Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - New ideas for Leader bike for 2009 and 2010

Hello Bike Forum Members,

Leader Bike is looking at new things for the coming months and year. I was instructed by Leader Bike to ask some questions and get some opinions on the new product line.

Leader Bike is working on a project that will involve a steel 4130 double butted and heat treated frame. Top tube and down tube will have a special tear drop with octagonal shape. We will post images later. What we want to ask is your opinions on these options.

1. gussets or not? they would be welded next to the head tube and on the top of top tube and bottom of down tube.

2. frames will be made for 1" head tube. Aside from the lugged steel forks should we offer a 1" threaded carbon fork?

3. should we make any forks in thread less?

4. should our frames support only the A. NJS type crown or use the B. standard crown to fit almost any 1" headset?
(we have access to high end NJS headsets so there will be no problem there)

5. should we keep our A. 725TR style track geometry or move to the B. 720TR road geometry?

6. should we do the A. many color options as a preorder sale or B. start selling the frames when they arrive.

7. aside from standard black and white jewel metallic paint. What other colors do you like? green, blue, red, yellow, tan (wheat), emerald, etc.

7. do you prefer us to offer A. special metallic and glitter style paint jobs over the B. standard paint types?

8. would you rather have A. standard liquid clear coat or B. powder coat?

9 ghosted decals or no decals?

10. what is the max tire size you would be looking for?

I will have more questions later concerning our new crank sets, bars, and other parts that will be available. soon you can order your complete bike with your options choices from Leader direct.

We want to make Leader Bike your first and only choice in quality, looks, and price.

I know these are a lot of questions. Any comment is appreciated.

Brian

im in before someone suggests quality.

i think something for me to test would be a good idea. i want to know whats really going on myself.

the pre order color choices seemed to be a hit so i would go for that.

and as a standard color wheat is always pretty classy so that would be a good option.

No gussets or waterbottle mounts. Leave the tubing nice and clean.

I'm only interested in threadless, but I know a lot of people on here like threaded.

I probably would only consider a steel fork. Carbon doesn't seem to go with a steel bike like this in my mind.

No decals or any branding.

Max tire size most on here use is 28mm width. 25mm seems to be pretty standard for bikes that are being used around town.

Use a standard crown that will accept ISO threaded headsets.

integrated seatclamp in the seat tube would be nice.

Just my .02

What about making the threadless fork for ISO headset and the threaded for NJS? Leader Bike can offer both fork options in steel and carbon. I am thinking chromolly as the material for the carbon fork steer tube.

Brian

1. YES gussets are cool and make for a stronger bike for doing fun stuff on!

2. 1 1/8 steer tube for sure...lets you use larger tubing for tt/dt

3. yes threadless! function>form

4. I don't know what this means...but I like King headsets so you should allow this

5. 73ish Seat Tube and 75ish degree head tube

6. Do another preorder...maybe more crazy color choices though...custom multi colors (like pattern) maybe? chrome finish, etc....animal prints?

7. I like old school NJS style patterns...but for solid colors, just a good smooth metallic w/ lots of clear coat for good luster and depth

7. do you prefer us to offer A. special metallic and glitter style paint jobs over the B. standard paint types? YES

8. Real clear coat makes for a much more beautiful coat of paint.

9/ stickers over paint so they can be removed...or maybe sticker pack w/ the bike so owner can apply them at their discretion

10. 32c all around for road riding!



PM me or email me if you want more of my ideas lol...i have my ideal bike built in my mind for street riding and it's a killer idea

I guess you are leaning to make a fgfs frame.

colors, strength, no decals, some good geometry, wider tire clearance. like a 32

-No gussets
-Threadless please (1 1/8) preferably
-Make the frame clean, no cable mounts, water bottle mount, etc
-make the rear fit atleast a 700x28
-Nice and tight geometry no ugly up-slope
-Don't do the logo on it, I'd love to see it with removable sticker logos.
-I really think a lot of people are swaying away from the threaded, though it looks good and all function over fashion!
-I'd like to see a light grey color (similar to bareknuckles)
-Make carbon (wound up fork :P) an option but i'm alright with a steel fork

celeste for sure..yea celeste..with optional bianchi pista concept stickers..black fork as well!!

