Advocacy & Safety - Why no lights?

Portland, Oregon has a high number of cyclists, especially on the inner East side. A significant number are carless, or use a bike as their primary means of getting around. I see many such cyclists riding at night without lights, either front or rear. Many, but by no means all are riding fixed gear/SS bikes. I see this not only on neighborhood side streets, but on major arterials and collectors as well. To me, this is insane. Why would you not want to have a light on your bike if you're riding at night? Is it due to lack of money to buy lights? Or is it some cool hipster bike messenger cheating death thing? Or, something else that I'm not sufficiently hip or cool enough to understand? :rolleyes:

At any rate, I live with a slight sense of dread that these fine folks are going to get themselves clobbered one night. Worse yet, I'm worried that, with no intent to do so, I'll be the one doing the clobbering!

I feel the same way every time I see people riding without lights, going the wrong way against traffic, even using the sidewalk, though riding without lights at night is by far the most foolish thing of all.

Since bicycling is not seen as a valid form of transportation by most, almost no effort is made to educate cyclists. I think it's simple: operate a bike as a vehicle, period. That means riding with traffic, in the lane, using lights, obeying laws, etc. What's so hard to understand about that?

Lights are pretty expensive... I think they are somewhat cost prohibitive. Ever since I got lost one night and had to ride home in pitch black with no street lights I will be carrying some sort of lighting system with me.

[QUOTE=LittleBigMan]I feel the same way every time I see people riding without lights, going the wrong way against traffic, even using the sidewalk, though riding without lights at night is by far the most foolish thing of all.QUOTE]

My Dr. friend calls them organ donors.

There's no excuse other than stupidity for unlit night riding. With a lot of the messenger/wannabe crowd, it's called "DCH" syndrome--a bike mechanic I know calls 'em "dumb, cheap hippie" cyclists and likes to point out that their ear, nose, schlong, whatever, rings cost a whole lot more than a helmet and good set of lights!

A pretty good set of lights is not expensive. You can get 2- or 4AA headlamps at WalMart for under $20. These are not bad lamps, either: they're 2 to 4w lights, with halogen bulbs and decent run times. These lamps are brighter than a hub generator powered light. A cheap blinkie, and some reflectors, and the whole package is under $40. So, for <$40, you can get a better lighting setup than 19/20 cyclists.

So, yeah, there's just no excuse for riding around in the dark.

These cheap headlamps are underestimated as bike headlights. My emergency backup headlight is a 4w Princeton halogen headlamp. It's a bit more expensive than the WalMart headlamps, but that's for features of convenience, not necessarily for additional light producing powers. I don't feel comfortable traveling at daytime speeds on dark roads with this light, but I am confident I can be seen and I can avoid hazards at somewhat reduced speeds. I've used it a few times very comfortably to get back home when I forgot to charge the main light fully. If I were broke, I'd be comfortable using this as my sole headlight.

This is not an expensive light. It was maybe $40. I also like it as a backup light because it's convenient to use for roadside repairs. I can keep it on my head, too, if I want to look at the computer (for some reason). Then, too, the headlamp is nice for camping, power outages, car repairs, or any other time a flashlight and free hands is a desired combination. I don't have to worry about recharging the thing, either. Finally, because it's a camping light, it's waterproof and doesn't have any complicated switch to break.

Yes, you have to replace the batteries now and again, but we're talking about AA batteries, which can be had for like .10 each now in large packs. I always have a bunch on hand. Thanks again, WalMart.

Lights are pretty expensive... I think they are somewhat cost prohibitive. Ever since I got lost one night and had to ride home in pitch black with no street lights I will be carrying some sort of lighting system with me.

There is no excuse for riding at night wothout lights you can light your bike front and back to be seen (not for seeing with) for under $20 if you can't afford it don't ride at night.

I was driving on a side street that had street lights a few years ago when all of the sudden I was passing a bike no lights black clothing. Totally stupid!

