Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Biking Community Tool

I saw this concept design that was developed to increase biking community and inspire more people to bike. I thought it was pretty interesting.

http://gelardi.com/portfolio/contrail/

I was also thinking that the chalk could help with traction, like in rock climbing? I don't know, maybe it'll get all gross and gummy in the rain.

how does it work?

I think bikesnobNYC noticed this a while back. Something is attached to the seat tube, if I remember correctly, and as the tire passes over or through it, the tire is covered in chalk dust. It's a nifty gadget, but I think the makers or marketers are kidding themselves if they think it's going to reclaim the roads for bikes or get more people riding. They aren't, however, kidding themselves if they think other people will think this and buy them. I think.

how exactly would leaving lines of chalk all over the streets increase community?

i could see lots of 6 year old girls with front baskets and streamers on the handlebars, going for that

i think this wold make your bike and legs messy. if your tire is rubbing in chalk, you are going to get covered in chalk dust.

I'd ride it if you promised not to laugh :D
edit: only if free
also, jackass on the yellow bike needs to put her helmet on. Why carry it if you're not going to wear it?

One more colorful accessory to add to my vibrant and perfectly matching tarck bike.

The idea is a fun reminder to encourage biking in a non-detrimental, safety promoting, visually stimulating way.

I think you guys are taking yourselves way to seriously to put something down with such good intents. If you think the items design is non-functional that's one thing, but to cast it aside as a 'hipster accessory' is a little excessive (especially because this hasn't been created yet). Why not encourage the idea with productive criticism? Instead you are trying to crush something that's trying to make your life safer and filled with bike friends?

i would be pretty pissed if some dork got chalk all over my tires.

also, I can't imagine how any city would allow these devices when you consider that people don't just ride on the road. There are a lot of urban cyclists in my town who cruise in and out of traffic, and ride on the sidewalk or across public property (park paths, hike and bike paths, etc)

I just imagine people starting to ***** when there are random colorful stripes all over the place.

I fail to see why dumping chalk on the ground is going to promote community, safety, and inspiration. does putting baseball cards in your spokes for the "chk-chk-chk-chk" sound advance the cause of carbon-footprint awareness and bring families together too?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm getting tired of what seems to be a new trend: marketing each new, and however nifty or interesting, significantly useless product as a piece of art, activism, or culture. These words and ideas are thrown around with too much abandon and I call bull****. It's a messy and superfluous albeit charming toy that, presumably, will be sold to make money and for no other reason. If that had been the thrust of the presentation, I'd have no problem with it.

Seems fun. Not sure what a layer of chalk would do to your rear traction (if anything) but it seems like a fun little idea.

yeah, definitely fun.
but they gotta drop the pretense about community building and inspiring others to ride.
that's just silly.

yeah, definitely fun.
but they gotta drop the pretense about community building and inspiring others to ride.
that's just silly.

+1.

Two other possible applications I could see:

1. City planners buying up a few hundred of these to give them out to bike commuters as a way of doing a bit of research on what routes will benefit the most from bike lanes or other cycling facilities.

2. Artistic cycling enthusiasts using them to add another visual element to the routine.

such open minds you lot are.

what's there to be "open" about?

and if you need an "open mind" to appreciate this chalk thing's ability to build communities, then it must not be very effective at achieving it's stated purpose of bringing the world together.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm getting tired of what seems to be a new trend: marketing each new, and however nifty or interesting, significantly useless product as a piece of art, activism, or culture. These words and ideas are thrown around with too much abandon and I call bull****. It's a messy and superfluous albeit charming toy that, presumably, will be sold to make money and for no other reason. If that had been the thrust of the presentation, I'd have no problem with it.

A nod to you, good sir.

Take a gander at some of the other concepts from this company. These people are silly geese.

Pissing in a urinal that has a fake tree trunk moulded into it has no effect on my pissing expirience. I could be just as happy leaking onto the floor (or into a hooker's mouth, TEE HEE).

Their toilet, showerhead, and landmine detector / marking device are kind of neat. I'll give them that.

A crystal hammer / vase is stupid and pointless. Art my ass.

I do think the chalk thing is interesting and could be a fun toy, but there's no way it will do much help to promote cycling in the same vein that a bunch of tire tracks in the dirt promote whatever vehicle they may have come from.