http://i42.tinypic.com/6r4xg6.jpg

***ignore the waterbottle**


this is a general idea of what I would want to see


-straight bladed, thick legged fork for stiffness and strength jumping curbs
-big oversized tubes for combating dents from cabs and phantom doors
-steep headtube for snappy steering
-lax seat tube angle for wheelies! (also just more comfortable position)
-tucked up rear wheel
-triple triangle for style points!
-longer top tube, designed to be used w/ 50mm stem (bmx stem/bars for example) gives barspin clearance...effective cockpit will be same length as a normal sized frame


I think this bike would be a blast to ride, it would look incredible, and be extremely effective for daily use in the city for commuting/courier use

http://i42.tinypic.com/6r4xg6.jpg

***ignore the waterbottle**


this is a general idea of what I would want to see


-straight bladed, thick legged fork for stiffness and strength jumping curbs
-big oversized tubes for combating dents from cabs and phantom doors
-steep headtube for snappy steering
-lax seat tube angle for wheelies! (also just more comfortable position)
-tucked up rear wheel
-triple triangle for style points!
-longer top tube, designed to be used w/ 50mm stem (bmx stem/bars for example) gives barspin clearance...effective cockpit will be same length as a normal sized frame


I think this bike would be a blast to ride, it would look incredible, and be extremely effective for daily use in the city for commuting/courier use I am reading all this very closely. Now I am thinking maybe we should do two models. one for the type Ian wants with gussets and everything else to make a super strong frame with bmx style fork (maybe frame in steel and fork in aluminum) and make the tear drop steel frame as clean as possible. What about the head tube? I feel maybe the 1-1/8" will not be as sellable as the 1". There would be no problem offering both thread less and threaded but will need to be 1". I have seen many 1-1/8" steel frames fail in the market. also there really aren’t many oversize tube sets other than mtb style steel frames but they are very heavy. I know Leader was talking about keeping weight of the frame around 4.5lb to 5.5lb.

Brian

the pre order color choices seemed to be a hit so i would go for that.

and as a standard color wheat is always pretty classy so that would be a good option.In the works but this time more metalic style paint jobs.

I am reading all this very closely. Now I am thinking maybe we should do two models. one for the type Ian wants with gussets and everything else to make a super strong frame with bmx style fork (maybe frame in steel and fork in aluminum) and make the tear drop steel frame as clean as possible. What about the head tube? I feel maybe the 1-1/8" will not be as sellable as the 1". There would be no problem offering both thread less and threaded but will need to be 1". I have seen many 1-1/8" steel frames fail in the market. also there really aren’t many oversize tube sets other than mtb style steel frames but they are very heavy. I know Leader was talking about keeping weight of the frame around 4.5lb to 5.5lb.

Brian



For the frame design that I am looking for, weight is not the biggest issue. The oversize tubes that VOLUME uses on their cutter are very desirable. They are heavy, yes, but they are very strong. This type of strength is great for those times when you take a nasty spill or when you lock up 10+ times a day on signs and bike racks.

Also, STEEL is essential. Aluminum, I find, is harsh on the streets and fatigues much easier than steel does. My 725TR has held up immaculately, especially against the abuse I have thrown at it, but I do baby it in many situations, to prevent unnecessary damage to the tubing. I am also currently running a steel fork, which has made it a bit more comfortable on the street. I trust steel much more than aluminum to ride around on after denting.


The bike I imagine will be popular with the hip crowd due to style, the practical crowd due to it's vast array of applications, and the couriers because it's low priced, rides like a banshee and most of all, holds up to the abuse of the daily grind.

This is the type of bike that you can ride to work in style on every day, lock up around town on the weekend and win alleycat races on every so often.






EDIT

Oh and in regards to 1 1/8" threadless. This is the most popular size IMO due to availability of replacement forks (some people will want to run aftermarket forks inevitably) and also stems. You can find any length, any rise stem in 1 1/8 steer tube.

