Training & Nutrition - I waan get better at hills... so spin em out or mash em out?

I've always been crappy at hills.... I can hang with most people though the flats but I get dropped climbing

so on climbs should I be mashing them in a harder gear to get better or spinning them out ?

good question

so on climbs should I be mashing them in a harder gear to get better or spinning them out ?Yes. Do hill repeats on the problem hills and see which method works better. Doing repeats will also make you stronger.

If your legs are burning but your lungs are not, shift to a lower gear. If your lungs are hurting but your legs are fine, shift to a higher gear.

Spinning saves your legs at the cost of a higher oxygen consumption (due to not being 100% effecient).

Also practice standing on climbs. It's useful for getting up shorter steep pitches and for "resting" on long climbs by using a slightly different set of muscles.

yeah generally I think I'm not carrying enough momentum into the hills and or down shifting too early

I'm' going to attempt to keep my gearing as is until I start burning in the legs then move to and easier gear and avoid my small ring (I use a triple).

see how it works out..... my legs are big and muscular but they're not great for endurance...yet

If you wait until your legs are burning to down shift, your legs will be tired for the rest of the hill. Your time up the whole hill will be longer than if you downshifted when you needed to.

There's no reason to avoid using the granny ring. Doing so won't make you faster, especially if your problem is endurance.

it is a fine balance between the length and pitch of the climb, and your aerobic capacity versus your leg muscles.

This assume that you have low enough gears that you aren't just stuck with your smallest combination.

Losing weight is the best way to improve your climbing

yeah generally I think I'm not carrying enough momentum into the hills and or down shifting too early

I'm' going to attempt to keep my gearing as is until I start burning in the legs then move to and easier gear and avoid my small ring (I use a triple).

see how it works out..... my legs are big and muscular but they're not great for endurance...yet

you've gotten a basic way to determine whether to use a lower gear and higher cadence or higher gear and push a bit harder and lower cadence. But I suspect that the issue is 'all of the above'. Climbing sizeable hills is not about momentum - at least in the sense of grinding a large gear. Thatz for rollers you can power over at speed.
Puttin the 'hurt' to the muscles also doesn't assure better climbing.

My guess is you ride a low cadence and high gear on the flat, while hangin with other riders, then struggle to find the right formula when things go vertical.

You don;t mention what you consider a 'climb' in your area. For some its a 200 elevation hill, for others its 2,000 ft. Let us know what defines your 'climb'.

My guess is what you need is time climbing and conditioning.
1st, get your flat riding cadence up to at least where 90 to 100 rpm with a gear ridden at speed, is comfortable. That develops some muscle efficiency.
Then go find a solid climb to do at least once a week - 1,000 (more is moe betta) ft of constant elevation change is good. Then, using whatever you got, climb it as best/fast you can. Record the climb time - that's your base benchmark. Note what gearing you're usin. That climb time will be well exceeded once you have a month of solid climbing training under the wheels.
Then pick one day a week to do climbing work.
You need both climbing strength and cardio/aerobic fitness, for which you can work on both.
I like to do at least 2 repeats on my climbing days. The 1st climb will be in a higher gear and focus on 'powering' up, either seated or standing. These days, for me, that means a 1,300 ft climb over 3.25 mi, with 7 to 12% grad (9% avg) using between a 50 & 58 inch gear.
Then I descend and repeat using a 40 to 48 inch gear at a higher rpm, mostly seated except for 2 really steep pitches.
DO this climbing day once a week and you will become a better climber.
Work on improving/increasing your comfort zone cadence on the flat and the climbing will improve faster and greater and you also become a much stronger rider on the flats.

BTW, triple or double, the point is having the gears you can use. Use whatever allows you to go up as efficiently as possible.
Most of my road bikes all have triples these days, and if its about the double ring 'pose', forget climbing cause there are no real posing opportunities on the upgrade, its about you and the hill .

you've gotten a basic way to determine whether to use a lower gear and higher cadence or higher gear and push a bit harder and lower cadence. But I suspect that the issue is 'all of the above'. Climbing sizeable hills is not about momentum - at least in the sense of grinding a large gear. Thatz for rollers you can power over at speed.
Puttin the 'hurt' to the muscles also doesn't assure better climbing.

My guess is you ride a low cadence and high gear on the flat, while hangin with other riders, then struggle to find the right formula when things go vertical.

You don;t mention what you consider a 'climb' in your area. For some its a 200 elevation hill, for others its 2,000 ft. Let us know what defines your 'climb'.

