Fifty Plus (50+) - Statin drugs & cycling

am taking a generic statin drug (10mg, for cholesterol). Taking it for about a month. I've been feeling kind of lathargic over the last week and during my road ride today. I felt lousy. Does anyone else take statins? Do you feel any side affects? If so, what did you do about it? Please help.

HI,
A few people who take statins over react to the medication and stop producing cq10 in the liver, this leads to other problems to many to list.
Some countries require a black label(Canada) warning on statins, most Dr's dont know about the dangers cause they only believe what the drug companies tell them.
I was having alot of problems taking statins I couldn't climb stairs had problems getting off the couch and was lossing muscle mass rather quickly this occured about 6 mos into the meds.
Bike ridders burn a lot of those liquid fats in your blood things like lipids . Take at least 50 mg of cq10 to help replace your depleted cq10.
I use niacin vit C/ and lysine and diet to control my cholestrol/hdl and it has worked well, just ridding the bike has helped even more. Processed foods have excess bad omega's this can have negative effect on your lipids things like fresh fruit,fiber whole grains are good.
Doug
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/nswltrmain.html

You might ask your doctor to try a different statin. Not all of them will affect you the same. The one I am on now doesn't bother me. But I was on another, that after a couple weeks on it, a mtn.bike hill which I used to always climb, all of a sudden was a real struggle (this was some 10 years ago). I quit taking that statin, and after a couple of weeks off of it, was riding up that hill once more. Might have to try a couple before you find one that works for you. Consult your doctor.

I had a friend who was started on a statin. Had the same reaction you seem to be having. His DR changed his meds and that helped.

HI
read this,((
In fact, if you're taking any statin and experience the above symptoms of rhabdomyolysis -- particularly muscle pain and tenderness -call your DR- ))
http://www.cvshealthresources.com/topic/baycol


actual research into side effects,((According to experts, muscle pain and other side effects occur in up to 30 percent of statin patients))

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/24/AR2007082401714.html

I was on Simvastatin, and almost lost all strength in my hands and feet. I would even drop a ketchup bottle moving it from the fridge to the table. Just couldn't hang on. Symptoms were basically muscle weakness and pain while exercising those muscles. At first, I thought it was joint pain, as I do have arthritis.

I also ran across two other people, friends, who were having the same problem. One gave up golf, because he couldn't hold on to the club handle.

Guess what - they were both taking the same drug!

Since quitting, against doctor advice, all three of us have gotten better. Two have completely recovered, but, I have never gotten the strength or flexibility back in my hands, or feet. Better, just not like they were (I used to have really strong hands.)

It should be noted, that improvement was noticeable within days of cessation of that foul drug......by al three of us. I was amazed at how much better I felt within a couple days, and gradual improvement continued for a long time. I just never got over it completely. My arthritis is now back where it was prior to the simvastatin.

The doctors (3 different ones) still don't believe the statin was the cause ----- butttttt, three people I know, and all got better since stopping??????????

I believe US!

With good reason - I WILL NOT TAKE ANOTHER STATIN DRUG!!!!!!

I'm off all statins after 15 years of side effects including 5 heart attacks and two cancers! Check out this yahoo group called Stopped_Our_Statins (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Stopped_Our_Statins/)
I can find too much evidence that statin reducing drugs are a mis-guided treatment.
See also my blog called Credible Evidence at www.wmodavis.com (http://www.wmodavis.com). Lots of evidence based on my research.

I have a high cholesterol count and as such have taken symvastain for 10 years. Last year and the count rose so double the dose of statin and it does take more effort to motivate myself- but not much. What is bothering me is a certain amount of muscular pain that takes a while to work off in the mornings.

But symvastatin or another bypass- I have a choice.

I took 10 mg of Pravachol (a weaker statin) for about 4 years. Zero side effects. Stopped when I discovered it was pretty much ineffective for primary intervention. It's a big con unless maybe you have extremely high cholesterol values.

The West Scotland trial cohort either smoked or had symptoms of cardiovascular issues before the trail began. It was more of a secondary intervention trial. The Framingham study results which were suppressed until a doctor dug them up recently showed that physical activity was had an order of magnitude better results than statins. There's no money to be made through exercise, so no one is that interested in those results.

My wife developed leg pain with hers. She stopped before I did.

By the time I reached the conclusion to stop, my doctor had reached the same conclusions on the research.

Al

Stepfam - the choice is not between taking a statin cholesterol reducing drug and another bypass. I had my bypass and 4 other MI's while on statins and my cholesterol was down where the cardiologists were really happy. High cholesterol does not cause heart attacks. If it did why do roughly half of the heart attacks occur in people with low cholesterol? It is not a cause!

Alcanoe - Your wife was wise, in fact there is NO clinical evidence that women have any benefit from taking statin drugs. See this link (http://pi-bill-articles.blogspot.com/2008/02/cholesterol-lowering-statin-drugs-for.html). And some clinical trials show those with highest cholesterol live longer.

Stepfam - the choice is not between taking a statin cholesterol reducing drug and another bypass. I had my bypass and 4 other MI's while on statins and my cholesterol was down where the cardiologists were really happy. High cholesterol does not cause heart attacks. If it did why do roughly half of the heart attacks occur in people with low cholesterol? It is not a cause!

Cholesterol blocks arteries. Arteries that are 90% blocked cause problems. And cholesterol is not the only cause of Heart attacks but is just one of the causes.