Also, the larger the headtube, the more surface area to allow for larger diameter down and top tubes

I guess you are leaning to make a fgfs frame.

colors, strength, no decals, some good geometry, wider tire clearance. like a 32How do you all feel about the 725TT geometry. I know there is a small slope going down to the the seat tube.

No slope! I get annoyed when I see the slope on my 725.

Pursuit style geometry is definitely the most appealing


I kind of have this pet peeve w/ my 725TR where I wish the top tube was connected higher on the seat tube to give an even better aesthetic


Hell, if you guys remade the 725TR geometry in a steel oversize tube bike, i'd buy it in a heartbeat...i jsut feel so bad locking my poor 725tr w/ custom color up to street signs on windy days...it's held up well so far, but it's only a matter of time before it gets a nasty scratch in it

Ok from what I understand here so far. Two models:

Frame A. Pursuit style geometry Steel 4130 DB frame (4.5lb to 5.5lb) with tear drop tube sets, fully horizontal even top tube, integrated seat clamp on frame. many desirable paint options with clear coat powder coat finish, fit for sure from a 700 x 23 to 28 tire, 1" head tube to fit both thread less and threaded forks.

Frame B Steel 4130 DB frame with oversize tube sets, 1-1/8" head tube to fit strong BMX style fork or any other fork with 1-1.8" steer tube and proper length and rake, gussets all over, maybe even dirt jump style dropouts, geometry will be the same as bike A.

If I missed anything let me know.

Brian

Ok from what I understand here so far. Two models:

Frame A. Pursuit style geometry Steel 4130 DB frame (4.5lb to 5.5lb) with tear drop tube sets, fully horizontal even top tube, integrated seat clamp on frame. many desirable paint options with clear coat powder coat finish, fit for sure from a 700 x 23 to 28 tire, 1" head tube to fit both thread less and threaded forks.

Frame B Steel 4130 DB frame with oversize tube sets, 1-1/8" head tube to fit strong BMX style fork or any other fork with 1-1.8" steer tube and proper length and rake, gussets all over, maybe even dirt jump style dropouts, geometry will be the same as bike A.

If I missed anything let me know.

Brian


triple triangle rear! i <3 that design even if it's not the best in theory...


The angles on the B bike are important...around 73 degree seat tube, 75 degree headtube, w/ a slightly long top tube length too...coupled w/ a short stem, it will equal the same cockpit length, but give clearance for tricks.

if you're doing pursuit geometry, the frames from hunter and DAB (http://www.flickr.com/photos/go-hardt/sets/72157600326178520/) are a nice example. wishbone seatstays, shaped aero downtube, 1" threaded fork, tight wheelbase with clearance for 25s max. make the online geometry page updated for each year, if it's going to change.

if you're doing a trick/abuse bike, keep the gussets and burly features on it; don't let them migrate to the other bikes.

If you wanna sell a lot of bikes just duplicate the old cannondale track frames exactly. There was talk of this on another forum. They would sell like hot cakes as long as no changes were made.

Like so:
http://www.scrimg.com/scrimg/images/G2D9C1C5R1I2H3O7W2U9T2T6J3A2Y32330.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2ObfKJCggeA/SJWCagK9KQI/AAAAAAAABGM/BCCyInklChY/s400/8742_1.JPG

I don't think cannondale would appreciate that.

And duplicating the look doesn't make it cannondale quality.

+1 on the cannondale track replicas

prepare to pay for those hand finished welds.

MIG welds(steel) are alot cleaner than TIG welds(alu),so no worries about the welds.

i think you've missed the point— the early 90s cannondale track couldn't be 'cloned' in steel, and all of those cannondales have alu tubing and hand finished welds. could you copy the geometry? sure. would it ride the same? unlikely.

there are plenty of nice track frames out there using steel tubesets to serve as an example. while it would be awesome to have caad3 track clones from BD, that's not really their pricepoint (or hasn't been so far).

never said to copy it in steel, just throwing out a suggestion

<====Votes for a GT-B replica:thumb:

I like the idea of a clean frame with maybe one bottle mount with the option of threaded or threadless forks. Powder coated, and I also like the option to have different color schemes (headtube/downtube in alt. colors). Let's not make this a big BMX bike.

