Great Lakes - Has Anyone Seen My Form?

It has become fully apparent that I have lost my form. I know it went missing sometime over the winter and I'm thinking (though not accusing) Psi might have taken it at the holiday party. :innocent:

Either he took it or it's fallen between the cushions on the couch or maybe I left it hanging off the back of one of my bar stools. Anyway, if you find it, please return it, there's a reward. :o

I am off about 20% on power compared to last year. About 290 watts last year, from the St. Pats ride 240 watts. Also, my pedal stroke is destroyed (even worse than usual) as normal from push platforms over the winter ... 26% pedal index last year, 21% now. Eek!

Data Value Unit
Duration 1:04:19
Sampling Rate 1 s
Cycling Efficiency 22.0 %

Energy Expenditure 916 kcal
Number of Heart Beats 10100 beats
Recovery -40 beats
Minimum Heart Rate 87 bpm
Average Heart Rate 157 bpm
Maximum Heart Rate 171 bpm
Standard Deviation 7.2 bpm

Minimum Speed 1.2 mph
Average Speed 19.8 mph
Maximum Speed 30.2 mph
Distance 21.3 miles
Odometer 38 miles

Minimum Cadence 30 rpm
Average Cadence 90 rpm
Maximum Cadence 112 rpm
Coasting Time 0:05:15 (8.2 %)
Coasting Distance 1.5 miles (6.9 %)

Minimum Altitude 761 ft
Average Altitude 810 ft
Maximum Altitude 863 ft
Ascent 381 ft
Descent 482 ft
VAM 355 ft/h

Minimum Power 2 Watts
Average Power 237 Watts
Average Power (0 W incl.) 217 Watts
Maximum Power 648 Watts
Pedaling Index Average 21 %
Pedaling Index Maximum 44 %
Left Right Balance Average L50 - 50R Left - Right
Left Right Balance Maximum L85 - 15R Left - Right


On the good news, I re-injured my knee slightly last year playing tennis. After that my power dropped on the right side to 53 left, 47 right. As the data shows now, I am back to 50:50 and the knee feels great.

If I could just get the 6# refrigerator off my back and find my form again ... all would be good. :)

Bah... you're still faster than me. :(

meh, it's only march. let's see how you're doing in july ;)

Average Speed 19.8 mph

Dude. It's March. Yesterday was windy as all get out. You're fine.

Sandbagging right now with that speed is useless.

And just for comparison, I was getting dropped by the very in-shape Psimet yesterday on a late afternoon 30 mile windy route. Thought I must be going 15 mph average. We got back in around 18.4 average, which was tons better than I had anticipated. So form schmorm. It's March.

There's no hope. Give up now.

I smell a set up ...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_x3-e9iiQqHo/R66sI2Gx10I/AAAAAAAAA8I/-veybrnfB1I/s1600/frazzCyclingToon.jpg

Average Speed 19.8 mph

Dude. It's March. Yesterday was windy as all get out. You're fine.

Sandbagging right now with that speed is useless.

And just for comparison, I was getting dropped by the very in-shape Psimet yesterday on a late afternoon 30 mile windy route. Thought I must be going 15 mph average. We got back in around 18.4 average, which was tons better than I had anticipated. So form schmorm. It's March.

I don't know what you're talking about....I seem to have no pulse.

CC...you do not lie well. Sandbagger.... ;)

CC's going to lose more form now that he's got to rush to Lance's side to tip the 7 Time Tour Winner in on how a fella old enough to draw Social Security can recover from a broken collar bone in time for the big hill climbing ride he's been looking forward to all season.

Average Speed 19.8 mph

:notamused:

http://www.stormtec.net/images/buy/sandbag_white_polypro.jpg

Ah come on guys . . . there's clearly an explanation:


http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-09/downhill-mountain-bike-snow.jpg

I like the fact that they bothered to put pedals on that thing.

You guys are a riot. I clearly demonstrate I'm 20% slower and I get the sandbag tag ... damn ... "Can't win for losing!" LOL.