And just a warning to everyone. I had been riding for 9 years before the bypass. I was probably at my fittest in 20 years and My diet was pretty good. Low cholesterol food- plenty of the "Correct" type of food and plenty of exercise. My cholesterol count when in hospital was around normal. Didn't help me much though.

And two years later my riding partner died of a Heart attack on a ride. Now he was fit and had no history of any heart problems. The post mortem showed Cholesterol build up internally within the heart. Then again- I can tell you of two other riders of a "mature" age that had no previous heart problems that died on bike rides. One of whom did have a heart defect that had gone undetected but the other had cholesterol build up which was the cause of his heart attack.

So anything I can do to stop Choilesterol build up and I am going to take it. Exercise- correct food or pills.

Alcanoe - Your wife was wise, in fact there is NO clinical evidence that women have any benefit from taking statin drugs. See this link (http://pi-bill-articles.blogspot.com/2008/02/cholesterol-lowering-statin-drugs-for.html). And some clinical trials show those with highest cholesterol live longer.

Not only that, but there is a lot of evidence that as you get older, lower cholesterol is just not beneficial. Things came to a head for me when my doctor thought I should double my dose to drive my LDL very low. I said I'd think about it, but I had to to research it. He gave me a copy of an article out of a medical journal explaining the rational for very low LDL

Six months later when I visited him again, I had concluded, that medical journals have no integrity. They are ruled by the dug manufactures. I had also developed a number of counter articles to low LDL and had also descovered that I'd been scammed by the West Scotland and Framingham (the mother of all statin studies) studies. So I wrote him a two page rational of why I had quit statins.

In the ensuing 6-months, he had reached the same conclusions.

Based on my studying of two exercise physiology books (mentioned in the heart rate thread), I've concluded that the real issue is insulin resistance and the subsequent fat accumulation due to lack of adequate physical activity and the over consuming of calories for the amount expended.

That's dramatically exemplified in a chart in Campbell's China Study. The rural Chinese suffer effectively no cardiovascular and cancer problems compared to Americans while consume over 500 calories more than Americans for the same normalized body weight (143 lbs). The Chinese are thin, we are obese. The reason is that their higher calorie consumption is equivalent to jogging 8 to 10 miles every day.

Bottom line, Lack of vigorous physical activity is unhealthy particularly concerning diabetes, cardiovascular issues and many cancers. Campbell missed that point and concludes that the better health of the rural Chinese is do solely to almost no animal protein consumption. His solution is pure veganism.

Al

[QUOTE His solution is pure veganism.

Al[/QUOTE]

Pure veganism, if that is what he is really doing, is not only unhealthy, it is downright dangerous. "Pure vegans" have to take multiple supplements of vitamins, usually with the needle,not just pills in order to make up for the many vitamins and minerals that their bodies lack. Don't do it.

Have we all forgotten the old adages "moderation in everything" and the simple " take in fewer calories than you burn in order to lose weight" and exercise 6 days a week.

It should also be noted here that "Statins" not only lower LDL, most of them also lower the HDL.

Atherosclorosis appears in many people who have had an imbalance between the LDL and HDL.

For the bulk of my adult life, I have had a low number when it comes to LDL, but have also had a corresponding low number as regards HDL.

Because of the low overall number, I mistakenly thought I had nothing to fear from Plaque build up in the arteries. I could not have been further from the truth.

There's only one brand that make the claim of reducing LDL while maintaining, or increasing, HDL. I have taken this drug to no avail.

Exercise is "supposed" to help raise the HDL in your system. It doesn't work that way for everyone. This is why you see some people who seem to be physically fit with major heart/Artery problems.

:(

[QUOTE His solution is pure veganism.

Al

Pure veganism, if that is what he is really doing, is not only unhealthy, it is downright dangerous. "Pure vegans" have to take multiple supplements of vitamins, usually with the needle,not just pills in order to make up for the many vitamins and minerals that their bodies lack. Don't do it.

Have we all forgotten the old adages "moderation in everything" and the simple " take in fewer calories than you burn in order to lose weight" and exercise 6 days a week.[/QUOTE]

Yes on the veganism. Exercising 6 days a week is on target. And too, since the understanding of nutrition is in it's infancy, who knows what you are missing with veganism. It's claimed that veganism is healthier and reduces cardio/cancer problems. I've never found any solid data. We are omnivores and you would think that meat is part of our natural food.

That said, we do consume way too much meat/dairy for good cardio and cancer health based on the existing science. My personal approach is to limit meat (including fish) consumption to less than about 3 oz/day. I eat no dairy as there's a strong association with prostate cancer (had it twice). My wife lost a lot of her allergies when she quit dairy.

We limit most of the red meat to grass fed as it's lower in Omega-6 and saturated fats not to mention antibiotics and growth hormones. Cows actually get sick on corn therefore the grass fed are healthier and don't need the antibiotics.

Chicken is not available grass fed. We eat the original chicken that was consumed here in the US decades ago. One small French company raises it. It's the last of the breeds that reach maturity in the normal chicken life span. All the others have been bred to reach maturity in half the time.

Is it healthier? Don't really know, but we had given up chicken decades ago when the meat got so full of fat that we couldn't stand the taste which also became very bland. These chickens are lean and taste so much better. They cost at least twice as much and the company has yet to turn a profit here in the US.