There is no excuse for riding at night wothout lights you can light your bike front and back to be seen (not for seeing with) for under $20 if you can't afford it don't ride at night.

I was driving on a side street that had street lights a few years ago when all of the sudden I was passing a bike no lights black clothing. Totally stupid!


Easy... I left after work in plenty of light for a 2hr ride and it turned into a 4hr hammerfest as I tried to get home before it was dark, but obviously didn't. It happens.

A pretty good set of lights is not expensive. You can get 2- or 4AA headlamps at WalMart for under $20. These are not bad lamps, either: they're 2 to 4w lights, with halogen bulbs and decent run times. These lamps are brighter than a hub generator powered light. A cheap blinkie, and some reflectors, and the whole package is under $40. So, for <$40, you can get a better lighting setup than 19/20 cyclists.

So, yeah, there's just no excuse for riding around in the dark.

These cheap headlamps are underestimated as bike headlights. My emergency backup headlight is a 4w Princeton halogen headlamp. It's a bit more expensive than the WalMart headlamps, but that's for features of convenience, not necessarily for additional light producing powers. I don't feel comfortable traveling at daytime speeds on dark roads with this light, but I am confident I can be seen and I can avoid hazards at somewhat reduced speeds. I've used it a few times very comfortably to get back home when I forgot to charge the main light fully. If I were broke, I'd be comfortable using this as my sole headlight.

This is not an expensive light. It was maybe $40. I also like it as a backup light because it's convenient to use for roadside repairs. I can keep it on my head, too, if I want to look at the computer (for some reason). Then, too, the headlamp is nice for camping, power outages, car repairs, or any other time a flashlight and free hands is a desired combination. I don't have to worry about recharging the thing, either. Finally, because it's a camping light, it's waterproof and doesn't have any complicated switch to break.

Yes, you have to replace the batteries now and again, but we're talking about AA batteries, which can be had for like .10 each now in large packs. I always have a bunch on hand. Thanks again, WalMart.
F' WalMart! 'n' $40 isn't cheap to a lot of folks...'n' bat's suck too, in the big picture. If you have to use batteries, $20- $25 max for a three-lamp led - bright as hell and the batteries outlast a halogen several times over...better yet IMO is a 6V dynamo set with a good 2.4W focused-beam lamp. All you ever need is the occasional bulb...

Even more important, WTF don't bikes come w/ lights when you buy them??? :rolleyes:

I see many such cyclists riding at night without lights, either front or rear...Is it due to lack of money to buy lights? Or is it some cool hipster bike messenger cheating death thing? Or, something else that I'm not sufficiently hip or cool enough to understand? :rolleyes:

When it comes to Portland, I think it's sometimes a money thing (when the only transportation people have is a huffy, no, they're NOT usually going to spend $30 on lights) and sometimes a kind of hipster in your face thing ("bikes are legitimate transportation, you gas hog, and i'm going to prove it by being just as clueless as you! if you don't see me in my black outfit with no reflectors you're clearly in need of reeducation").

Plus there's this: lights get stolen. It's happened to me multiple times. Once they even got stolen the same day I installed them. Of course, i know, most of them are quick release, but when you're parking 5 x / day at various establishments the whole unclipping and stowing lights routine just becomes this gigantic fussy drag. For a while I put both the front and back lights on my helmet, which worked great, but was a little too Transformer(tm)- like during the day, especially as I didn't turn into a giant robot on command.

Another reason dynamos are better. Everything's bolted down to the bike. If you have detachable lites/ bat packs, though, it's best to keep them stowed in your bag except when you need them. :)

Portland, Oregon has a high number of cyclists, especially on the inner East side. A significant number are carless, or use a bike as their primary means of getting around. I see many such cyclists riding at night without lights, either front or rear. Many, but by no means all are riding fixed gear/SS bikes. I see this not only on neighborhood side streets, but on major arterials and collectors as well. To me, this is insane. Why would you not want to have a light on your bike if you're riding at night? Is it due to lack of money to buy lights? Or is it some cool hipster bike messenger cheating death thing? Or, something else that I'm not sufficiently hip or cool enough to understand? :rolleyes:

At any rate, I live with a slight sense of dread that these fine folks are going to get themselves clobbered one night. Worse yet, I'm worried that, with no intent to do so, I'll be the one doing the clobbering!