You guys are a riot. I clearly demonstrate I'm 20% slower and I get the sandbag tag ... damn ... "Can't win for losing!" LOL.

just because your wattage is down doesn't necessarily mean you're slower, does it?

what was your avg. speed on last year's ride?

On flat ground, 20% drop in power corresponds to something closer to a 10% drop in speed.

Not that anyone asked.

Hey Niets, I didn't do last years ride so can't do a "back-back" comparison. If we ride Penny tonight I can do a more direct comparison.

Trust me ... I'm plenty slower ... Psi's gonna spank my fat, slow, old booty!

On flat ground, 20% drop in power corresponds to something closer to a 10% drop in speed.

Not that anyone asked.

not that i'm trying to debate because i clearly don't know enough about all of this, but couldn't things like position on bike, aero wheels/frame/misc. parts allow for lower power output for somewhat equivalent speed a la TT bikes?

not that i'm trying to debate because i clearly don't know enough about all of this, but couldn't things like position on bike, aero wheels/frame/misc. parts allow for lower power output for somewhat equivalent speed a la TT bikes?

Yes. Though CC is still riding the same sexy bike he always does, as far as i know.

not that i'm trying to debate because i clearly don't know enough about all of this, but couldn't things like position on bike, aero wheels/frame/misc. parts allow for lower power output for somewhat equivalent speed a la TT bikes?

Yes. I should have also said:


Assuming one is travelling fast enough that air resistance is the dominant form of drag, and that the aerodynamic profile and conditions are not changing between trials.

Or something like that.

This is an interesting detour ... I'm collecting data to elucidate. Back in a few. :)

OK, a nice detour but let's jump in.

Here is data from a 4/29 Tuesday night ride last year. I was recovering from torn meniscus in my right knee and hadn't ridden much in the prior 5 months.

Data Value Unit
Duration 1:29:26
Sampling Rate 1 s
Cycling Efficiency 21.9 %

Energy Expenditure 1302 kcal
Number of Heart Beats 13864 beats
Recovery -30 beats
Minimum Heart Rate 88 bpm
Average Heart Rate 155 bpm
Maximum Heart Rate 221 bpm
Standard Deviation 13.5 bpm

Minimum Speed 1.2 mph
Average Speed 19.5 mph
Maximum Speed 39.2 mph
Distance 29.1 miles
Odometer 253 miles

Minimum Cadence 29 rpm
Average Cadence 91 rpm
Maximum Cadence 120 rpm
Coasting Time 0:20:32 (23.0 %)
Coasting Distance 6.5 miles (22.2 %)

Minimum Altitude 689 ft
Average Altitude 787 ft
Maximum Altitude 853 ft
Ascent 1260 ft
Descent 1283 ft
VAM 845 ft/h

Minimum Power 1 Watts
Average Power 280 Watts
Average Power (0 W incl.) 210 Watts
Maximum Power 763 Watts
Pedaling Index Average 24 %
Pedaling Index Maximum 85 %
Left Right Balance Average L50 - 50R Left - Right
Left Right Balance Maximum L93 - 7R Left - Right

Significant numbers to me, avg hr 155, avg power 280 watts, avg speed 19.5.


Here is data from late in the season, same Tuesday night ride, September 30th. (lost 8 weeks with broken collarbone).

Data Value Unit
Duration 1:21:08
Number of Selections 2
Sampling Rate 1 s
Cycling Efficiency 24.9 %

Number of Heart Beats 12010 beats
Minimum Heart Rate 73 bpm
Average Heart Rate 148 bpm
Maximum Heart Rate 168 bpm

Minimum Speed 3.2 mph
Average Speed 21.1 mph
Maximum Speed 36.6 mph
Distance 28.5 miles
Odometer 1824 miles

Minimum Cadence 30 rpm
Average Cadence 93 rpm
Maximum Cadence 115 rpm
Coasting Time 0:14:36 (18.0 %)
Coasting Distance 5.0 miles (17.6 %)