Al

HI,
A few people who take statins over react to the medication and stop producing cq10 in the liver, this leads to other problems to many to list.
Some countries require a black label(Canada) warning on statins, most Dr's dont know about the dangers cause they only believe what the drug companies tell them.
I was having alot of problems taking statins I couldn't climb stairs had problems getting off the couch and was lossing muscle mass rather quickly this occured about 6 mos into the meds.
Bike ridders burn a lot of those liquid fats in your blood things like lipids . Take at least 50 mg of cq10 to help replace your depleted cq10.
I use niacin vit C/ and lysine and diet to control my cholestrol/hdl and it has worked well, just ridding the bike has helped even more. Processed foods have excess bad omega's this can have negative effect on your lipids things like fresh fruit,fiber whole grains are good.
Doug
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/nswltrmain.html

I'm on niacin (told my doctor I didn't want statins), but haven't had my first checkup since going on it, so I don't know how well it's working yet. What made you combine vitamin C and lysine with it?

HI,
This regeme has prevented bypass surgery for some people, remember that bound LDL is harmless to the arteries, if you had a bypass don't take L-proline it seems a little too aggressive at removing Plaque and there's been problems with bypass surgery some plaque may help glue those transplanted arteries.
I take 2,000 L-lysine and 2,000 vit -c this can prevent arterial damage from daily stress and may improve blood flow to the small arteries in the heart I also take 500 mg of crystalin Niacin at bed time with fish oil. Avoid time release niacin it can and does cause liver damage. NO drug company will do trials on Vitamin therapy..

Below is a aggressive approach to reversing blocked arteries.

((Linus Pauling Therapy for the Reversal of Heart Disease

1. Vitamin C: to bowel tolerance - as much as you can take without diarrhea. For most people this will be in the range of five to ten grams (5,000-10,000 mg.) each day. Spread this amount into several equal doses 4 or more hours apart. Vitamin C salts, Linke in BalanCe, are more easily tolerated and less prone to cause diarrhea in high doses. Vitamin C prevents further cracking of the blood vessel wall.
2. L-Proline: 3 grams twice per day. Proline acts to release lipoprotein(a) from plaque formations and prevent further deposition of plaque in the arterial walls.
3. L-Lysine: 3 grams twice each day. Lysine acts to release lipoprotein(a) from plaque formations and prevent further deposition of of plaque in the arterial walls.
4. Co-enzyme Q10: 90-180 mg. twice per day. Co-enzyme Q10 strengthens the heart muscle.
5. L-Carnitine: 3 grams twice per day. L-Carnitine also strengthens the heart muscle and aids in metabolizing fat into energy.
6. Niacin: Decreases production of lipoprotein(a) in the liver. Inositol hexanicotinate is a form of niacin which gives less of a problem with flushing and therefore allows for larger therapeutic doses. Begin with 250 mg. at lunch, 500 mg. at dinner and 500 mg. at bedtime the first day; then increase gradually over a few days until you reach four grams per day, or the highest dose under four grams you can tolerate. Be sure to ask your doctor for liver enzyme level tests every two months or less to be sure your liver is able to handle the dose you are taking.
7. Vitamin E: 800-2400 IU per day. Vitamin E Inhibits proliferation of smooth muscle cells in the walls of arteries undergoing the atherosclerotic changes.))


Statins can increase heartfailure by reducing the production of co enzyme cq10 we normally make 300mg at around age 21 and it drops as we age. If you take statins you may stop making it all together the negative side of the drug hence neurological and cardiac function decline. Its so gradual many Dr's think its age related, he they have great deal on the electric wheel chairs if you can't walk any more.


remember DR's in the US Only know what the Drug companies tell them most data reviewed from clinical trials by the drug companies the FDA reviews the data provided and then it hit the streets, I believe that testing in this country is not done scientifically due to cost and data can be adjusted to appear safe most testing is only done by the drug companies DUH once a drug is approved there's considerable risk for many people it then takes 10-15 years of negative outcomes before they pull the drug.

I thought I would post this link per my previous comments on meat and also on Campbell's The China Study. The linked study is among many that have supported Campbell's conclusions about meat and cancer/cardio issues. The China Study is about the most extensive, rigorous and most thorough population study ever done and probably ever will be done. Unfortunately as in all nutrition studies, the physical activity component was ignored. You can't study nutrition independent of activity and get meaningful results except possibly for couch potatoes. That said, Campbell's data shows that if you keep your animal protein calories below 10% (5% is even better) of your total calories, you have a major reduction in risk of having cardiovascular and cancer issues.

Al

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/23/AR2009032301626.html?nav=hcmodule

Pure veganism, if that is what he is really doing, is not only unhealthy, it is downright dangerous. "Pure vegans" have to take multiple supplements of vitamins, usually with the needle,not just pills in order to make up for the many vitamins and minerals that their bodies lack. Don't do it.

DIsclaimer- I swore up and down that I wasn't going to respond to this but I just couldn't resist...)

This is simply wrong and reflects a prevalent attitude toward veganism that generally comes from being uneducated about what a vegan diet actually looks like. A vegan diet may need to include some oral supplementation with some of the micronutrients of concern (B12, D, and long-chain O3s), but these are no big deal, and not required in everyone.

It's claimed that veganism is healthier and reduces cardio/cancer problems. I've never found any solid data. We are omnivores and you would think that meat is part of our natural food.

Do a PubMed search on "vegan" and you will see numerous review articles that, while not totally conclusive (and little in medicine is), they are highly suggestive that vegan and vegetarian diets are healthier than omnivorous diets in reducing risk of cancer, diabetes, heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, certain eye diseases, etc., etc., etc. Your claim that "we are omnnivores" is poorly substantiated by the available paleontologic and anthropologic evidence.