Yeah, i agree that it's not a serious marketable product. Designers have a tendency to word their work like it's the savior of the human race (As a designer myself, I should know). But I do appreciate it from a data visualization and mapping point.

There is no reason NOT to see this as a biking community tool (as it is advertised and explained at least). It DOES provide a new and vibrant means to visually perceive the presence of bikers in a specific area (biking community) if used as suggested. Seeing chalk about town could only serve to provide a means for participatory bikers to recognize and appreciate each others shared involvement in such an activity. It's understandably just another means of making cycling fun (like riding a fixed hub bicycle on city streets) and it does so in such a way as to involve members of the bicycling community. Many aspects of cycling are commercial (such as purchasing your bike in the first place) but I can't imagine this excluding it from positive recognition. It's definitely an act of preference but I see no reason it should be put down with such fervency... that's all.

and its all for nothing because THEY'RE NOT EVEN FOR SALE. womp..

p.s. i want one.

It's the self-important presentation I don't like.

You may be right, and it will be a great tool to raise awareness about cycling. On the other hand, it may just as easily have people taking us less seriously by making us all look like a bunch of kids with toys strapped to our bikes drawing chalk patterns on the road. I think the goal in bike activism is to secure our place on the roads as vehicles driven by responsible individuals, and this doesn't really seem like it will. In my humble opinion, the best way to do that, barring actual political activism, is to be out on the roads in greater numbers, acting like adults.

I personally don't get the purpose. How would chalk lines in the street promote bike use? It seems like it would just be another way for non-cyclists to just make fun of the bike community. I feel like there are better tools to better the community, not just making a bunch of chalk lines around.

The idea is okay, but the practicality of it all makes it useless.

seems pretty clear how this would work as a tool to promote the cycling community. i dont much like the idea of marketing to the fad either though.

the chalk lines will inform other bikers of commonly ridden paths, which could be really funny when you get the trick riders shredding it up in urban settings just laying chalk down all over different **** haha.

also, it could potentially serve as a non-official bike path. if a driver sees chalk on the road, they could be made more aware of the fact that riders use that road often, and therefore raise the drivers awareness of potential riders sharing the road.

on the other hand, this totally destroys the ability of a bike to be used as a get away vehicle.

edit: its obviously not for everyone, but i could see kids having fun with it at the very least.

another pro: think sky writing, but on the street!

JESUS LOVES YOU!

Chalk in my drivetrain :twitchy: :cry:

There is no reason NOT to see this as a biking community tool (as it is advertised and explained at least). It DOES provide a new and vibrant means to visually perceive the presence of bikers in a specific area (biking community) if used as suggested. Seeing chalk about town could only serve to provide a means for participatory bikers to recognize and appreciate each others shared involvement in such an activity. It's understandably just another means of making cycling fun (like riding a fixed hub bicycle on city streets) and it does so in such a way as to involve members of the bicycling community. Many aspects of cycling are commercial (such as purchasing your bike in the first place) but I can't imagine this excluding it from positive recognition. It's definitely an act of preference but I see no reason it should be put down with such fervency... that's all.

It's incredibly pretentious.

Your defense is filled with the same sort of grandiose bs. 'Participatory bikers'? 'new and vibrant means'? 'appreciate each other's shared involvement'? That's total art school 101 meaningfulness.

I understand the idea of leaving a trace of your presence, and seeing those lines threading through urban streets is neat in a 'chalk art' way. It's kind of clever and fun. It would also be fun to put on your kids' bikes and 'draw' shapes in a cul de sac or parking lot. But, that's about it.

Trying to call this some 'community building tool' is laughable in the face of what it takes - unglamorous, hard work - to really build a community.

also, it could potentially serve as a non-official bike path. if a driver sees chalk on the road, they could be made more aware of the fact that riders use that road often, and therefore raise the drivers awareness of potential riders sharing the road.

To be honest, if I was the average driver driving downtown or something and I saw a bunch of chalk lines, whether I knew they were from bikes or not, chances are I wouldn't put two and two together. Chalk on the ground doesn't necessarily say 'hey, watch your door as you open it.' I sort of get the idea, and I guess it would show the number of cyclists and where they ride, but to the average driver it's not going to matter much. It's chalk that's easily washed off by the elements, and unless you see a ton of people riding bikes with chalk lines, you're not going to put two and two together.

