Living Car Free - Taken For A Ride - The Murder of Mass Transit

I'd like to suggest this book to people who find this sort of discussion interesting (whatever your opinion on the matter) and also enjoy boundary crossing between literary theory and history/sociology:
All That is Solid Melts Into Air: The Experience of Modernity (http://books.google.com/books?id=mox1ywiyhtgC&dq=all+that+is+solid+melts+into+air&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=sT_VSfOGE6nhtgfT0qThDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA9,M1) by Marshall Berman. Somewhat dated now, but a classic for good reason. Famously uses the construction of the Bronx expressway as well as the history of city planning in other metro areas to theorize and critique the impact of modernism on everyday life (it's not just about civics, though. And he's a Marxist. Fair warning for those bound to hate that kind of analysis.) [NYT Review (http://www.nytimes.com/1982/02/14/books/who-are-the-true-modernists.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) for a somewhat less flattering account (1982) , Amazon page (http://www.amazon.com/All-That-Solid-Melts-into/dp/0860917851/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1238712333&sr=11-1).]

There has been a interesting development in GM and the other major car makers in this country for the past several month. Simply put, they are about to go broke. I think this is a great example of "what goes around, comes around" from destroying our wonderful country-wide system of streetcars many years ago. I wish my father and some of his generation lived to see this happen.

There has been a interesting development in GM and the other major car makers in this country for the past several month. Simply put, they are about to go broke. I think this is a great example of "what goes around, comes around" from destroying our wonderful country-wide system of streetcars many years ago. I wish my father and some of his generation lived to see this happen.

We tend to be bipolar on many social norms.

Look at gambling, alcohol, and now transit. The GM dream of selling us their devil back fired, good thing people are finally seeing them for what they are.

We tend to be bipolar on many social norms.

Look at gambling, alcohol, and now transit. The GM dream of selling us their devil back fired, good thing people are finally seeing them for what they are.

If there is a bright spot in all of this it is that the American consumer is at least slowing down on buying cars. In February GM was down about 50 percent. Suzuki was down 60 percent. Toyota, Honda, Nissan were down about 33 to 40 percent. And Ford was down but I don’t remember if it was more or less than GM. So people are driving less and buying fewer cars. However China bought more cars than the US in January and maybe in February as well.

If there is a bright spot in all of this it is that the American consumer is at least slowing down on buying cars. In February GM was down about 50 percent. Suzuki was down 60 percent. Toyota, Honda, Nissan were down about 33 to 40 percent. And Ford was down but I don’t remember if it was more or less than GM. So people are driving less and buying fewer cars. However China bought more cars than the US in January and maybe in February as well.

I read somewhere that since gasoline prices have come down from their highs Americans are going back to their old ways and are buying big gas guzzlers again. :(

Do you have an invested interest in the company?

Why does GM not want seat belts?
Why did they hide their intentions. If the street car was crappy then why the campaign? Why did they have to modernize NYC?

The problem now and back then was private transportation failed and the government or the people failed to pick up the tab. We now have all the rewards of an autocentric society.
http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/42164857.html
Where motorist can lie about killing people and get a misdemeanor.

My carfree chops should be pretty good on this forum, so It's a bit of an insult to be asked if I, of all people, have a vested interest in car companies. I have a vested interest in the truth, as opposed to lame conspiracy theories that oversimplify and even overlook reality.

It's beyond me how anybody with a lick of commeon sense can believe that GM, or anybody else, could brainwash and trick an entire nation into believing a "lie" that cars are superior. Obviously, at the time in question--mid-twentieth century--cars actually were a better choice for the vast majority of Americans. Gas was 15 cents a gallon, there were new paved roads everywhere, you didn't have to stand on a corner and wait, auto financing was a cheap new innovation, and on and on. The people of that era were not easily fooled simpletons. They were good citizens making an informed and rational choice to invest in a motorcar.

And I hate to break it to you all, but cars still are a better choice to most Americans--for most of those same reasons. Very slowly, many of us are coming to the conclusion that cars are not so good. We point to things like congestion, sprawl, lack of community and especially to global warming and pollution in general. But gas is still fairly cheap, and the roads are still fairly good....

