Professional Cycling - Ivan Basso

Hi all,

I keep looking on cycling web sites and keep seeing the Cannondale/Basso ads and it seems so wrong to me. I don't get it - with Armstrong back there are so many people who say he's bad for the sport's image because he's a doper, etc. etc. This for a guy who's never been popped for it (PLEASE don't turn this into yet another Lance the doper thread we have PLENTY of those.) Tyler Hamilton is basically persona non grata as is Floyd Landis. But here's Basso with ad campaigns built around him, a favorite for the Giro and people treating him as if he's the returning hero back from injury or illness or something. I don't get it - I believe that he has served his time and the past is the past but I just don't get why he's treated so differently from these other guys? It's like the doping never happened (just like he claims!).

Yeah, from the post I just posted you might say it's an American vs. European thing but there are plenty of Europeans who come off doping suspensions and aren't treated that way.

Chris

Maybe it's because Basso didn't ***** and whine and deny and bombard the press with bizarre theories and file lawsuits and whatnot? Basically, he got busted, didn't kick up a fuss, served his penalty.

(Am I remembering this correctly? I could be wrong about Basso. Hard to keep all the dopers straight. :lol:)

Really, I can't say *****??? Son of a *****!!!! :D

Son of a *****! I guess you have a point to some degree there. But Basso basically pleaded "no contest". He said he bought (or at least was provided) doping products but didn't use them. But you're right, he didn't fight it but still pretty weaselly. I still don't think he should be treated like a returning hero. I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

I agree with you to some extent on Tyler. Floyd, OTOH, really did get railroaded. The independent lab that did the counter-testing came up as a negative but WADA decided to ignore that and send it back to France to make sure they returned a positive and made sure Floyd's people couldn't watch the test. Maybe he was guilty but the whole process was BS. I understand in that case the authorities being unhappy with him - he made them look really bad. But one would think in that case that sponsors - especially American sponsors would be more than willing to have him back if they're so willing to have Basso back.

The other weird thing about Basso's case (and Millar's) is that everyone seems to think he'll come back clean and at the same level he was when he was (presumably) doping. If the doping products don't make any difference to performance why do riders use them and why do we test for them?

I think it is an American/European thing but only in a positive way. Italians get behind Italian riders just like Americans get behind American riders (Landis was applauded all along the route in the Tour of Cali). But there are just WAY more European cycling fans so it seems (to an American cycling fan) as if its unfair to American racers who are returning.

I kind of disagree with you about people labeling Basso as a "hero", he certainly was treated that way before the allegations but despite the ad you cite, the response to him is much less now. He's an elite athlete who was suspended for cheating and after paying his dues he's back plying his trade. No more mentions of him conquering the cycling world. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone is entitled to a second chance.

In the US most sports fans don't want to know about doping athletes, if they did you'd hear a lot more about football players and GOLFERS using steroids. The sports media is all upset about it but the fans, not so much.

Hi all,

I keep looking on cycling web sites and keep seeing the Cannondale/Basso ads and it seems so wrong to me. I don't get it - with Armstrong back there are so many people who say he's bad for the sport's image because he's a doper, etc. etc. This for a guy who's never been popped for it (PLEASE don't turn this into yet another Lance the doper thread we have PLENTY of those.) Tyler Hamilton is basically persona non grata as is Floyd Landis. But here's Basso with ad campaigns built around him, a favorite for the Giro and people treating him as if he's the returning hero back from injury or illness or something. I don't get it - I believe that he has served his time and the past is the past but I just don't get why he's treated so differently from these other guys? It's like the doping never happened (just like he claims!).

Yeah, from the post I just posted you might say it's an American vs. European thing but there are plenty of Europeans who come off doping suspensions and aren't treated that way.

Chris


By choosing Basso, an obviously ironical decision by Cannondale given his tainted past paired with their righteous tagline "The Good Fight," they're betting redemption is a powerful selling tool. I don't think they're trying to make us forget or forgive his past. They've incorporated it into a more complex narrative. And who knows, it's a risk that may pay off. We've noticed it. They already had him raffle off his Japan Cup bike for charity. It's an interesting campaign.