So many people have their own ways of getting around, that it would be hard to make it practical. I mean, you can't lay down a chalk line that says, 'easy way to get uptown!' or, 'my shortcut to city park!'. I understand the idea, but the practicality just doesn't seem like it's there.

Clearly a better solution is lots of fancy gps apps for the iPhone that relay routes through sms messaging. (joke)

good points all around.

JESUS LOVES YOU ALL!

i loves pretty colours, thumbs up!

It's incredibly pretentious.

Your defense is filled with the same sort of grandiose bs. 'Participatory bikers'? 'new and vibrant means'? 'appreciate each other's shared involvement'? That's total art school 101 meaningfulness.

I understand the idea of leaving a trace of your presence, and seeing those lines threading through urban streets is neat in a 'chalk art' way. It's kind of clever and fun. It would also be fun to put on your kids' bikes and 'draw' shapes in a cul de sac or parking lot. But, that's about it.

Trying to call this some 'community building tool' is laughable in the face of what it takes - unglamorous, hard work - to really build a community.

I suppose I never assumed this to be anything BUT an act of artistic expression. It can't be anything else but "clever and fun" "chalk art" for sure. I still don't see how that excludes it from being a viable tool for those participating ("participatory members") in appreciating each others involvement in biking. I don't see the difference between that and groups of riders meeting up to hang out, learn ways to ride, and do tricks with each other. It's a shared artistic experience. That's all. It's the "shared" part though that implies community to me i suppose. Not meaning it involves EVERYONE in the community (no critical mass or event will even do this) but brings at least some closer (through art i guess). Everyone in the "biking community" will have different interests, it's just promoting and sharing those interests that help build that community and while many aspects of building a bike community are obviously "hard work", some must be enjoyable and easy, right? Maybe I'm just crazy. That said, I don't even know if I would do this silly chalk thing.

so, meeting up with 3 or 4 friends for a 30 mile ride through the city is considered "building a cycling community?"

c'mon -- that's a bit a stretch. this chalk thing is a toy. just a toy [that doesnt even exist].

so, meeting up with 3 or 4 friends for a 30 mile ride through the city is considered "building a cycling community?"

I fully concede to the idea that I may be completely alone (and possibly crazy) in my opinion, but yes. As long as a stipulation of your ride was that others could see you and participate in future rides I can't see how this wouldn't be a possible "community" builder. For me at least, riding a fixed gear bike is partly about embracing new and fun ways to ride and hopefully even meet new people to share that with. The chalk idea may just be a silly toy (no doubt there) but it does seem to have a possible function of also
bringing bikers together in a fun activity (like long rides, trick competitions, and bike related gatherings). Rejecting it as a personal choice is more than reasonable but disregarding and bad mouthing it entirely can only serve to destroy any positive values it mat have. Accepting others ways of riding (however silly they may seem) IS a key to building a bike community.

i think this is really designed to be a lojack alternative.

GAY!




haha but seriously...this is pretty stupid...do they really think that the type of people to use these (*******s) ride legally and in the right place?


I bet if these were publicly available you'd see **** load of marks up and down block long stretches of suburban sidewalks, and a bunch of fixter hipsters swerving through traffic marking up the entire street on both sides of the road going one direction

I had a nightmare last night that I swerved left to get around a right hook then got creamed by someone who didn't stop at the stop sign. When the police showed up and the driver explained he was sorry for running the stop sign, the officer turned to me, pointed to my chalk line and said "son, what in the hell were you doing riding in the middle of the road like that? You're lucky I don't take you to jail for hitting this guy's car".

I no longer like this idea....

I'm more confused by the do-ability of the actual product. You know how much chalk it would take to lay down a visible strip for one mile? I mean a half inch by 5280 feet by, say .004" thick (that's ~0.1mm). That's ~125ci of chalk, or a 5x5x5" container for every mile traveled. I take a short, 5 mile ride almost every day, and 20+ on the weekends. A five mile ride requires me to carry a 3 gallon bucket of chalk. A 20+ would be over 10 gallons of chalk

That and I think a gallon container of chalk goes for about 15 bucks. Barring whether anyone wants to leave a chalk line wherever they go, and that the city doesn't declare it graffiti, and that I some how want to haul multiple painters buckets of chalk around with me, it's just stupid expensive to lay a line down everywhere you go.