Minimum Altitude 682 ft
Average Altitude 774 ft
Maximum Altitude 833 ft
Ascent 1161 ft
Descent 1142 ft

Minimum Power 1 Watts
Average Power 282 Watts
Average Power (0 W incl.) 226 Watts
Maximum Power 772 Watts
Pedaling Index Average 26 %
Pedaling Index Maximum 100 %
Left Right Balance Average L53 - 47R Left - Right
Left Right Balance Maximum L90 - 10R Left - Right


Here we have avg hr 148, avg power 282 watts, avg speed 21.1.

Now my recent St. Pats ride was avg hr 157, avg power 237 watts, avg speed 19.8.

I like to look at average hr and what power that hr generates. I call this roughly form.

So, to summarize:
avg hr: avg power

early season last year 155:280

late season 148:282

St. Pats (now) 157:237.

Yikes ... now do you see why I'm worried :(


PS, OK, I'll empty one of my sandbags ... lol


It's not quite as bad as it first looks. I am comparing power without accounting for drafting. The avg power numbers I have used don't include coasting, which you do much more in the pace line than you can riding solo (like the St. Pats ride).

So here is the comparison using 0 included average power numbers.

early season last year 155:210

late season 148:226

St. Pats 157:217


But, the St. Pats was only 20 miles while the Tuesday ride is 29 miles ... so I am overstating my St. Pats form.


So ... still worse but hopefully not a disaster. I think I'm ahead of last season (and over 10- lbs lighter than last year), but off of last year late season (with 5 more pounds [dropped one :)])


Boy you guys are never ever gonna ask me a data question are you ... LOL!

So here is the comparison using 0 included average power numbers.

You have to include the zeroes. Anything else is bogus.

That was one of my sandbags man ... ;)

You have to include the zeroes. Anything else is bogus.

Is that generally how average power's are measured?

i'd think the lower body weight helps to translate into lower power output required to maintain the same avg. speed.

Timmy
Well, it's often said that good riders don't pedal more ... they pedal harder. So in most of my training I like to look at the numbers without zeros. This better approximates race conditions.

For comparing pace line rides to non pace line rides, you need to include the zeros. Even then, it's not a great comparison because the aerobic strain is different, steady drag riding solo, peaky riding pace line.

Niets
In my case the higher weight is pure fat so negligible power effect. When someone is truly slim, weight can affect power output but I've got a long way to go ... hey ... is that fourth case of girl scout cookies for me too?

Niets
In my case the higher weight is pure fat so negligible power effect. When someone is truly slim, weight can affect power output but I've got a long way to go ... hey ... is that fourth case of girl scout cookies for me too?

Well, now i won't get lost next time i try to ride with you guys out there :o

Is that generally how average power's are measured?

I could average 600W for an hour if I'm allowed to drop the zeroes. Obviously the stress of intervals is different from a steady state effort. But you still can't compare them by just dropping the zeroes and averaging. They're just different types of efforts. Any effort to equate them will always leave out some important factor.

If you really want to track your fitness, the numbers you're comparing need to be from the same type of effort. Anyone can average a higher power for a steady effort versus intervals. That's why average power solo is higher than in a group. (included zeroes.)

So, CC, I'd say your fitness is right on track, actually a little better.

But if you really want to track it rigorously, you need to do a specific maximal test without concerns like a group or traffic. Those little variations can hide your true progress.

For example, every 6 weeks or so, I do a 20 minute maximal test. By the way, this is the single most painful part of my training plan. Anyway, if I've improved by 1 watt/week, then I would call that good news. But a 6 watt change obviously can easily be overwhelmed by external factors if you're not doing a controlled test.

Oh damn, I'm really geeking out here. Ok, that's enough.

Oh damn, I'm really geeking out here. Ok, that's enough.

I dig it.

For example, every 6 weeks or so, I do a 20 minute maximal test. By the way, this is the single most painful part of my training plan. Anyway, if I've improved by 1 watt/week, then I would call that good news. But a 6 watt change obviously can easily be overwhelmed by external factors if you're not doing a controlled test.