I see it so much on my cummute here in portland too. people don't know you should not be clear over to the right or swerve between parked cars and such. I almost had a head on with a idiot going the wrong way on the bike lane on a main street. he had is little dog in his coat. I guess he does not understand what the arrows mean.

Plus there's this: lights get stolen. It's happened to me multiple times. Once they even got stolen the same day I installed them. Of course, i know, most of them are quick release, but when you're parking 5 x / day at various establishments the whole unclipping and stowing lights routine just becomes this gigantic fussy drag. For a while I put both the front and back lights on my helmet, which worked great, but was a little too Transformer(tm)- like during the day, especially as I didn't turn into a giant robot on command.

I keep the lights with me till the evening. That way they don't get stolen. I keep the lights in my saddle pack and just unclip that when I'm out during the day.

wel. i can't afford a good headlight. but at somepoint i will start buying one flasher a month and start a nice collection. :)

F' WalMart! 'n' $40 isn't cheap to a lot of folks...'n' bat's suck too, in the big picture. If you have to use batteries, $20- $25 max for a three-lamp led - bright as hell and the batteries outlast a halogen several times over...


Early on I used disposable battery powered halogen lights. You are right these are the least effective and most expensive way to get a little light. The batteries make it cost prohibitive. Rechargables would be better, but if you want to spend money on those, then spend $10 more on the light and you will get a much better LED light.

In the winter I have a 10W SLA Battery powered light, heavy, clunky and not practical to carry around.

For the summer I use a 3 LED light called the Nashbar Brilliant or Viewpoint Flare. This is very small, has both a rubber strap and clip-in quick release handlebar mount, and it doubles as an LED flashlight. It provides good light and I can toss it in my bag for the occasional time I need a headlight in the summer. At about 30USD it is a good value.

My next purchase will be a set of rechargable batteries and a charger.

Dan

Even more important, WTF don't bikes come w/ lights when you buy them??? :rolleyes:

The bicycle companies in the early 70's fought the consumer product safty commission on this very subject. The bicycle companies won the battle as a result, thousands of cyclists have been killed riding at night.

I think that cyclists generally (very broad) fall into three catagories.

Catagory 1
Cycle enthusiests. Basically the people on these forums. We love to ride. We think about it all the time. We also think going to a LBS (if you know what that means your one of us) to buy a new peace of cycle related gear (such as lamps or helmets) is one hell of a good time. We have lights, helmets, reflective clotheing, and tight shorts we think make us look good.

Catagory 2
College/High School Kids
Also referred to above as dumb cheap hippes, messenger wannabe, etc... These people ride to make points, "saving mother earth man" to get around campus or because they are two young to drive a car. These people don't share the passion we do for cycing, therefore spending 40 bucks on a decent lighting system, or even 10 on a cheap one dosn't make sense to them when that money could easily finance a case of beer or bag of pot.

Catagory 3
Poor People
These are the people I see most around my neigborhood. They ride early mornings / late at night from bad jobs making little to no money. Lots of them find bikes in the trash or buy them at walmart (which to me is worse). They generally have never been in a bike shop and even if they have they wouldn't spend money on lights or helmets because most can barely afford rent. Lots are alcoholic / drug users with little education. To most of these people a bike light has probably never even crossed there minds.

I believe that calling these second two catagories idiots does nothing to solve the problem. More education on bicycles should be provided in schools. A cool idea I think was maybe instead of a semester of gym in school (preferably a young grade) could be replaced with a bicycle class, encluding group rides. A national program should be eniciated to provide those who can't afford lights and helmets second hand or donated ones. Most importanly more enforcement by police without the use of fines. A forty dollar ticket is going to to nothing if they don't have forty dollars for a light.