Suggest a reading Wade's Before the Dawn

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Dawn-Recovering-History-Ancestors/dp/014303832X/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237918690&sr=1-34 (mhtml:{2771F4E4-C996-4024-A1EF-73378B7FB246**mid://00000225/!x-usc:http://www.amazon.com/Before-Dawn-Recovering-History-Ancestors/dp/014303832X/ref=sr_1_34?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237918690&sr=1-34)

One will discover that without meat, we could not support the brain power we developed. There is overwhelming evidence that we are Omnivores. However, there certainly are many efforts by the faith-based vegan community to cast humans as herbivores. It's just bunk.

Not that a vegan lifestyle can't be healthy. However, it needs to be followed with caution as one will run into nutrition deficiencies if not careful. I've run into folks who were protein deficient for two years before they figured it out. It's just that going vegan is not necessary or even desirable for most of us.

Al

I'm familiar with Wade and numerous others who've written on the subject. Note that I didn't say that humans aren't omnivores- just that your claim that we are is poorly substantiated, just as is the claim that we are completely herbivores, or carnivores, for that matter. In reality, we have the cognitive and emotional ability to choose what we want to eat, no? So, arguments about the length of the digestive tract, the fact that we have flat molars, etc., etc. are ultimately specious.

So now that we've settled that, the main thing on the table (as it were) is that regardless of whether or not one subscribes to a given philosophical school of eating or another, it is entirely possible to have a healthy diet regardless of whether one is a vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or whatever. The issue is balance. I've known a few heavy junk food-consuming vegans who were committed to a pretty unhealthy diet, just as I've known a few omnivores who ate a lot of junk food. However, I would wager that on balance, there are proportionally more people in the latter category than the former.

I'm familiar with Wade and numerous others who've written on the subject. Note that I didn't say that humans aren't omnivores- just that your claim that we are is poorly substantiated, just as is the claim that we are completely herbivores, or carnivores, for that matter. In reality, we have the cognitive and emotional ability to choose what we want to eat, no? So, arguments about the length of the digestive tract, the fact that we have flat molars, etc., etc. are ultimately specious.

So now that we've settled that, the main thing on the table (as it were) is that regardless of whether or not one subscribes to a given philosophical school of eating or another, it is entirely possible to have a diet regardless of whether one is a vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or whatever. The issue is balance. I've known a few heavy junk good consuming vegans who were committed to a pretty unhealthy diet, just as I've known a few omnivores who ate a lot of junk food. However, I would wager that on balance, there are proportionally more people in the latter category than the former.

I take exception that the omnivore claim is poorly substantiated. There's a reason why human camps of prehistory always includes piles of animal bones. The study prehistoric societies indicates some significant non-animal consumption as well. The Australian Aborigines come to mind. It's about as proven as almost anything in nutrition.

I suspect that actual prehistoric diets were as varied as the natural resources of the location and were as extreme as necessary to survive. As recently as the early 1900's, the Inuit subsisted pretty much solely on meat and paid for it with undesirable side effects such as osteoporosis. However, they consumed so much fish that it was the first solid clue that DHA and EPA were beneficial in reducing cardiovascular and some cancer issues. They had so much of it in their blood that they would bleed from a cut for 8 minutes vice the more normal 4. Of course any nutrition benefit such as theses omega-3s are thought to have, one has to recognize that any primitive diet was accompanied by a very physically demanding life-style. The exercise was beneficial as well and possibly more so.

We have the luxury now to successfully pursue the eating style of choice. It's made possible by mass distribution and nutrition science.

I agree most vegetarians and vegans eat a more healthy diet than the vast majority of meat consumers. I don't personally subscribe to balance or even moderation. Too subjective and dependent solely on the practitioner's knowledge of nutrition and the knowledge of the effects of physical activity. That and the preponderance of bad science in the nutrition field is why I've study nutrition and exercised based physiology from textbooks as a hobby.

Al

HI,
there's been considerable research done on why eskimoes who eat alot of animal fats have very little heart disease. The reason is simple wild animals eat better food than domestic many cows and meat producing domestic animals eat meals that are to rich in simple sugars and to many carbs where many of the wild animals of the north eat fish and sea life rich in good omega's. Farmers need to allow more grazing and less corn .
Nature has the answer to many health problems its man who mess it up trying to improve the growth rate of animals thru hormones and antibiotics and feed that rich in carbs.
Doug

Nature has the answer to many health problems its man who mess it up trying to improve the growth rate of animals thru hormones and antibiotics and feed that rich in carbs.
Doug

Well said. Factory farming is a huge contributor to health and environmental problems everywhere it exists.

Hi Gang,
I posted the original question about statins. I've been giving it time to see if they're working for me.
I want to know that as a cyclist (doing a harder cardio workout than a non-cyclist), will statins affect me more than a non-cyclist? I seem to be tired a lot. It can change from day to day. Does anyone else feel tired from statins?
My legs felt heavy and tired after just a 10-mile easy road ride the other day. That's definately not like me. Has anyone else had this experience?
I was on Simvastatin 10mg (generic Zocor) for about a month. Obviously I'll check with my doctor but I really think they only know what the pharma companies tell them. I know my own body better than they do. I was hoping to find someone on this board who might be experiencing similar symptoms Thanks for your input so far.