That's EXACtly the ad that inspired me to start this conversation. An American company with him as the center for an ad campaign.....I'm NOT talking about the Italian media, Gear. Mostly the Aussie/N. America media (Cyclingnews.com).

Cannondale has had a relationship with Italian teams for years. This connection with Basso grew from that. As far as Basso's past, He served his time & lost some of his best years, He has talent and is due a fresh start.
Hamilton & Landis have served their time also but are now in the twilight of their carriers. I don't think ether will return to the top. They both have greasy personalities to boot. The type people you don't let baby sit your kids. Eddie Haskell comes to mind.

I know Tyler. I'd let him babysit my kids. We've never talked about his "situation" other than it's been tough on him.

Hamilton was busted big time, not like it's some questionable or inaccurate test. He was using other peoples blood & was warned several times before the actual enforcement. Lucky for him the back-up olympic test was destroyed.

Son of a *****! I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

The other weird thing about Basso's case (and Millar's) is that everyone seems to think he'll come back clean and at the same level he was when he was (presumably) doping. If the doping products don't make any difference to performance why do riders use them and why do we test for them?

Love the Freddie Hubbard avatar!!

Addressing only the Millar references: Millar denied, denied, denied and pretty much stated that Gaumont was not telling the truth about the level of doping taking place at Cofidis. Only after caught redhanded did he finally come clean, not that he had a choice with the needles sitting in plain sight at his home. He's no angel. Millar has been a shadow of his former self which says to me that he doped for longer and more often than he confessed. He has yet to come close to the results that he had pre-suspension.

....He has yet to come close to the results that he had pre-suspension.

Could be more an indication that he is just getting older and slower rather than a potential "smoking needle", no?

I'd have to say "no" to that, but if you want to think that's the cause for his mediocre results since his return, by all means feel free.

I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

But one would think in that case that sponsors - especially American sponsors would be more than willing to have him back if they're so willing to have Basso back.

1. Millar came clean when the police, while in his home found his drug materials in a hollowed out book. Then he was brought to tears.

2. Sponsors don't decide who rides on the team. They, of course can pull their sponsorship if they don't choose to associate with certain riders.

As for me, Basso served his time. Leave him alone.

The doper bashing is quite anti-American. Basso and Millar fessed up because they had no other option, else they would have been doping for years. Now they're 'stars' - examples of how professional cyclists should conduct themselves. Yeah right.

1. Millar came clean when the police, while in his home found his drug materials in a hollowed out book. Then he was brought to tears.

2. Sponsors don't decide who rides on the team. They, of course can pull their sponsorship if they don't choose to associate with certain riders.

As for me, Basso served his time. Leave him alone.

Yeah, but they do decide which rider to build their entire marketing campaign around.

Millar did eventually come clean. None of this Ted Stevens I bought it but then threw it away stuff.

Was Extra terrestrial. Now mortal. Anything else?

And Floyd got railroaded? Yeah right, the guy was testing the limits of HGH consumption.

Yeah, but they do decide which rider to build their entire marketing campaign around.

Millar did eventually come clean. None of this Ted Stevens I bought it but then threw it away stuff.

In case you have not been paying attention, Senator Stevens was totally acquitted. And, in fact the Justice Department is now going after the prosecutors. What did the judge say? Worst case he'd ever seen in 25 years on the bench? Also being investigated is how this little suare changed an election. But I digress...

Fact is that Basso is an Italian riding on an Italian team focusing on the Giro who served his suspension and now he's back. If he wins the Giro, that will be a huge deal for him, his team, and his sponsors.

The last thing you remember is not always right or true.

The doper bashing is quite anti-American. Basso and Millar fessed up because they had no other option, else they would have been doping for years. Now they're 'stars' - examples of how professional cyclists should conduct themselves. Yeah right.

And this is different than the world of professional sports and the general population, how?

I read a recent survey done in high schools where students think it's OK to cheat as long as they don't get caught.

BTW...most people engaged in illegal acts don't stop unless they get caught. And having lived for a short time in the world of paid bike racers, most of them don't just wake up and start doping. They dope because the culture was that's what you did to keep your job. I know a bunch of guys, and that includes me, that elected not to do that and we moved on to other things.