Well I'll step off of my soap box now, and maybe go start planning some of the ideas I just had :) If anyone wants to help, PM me.

Ray

For a while I put both the front and back lights on my helmet, which worked great, but was a little too Transformer(tm)- like during the day, especially as I didn't turn into a giant robot on command.

This happens to be the best place to put a red blinky. Bell recently came out with a helmet that has a blinky built into the rear. I wonder what took them so long. It's a great idea. Alot of times blinkies are attched to the seat post which goes below the drivers line of sight once he get 5 feet from your location. At that point, you're basically invisible. With a red blinky on the helmet, you're basically visible even when the car come up beside you. Even an SUV will still be able to see your location.

I find a blinky attached this way gets LOTS of attention as very, very few people ever do this. It's so strange, that many motorist will ride behind me for a while instead of passing just to look at the blinky on the back of my head! I in general use two red blinkes at night but if I have only one, it does not go on the seat post but on the back of my head!

I feel the same way every time I see people riding without lights, going the wrong way against traffic, even using the sidewalk, though riding without lights at night is by far the most foolish thing of all.


As crazy as it sounds, I would rather see a cyclist riding slowly on the sidewalks at night than riding on the streets in pure darkness. I'm guilty of doing this all the time but then again, I only ride about 8 blocks in total. I ride slowly on the sidewalks at night. If I were traveling a mile or more, I would certainly use lights.

I think that cyclists generally (very broad) fall into three catagories...
Catagory 1
Cycle enthusiests.

Catagory 2
College/High School Kids

Catagory 3
Poor People
These are the people I see most around my neigborhood... They generally have never been in a bike shop and even if they have they wouldn't spend money on lights or helmets because most can barely afford rent... To most of these people a bike light has probably never even crossed there minds.

I believe that calling these second two catagories idiots does nothing to solve the problem...


Good breadown. I often see poor/marginally homeless people repairing bikes on the sidewalk.

I don't know if this is the kind of education program you're thinking about, but the Community Cycling Center in Portland, Oregon has at least two programs that address these kind of issues-- they have bike education for kids, and for adults they have a "create a commuter" program that provides a subsidized bike for qualified people, along with education and necessary accessories (rack, lights, etc.). It's described at http://communitycyclingcenter.org/create-a-commuter.html

Still, those kind of programs work good for kids or for people who really WANT to get their s**t together... They're not going to help people who are addled by drugs or ecstatic with the need to make a political point. At least the second type have a Joan of Arc destiny thing going for them, which probably provides a few microlumens.

Alot of times blinkies are attched to the seat post which goes below the drivers line of sight once he get 5 feet from your location. I routinely see seatpost-mounted blinkies two or more blocks away.

All right, here's the word from one of the crazy people this thread is about (categories 1 and 2, BTW). I admit I sometimes ride at night and I don't own any lights. My reason: It's seldom enough (and I'm poor enough from tuition costs) that it's not worth my cost. Instead, I take sidewalks and sidestreets and pull off to the side when the occasional car does come by. Plus I wear light colored clothes and so far my longest night ride has been about 1 mile.

If I were riding further and had to ride busy streets, I would get a cheap set of lights. I would hate to deprive this world of my person prematurely.

On the other hand, those people who seem to like riding the busy streets in dark clothes without even reflectors really bug me. Sometimes I wonder if I wouldn't be giving the gene pool a needed dose of chlorine by reacting a little too slowly once I finally notice them in my lane.

I carry a Planet Bike front lamp (clip-on type for the H bars) and a seatpost flashy.

deaflamb - Why bother with 3 catagories when you can do just as well with 2? People who act like me or people who don't and deserve my scorn.

I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't fit so neatly in your little breakdown. There are so many exceptions it makes my head swim. Maybe it is just the difference between Chicago, Il vs. Gorham, Maine.
jeff

Ever notice that the Bikeforums.net homepage has 20+ catagories?