This thread is ****ed-up stupid-******** to participate in anymore if you guys think it's pretentious to defend an idea that's trying to make things better. Whether or not it will or has is yet to be seen. Seeing as this is a CONCEPTUAL IDEA it's most likely all this arguing is for nothing(seemingly no one has caught onto this). Also from a design point, i'd like to ask you all- do you know what presentation is? I'm not industrial design major but i do know for sure when presenting a concept you avoid saying things like 'maybe, it's theoretical, this *could* promote biking' you present it strongly with empasis on logical conclusions from the concept or things that can be proven by tests with a prototype(hense the strong wording of his statements about growth of biking etc, the goal of a pitch is to SELL it to someone). It will be difficult to prove any of his assertions without a prototype or some more tests, thats obvious and true. However, if you had any knowledge of what you're looking at you'd understand it's a starting point, it's the begining of the process to making that an actuall item, much experimenting and possible re-designing would have to be done to make it a reality.

I understand you disagree with his logic, that's the issue right? 'This will NOT help make a community' Well, thats great for your opinion, but you can't prove that either. You may say 'Building a bike community takes hard work etc,' but does it not take all the help you can get as well? Seems to me that even if a jokey-mildly childish idea is drawing peoples eyes to the road, causing them to wonder a second: 'hey, whats that line, a bike? ah, maybe i need to ride the bike too' then its completely worth it. Sure, there will still be the guys in cars pissed off that bikes exist and are now leaving chalk on the ground (something parking meter people leave on your tires[must be totaly harmful stuff that chalk]) but so what, people looking for a reason to be pissed will always find it. If they've got a chip on their shoulder about biking, this will probably piss them off more, but so will more people using their bikes without chalk, so you can't please everyone.

I feel if you're gonna ***** about it come up with something better instead of being a clueless pessimist who represses original thought(yet lacks it themselves) and indulges a raging insecurity complex validated by tossing around elitist internet put-downs.

I don't think it's pretentious, I don't have a problem with the concept at all. I just don't think it's even slightly feasible.

It's just the physics of the dang thing: if you're going to lay down some material for miles at a time, it has to take up a volume. Unless you can knock that volume down by 10:1 or more the idea doesn't match the reality. You can't tell me you're going to lay down chalk uniformly at the thickness of a sheet of notebook paper shaved 10 times and still be able to see the thing. Dotted lines maybe? Even then it will only buy you so much.

Let's do this: take a 1/2" thick piece of chalk, measure it carefully, then draw a 5 foot line with it on asphalt that you can easily see, and measure it again. Figure that's as dense as chalk is going to get. Do that math for how many feet of chalk you need for a mile. The scale of this problem I think is pretty big.

This thread is ****ed-up stupid-******** to participate in anymore if you guys think it's pretentious to defend an idea that's trying to make things better. Whether or not it will or has is yet to be seen. Seeing as this is a CONCEPTUAL IDEA it's most likely all this arguing is for nothing(seemingly no one has caught onto this). Also from a design point, i'd like to ask you all- do you know what presentation is? I'm not industrial design major but i do know for sure when presenting a concept you avoid saying things like 'maybe, it's theoretical, this *could* promote biking' you present it strongly with empasis on logical conclusions from the concept or things that can be proven by tests with a prototype(hense the strong wording of his statements about growth of biking etc, the goal of a pitch is to SELL it to someone). It will be difficult to prove any of his assertions without a prototype or some more tests, thats obvious and true. However, if you had any knowledge of what you're looking at you'd understand it's a starting point, it's the begining of the process to making that an actuall item, much experimenting and possible re-designing would have to be done to make it a reality.

I understand you disagree with his logic, that's the issue right? 'This will NOT help make a community' Well, thats great for your opinion, but you can't prove that either. You may say 'Building a bike community takes hard work etc,' but does it not take all the help you can get as well? Seems to me that even if a jokey-mildly childish idea is drawing peoples eyes to the road, causing them to wonder a second: 'hey, whats that line, a bike? ah, maybe i need to ride the bike too' then its completely worth it. Sure, there will still be the guys in cars pissed off that bikes exist and are now leaving chalk on the ground (something parking meter people leave on your tires[must be totaly harmful stuff that chalk]) but so what, people looking for a reason to be pissed will always find it. If they've got a chip on their shoulder about biking, this will probably piss them off more, but so will more people using their bikes without chalk, so you can't please everyone.

