to make up for the bad position. (this is from Belterra Saturday)

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3703/postn.png