But if we want to effecively end the dominace of cars, we need to understand the strength of "enemy"--not just pretend that it is weak and based on an illusion bred by GM's trickery and advertising.

If there is a bright spot in all of this it is that the American consumer is at least slowing down on buying cars. In February GM was down about 50 percent. Suzuki was down 60 percent. Toyota, Honda, Nissan were down about 33 to 40 percent. And Ford was down but I don’t remember if it was more or less than GM. So people are driving less and buying fewer cars. However China bought more cars than the US in January and maybe in February as well.


I read somewhere that since gasoline prices have come down from their highs Americans are going back to their old ways and are buying big gas guzzlers again. :(

IMO, the only reason that car sales are down is the economy. You see similar drops in car sales in every recession. Car sales are always the first to slump and the last to recover. It's a very old saying that when the US economy catches a cold, the auto industry gets double pneumonia.

As for switching to more economical cars, this is totally depdant on what consumers believe will happen with gasoline prices.

If GM and Chrysler go out of business, the only difference is that Americans will buy more foreign cars. And remember that Toyota sells 10 times more SUVs than Priuses.

IMO, the only reason that car sales are down is the economy. You see similar drops in car sales in every recession. Car sales are always the first to slump and the last to recover. It's a very old saying that when the US economy catches a cold, the auto industry gets double pneumonia.

If the economy recovers, I expect that driving will continue to decline. Global competition between developed and developing countries will drive up the cost of fuel and materials, forcing people to economize.

I don't share the disdain for automobiles that others on this forum do, but I would be happy to see them become smaller, more fuel efficient and less polluting. I would also be happy if more cities and suburbs were modified in such a way that shortened commutes while also making it possible to take care of errands by bike and on foot. Rising costs could propel us in that direction.

And I hate to break it to you all, but cars still are a better choice to most Americans...

I hate to break it to you, but with news like this (http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=78013) breaking on an almost daily basis, you are wrong.

Edited to add: Here's another reason to use mass transit or cycle, hot off of the press:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/04/03/antarctica.ice.shelf/?iref=mpstoryview
(http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/04/03/antarctica.ice.shelf/?iref=mpstoryview)

IMO, the only reason that car sales are down is the economy. You see similar drops in car sales in every recession. Car sales are always the first to slump and the last to recover. It's a very old saying that when the US economy catches a cold, the auto industry gets double pneumonia.

As for switching to more economical cars, this is totally depdant on what consumers believe will happen with gasoline prices.

If GM and Chrysler go out of business, the only difference is that Americans will buy more foreign cars. And remember that Toyota sells 10 times more SUVs than Priuses.

I realize why people are buying fewer cars. That is why I had the caveat of a bright spot. It doesn’t seem to have had much of an effect on mass transit but it seems to have finally done some good for the LBS where I shop. Maybe it is because of tax returns but they have been selling bikes like mad on a big sale for the whole week. I also realize that Toyota sells a lot of vehicles bigger than a Prius. There is just a better chance of the consumer getting a better selection of alternative vehicles from new players I think.

And I hate to break it to you all, but cars still are a better choice to most Americans

a sad reality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wniGFm_jgRI

Johnnys in america, low-techs at the
Wheel
No-one needs anyone, they dont even
Just pretend
Johnnys in america

Im afraid of americans
Im afraid of the world
Im afraid I cant help it
Im afraid I cant
Johnnys in america

Johnny wants a brain, johnny wants to
Suck on a coke
Johnny wants a woman, johnny wants
To think of a joke
Johnnys in america

Im afraid of americans
Im afraid of the world
Im afraid I cant help it
Im afraid I cant
Johnnys in america

Johnnys in america, johnny looks up at
The stars
Johnny combs his hair and johnny
Wants ***** and cars
Johnnys in america

Im afraid of americans
Im afraid of the world
Im afraid I cant help it
Im afraid I cant
Johnnys in america

God is an american
Im afraid of americans
Im afraid of the world

Im afraid I cant help it

Im afraid I cant

Im afraid of americans
Im afraid of the words
Im afraid I cant help it
Im afraid I cant
Johnnys in america
Johnnys in america

If GM and Chrysler go out of business, the only difference is that Americans will buy more foreign cars. And remember that Toyota sells 10 times more SUVs than Priuses.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan are among the foreign car companies which assemble vehicles in the U.S. and Canada. If those companies pick up the slack from a defunct GM or Chrysler, automative jobs would likely stay in the U.S., just distributed among different companies than today.