Joe

I am on a minimum (10mg) dose of Provacal. It has been a year, and I haven't noticed any side effects that I can definitely blame on the statin. I am not doing so well on the hills, but I have been attributing that to being out of shape after a winter of not riding much. I am still uneasy about taking it.
I have a friend who suffered considerable muscle loss on one drug. He was switched to a different one and is no longer losing muscle, but what he lost never came back. I don't think I will refill my prescription, unless the next blood work shows the cholesterol rising. It's only borderline, I think I'll take my chances without the drug.

Hi Gang,
I posted the original question about statins. I've been giving it time to see if they're working for me.
I want to know that as a cyclist (doing a harder cardio workout than a non-cyclist), will statins affect me more than a non-cyclist? I seem to be tired a lot. It can change from day to day. Does anyone else feel tired from statins?
My legs felt heavy and tired after just a 10-mile easy road ride the other day. That's definately not like me. Has anyone else had this experience?
I was on Simvastatin 10mg (generic Zocor) for about a month. Obviously I'll check with my doctor but I really think they only know what the pharma companies tell them. I know my own body better than they do. I was hoping to find someone on this board who might be experiencing similar symptoms Thanks for your input so far.

Joe


i was on Lipitor for about six months over a year ago. I noticed a substantial reduction in my endurance, and especially on my weightlifting performance. I dropped my max on squats and deadlifts by around 30%. Plus, I had this strange tingling sensation in my thighs (definitely not delayed-onset muscle soreness, which is normal when you periodize weights). I told my doc about it, and he stopped the drug and I haven't gone on any other statin either- well, at least one that's made by a big pharma. I do take phytosterols daily and they seem to be working just fine, without the side effects.

Hmmm Doc started me on Crestor a month ago

Hmmm Doc started me on Crestor a month ago
That might not be a bad thing-I've been on 3 different statins-I've not noticed any side effects taking Crestor, unlike some of the others I've tried. And Crestor dropped my cholest. down to an acceptable level-has worked for me, but eveyone's different-hope it works as well for you.

My wife is having severe pains in her neck. When she goes off the statins, the pains go away. This is her 2nd trial (different statin drug) and she got pains with both. She is taking COQ10??

She takes fish oil, eats whole grains, etc.

I guess Crestor is next!

Two years ago the family doctor put my wife on Lipitor. That went for 1 year. It did really nasty things to her mind. Got to the point where I called it chemically induced senility! Just about totally crashed her memory.

So I started looking at natural ways of dealing with the problem. Ran into the thing about red rice in the Asian diets. Then learned that this red rice was the original source for commercial statins. Then found out that the drug companies lobbied congress to pass a law where only red rice free of the statin could be marketed in the U.S. So any red rice purchased in the U.S. must have the natural statin removed. Talk about protecting one's turf!

Just visited my GP doctor yesterday. Sure enough, my LDL and cholesterol were too high since I gave up stains about 6 months ago. But we both agreed based on the other parameters I'm in excellent health and I can ignore the cholesterol.

If does do a google search for LDL and old, you'll find several trials that indicate that my high numbers (LDL 150, cho. 220) have the lowest death rate for older folks. Both higher and lower have higher death rates from all causes.

You do need to keep the HDL above 40. HDL responds nicely to strenuous exercise and I keep mine 50 or higher. Women keep their HDL high as they have little testosterone. It appears that triglicerides and low HDL are better predictors for problems in woman: for men it's mostly LDL.
Reducing LDL does seem to reduce cardio deaths some, but the cancer death rates seem to increase to more than compensate.

Al

Whitenight,
<<<So I started looking at natural ways of dealing with the problem. Ran into the thing about red rice in the Asian diets. Then learned that this red rice was the original source for commercial statins. Then found out that the drug companies lobbied congress to pass a law where only red rice free of the statin could be marketed in the U.S. So any red rice purchased in the U.S. must have the natural statin removed. Talk about protecting one's turf!>>>
I read the samething. I suppose you can by Red Yeast Rice (complete w/ statin) in Canada??? It seems that the "reduction" in life-style (not being able to ride or workout at previous levels) from taking statins is enough of a deterrent for me to look to other means of prevention (I do not have high chol. - Dr. gave it to me as a preventative after a stroke).
You can bet I watch my diet (always have), I will keep exercising, etc. I hope that everyone else here that has been affected negatively by these statins has made the necessary adjustments that are right for them. Make yours an informed decision/choice. No one knows your body like you do! Good luck!

Just visited my GP doctor yesterday. Sure enough, my LDL and cholesterol were too high since I gave up stains about 6 months ago. But we both agreed based on the other parameters I'm in excellent health and I can ignore the cholesterol.

If does do a google search for LDL and old, you'll find several trials that indicate that my high numbers (LDL 150, cho. 220) have the lowest death rate for older folks. Both higher and lower have higher death rates from all causes.

You do need to keep the HDL above 40. HDL responds nicely to strenuous exercise and I keep mine 50 or higher. Women keep their HDL high as they have little testosterone. It appears that triglycerides and low HDL are better predictors for problems in woman: for men it's mostly LDL.
Reducing LDL does seem to reduce cardio deaths some, but the cancer death rates seem to increase to more than compensate.