I like the idea of a clean frame with maybe one bottle mount with the option of threaded or threadless forks. Powder coated, and I also like the option to have different color schemes (headtube/downtube in alt. colors). Let's not make this a big BMX bike.



why not? haha

everyone loves a bike you can toss around

http://i42.tinypic.com/6r4xg6.jpg

***ignore the waterbottle**


this is a general idea of what I would want to see


-straight bladed, thick legged fork for stiffness and strength jumping curbs
-big oversized tubes for combating dents from cabs and phantom doors
-steep headtube for snappy steering
-lax seat tube angle for wheelies! (also just more comfortable position)
-tucked up rear wheel
-triple triangle for style points!
-longer top tube, designed to be used w/ 50mm stem (bmx stem/bars for example) gives barspin clearance...effective cockpit will be same length as a normal sized frame


I think this bike would be a blast to ride, it would look incredible, and be extremely effective for daily use in the city for commuting/courier use


<====Votes for a GT-B replica:thumb:

+1. id like to see it as a affinity/GTB mixture

+1. id like to see it as a affinity/GTB mixtureMaybe we should make three styles. if we were to make the geometry 73 in the back and 74 in the front with a downward slope, do feel we should do this on the bmx style frame? This project could be reality very soon. anybody feel free to chime in. Leader wants to get these models made soon.

Brian

Maybe we should make three styles. if we were to make the geometry 73 in the back and 74 in the front with a downward slope, do feel we should do this on the bmx style frame? This project could be reality very soon. anybody feel free to chime in. Leader wants to get these models made soon.

Brian
Yes!



However, I love the feel of my 725TR w/ 75 degree head tube and 35mm rake fork...the handling is incredible!

Great questions!

JMHOs:

Kill the gusset idea. Look at what's been proven to work. 99% of the bikes you see posted in here aren't gusseted, and they hold up to the abuse of messengers and guys that like to do tricks, just fine.

Pursuit geometry???!!!! Again, how many people do you see riding a bike with that type of geometry on a daily basis? Not many. Just stick with flat top tubes and maybe, the slightest slope towards the headtube. Yes, there is a market for pursuit bikes, and it's a very small one. Doesn't seem like a sound business decision to put money into new designs that limit their marketability.

Many color choices is a good thing! I'm just not too sure about the glittery, sparkly stuff.............. White, black, red, yellow and blue as standard colors, and all of the preorder colors as small($10-20) upgrade colors. I am going for paint, but powder is so darned indestructible, but much more expensive!

As others have stated before, put the stickers over the paint/powdercoat so they are easily removable! Although, I'd rather see a sticker pack sent with the bike and let me choose where and how many I want to put on my bike! You never know, a lot of them may end up on people's cars! That's good, free advertising for you guys! :thumb:

1 1/8 Headtubes! There are only a handful, if that, of headsets for 1" headtubes. The amount of stems available is even crappier! NO INTEGRATED HEADSETS!!!!! There are just so many more options available with the threadless type! Sweet Acros', Kings, etc. The idea for the threaded headsets is fine for a retro bike, but then it will have a more classic geometry and styling, and aerotubes don't fit that description. It'll end up looking out of place and disjointed!

The colors need to be simple and appeal to many people. Crazy paint schemes will be a seller for a few, but they won't appeal to most. If you pick really nice shades of simple solid colors they will sell like crazy.

The bareknuckle is an awesome style of frame. If you could do something similarly styled, for less coin, you would have a huge market.

