Tandem Cycling - santana team al 2004

My tandem ,when it is loaded with 2 paniers( 45 lbs) and one front handlebar bag 9 7 lbs) , is not easily riden standing up ,because it shimmies quite a bit!!, I have an ouzo pro carbon fork ( the guy who sold it to me tells me to change to a chromoly ) ,I have changed my rear rack(axiom) and it is holding on the rear seatpost (seems very solid) .If I cant resolve this i'm selling it .it rides ok when its not loaded .I have riden a friends cannodale with the same kind of panniers ,and it rides fine .Anybody got an answer ?

Andre

You got gears? Use 'em . . . no need to stand.

I hope somebody has a better answer !!!,
thanks anyway
Andre

I won't claim expert or having the correct answer.

If I read your post as written, you are placing 97 pounds over the front axle. If you do some searching of some recent posts, there is a discussion about fork specifications. The discussion is focused on various brands and the amount and effect of trail and rake.

As I stated earlier, I'm not saying I have the right answer, but possibly the advice already given of installing a different fork is not far fetched. Did the C'Dale have a composite fork installed or the aluminum fork? If possible, maybe you should see if you can borrow the C'Dale fork and try it in your bike.

Without having a spec sheet in front of me, and more important not knowing which Cannondale model you are comparing, it could possibly be the C'Dale is running 26" wheels or stiffer wheels. You have a Team Al, so possibly the butting and frame design is more performance based than touring based and with the load you plan to carry maybe the frame is not capable.

Try the easy things first, swap wheels, then forks. The other easy swap reflects on Zonas mention of using the gears and remaining seated, maybe it would be an advantage to get a smaller front chainring and wide ratio cassete.

Hope it helped a little.

PK

My closest experience would be with our singles, which we learned (25 years ago) were less stable with loaded handlebar bags, and more stable with loaded front panniers attached to low-riders. This lowers the centre of gravity, whereas the bar bag raises it. We still used the bar bags, but kept them lightly loaded. I don't yet know whether we'll put a bar bag on the tandem for touring, but I have the lowrider racks mounted. I will need something to hold a map, as my stoker/wife doesn't want the role of reading maps [she rides with uncorrected vision, but reads maps with either reading glasses or bifocals; so far I'm still in the uncorrected vision group for both reading and riding, and hope to stay that way for a few more years].

Standing is an experience in itself, which we're still practicing. But keeping the bike weight low can only help.



My tandem ,when it is loaded with 2 paniers( 45 lbs) and one front handlebar bag 9 7 lbs) , is not easily riden standing up ,because it shimmies quite a bit!!, I have an ouzo pro carbon fork ( the guy who sold it to me tells me to change to a chromoly ) ,I have changed my rear rack(axiom) and it is holding on the rear seatpost (seems very solid) .If I cant resolve this i'm selling it .it rides ok when its not loaded .I have riden a friends cannodale with the same kind of panniers ,and it rides fine .Anybody got an answer ?

Andre

I would call Santana and talk to Bill...My guess is you got to move the weight as low as possible and get a fork with optimum rake for the task. I beleive the Ouzo Pro is to quick for how you are using the bike. Good luck and let us know what Bill says or how you solve the challenge.

Bill J.

...because it shimmies quite a bit!!

Can you offer up a more detailed description of the 'shimmy' that you're experiencing? Is it coming from the front-end, the mid-frame or is it a tailwag feeling? Also, how would you describe your out-of-the-saddle riding style? Does the shimmy follow the flow and lag your out-of-the-saddle riding style or is it just a general feeling of instability at the handlebars? Finally, which wheels are you using and what's your total team weight?




you are placing 97 pounds over the front axle.

Pretty sure he meant 7lbs - 9lbs and the hyphen got lost in the translation.




I beleive the Ouzo Pro is to quick for how you are using the bike.

The Reynolds Ouzo Pro Tandem fork uses the exact same design spec as Santana's chromoly forks (395mm crown height & 55mm rake w/1.25" steerer) so the steering characteristics are the same. The Ouzo Pro, particularly the older ones, are nearly as rigid as a chromoly fork but about 1.5 lbs lighter so unless it was a high-speed shimmy I don't think the fork's geometry or symmetry is the source of any instability.



I have my suspicions but will await further details....

When I ride it alone with everything on it at low speed ,its almost impossible to ride ,,the handlebar wiggle like crazy, in a couple of weeks ,i will try taking of the front handlebar bag (7lbs) off, and see,also the top of the rear Axiom rack is about 4 in above the tire ,maybe its to high?

thanks
andré

"".....When I ride it alone...""

' Can't do that and draw any kind of meaningful conclusions. It is a Tandem and needs the weight of two people on it before you can evaluate the handling with extra weight hung on one end or the other.

Bill J

Another possible solution: run a wider front tire which could mitigate wobble.

When I ride it alone with everything on it at low speed ,its almost impossible to ride

Is this while standing as it was before, or even when sitting down?


maybe its to high?