Al


Correction: I came across more info. The cancer rate increases for lower (than 155) LDL only for smokers. For non smokers, and a fit trial group, there's an insignificant reduction of cardiovascular deaths. This was the Muster or Procam study of some 11,000 men ages 36 to 65. "Fit" was defined as actively working in factories in Munster, Germany. The trial group had a lower death rate than the general population and those who had symptoms of cardio or cancer issues were excluded for the trial at the beginning of the 10 year study.

Based on my study of health vs lifestyle for some 45 years as a hobby and reading recently published physiology books for the last few years, fitness is far more important in maintaining good health into old age than finessing the diet assuming of course the diet is not too extreme. Fitness can be defined as that derived from a program of the intensity and amounts advocated in Younger Next Year. The good doctor who wrote the book (Lodge) is definitely well founded on the science of exercise physiology.

Al

I just took myself off Crestor after more than a year. I've developed severe cramping in my calf muscles after as little as a single flight of stairs (I walk up six flights every morning). Also walking or cycling is not much better. Not sure if the statins are to blame but I'll re-evaluate after a month.

After reading this post a few days ago ... having been thinking about the same subject for many months ... with my script for Simvastatin needing to be re-filled, I chose to NOT re-fill it.

I've had total cholesterol for over a year of well under 200, and all the aches and pains mentioned here.

I took my last tab on Sunday night, today is Wed., and my ride yesterday and today have been pain free. I did my typical routes at the same exertion level, and the aches I had become used to, did not exist.

I have my blood work done 4 times a year (for diabetes), so I'll keep tabs on my levels, but I'm done. I have added Centrum Cardio(w/ phytosterols) and CoQ10 to my list of supplements, and will add more legumes, fruits/veggies and nuts to my diet ... and ride pain free.

After reading this post a few days ago ... having been thinking about the same subject for many months ... with my script for Simvastatin needing to be re-filled, I chose to NOT re-fill it.


Scary that people are changing their drug program based on internet posts.

Not really ...

I've made an educated decision based on months of consideration. While it might be a concern for someone to change there regimen under normal circumstances, I will still be monitoring my HDL/LDL levels every 4 months ... I have blood taken by my endocrinologist and cardiologist regularly.

For over a year my cholesterol has been around 120 ... if it goes up, I will notice in just a few months. I will have plenty of time to catch it before it rises even near 200.

I recognize the importance of the other scripts I take ... Coreg, Plavix, metphormin, and losinapril. I know what they do, and why I need them. As for simvastatin, there is no reason I still need to take it. I will control my cholesterol with my diet which is already, and has been for two years, very healthy. I ride one hour a day (minimum), 6 days a week, and now that the weather is getting warmer, will get back to my typical riding of 200-300 miles a week.

Cholesterol is not in the hereditary of my family. My problem arose from a diet of steak and eggs everyday (old school bodybuilder, thinking he was invincible) for years. Which was stupid, I'll admit, but I had no reason to think cholesterol would effect me, since there was no history of high chorlesteol in my family. At the same time, I had taken 2 years off the bike for business/family reasons. I had a mild heart event, had a stent implanted, spent 26 mos. on simvastatin, and here I am. 50 lbs. lighter, and as of the past three days, riding pain free.

BTW, I have had two doctors (off the record) tell me that I should not have any issues with my approach. (On the record) they get paid to sell us on pharmaceuticals.:D

I do not recommend anyone dismiss there statin drugs without consulting there physician(s).

The onset of my problem was very noticeable. The only thing I was doing differently, in my life, was takking statins. So, I decided to stop - after almost immediate imorovement, I made an appointment with my doctor to discuss.

During the interim, I had two more friends experience similar problems - they also stopped, and noticed immediate improvement.

My doc didn't believe that they were causing the problem - but I refused to take them again.

Since that time - I have found MANY instances of the same side effects, even NOW reported by the drug mfr.

My doctor now admits that I was right in my refusal to continue down that path.

Sometimes, info gleaned from the i-net is VERY helpful.

am taking a generic statin drug (10mg, for cholesterol). Taking it for about a month. I've been feeling kind of lathargic over the last week and during my road ride today. I felt lousy. Does anyone else take statins? Do you feel any side affects? If so, what did you do about it? Please help.

Sometimes high cholesterol is a symptom of greater metabolic problems it often goes hand-in-hand with hypothyroidism and diabetes. Hypothyroidism often manifests itself with flulike symptoms. your whole body feels achey and you feel rundown as well as feeling cold all the time and having a low body temperature. At the biochemical level because you're not metabolizing food at optimal levels the excess sugars get converted to fats and cholesterol.

You may want to suggest to your doctor to have your thyroid levels checked as a precaution.

Some times the body just manufactures "too much" cholesterol no matter the diet and activity level even when one is in perfect health. That's my problem and it appears to be common. Unfortunately, modern medical research is seriously flawed and a perfectly healthy condition is defined as unhealthy and in need of expensive medication.

The number one health issue is lack of physical activity which leads to over "fatness" which results in insulin issues and the whole range of modern diseases. It was Jean Meyer back in the 1940's(?) who first proposed that lesser activity increases the appetite and of course weight gain. That's been subsequently shown to be correct. However, the over abundance of poor food choices which were not available in Meyer's time and the super-sizing of meals plays a big roll as well.

I just read that 1 in 4 4-year olds is obese now. They are starting to administer statins to 9-year olds. You can bet those 9-year olds are couch potatoes and over weight. We'd rather pop pills than sweat. It's the American way.

Meyers father was apparently a researcher on the famous double-decker bus study where it was noted that the conductors had far fewer cardiovascular issues than the drivers. The conductors collected the fares so they were on their feet all day and they ran up and down the stairs. Same effect was noted at the docks for the ship loaders vs the office staff.