My guess is what you need is time climbing and conditioning.
1st, get your flat riding cadence up to at least where 90 to 100 rpm with a gear ridden at speed, is comfortable. That develops some muscle efficiency.
Then go find a solid climb to do at least once a week - 1,000 (more is moe betta) ft of constant elevation change is good. Then, using whatever you got, climb it as best/fast you can. Record the climb time - that's your base benchmark. Note what gearing you're usin. That climb time will be well exceeded once you have a month of solid climbing training under the wheels.
Then pick one day a week to do climbing work.
You need both climbing strength and cardio/aerobic fitness, for which you can work on both.
I like to do at least 2 repeats on my climbing days. The 1st climb will be in a higher gear and focus on 'powering' up, either seated or standing. These days, for me, that means a 1,300 ft climb over 3.25 mi, with 7 to 12% grad (9% avg) using between a 50 & 58 inch gear.
Then I descend and repeat using a 40 to 48 inch gear at a higher rpm, mostly seated except for 2 really steep pitches.
DO this climbing day once a week and you will become a better climber.
Work on improving/increasing your comfort zone cadence on the flat and the climbing will improve faster and greater and you also become a much stronger rider on the flats.

BTW, triple or double, the point is having the gears you can use. Use whatever allows you to go up as efficiently as possible.
Most of my road bikes all have triples these days, and if its about the double ring 'pose', forget climbing cause there are no real posing opportunities on the upgrade, its about you and the hill .

Thanks I will give it a shot

my cadence is generally around 90 on the flats but I'm working on getting more efficient so I can spin closer to 100 and feel comfy.

we really do not have allot of 1000 foot climbs if any here but I'll ask a few locals where they do their hill training?

Some people like to stand and grunt and groan. Other people like shifting to a high gear sitting and push it. I tend to like to sit and spin. It is a matter of personal preference and what feels right to you.

Try going here (http://www.trainright.com/info.asp?uid=4237).

+ what cyclezen said.

On little hills, you can hold the gear, drop a cog or even a ring if it's a roller, get out of the saddle with a flat back, and just hammer the hill, pulling up hard enough on the backstroke that you almost lift the rear wheel off the ground. Come over the top just short of gasping. That's fun.

On hills too long for that, sit and hold the gear until your legs start to load up, then shift a gear or two and repeat, again coming over the top almost gasping. Keep your butt in the saddle. If the hill is long enough that you'll need to hold a constant gear for a while, you're back to cyclezen's method.

When you're climbing seated, try not to move your upper body. That will force you to pedal circles. On long climbs, try not to push down on the pedals while seated. Use all the muscles in your legs to pedal circles. That will take a lot of practice. Straighten your back. Breathe by expanding your chest, then pushing out your stomach. Keep your mouth and throat open.

If you're with a group that outclimbs you, hold the last wheel until the blood starts from your eyesockets. Then you can back off. Most people have no idea of where their limits are.

I'll usually spin over small hills, get up out of the saddle for medium to long hills, and sit and spin (patiently) on the longest grinds.

Most of the time - out of the saddle, and climbing was my best thing back in my racing days, at 6'2" and 160 lbs. I'm 175 lbs now but it still works...when you hear you have to find your rhythm - and even the pros have trouble trying to climb at someone else's rhythm - what is meant is to find a balance between breath and work that gets you to the top. If you are out of the saddle, make sure you are in a gear you can push hard enough to get your breath going, and your breath should be regular, deliberate, and as deep as possible. Most people will want to slow down when they begin to breath that hard, but the trick to "finding your rhythm" is getting to that point and holding it, where you work the climb just hard enough to hold that edge your lungs are on. Too hard and you have to slow to recover, too soft and you lose the breathing focus.

I've always been crappy at hills.... I can hang with most people though the flats but I get dropped climbing

so on climbs should I be mashing them in a harder gear to get better or spinning them out ?

You can keep a lower gear for faster cadence or use a bigger one for a more powerful stroke, but two things:

a) If you find a balance point, you can have a moderately paced cadence with the most optimum power per stroke. You should also be at a point where you're not extremely oxygen-depleted, i.e. you should be able to hold something of a breath during the climb. However,
B) Doing repeats will help you get stronger and more acclimated for climbing, as well as increase that power per stroke.

On short risers, I prefer to hammer it out because that's the fastest way to get through them. For longer climbs, I prefer to spin and concentrate on keeping a steady rhythm. If you try to hammer a long climb, it'll be a challenge to finish it. Again, doing hill repeats should just help you go up longer hills faster, as well as improve your endurance to withstand them, if that's even a problem.