I feel if you're gonna ***** about it come up with something better instead of being a clueless pessimist who represses original thought(yet lacks it themselves) and indulges a raging insecurity complex validated by tossing around elitist internet put-downs.

lol
too much coffee

if you want to build a cycling community, try a bike kitchen or co-op. build an organization that lobbies the city or state government to install more bike lanes or have a car-free sunday in the downtown area for people to ride sans traffic. Raise money to build a local velodrome or fund a training/racing program for kids like http://trackcats.org . Raise money to purchase lights wholesale and distribute them for free. Create an a non-profit that collects old bicycles and fixes them up and sells them for $50 to commuters and others that want to ride but do not have much money. Lobby your representatives to make bicycle purchases a tax write-off (as an alternative to driving and consuming foreign oil). Create a Velib bicycle-sharing program like in France. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Dumping chalk is simply an ineffective means to this end -- it would accomplish little. As someone that has been involved in organizing for about 15 years, I can tell you one of the first steps toward social progress is to stop kidding yourself with strategies that will be ineffective.

This thread is ****ed-up stupid-******** to participate in anymore if you guys think it's pretentious to defend an idea that's trying to make things better. Whether or not it will or has is yet to be seen. Seeing as this is a CONCEPTUAL IDEA it's most likely all this arguing is for nothing(seemingly no one has caught onto this). Also from a design point, i'd like to ask you all- do you know what presentation is? I'm not industrial design major but i do know for sure when presenting a concept you avoid saying things like 'maybe, it's theoretical, this *could* promote biking' you present it strongly with empasis on logical conclusions from the concept or things that can be proven by tests with a prototype(hense the strong wording of his statements about growth of biking etc, the goal of a pitch is to SELL it to someone). It will be difficult to prove any of his assertions without a prototype or some more tests, thats obvious and true. However, if you had any knowledge of what you're looking at you'd understand it's a starting point, it's the begining of the process to making that an actuall item, much experimenting and possible re-designing would have to be done to make it a reality.

I understand you disagree with his logic, that's the issue right? 'This will NOT help make a community' Well, thats great for your opinion, but you can't prove that either. You may say 'Building a bike community takes hard work etc,' but does it not take all the help you can get as well? Seems to me that even if a jokey-mildly childish idea is drawing peoples eyes to the road, causing them to wonder a second: 'hey, whats that line, a bike? ah, maybe i need to ride the bike too' then its completely worth it. Sure, there will still be the guys in cars pissed off that bikes exist and are now leaving chalk on the ground (something parking meter people leave on your tires[must be totaly harmful stuff that chalk]) but so what, people looking for a reason to be pissed will always find it. If they've got a chip on their shoulder about biking, this will probably piss them off more, but so will more people using their bikes without chalk, so you can't please everyone.

I feel if you're gonna ***** about it come up with something better instead of being a clueless pessimist who represses original thought(yet lacks it themselves) and indulges a raging insecurity complex validated by tossing around elitist internet put-downs.

Pure gold. This is everything I love about internet forums.

Before you get to psychological studies and test products and all that stuff, any designer should be asking themselves some really basic questions;

1: is what I'm trying to do, regardless of the engineering, physically possible?
2: is it going to cost something reasonable?
3: are there safety or legality issues?
4: is there a market?

These are the glaring questions anyone looking to put money into development should, and most likely will ask. I mean to be honest, not offensive.

From my perspective, it gets a pass on #2, #3 and #4, at least initially (the part itself seems like it could be made relatively easily, and as of yet there's no real laws against chalking up streets, and if there are safety issues with chalking a tire you'll find out in testing, but it seems ok). Depsite some people not liking it there is surely a niche market for this sort of thing. The fixie community is a pretty good target these days. IE there is a market. Whether that market wants it or not is what you determine later.

#1: no pass, for the arguments I posted previously. And instead of crying about stifling art and all this stuff, it might be a good idea to either expirament around and get some idea of the scale of the problem, try to come up with alternatives or solutions so the idea can proceed.

I'm not trying to be a d'ck, I'm trying to be steer the idea to ask the questions that are, inevitably, going to get asked.

Really though, you can either cry about it on the internet, or you can ask these really obvious questions yourself.