I routinely see seatpost-mounted blinkies two or more blocks away.

You misunderstood. From a distance, the red rear blinky is most effective. It's at the moment the car gets right beside you that the blinky often falls below his vision. This is especially true if the driver is in an SUV! Once a driver loses the blinky as a reference point, you're effectively invisible.

I think that cyclists generally (very broad) fall into three catagories.

Catagory 1
Cycle enthusiests. Basically the people on these forums. We love to ride. We think about it all the time. We also think going to a LBS (if you know what that means your one of us) to buy a new peace of cycle related gear (such as lamps or helmets) is one hell of a good time. We have lights, helmets, reflective clotheing, and tight shorts we think make us look good.

Catagory 2
College/High School Kids
Also referred to above as dumb cheap hippes, messenger wannabe, etc... These people ride to make points, "saving mother earth man" to get around campus or because they are two young to drive a car. These people don't share the passion we do for cycing, therefore spending 40 bucks on a decent lighting system, or even 10 on a cheap one dosn't make sense to them when that money could easily finance a case of beer or bag of pot.

Catagory 3
Poor People
These are the people I see most around my neigborhood. They ride early mornings / late at night from bad jobs making little to no money. Lots of them find bikes in the trash or buy them at walmart (which to me is worse). They generally have never been in a bike shop and even if they have they wouldn't spend money on lights or helmets because most can barely afford rent. Lots are alcoholic / drug users with little education. To most of these people a bike light has probably never even crossed there minds.

I believe that calling these second two catagories idiots does nothing to solve the problem. More education on bicycles should be provided in schools. A cool idea I think was maybe instead of a semester of gym in school (preferably a young grade) could be replaced with a bicycle class, encluding group rides. A national program should be eniciated to provide those who can't afford lights and helmets second hand or donated ones. Most importanly more enforcement by police without the use of fines. A forty dollar ticket is going to to nothing if they don't have forty dollars for a light.

Well I'll step off of my soap box now, and maybe go start planning some of the ideas I just had :) If anyone wants to help, PM me.

Ray

yeah.. cus i fit into the last two catagories :D ;) :roflmao:

Most importanly more enforcement by police without the use of fines. A forty dollar ticket is going to to nothing if they don't have forty dollars for a light.
Instead of a ticket, the police could partner with local LBS's and issue a warning and a voucher for a discount on lights at participating LBS. Alternatively, any fines could be waived if the cyclist can demonstrate that they lit up.

I'm familiar with the CPSC story of bike lighting and reflectors, but I still think that if the law requires lights (as it does in EVERY state), all bikes should initially be sold new with at least a basic lighting system. They don't sell cars without lights and tell you that if you want to drive at night, you have to go out and spend $XX.XX on an aftermarket lighting system, now do they??? :rolleyes:

If the bicycle manufacturers were really serious about cycling safety instead of protecting themselves from perceived liabilities, they would start putting usable lights on bikes instead of dumb stickers that say their product is not equipped and therefore unsafe for night riding. And don't tell me it can't be done, 'cause all the manufacturers provide lights on their products for sale in Europe, and those lighting systems have to meet specific national standards in every European country.

I Most importanly more enforcement by police without the use of fines. A forty dollar ticket is going to to nothing if they don't have forty dollars for a light.

A Rear light doesn't cost $40. Nor does a cheap headlight. I think that's the whole point. I can't recall ever paying more than $30 for a rear light, and it was often considerably less than that. A flasher on the front would at least make them semi-visible to traffic entering from the side, and you could get away with the whole package for under $30 (and that's Australian dollars, so it's only a little over $20US, hardly going to break the bank). In fact, I'm seeing an increasing number of these "poor" cyclists using lights these days -- perhaps not highly spanky lights, but better than nothing nonetheless. As far as I'm concerned, a $40 fine might just remind then that next time it would be cheaper to just get the lights.