Stairs are unbelievable good for you. A few years ago we bought a house in N Georgia which has the family room down stairs and everything else upstairs. It's a very long and steep stair case and I must go up/down a dozen times/day. We live there about half time. The first week in the GA house used to wipe me out and I have a first class exercise program.

I added squats to my weight training lifting nearly my body weight to cure the problem. It helped the mountain biking too as do the stairs.

Al

Not really ...

I've made an educated decision based on months of consideration. While it might be a concern for someone to change there regimen under normal circumstances, I will still be monitoring my HDL/LDL levels every 4 months ... I have blood taken by my endocrinologist and cardiologist regularly.

At the same time, I had taken 2 years off the bike for business/family reasons. I had a mild heart event, had a stent implanted, spent 26 mos. on simvastatin, and here I am. 50 lbs. lighter, and as of the past three days, riding pain free.

BTW, I have had two doctors (off the record) tell me that I should not have any issues with my approach. (On the record) they get paid to sell us on pharmaceuticals.:D

I do not recommend anyone dismiss there statin drugs without consulting there physician(s).


Just a minor comment to clarify my negative comments on statins. My comments apply only to primary intervention where there are no negative health symptoms, only higher levels of LDL. Statins are effective for secondary intervention where one has had a cardio event or has other stresses such as smoking.
or possibly significantly over-weight.

Al

Scary that people are changing their drug program based on internet posts.

As opposed to just blindly following what one doctor says without researching or advocating for yourself at all? I'm never going to be that kind of patient.

I'm finding this thread and some of the others very interesting. I just had bloods back, and I'm somewhat high in LDL (154) and triglycerides (167). There is significant risk of heart disease in my family, so my doctor wants to see the LDL come down to 130, and isn't too worried about the other one. My total cholesterol and HDL are no issue.

I had similar results last year, and was directed to continue exercise and reduce white starches and sugars as much as I could - I didn't see this as very clear advice. I did try to comply, and the levels now are about the same. My exercise actually went down the second half of last year, due to significant shoulder pain while in shoulder PT.

Doc is suggesting some sort of meds, but isn't real specific yet on which one. I'm a little nervous based on what I've been reading here. She says the probability of muscle ache is around 10% across the population (I think that might have been for Lipitor), and can be mitigated with a different med. My levels aren't high enough to require meds, but that a med would be reasonable. At least it's in the area where some attention should be paid. She hasn't yet concluded if it's a familial thing or lifestyle issue. My dad's gone so I can't really find out what his medical records say.

I am impressed that some of you (from the Clydes' threads) are getting along quite well on very low dosages of Lipitor.

I've "counterproposed" that I try diet and exercise for a while and see what happens, and she's ok with that. For exercise I'm probably decently set, regarding aerobics. I do need to add some weight work, for upper body, and for general joint and skeletal improvement, a la YNR. For diet I'm studying what to do.

The doctor also said there is an added benefit to using statins, that they can generally reduce inflammation. Has anyone here encountered this claim in their research?

As opposed to just blindly following what one doctor says without researching or advocating for yourself at all? I'm never going to be that kind of patient.

That's for sure. It was 44 years ago That I returned a prescription for high blood pressure to a doctor when he couldn't/wouldn't discuss alternatives. I cured it in a few months with jogging. That set the tone from then on.

Al

I'm finding this thread and some of the others very interesting. I just had bloods back, and I'm somewhat high in LDL (154) and triglycerides (167). There is significant risk of heart disease in my family, so my doctor wants to see the LDL come down to 130, and isn't too worried about the other one. My total cholesterol and HDL are no issue.

I had similar results last year, and was directed to continue exercise and reduce white starches and sugars as much as I could - I didn't see this as very clear advice. I did try to comply, and the levels now are about the same. My exercise actually went down the second half of last year, due to significant shoulder pain while in shoulder PT.

Doc is suggesting some sort of meds, but isn't real specific yet on which one. I'm a little nervous based on what I've been reading here. She says the probability of muscle ache is around 10% across the population (I think that might have been for Lipitor), and can be mitigated with a different med. My levels aren't high enough to require meds, but that a med would be reasonable. At least it's in the area where some attention should be paid. She hasn't yet concluded if it's a familial thing or lifestyle issue. My dad's gone so I can't really find out what his medical records say.

I am impressed that some of you (from the Clydes' threads) are getting along quite well on very low dosages of Lipitor.

I've "counterproposed" that I try diet and exercise for a while and see what happens, and she's ok with that. For exercise I'm probably decently set, regarding aerobics. I do need to add some weight work, for upper body, and for general joint and skeletal improvement, a la YNR. For diet I'm studying what to do.

The doctor also said there is an added benefit to using statins, that they can generally reduce inflammation. Has anyone here encountered this claim in their research?



The acceptable range for LDL is 50 to 130. For triglycerides it's 40 to 160: both values from my lab printout of last week. Just 20mg of Pravastatin/Pravacol drove my LDL down to the 90's to 110 from a typical 150. I suffered no apparent negatives, but my wife had significant leg pain on just a 5 mg dose. Paravastatin is a weaker statin and it's one of the originals, so there's a lot a data on it. Three doctors who I've discussed statins with over the years believe it's one of the safest out there. "Low doses" of a more powerful statin might be equivalent of a higher dose of a less powerful.