I can sit around and photoshop pictures of guys and gals rocketing around in their totally sweet anti-gravity slippers all day long. I can write copy explaining all the benefits. It doesn't mean anyone should give a crap without being allowed to ask "soo.....how do you do the anti-gravity thing?" And if I don't have an answer? I guess I can tell myself they don't like my idea because their too negative, and just want to stifle creativity at every turn. Those jerks.

Then I can make the incredibly assuming remark that anyone who questions the obvious greatness has never designed anything before in their life, never indulged in art of any kind, and is totally close minded to anything outside of the box.

I'm not a big fan of dumping chalk everywhere just because. If you want to use it as part of a game with friends or to evaluate commuting patterns or draw, I don't really mind. But using it indiscriminately seems like, I don't know, driving a car around with your horn blaring.

The OP mentioned rock climbing--when climbing outdoors, the general rule is to use chalk only when you need it. It detracts from the whole nature thing when people see chalk all over rocks and trees and in the dirt. It also leaves long streaks of white when it gets wet (unless it rains hard enough for long enough that it all gets washed away). All of this threatens access. Chalking up city streets is a little different, but I think the same principle of utility should prevail.

As for drivers seeing the lines and being more aware of cyclists--I think watching the proverbial road for cyclists currently on that road would be more better and more effective than literally watching the pavement for lines made by fewer riders who are or previously were on that road and extrapolating that cyclists may be somewhere nearby.

Also, at least people who don't like these things will be able to avoid those who use them.

That is, IF these things ever become commercially available.

This thread is ****ed-up stupid-******** to participate in anymore if you guys think it's pretentious to defend an idea that's trying to make things better. Whether or not it will or has is yet to be seen. Seeing as this is a CONCEPTUAL IDEA

Ideas aren't good just because they exist. Some of them suck. You need to be able to withstand critique without folding or flipping out and throwing tantrums if you want to change the world.

Besides, I'm bagging on the pretension. Cellphones have arguably changed the entire world, 'sense of community', 'created non-linear relationship', etc. yadda yadda. The inventors of the phone didn't sell it with wordy blah blah, they pitched it as 'a phone you carry with you' and let people work it out from there.

I bet you money the longer and wordier the sales pitch about how much any thing will change the world is inversely proportional to how much it actually does.

^^+1

lol
Dumping chalk is simply an ineffective means to this end -- it would accomplish little. As someone that has been involved in organizing for about 15 years, I can tell you one of the first steps toward social progress is to stop kidding yourself with strategies that will be ineffective.

I agree totally. Mere chalk drawings would never bring about the inspiration for bike utopia. It would never pass bike friendly legislation. It wouldn't increase the presence of bike lanes or boost bike safety (not directly at least). But it COULD provide a source of harmless, bike-related fun for some obviously short period of time. I thought we were supposed to encourage that? Is it not possible that fun can encourage strength in a "biking community"? I do have deep respect for your activism and would never discourage it (...) but it does not take fifteen years experience to see the effectiveness of FUN in building community. It has always played a role in biking. It played a major role in putting track bikes on the street (especially as of late). It is a piece (or even a piece of a piece), like activism is a piece. Let's not discourage any piece, no matter how small and silly it seems...

I agree totally. Mere chalk drawings would never bring about the inspiration for bike utopia. It would never pass bike friendly legislation. It wouldn't increase the presence of bike lanes or boost bike safety (not directly at least). But it COULD provide a source of harmless, bike-related fun for some obviously short period of time. I thought we were supposed to encourage that? Is it not possible that fun can encourage strength in a "biking community"? I do have deep respect for your activism and would never discourage it (...) but it does not take fifteen years experience to see the effectiveness of FUN in building community. It has always played a role in biking. It played a major role in putting track bikes on the street (especially as of late). It is a piece (or even a piece of a piece), like activism is a piece. Let's not discourage any piece, no matter how small and silly it seems...

Well yes, if we toss a ball back and forth between people, then that's harmless short fun but it leads to friendship and community and good neighborhoods and stable nations and wonderful culture and world peace?!?! I mean, that ball. It's not just a ball. It's a community building tool. Don't tease my ball. It could save the planet.

;)

Well yes, if we toss a ball back and forth between people, then that's harmless short fun but it leads to friendship and community and good neighborhoods and stable nations and wonderful culture and world peace?!?! I mean, that ball. It's not just a ball. It's a community building tool. Don't tease my ball. It could save the planet.

;)

You win :)

You win :)

Yes he wins by discouraging help.