I also think it's less of a case of people "can't afford" the lights than simply not wanting to appear "unkewl, man!" by using them. Since the mandatory helmet laws were introduced in this country, we've had any number of people (teenagers/high school kids mostly, but they are by no means the only one) who ride around with the helmet strapped to their handlebars and not on their head. The idea being that if they see a cop, they'll put it on, but won't wear it at any other time because it appears to be uncool. It has nothing to do with the cost of helmets. It's probably a similar thing with kids and lights. In this case, I think a fine is highly appropriate.

However, as was suggested above, I think the issue is that there are no (or very few) bikes that actually come with lights as standard these days. This appears to be a symptom of bikeshops generally focusing on the "sport" of cycling -- and not on transport. I don't think it's even possible to buy a car without lights these days, so it's about time they came as standard on a bike. Of course, as I related above, that is no guarantee that people will necessarily use them.

You misunderstood. From a distance, the red rear blinky is most effective. It's at the moment the car gets right beside you that the blinky often falls below his vision. This is especially true if the driver is in an SUV! Once a driver loses the blinky as a reference point, you're effectively invisible. From five feet or less, IOW. Well, from that distance, a car driver should be able to see you no matter what.

From five feet or less, IOW. Well, from that distance, a car driver should be able to see you no matter what.

my post earlier about seeing the rider who was not light and in black, I didn't see him until he was already next to me. Thats a heck of a lot less than 5'.

Being to broke to buy a light is a lame excuse you can get rear blinkers for as cheap as $5

deaflamb - Why bother with 3 catagories when you can do just as well with 2? People who act like me or people who don't and deserve my scorn.

I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't fit so neatly in your little breakdown. There are so many exceptions it makes my head swim. Maybe it is just the difference between Chicago, Il vs. Gorham, Maine.
jeff

Ever notice that the Bikeforums.net homepage has 20+ catagories?


Your right. What I should of said is catagories of people who use there bikes for transportation purposes. By transportation I mean on roads/bike paths/bike lanes with other traffic, not closed race courses, tracks, skate parks and other recreational biking. My catagories apply to weather your riding on roads with BMX, Mountain, Singles Speed, Road, or recumbant bikes.

I don't beleave being too broke to buy a light is too lame. Considering you might need that five dollars to buy your next meal, buy cough medicine for a sick child, or buy a patch kit so you can get your wal-mart special to work. I have never had to live one dollar to the next, and hope I never have to.

Ray

For $40 plus tax (Atlanta money,) I can hook up a 20W front lamp and a 100,000 candlepower xenon rear yellow flasher that are visible 24hrs./day, with a rechargeable SLA battery and charger.

You can see and be seen all day long.

Battery and charger, $20.
20W headlight, $12.
Xenon rear flasher, $8.

I don't beleave being too broke to buy a light is too lame. Considering you might need that five dollars to buy your next meal, buy cough medicine for a sick child, or buy a patch kit so you can get your wal-mart special to work. I have never had to live one dollar to the next, and hope I never have to.

Ray

I have and if you don't have the money to change the light bulb in your car you don't drive. You don't have the money to light your bike properly and LEGALLY then you don't ride. Anything else is a justification or lame excuse. You don't have top use a bike to get around, just like you don't have to use a car to get around.

I have and if you don't have the money to change the light bulb in your car you don't drive. You don't have the money to light your bike properly and LEGALLY then you don't ride.

I've got to agree with Nateguy here. If you can't afford $40 for bike lights and reflectors then you can't afford to ride your bike at night. You'll have to take the bus home with your cough medicine or go during the day.

I agree with Merriwether and Ngateguy. The cheapest set of street legal lights sells for less than 5€ (6$) here. I cannot imagine it would be much more in the US. Sure, they're POS lights but enough to be seen by and to ride legally during the night.

All reasons not to buy lights are lame excuses. One of the more elaborate excuses I have heard was: "I don't want to be seen by other people. If they don't see me, it is easier for me to avoid hitting them." Organ donor.