An excellent perspective on statins for primary intervention is found in Overdosed America by Abramson, M.D. You'll find that exercise is far more effective (even in the famous Framingham study) than statins. The exercise data in Framingham was suppressed as it detracted from the statin results. Drug companies who conduct the majority of the trials and who pay the salaries of the government employees who monitor and review the trials make no money from an exercise outcome that outshines the drug. Abramson: "The most active third of the original 5000 men and women in the study had 40% lower death rate than the least active third".

It appears one needs to be over 40 on HDL. HDL responds well to exercise and I'm able to keep mine above 50.

The reduction in starches/sugars is the latest medical "fad" prescription. Not that it does not have merit depending on your activity level, amount of body fat and how much you eat in the context of the rest of the diet. It appears that insulin insensitivity which can be a precursor to type 2 diabetes is now believed to be a root cause of cardiovascular issues and many cancers. However, what they don't mention is that it's true for the inactive and over-weight/obese portion of the population which now far outnumbers the very active and not over-weight.

The prescription as usual is the one-size fits all approach and is based on what I call couch potato medicine where the trial/study subjects (cohort) are already sick. A little study of the more recent information on human evolution indicates that we have evolved as endurance athletes which is alluded to in YNY. So an active lifestyle where one burns a lot of calories in activity with occasional periods of heart rates over the lactate threshold is our default condition. If you're over-fat and not very active you are in essence sick to begin with.

If one does exercise at higher heart rates, you actually increase your insulin sensitivity a great deal and the effect from a particular aggressive session can last up to 24 to 48 hours. That's why exercise is considered as almost immunizing against type 2. The blood glucose at higher heart rates actually does not need insulin to penetrate the muscle cell walls, so the circulating insulin drops no matter if you are eating pure sugar. I have found that I need some those sugars and other now evil carbs like pasta to keep my energy up and allow rapid recovery after a hard ride. As Ryan says, endurance athletes have a special relationship with carbs. Her book, Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes, second edition is a great nutrition book for all activity levels. It deals with the healthy diet (and hydration) issue as well as supporting an active lifestyle

The study of nutrition is non-rewarding due to treating nutrients in isolation and using inactive "sick" cohorts. The only books I found useful is Ryan's, In Defense of Food by Pollan and The Queen of Fats by Allport.

There are many claims for statins, but the best way to reduce inflammation it appears is to insure a good ratio of Omega-6/Omega-3 (DHA and EPA specifically). In the old days it's believed that we had a 2 or 3 to one ratio and not the 10 to 20 to one of today. You can get a background on the issue in The Queen of Fats. The O-6's thicken the blood and increases it's tendency to clot while DHA and EPA have the opposite affect.You can check out your own diet here : http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000140000000000000000-1w.html .

One needs to consume fish possibly supplement with fish oil that quote EPA & DHA content and reduce foods high in O-6. I eat some fish every day as it beats statins and the aspirin a day routine. As a typical asthmatic, I'm allergic to aspirin anyhow.

The bottom line on statins for primary intervention is that you have to treat 100 people to get one person to benefit. Not very effective unless you are that one person in 100. However, while you are studying the issue, you could certainly take them and defer a final decision until you feel well enough informed. The leg pain will be obvious and you can stop if it occurs. The biggest known risk is liver damage, but apparently it's rare at least for Pravastatin.

The real issue is not LDL or even nutrition, it's reducing the risk of death at any instant and maintaining full functional abilities to the passing to that great single-track in the sky. The only real way to understand how to do that based on real data is the study of exercise physiology. For the past couple of years I've been going through three levels of that approach: (1) Younger Next Year and Spark (by Ratey, MD), (2) Physical Activity and Health (Bouchard, Blair & Haskell), (3) Exercise Physiology; Energy, Nutrition & Human performance (McArdle, Katch & Katch). It's like peeling the layers of an onion: #(2) shows where level (1) is coming from and the science in (3) expands on (2). The devil IS in the details and it gives one insight in how to deal with the nutrition issue which pales in comparison to the activity issue.

Levels 2 and 3 aren't easy reads. However, for #2 & #3 you can get the major points without resorting to learning much of the scientific jargon. However, some googling will get one past the rough spots.

An example of how nutrition research is misleading is the famous/infamous The China Study by Campbell. It's the most thorough, best done population study of all time and will likely remain so. I was reviewing my "highlights" in it a few weeks ago to see if I had leaned something in the ensuing years since I read it that would allow me to find holes in the conclusions/results. Darned if I didn't. In chart 4.3 he shows that a rural Chinese who is not prone to cancer or cardiovascular issue burns 650 calories per day than his American counterpart; both normalized to 143 lbs.

Campbell explains that American get far more cardio and cancer issues than the Chinese because we eat meat (including fish) and dairy and they effectively don't. That 650 calories (2640 vs 1989) is what a 143 lb person would burn in 7 miles of jogging. Of course the Chinese weren't jogging, but they are doing a heck of a lot hard manual labor. In other words, they are in the human default condition. If you go to #(2) above, Figure 9.5, you'll see the same reduction in death rates (from all causes) if not greater than The China Study and independent of diet. And, for Americans, not rural Chinese. The most fit in the 25,000 member cohort had 1/6 the chance of dying than an inactive person.

Beware of nutrition books that ignore the physical activity component. Nutrition researchers, like Campbell are out to make a point about nutrition and will totally ignore valuable activity data even when it's a glaringly huge difference.

Al