In case you have not been paying attention, Senator Stevens was totally acquitted. And, in fact the Justice Department is now going after the prosecutors.
Totally false. Read the basis of the charges being dropped, and they have nothing to do with Steven's guilt. Specifically, the failure to hand over to defense lawyers a key piece of evidence suggesting that Bill Allen, the main witness for the prosecution, had contradicted himself. Stevens is known to have accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars of gifts from a supporter that had benefited from Stevens' actions.

Sorry, I meant Ted Haggard. Headlines on the brain. I didn't know that Ted Stevens also bought meth from a gay hooker and then threw it away. Learn something new every day! Did he go to gay rehab too? Did Basso? This is all so confusing.....:wtf:

Was Extra terrestrial. Now mortal. Anything else?

And Floyd got railroaded? Yeah right, the guy was testing the limits of HGH consumption.

Welcome to Bike Forums, Mr. Pound. :lol:

Was Extra terrestrial. Now mortal. Anything else?

And Floyd got railroaded? Yeah right, the guy was testing the limits of HGH consumption.

You do know he got popped for testosterone, right?

Son of a *****! I guess you have a point to some degree there. But Basso basically pleaded "no contest". He said he bought (or at least was provided) doping products but didn't use them. But you're right, he didn't fight it but still pretty weaselly. I still don't think he should be treated like a returning hero. I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

I agree with you to some extent on Tyler. Floyd, OTOH, really did get railroaded. The independent lab that did the counter-testing came up as a negative but WADA decided to ignore that and send it back to France to make sure they returned a positive and made sure Floyd's people couldn't watch the test. Maybe he was guilty but the whole process was BS. I understand in that case the authorities being unhappy with him - he made them look really bad. But one would think in that case that sponsors - especially American sponsors would be more than willing to have him back if they're so willing to have Basso back.

The other weird thing about Basso's case (and Millar's) is that everyone seems to think he'll come back clean and at the same level he was when he was (presumably) doping. If the doping products don't make any difference to performance why do riders use them and why do we test for them?

Millar never 'came clean' as everyone keeps saying he did. He admitted to it after all evidence was provided and then started pointing fingers and making himself look better.

The only thing cleaner he has is his image.

You do know he got popped for testosterone, right?

Yes, I know that.

I was alluding to David Clinger's comments about Floyd taking huge amounts of HGH. Is there a test for that yet?

After all of the crap he was taking with USPS he probably thought a patch or some topical T wasn't even cheating.

The idea he got railroaded is absurd. Him testing positive for Testosterone is the tip of the iceberg. Kinda like Al Capone getting nabbed for tax evasion.

My question is hw can we expect Basso to do? Like Lance, bc he has a lack of racing minutes, it is hard to gauge his performance. landis, cunego, contador have been racing in major events since march/feb, but basso has been pretty much under the radar. Is LiQuigas hiding something?

I expect Ivan to be in contention for the GC.

Yes, I know that.

I was alluding to David Clinger's comments about Floyd taking huge amounts of HGH. Is there a test for that yet?

After all of the crap he was taking with USPS he probably thought a patch or some topical T wasn't even cheating.

The idea he got railroaded is absurd. Him testing positive for Testosterone is the tip of the iceberg. Kinda like Al Capone getting nabbed for tax evasion.

Well, I understand that your investigators have moles deep within every team and 24x7 surveillance of all riders so if you say so it must be true. But to the public at large without your inside knowledge this stuff where they sent a sample to an independent lab and it came back negative so they said, "never mind, we'll just ignore that and send it back to the original lab and tell them who's sample it is and what they're looking for and that for their own integrity they'd better come up with a positive. And no, your guy can't watch because he was late or something" seemed a bit unfair. Like I said, however, I don't have 24x7 surveillance on him like yourself.

I expect Ivan to be in contention for the GC.

Yeah, he's a big favorite. Interesting. Back from suspension, clean and sober, off the sauce........and stronger than ever.......

Yeah, he's a big favorite. Interesting. Back from suspension, clean and sober, off the sauce........and stronger than ever.......

Tests have improved a lot in the past 3 years. We'll soon be able to judge for ourselves.