Simple is good.


http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9611/colors.jpg

I like Ian's idea of the frame, the Cannondale replicas would also be really nice!

why not? haha

everyone loves a bike you can toss around

That's true, and that's how come steel frames. I just get the image in my head of a frame that's the worst of both worlds. You'll get that gussets, thick tubing, and extremely reinforced, utilitarian look of a BMX with the ungainliness and inherent fragility of a 700c frameset. Prolly is already dropping a FGFS frame, and it looks like poop. I wouldn't commute on it, and I'm sure a lot of folks share my sentiments. I'd like a frame that's nimble, fast, durable for locking up, and looks elegant. I'm sure they can make it able to barspin, but it just sounds too nice so far to shoehorn into such a niche market.

engineer a frame solution so it becomes impossible for people to do this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3372/3327023865_17f3bbd8a0.jpg

in all honesty i think you are doing fine with the current lineup.

either keep prices as low as possible, or offer as many colors as possible. i would buy a 725tr frame if i wasn't absolutely thrilled with my kilo. or, if the 725tr came in more colors, or if it was a little cheaper with the current color selection, or if it was lighter. i'm a lightweight so i don't need a strong freestyle type frame. i like aluminum bikes but i don't see people buying into a lot more choices, they already have a ton when it comes to steel and your lineup between the 20,21,25, and 35 is enough choice. just need more colors.

Great questions!

JMHOs:

Kill the gusset idea. Look at what's been proven to work. 99% of the bikes you see posted in here aren't gusseted, and they hold up to the abuse of messengers and guys that like to do tricks, just fine.

Pursuit geometry???!!!! Again, how many people do you see riding a bike with that type of geometry on a daily basis? Not many. Just stick with flat top tubes and maybe, the slightest slope towards the headtube. Yes, there is a market for pursuit bikes, and it's a very small one. Doesn't seem like a sound business decision to put money into new designs that limit their marketability.

Many color choices is a good thing! I'm just not too sure about the glittery, sparkly stuff.............. White, black, red, yellow and blue as standard colors, and all of the preorder colors as small($10-20) upgrade colors. I am going for paint, but powder is so darned indestructible, but much more expensive!

As others have stated before, put the stickers over the paint/powdercoat so they are easily removable! Although, I'd rather see a sticker pack sent with the bike and let me choose where and how many I want to put on my bike! You never know, a lot of them may end up on people's cars! That's good, free advertising for you guys! :thumb:

1 1/8 Headtubes! There are only a handful, if that, of headsets for 1" headtubes. The amount of stems available is even crappier! NO INTEGRATED HEADSETS!!!!! There are just so many more options available with the threadless type! Sweet Acros', Kings, etc. The idea for the threaded headsets is fine for a retro bike, but then it will have a more classic geometry and styling, and aerotubes don't fit that description. It'll end up looking out of place and disjointed!



IMO, your opinion is a little out of whack here for a couple of reasons...no offense or anything but I have some counterpoints I'd like to make.

1. Gussets: Many guys are breaking their bikes, especially the hardcore trick guys. I realize that the leader bike will probably have higher quality than some of the bikes that are commonly broken (SE frames) but still...Gussets weigh very little and won't be hurting anybody.

2. Pursuit Geometry on the street: I think the lack of pursuit frames on the street is a direct result of availability. There are the Affinity cycles, which are quite expensive, and then old used pursuit frames, which were rare AND expensive. There is no inexpensive one on the market.

That said, I don't think the frame should have very aggressive pursuit stance, just a minor drop, (sub 5 degree) from the seat tube to the head tube.

3. Glittery paint jobs WILL be popular! I'm very confident of this. Again, bikes are rarely offered in off the wall paint schemes, which is why many people don't opt for them!

i would like to see a model that is more like the bareknuckle. Tight geo, simple, classy... but make it less $$ :D

i would like to see a model that is more like the bareknuckle. Tight geo, simple, classy... but make it less $$ :D


Only if it has a better looking fork! haha

IMO, your opinion is a little out of whack here for a couple of reasons...no offense or anything but I have some counterpoints I'd like to make.

1. Gussets: Many guys are breaking their bikes, especially the hardcore trick guys. I realize that the leader bike will probably have higher quality than some of the bikes that are commonly broken (SE frames) but still...Gussets weigh very little and won't be hurting anybody.