It's more a matter of human nature. If you give the average American, Indian or Chinese person a choice between:

a.) riding a bike, rain or or shine,
b.) waiting for a bus or train,
c.) having a car,

guess which one they'll choose, all other things being equal?


The average Indian or Chinese will choose 'a' or 'b' because he can't afford a car. Most Americans will choose 'c' because they can afford one and because they have the worst mass transit system in the industrialized world, but what if they had the option of fast, modern, economical trains and buses? I believe millions of people would use them.

On Thursday, a new metro line (http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_20746.shtml) was opened in this fair city. It's already being judged a success and is expected to carry nearly fifteen million passengers in its first year of operation. Our physically separated bike lanes and public bike programs have also been hugely successful. There are still far too many people driving unnecessarily, but as the transit system grows (there are new metro and streetcar lines planned) and the price of fuel increases, more and more people will be parking them. In the case of a sudden collapse in the supply of petroleum, I think we'll be ready. How many American cities are prepared for such a scenario?

If we want to avoid the fate of every fallen hegemon we had better learn how to forgo short term profit taking for long term survivability. We need an internally motivated sense of duty that extends beyond our own lifetimes. That's a pretty radical departure from the contemporary mode of thought and it's not clear how we get there from here.


(apologies to all of the non-American BF members for the presumptive use of 'we')

[Though to self: I wonder if GM might consider investing in the gun industry... I wonder what they could do for the manufacture of assault rifles??? :rolleyes:]

What exactly does that have to do with bicycles?

Tom Whipple...as usual, has a reasonable and feasible suggestion (http://fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4308:the-peak-oil-crisis-seize-the-moment&catid=17:national-commentary&Itemid=79). Eventually people are going to wake up and realize that an economy cannot survive on a single source, ie; constant consumerism, service, or information sales. The US has a fairly weak manufacturing base, we depend on cheap, boundless supplies of energy for our very survival. All of that is about to come crashing down around our heads. We have a chance to try and mitigate the damage, but it is going to be a very small window of opportunity and it won't stay open for very long.

Aaron:)

We need an internally motivated sense of duty that extends beyond our own lifetimes.
:thumb:

If we want to avoid the fate of every fallen hegemon we had better learn how to forgo short term profit taking for long term survivability. We need an internally motivated sense of duty that extends beyond our own lifetimes. That's a pretty radical departure from the contemporary mode of thought and it's not clear how we get there from here. )

Doesn't that require a belief in God or reincarnation? As an atheist, I do not recognize such fictions as "duties".

Doesn't that require a belief in God or reincarnation? As an atheist, I do not recognize such fictions as "duties".


Absolutely not. there are at least two other foundations for for ethical development:

Belief in the planet, the biosystem, the sense of biological justice.
Belief in future generations--our offspring have a right to life.

Tom Whipple...as usual, has a reasonable and feasible suggestion (http://fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4308:the-peak-oil-crisis-seize-the-moment&catid=17:national-commentary&Itemid=79).Aaron:)

http://web.mit.edu/ryangray/Public/Gnus/thumbs_up.jpg

Thank you very much indeed for linking to that great article. Why don't we see more ideas like Mr Whipple's being expressed in the mainstream media?

Thank you very much indeed for linking to that great article. Why don't we see more ideas like Mr Whipple's being expressed in the mainstream media?