Without any answers to the questions in my first reply on 03-23-09 @ 12:04 PM, or more detailed information regard your latest adventure I've still got nothing meaningful to go on here.

Gotta give a little to get a little....

OK ,this is a little hard to explain in english( I,m from Québec as ou probably noticed).
1- sweet 16 wheels.
2-total weight : 120 +165+8 +45 : 338LBS.
3- the wiggle( the handlebars move fast left to right) comes from the front.
4- this happens all the time when the bike is loaded ,but to different degrees .None of this happened wih the khs or the cannondale.
4a- the worst is like I mentionned before when I ride slowlly the loaded tandem alone just to park it somewhere will my wife goes inthe hotel ! I understand that its not normal to ride alone ,BUT this was possible with other tandems.
5- I will get back to you when I get home ,and try to change the centre of gravity on the back panniers and remove the front handlebar bag.
6 - I was thinking of your suggestion to purchase a trailer. What are the + and - of this kind of installation other than extra weight?

thanks again
andré

I will get back to you when I get home ,and try to change the centre of gravity on the back panniers and remove the front handlebar bag.

Based on the updated information, I'm inclined to suspect:

(a) the handlebar bag: they're OK for a camera or other lightweight gear but tend to create the very type of handling issues on tandems you're describing in your most recent post, particularly when used in conjunction with just rear panniers.

(b) your rear rack and pannier installation: if the rack doesn't use a four-point installation that would be something to look at as three-point mounts aren't well suited for heavier loads. If the rack isn't rock solid with your loaded panniers attached your tandem will definitely have problems handling climbing out of the saddle (ref. your original post).

There's just nothing else about your Santana that jumps out as a source for the instability. While the Sweet 16's aren't ideal wheels for touring, there are teams that weigh upwards of 360 - 380 lbs who use them for non-touring that don't experience stability issues so that just doesn't jump out at me. If you had a bad headset the indexing would be present all the time. The fork, as previously mentioned, is a pretty beefy piece of kit and isn't ideal for touring since it precludes the use of a low-rider front rack and front pannier.

So, it will be interested to hear how your Santana handles with the handlebar bag empty or removed. A couple lbs of gear, e.g., camera or lightweight jacket, wallet are about it.


I was thinking of your suggestion to purchase a trailer. What are the + and - of this kind of installation other than extra weight?

Folks who like trailers love their trailers and folks who don't like trailers love their panniers. While some folks talk as though trailers didn't exist until the Burley and BOB were invented, they've been around for a long time and work well. Yes, you must pull the added weight up hills but you don't have to relearn riding your tandem every time you switch configuration from loaded touring to unloaded, which is the norm for all bikes and tandems that are used for loaded touring.

http://www.thetandemlink.com/pictures/LisetteBuchaillet.jpg

Photo courtesy of Bicycle Quarterly (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/vbqindex.html).

+1 on the handlebar bag 9 lbs of weight on the handlebars will affect your handling.

Try your same setup with no handlebar bag and see if there's a difference.

TG, Good proof that trailers have been around awhile. That bike is hard to make out real detail, but isn't that a reversed image? It looks like the RD is facing us while the sync chain is away from us.

Andre, a trailer really doesn't affect the handling, but does weigh more as TG stated. It also needs different sized tires/tubes in case of a flat, and requires you to really keep the width in mind while riding in tight spots or while taking corners. I really like using mine (for the youngest child), but would not use it if not for him being a bit young for riding with the rest of us. If you can work on eliminating the shimmy by moving the heavy items out of your handlebar bag, I think you would be the most happy. Do your rear panniers just not hold what you need them to? How about securing a bag above the rear rack?
Let us know how the weight elimination goes on your next test ride.

TG, ...That bike is hard to make out real detail, but isn't that a reversed image? It looks like the RD is facing us while the sync chain is away from us.


http://www.thetandemlink.com/pictures/LisetteBuchaillet.jpg

Photo courtesy of Bicycle Quarterly (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/vbqindex.html).

Or, the timing chain is on the right side with the drive cranks. I have a '79 Schwinn Twinn Sport (1010 carbon heavy tubing) which was built this way. But even Paramount Tandem's were originally configured this way. I've converted my Twinn Sport to a left side timing chain.

Here is a Catalog page from 1969.
http://www.geocities.com/sldbconsumer19/1969/69ccpg04.jpg

Schwinn (and I imagine other builders) used a triple crankset at the stokers position. The inside granny gear ran the timing chain to the captain's cranks.

T...but isn't that a reversed image? It looks like the RD is facing us while the sync chain is away from us.

No, it appears to be oriented correctly.

As pastorbobnlnh notes, the tandem in the photo uses a right-side drive, which was quite common up and until the early 70s, and most likely has some type of an auxialliary hub brake on the left side with the rear derailleur on the right.

If the rear derailleur had been on the left side the entire mechanism and chain would have been illuminated quite nicely by the sun instead of being hidden in the shadows.