2. Pursuit Geometry on the street: I think the lack of pursuit frames on the street is a direct result of availability. There are the Affinity cycles, which are quite expensive, and then old used pursuit frames, which were rare AND expensive. There is no inexpensive one on the market.

That said, I don't think the frame should have very aggressive pursuit stance, just a minor drop, (sub 5 degree) from the seat tube to the head tube.

3. Glittery paint jobs WILL be popular! I'm very confident of this. Again, bikes are rarely offered in off the wall paint schemes, which is why many people don't opt for them!

I can definitely appreciate the counterpoints, as this healthy discussion is how products get better and people can share ideas! Now my turn! haha

While I do agree that some bike need gusseting, if you look at the leader desings as they currently stand, the toptube and downtube join before the neck, effectively acting as their own gusset. Adding additional gussets would make it look too "bulky"?

Ahhhhh the old, it's not available, therefore nobody can effectively buy it, argument. I call it the "Field of Dreams" argument, build it and they will come. I do believe that if the market existed and if it were really in high demand, it would have been done already! However, we do agree that a little more aggressive geometry could be helpful, and we agree that the it would be a minor slope, <5 degs.

I'm not saying don't offer the glitter, just not as one of the "standard" colors. Make them an upgraded color and charge $10-20 more those colors.

I can definitely appreciate the counterpoints, as this healthy discussion is how products get better and people can share ideas! Now my turn! haha

While I do agree that some bike need gusseting, if you look at the leader desings as they currently stand, the toptube and downtube join before the neck, effectively acting as their own gusset. Adding additional gussets would make it look too "bulky"?

Ahhhhh the old, it's not available, therefore nobody can effectively buy it, argument. I call it the "Field of Dreams" argument, build it and they will come. I do believe that if the market existed and if it were really in high demand, it would have been done already! However, we do agree that a little more aggressive geometry could be helpful, and we agree that the it would be a minor slope, <5 degs.

I'm not saying don't offer the glitter, just not as one of the "standard" colors. Make them an upgraded color and charge $10-20 more those colors.



Fair enough, I agree with most of these things.

I think when it comes down to it, a ot of people are resistant to the pursuit geometry because they're afraid that it will be too hard to ride when they finally get it, but most people have never ridden steep/pursuit geometry before. Either way, with the small slope like that, it would hardly be difficult to set it up to fit just fine.


I drew up the design I posted in bikecad with specific measurements and angles in mind...not just arbitrary features to make it look cool. It features all of the things I initially mentioned in my first post and it looks damn good to me haha

Only if it has a better looking fork! haha

That's funny, I think the bareknuckle has the best looking fork of any steel frame I have seen. That's one of the reasons I like them so much.

dont bother w/ NJS if you're not an NJS company, its pointless to narrow it down to a field that you're not aiming at, by allowing a wider range and more common styles you're bound to make more ppl happy!

you guys should sell a complete build around the 3 speed fixed sturmey archer hub that is about to be released. an aluminum bike similar to the jamie roy, and put fat slicks on it. the perfect urban commuter fixed.

I'd like to see a triple triangle frame. iansmash's idea is pretty sweet.
mbhakti's color scheme is good to.

Maybe ditch the idea of trying to shape the top tube and downtube and use a higher quality steel like let's say tange prestige.

Don't make it compatible with only one type of crown. From where I came from, it's been viewed as a bad business move to make things proprietary.

Unless you have a monopoly like Cisco does then it's all gravy.

I'd like to seem something similar to the curves of this beautiful Yamaguchi. Though I doubt the price range you are aiming at will be met.

http://velospace.org/files/DSC01060.jpg

As far as paint schemes, I agree you should offer the popular base colors like black, red, blue, green, yellow, etc. Then option for some flakes/sparkles can be added for a few extra bucks. Decals should not be under the clear coat or better yet as someone mentioned above, leave the decals aside for the owner to place anywhere they would like.

I'd really like a complete bike, something in between bikes direct and big name companies as far as price/specs go.

make a triple triangle/ gt-b replica and i will buy it. guaranteed.