Yep, the 20 min. tests to see where your FTP is are pukingly good.

Yikes ... now do you see why I'm worried :(

Not really.


In my case the higher weight is pure fat so negligible power effect. When someone is truly slim, weight can affect power output but I've got a long way to go
Yeah, you're a regular Mama Cass there, tubby.


Gimme a break, man. We know you! You weigh about a buck 45. Fat if you're comparing to a Chinese gymnast, I guess.

I could average 600W for an hour if I'm allowed to drop the zeroes. Obviously the stress of intervals is different from a steady state effort. But you still can't compare them by just dropping the zeroes and averaging. They're just different types of efforts. Any effort to equate them will always leave out some important factor.

If you really want to track your fitness, the numbers you're comparing need to be from the same type of effort. Anyone can average a higher power for a steady effort versus intervals. That's why average power solo is higher than in a group. (included zeroes.)

So, CC, I'd say your fitness is right on track, actually a little better.

But if you really want to track it rigorously, you need to do a specific maximal test without concerns like a group or traffic. Those little variations can hide your true progress.

For example, every 6 weeks or so, I do a 20 minute maximal test. By the way, this is the single most painful part of my training plan. Anyway, if I've improved by 1 watt/week, then I would call that good news. But a 6 watt change obviously can easily be overwhelmed by external factors if you're not doing a controlled test.

Oh damn, I'm really geeking out here. Ok, that's enough.

i'm interested in learning more. where can i subscribe to your newsletter? ;)

Boy, you guys really want to peel back the onion ... OK. I can't help it, I'm an engineer. :lol:



So, CC, I'd say your fitness is right on track, actually a little better.

Actually, it's not better. If you really want to track fitness, Recursive's test is pretty good but this is better because it covers purse sprint, "surges" and functional threshold power (FTP). FTP is the whole enchilada ... oh great ... now I'm hungry.

To really track my performance I look at this and coordinate my training according to training stress score (TSS). Here is a link to get on board.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles.aspx



http://www.pbase.com/image/110573572/original.jpg

* ignore the high 1-2 second numbers ... data errors - trust me :)

The dotted line is last year Sep-Oct. Clearly my performance is down, and if I did watts/kg on the left axis, like i normally do, it would look even worse. :(

Ok, I'm convinced that your fitness is lower than last fall, but that's to be expected. :)

Do you have data from this point last year?

Recursive... yea but again, this is after recovering from 5 months nearly completely off last year ... to just pure slovenliness this year. Months of March compared, small data samples. I'm better this year ... but not by a lot. :(

http://www.pbase.com/image/110574591/original/jpghttp://www.pbase.com/image/110574591/original.jpg


So, better than last season (well I would hope so) but well off my peak ... like you said ... some to be expected - just more of a drop than I wanted. :cry:

this is the most pathetic sandbagging thread i have evar read through. well played CC. later.

this is the most pathetic sandbagging thread i have evar read through. well played CC. later.

LOL ... unbelievable ... lol

I'm better this year ... but not by a lot. :(

3 seconds better?





:innocent:

Oh man ... two belly LOL's in a row.

Here is the corrected power curve comparing my few rides so far with last year. The short term gap isn't quite as bad as it appears as I haven't been trying to hit big numbers there, I have been pushing mostly 85-90+% hr to build ftp. It still shows I'm off about 20% from my peak last year.

http://www.pbase.com/image/110578134/original.jpg

Damn! I must be really old school. No chart and graphs. No powerpoint presentation. :rolleyes:

Just my legs and lungs hurt -- must be spring :D

Damn! I must be really old school. No chart and graphs. No powerpoint presentation. :rolleyes:

Just my legs and lungs hurt -- must be spring :D

I've been riding without a computer all spring, i'm enjoying it.

I've been riding without a computer all spring, i'm enjoying it.

all four days of it? :P