I expect to see Basso, a couple Astana riders, Menchov (or Gesink) Michael Rogers, Dave Zabriskie, Stein Devolder and Andy Schleck to be in contention. Antonio Colom & David Arroyo are my dark horses. Now watch a few of these guys not be on the start list. :o

Yeah maybe. Of course Ricco got tested like 16 times in last year's Tour and only got caught twice. This with this supposedly great test. So it hasn't come that far.

I dunno, I've decided that either the entire peloton is on the juice (or at least the 1st 1/2-3/4) or the stuff doesn't help all that much. It doesn't make sense that guys that aren't on the sauce beat guys who are if stuff like EPO makes the radical difference they say it does. So logically either they ARE doping or it doesn't make a difference. Basso beig a case in point. I don't believe his story that he merely "intended" to dope - he was doing it. So is he still doing it or did it not make a difference when he was?

That being said, as usual I'm looking forward to it (though it's been a great season already) and still love the sport as much as ever. Now if Jens Voight ever gets caught doping I'll be seriously disillusioned......

Hi all,

I keep looking on cycling web sites and keep seeing the Cannondale/Basso ads and it seems so wrong to me.Basso has served his time. There's nothing wrong with him appearing in ads for Cannondale.

:roflmao2:
Basso has served his time. There's nothing wrong with him appearing in ads for Cannondale.

:lol::roflmao2:

Yeah, the great thing is when I got my Super Six last month, I also was entitled to an ampule of Cera every month for the next 12 months. Apparently Cannondale and Roche have a partnership.

I gave my buddy the Cera and he's dropping me like a rock on his Master X-Light.:lol::roflmao2:

For all the happy emotioncons you use, you come off as an angry and bitter guy.

For all the happy emotioncons you use, you come off as an angry and bitter guy.

Not bitter at all?

Basso is an unrepentant doper and I think it's absurd that Cannondale is using him to promote their bikes.

I'd definitely never buy a Trek, because of their advertising strategy. This in spite of the fact that they're nice bikes, I like their technology, and I like the way they ride. I think they have a nice warranty also. For all the people they've gained by their ad strategy, they are losing a few too.

I'd think twice about a Cannondale now too although I think they have a nice line. The super six seems like a great bike and even the synapse is nice too.

I think you're a guy who engages in recriminations as standard operating procedure. Attacks the messenger and so forth.

Apparently you think Basso is just a swell guy and if you were at Cannondale you'd use him as a spokesperson. I would never use him. That's the distinction here.

You're the bitter one for using your misdirected anger at me. You'd never challenge Basso, would ya?

You've made many inconsequential presumptions about me (the veracity of which are unimportant), as well as babbled about: your disinclination to purchase a Trek bicycle, how you'd never use Basso, and how you'd think twice before buying a Cannondale--Reid, really, who gives a s__t?

Like I said, you come off as a bitter and angry guy; whether that's true is of no real concern to me. I offered that opinion because you enage people in a combative, adversarial, and mocking manner if they offer an opinion that conflicts with yours. What you have inaccurately interpreted as anger is, in reality, annoyance with your demeanor.

But I will tell you, if given the opportunity, I wouldn't hire a spokesperson that treats conjecture as fact. If I were pressed, that is were I'd say that you and I diverge.

You've made many inconsequential presumptions about me (the veracity of which are unimportant), as well as babbled about: your disinclination to purchase a Trek bicycle, how you'd never use Basso, and how you'd think twice before buying a Cannondale--Reid, really, who gives a s__t?

I wasn't going to respond, but you engage in personal attacks while I stay on point. The point here is that Cannondale is using Basso to sell bikes and I wouldn't purchase one because of that fact alone. You response, "who gives a s__t." Well I would think Cannondale cares if people aren't buying bikes because a fraud is promoting them. The same goes for Trek, who BTW, is going to settle with Lemond and pay him big money. You can take that to the bank.


I babble, you're a heavyweight.:roflmao2:


Like I said, you come off as a bitter and angry guy; whether that's true is of no real concern to me. I offered that opinion because you enage people in a combative, adversarial, and mocking manner if they offer an opinion that conflicts with yours. What you have inaccurately interpreted as anger is, in reality, annoyance with your demeanor.