--J

For $40 plus tax (Atlanta money,) I can hook up a 20W front lamp and a 100,000 candlepower xenon rear yellow flasher that are visible 24hrs./day, with a rechargeable SLA battery and charger.

You can see and be seen all day long.

Battery and charger, $20.
20W headlight, $12.
Xenon rear flasher, $8.

Can you provide details on this?

Thanks!

-chris

For $40 plus tax (Atlanta money,) I can hook up a 20W front lamp and a 100,000 candlepower xenon rear yellow flasher that are visible 24hrs./day, with a rechargeable SLA battery and charger.

You can see and be seen all day long.

Battery and charger, $20.
20W headlight, $12.
Xenon rear flasher, $8.

so tell us how and where to buy this.

ill admit it, i ride at night w/out lights. philadelphia is pretty well lit in the areas i ride so i dont think its too much of a problem. my bike has a rear reflector, and if i have my bag with me i clip the reflectors on at night as well. im not really worried about riding at night without head and tail lights.

ngateguy, merriwether, juha, i think some of your opinions are a little strong on the subject, bc honestly, i do not have $40 or even $20 to spend on lighting. my commuter (early 80s motobecane converted to fixed gear) didnt cost me more than $30 to build up, now why would i wanna spend more than my bike than i did on lighting? thanks very much, but ill take my life into my own hands, and dont gimme the line "but you're putting me at risk" bc im not.

hopefully you'll have lights so i see you when im going the wrong way down the bike lane (just kidding, im not that stupid)

im not trying to start a war, i just think that it is possible to ride responsibly at night w/out the lighting where i live, and i think that i do. im not putting other cyclists at risk, only myself bc of those damn cars.

ill admit it, i ride at night w/out lights. philadelphia is pretty well lit in the areas i ride so i dont think its too much of a problem. my bike has a rear reflector, and if i have my bag with me i clip the reflectors on at night as well. im not really worried about riding at night without head and tail lights.

ngateguy, merriwether, juha, i think some of your opinions are a little strong on the subject, bc honestly, i do not have $40 or even $20 to spend on lighting. my commuter (early 80s motobecane converted to fixed gear) didnt cost me more than $30 to build up, now why would i wanna spend more than my bike than i did on lighting? thanks very much, but ill take my life into my own hands, and dont gimme the line "but you're putting me at risk" bc im not.

hopefully you'll have lights so i see you when im going the wrong way down the bike lane (just kidding, im not that stupid)

im not trying to start a war, i just think that it is possible to ride responsibly at night w/out the lighting where i live, and i think that i do. im not putting other cyclists at risk, only myself bc of those damn cars.

Contrary to popular belief we to have electric lights out here. And our streets are well light. Bikes that run on reflectors are hard to see. I can tell you from personal experience. by the time your reflectors are visible to a car you are in there head lights before that they do not work. It is also the law that you ride at night with lights you would no more drive at night without lights would you?
So excuses are just that, excuses.

And when you are hit because you can't been seen you effect a lot more than just yourself so don't give me any of that bs

My Cateye LED headlamp only cost about $12 USD. I use 4 rechargeable AA batteries, and top off the charge from time to time to keep the light functioning at its best. Should shine brightly for a hundred hours or so, but I've never let it go that long between chargings. A simple light shouldn't be prohibitively expensive to own or maintian.

Can you provide details on this?
I think this is the thread...

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=42629

It is rather amazing just how many organ-donor-wannabes there are in Portland, isn't it? I live in NE up near Alberta and there are so many people riding without lights, often wearing dark clothes. It is especially nice when it has recently rained, the car windows might be slightly foggy. Even a cheap rear light is affordable.

I see many of these people coming out of the grocery with a 6-pack of beer. Most can certainly afford a cheap blinky rear light at least. I think it is the "uncool" factor that they don't put lights on. The hip thing is to have a very simple fixed gear, often without bar tape and certainly NO lights.

At least I know that if I get liver cancer or something there will be some yahoo out there riding for me.

...I still think that if the law requires lights (as it does in EVERY state), all bikes should initially be sold new with at least a basic lighting system.
You'd think.

If people rode bikes as much as they drove cars, a lot of things about bikes would be much different, including that. I think it's because so few people actually think of a bike as a vehicle, instead of a toy (even if it's an expensive toy.)

...I still think that if the law requires lights (as it does in EVERY state), all bikes should initially be sold new with at least a basic lighting system.

I was never aware of such a law. I won't contend it's existance, but no cop has ever bothered to enlighten me either when they pass by at night. I suppose they're too busy around here harassing innocent students having fun at private parties. I do know that Washington doesn't even require riders to wear helmets on the roads (it's mandated municipally in many cases), so I would be rather surprised if they do require lights.

Certainly not all bikes should be sold with a lighting system and I definitely don't think that it should be legally required. I would be upset if I had to pay for a feature on my mountain bike I was going to take off the second I got home. LBS employees could do an awful lot of good for certain customers, though, simply by advocating lights and explaining the law.

my lights:

cat eye rear flasher: $10

cat eye opticube large single LED lamp (4xAA): $17

I highly doubt anyone would argue with $27 to ensure their safety, and if they were truely that destitute, maybe strike a deal with them, lights for mowing a lawn or something...

I was never aware of such a law [lights]. I won't contend it's existance, but no cop has ever bothered to enlighten me either when they pass by at night.
Those cops failed their sworn duties to protect you if they ignored you when they saw you had no lights on your bike at night. Shame on them!!!

(Get some lights, you'll be happier ;) )

I was never aware of such a law.

I would be upset if I had to pay for a feature on my mountain bike I was going to take off the second I got home.
(1) You should know the law.

(2) You're never going to ride that bike on the road after dark?? Swear??

:p

I believe that calling these second two catagories idiots does nothing to solve the problem. More education on bicycles should be provided in schools.

Maybe the people who hand out free condoms could give out
bicycle lights as well.
;)

ill admit it, i ride at night w/out lights. philadelphia is pretty well lit in the areas i ride so i dont think its too much of a problem. my bike has a rear reflector, and if i have my bag with me i clip the reflectors on at night as well. im not really worried about riding at night without head and tail lights.... im not trying to start a war, i just think that it is possible to ride responsibly at night w/out the lighting where i live, and i think that i do. im not putting other cyclists at risk, only myself bc of those damn cars.

When I lived in Philadelphia, I generally rode w/out lights, too. It depends
on how & where you ride, of course -- plenty of streets are dark & dangerous,
but on many of those streets cars are the least of your worries. I remember
one night ripping through a North Philly neighborhood and coming across an
organized dog-fight in an empty lot. That was ugly.

I think this falls under the category of Know Your Turf.

If I rode today, however, I would still use lights. It's true that Philadelphia
is so bright at night that you can see actual stars only a few times a year,
but that doesn't make it daylight: people in cars can still have a hard time
with contrast and -- the most important point -- it really doesn't hurt anything
to wear lighting.

Unless you are operating under the theory that if they can see you, then
they can aim at you.

I do see people on cycles at night with no lights.

Now many of them apparantly are poor. But I think the problem here is poor compounded with ignorence. Around here you can get a front white blinkie and a red rear blinkie for about $25 total. It isn't the greatest arrangement but it is reasonably effective. Also hanging on some big old reflectors isn't expensive either. Many of these people ride around with no reflectors and very dark clothing and one has to wonder if they think at all about safety.

I also see a surprising number of reasonably affluent people on bikes with dark clothes and no lights. They have even less excuse then the poor.

The disturbing thing about this in the USA just about half of the cycling fatalities occur at night and of these night fatalities virtually 100% were people operating without lighting systems. From my observations, I would submit that people riding at night ride far fewer miles then all the people who ride in the daylight. So the risk to riding at night without lights is much higher then riding in the day light.