Back at ya. I respond on point, you engage in pointless insults.


But I will tell you, if given the opportunity, I wouldn't hire a spokesperson that treats conjecture as fact. If I were pressed, that is were I'd say that you and I diverge.

I don't even know if you know what you're talking about here, in what seems like an attack on me.

Anyway, there is no conjecture that Basso is a doper, that's a fact. If you're saying I'm treating conjecture as a fact, this illustrates the whole problem with you and a lot of people who inhabit these forums.

Well I would think Cannondale cares if people aren't buying bikes because a fraud is promoting them. The same goes for Trek, who BTW, is going to settle with Lemond and pay him big money. You can take that to the bank.Oh rly, I can take that to the bank?
The word "stooge" comes to mind. :roflmao2:
Anyway, there is no conjecture that Basso is a doper, that's a fact.No it isn't, you silly tit.

Oh rly, I can take that to the bank?
The word "stooge" comes to mind. :roflmao2:No it isn't, you silly tit.

Wow, more insults.

So they suspended Basso two years on conjecture?:roflmao2:

Why you defend these guys is beyond reason.

How 'bout you two put each other on ignore?

Wow, more insults.

So they suspended Basso two years on conjecture?:roflmao2:

Why you defend these guys is beyond reason.

You seem to be pretty smart, Reid. Why do you seem unable to understand the difference between "was a doper" and "is a doper"?


I mean, other than the fact that it would shatter your world view...

Yes, I know that.

I was alluding to David Clinger's comments about Floyd taking huge amounts of HGH. Is there a test for that yet?

After all of the crap he was taking with USPS he probably thought a patch or some topical T wasn't even cheating.

The idea he got railroaded is absurd. Him testing positive for Testosterone is the tip of the iceberg. Kinda like Al Capone getting nabbed for tax evasion.

Source?

You seem to be pretty smart, Reid. Why do you seem unable to understand the difference between "was a doper" and "is a doper"?


I mean, other than the fact that it would shatter your world view...

HCT was suspiciously high at the start of the Giro.

My world view? What sport are you following?

Go to the Daily Peloton Forums for a dose of clear thinking and reality.

Source?

No, you're right, FL has always been clean.:roflmao2:

What's he doing now, parking lot crits?

How's he placing?

OUCH!

No, you're right, FL has always been clean.:roflmao2:

What's he doing now, parking lot crits?

How's he placing?

OUCH!

I never stated that he was clean. I was just wondering whether you had any evidence to back up your statement about his time with Postal, or if you were just going on hearsay, rumors, and assumptions.

No, you're right, FL has always been clean.:roflmao2:

What's he doing now, parking lot crits?

How's he placing?

OUCH!

I have an idea. Lets take a baseball bat to your hip so you can get a hip replacement, and see how well you ride a bike.

I have an idea. Lets take a baseball bat to your hip so you can get a hip replacement, and see how well you ride a bike.

I have an idea. Use different language than an analogy of physical violence against me to make your point!

Back to Floyd's hip. It's not the limiting factor in his performance as he admits it was stronger and is giving him less pain than 2006.

I never stated that he was clean. I was just wondering whether you had any evidence to back up your statement about his time with Postal, or if you were just going on hearsay, rumors, and assumptions.

So are you stating he's dirty, or just doing some mental juggling act that you believe he's guilty based on a crystal ball?

You're another person that thinks he's a doper just because,but doesn't have any evidence?????

I have circumstantial evidence which is evidence and is readily available if you look for it.

So are you stating he's dirty, or just doing some mental juggling act that you believe he's guilty based on a crystal ball?

You're another person that thinks he's a doper just because,but doesn't have any evidence?????

I have circumstantial evidence which is evidence and is readily available if you look for it.

All I'm doing is questioning the sources of your evidence, which so far you have been unable to provide.

So they suspended Basso two years on conjecture?:roflmao2:

Why you defend these guys is beyond reason.
Basso gets suspended; ergo, there's no doubt in your mind he's a doper.
Armstrong has never been suspended; ergo, there's no doubt in your mind he's a doper.
You come off as being extremely unreasonable and/or extremely dishonest.