I suspect because they are afraid to face the truth due to the fact it would cause political suicide or they are clueless. Five years ago I had never heard of peak oil, I could see the mortgage crisis starting, and the loss of manufacturing has been sorely obvious to me for much longer. The more I researched our energy consumption patterns and how the US has been built on a dependency on cheap and plentiful energy the more aware I became of the changes I needed to start making to be able to survive the upcoming mayhem.

Aaron:)

Doesn't that require a belief in God or reincarnation? As an atheist, I do not recognize such fictions as "duties".

Erm? Nope. I'd put myself in the "Atheist" camp too, and i'm a strong believer in inter-generational duties of the sort. If all i'm going to leave is what I accomplish, I would rather accomplish good things that will be appreciated, rather than having my legacy be to posthumously annoy and trouble future generations.

I suspect because they are afraid to face the truth due to the fact it would cause political suicide or they are clueless. Five years ago I had never heard of peak oil, I could see the mortgage crisis starting, and the loss of manufacturing has been sorely obvious to me for much longer. The more I researched our energy consumption patterns and how the US has been built on a dependency on cheap and plentiful energy the more aware I became of the changes I needed to start making to be able to survive the upcoming mayhem.

Aaron:)


Those of us that were around for the oil shortages of the early 70s have heard about peak oil before. I can’t remember who they were quoting, it seems as if the guys name was Miller, said we have 30 years oil left. We had lines blocks long and odd and even days to get gas and a national 55 MPG speed limit. Turns out there were no oil shortage and 30 years came and went and we still had oil. Now it is revised to we have peaked on easy to reach oil. But they are using the same data they used in the early 70s.

But to make ths bike related my gas bill for fuel last month was $25.00. My heating bill was $38.00. Still I would have used mass transit rather than drive even that $25.00 if it went anywhere near where I wanted to go. My bike goes right where I want to go.

Those of us that were around for the oil shortages of the early 70s have heard about peak oil before. I can’t remember who they were quoting, it seems as if the guys name was Miller, said we have 30 years oil left. We had lines blocks long and odd and even days to get gas and a national 55 MPG speed limit. Turns out there were no oil shortage and 30 years came and went and we still had oil. Now it is revised to we have peaked on easy to reach oil. But they are using the same data they used in the early 70s.

But to make ths bike related my gas bill for fuel last month was $25.00. My heating bill was $38.00. Still I would have used mass transit rather than drive even that $25.00 if it went anywhere near where I wanted to go. My bike goes right where I want to go.

I was around too and yes there was an oil shortage...the American oil fields peaked.

Aaron:)

Tom Whipple...as usual, has a reasonable and feasible suggestion (http://fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4308:the-peak-oil-crisis-seize-the-moment&catid=17:national-commentary&Itemid=79). Eventually people are going to wake up and realize that an economy cannot survive on a single source, ie; constant consumerism, service, or information sales. The US has a fairly weak manufacturing base, we depend on cheap, boundless supplies of energy for our very survival. All of that is about to come crashing down around our heads. We have a chance to try and mitigate the damage, but it is going to be a very small window of opportunity and it won't stay open for very long.

Aaron:)

I think Tom Whipple is only half right on what's about to happen with the auto companies. First, the government is going to force GM in bankruptcy to destroy those union contracts. There's no way the economy will recover in 30 or 60 days and they know that since it's going to take 2 to 4 years before the recession is over and we reach full employment again.

However, the bankruptcy will happen much sooner resulting in half or more of all the plants shutting down completely. The remaining employees will work for a fraction of their pay with little or no health insurance. Those costly retirement pension plans will get torn up forcing those holders onto Medicare or Medicaide. If the government decides to restructure those plans, it will be only be at a fraction of their value.

I suspect whatever jobs are left will continued to be outsourced to Canada or Mexico.

I was around too and yes there was an oil shortage...the American oil fields peaked.

Aaron:)

Not a chance. The day after we settled for what THUMBS wanted for gas the lines and the odd even days were over. Not the month after. It didn't happen gradually it happened between Monday and Friday. It was like a truck had been parked on a hose and after it rolled off the flow started. It was a lie then. If there was a shortage there is absolutely no way, short of a magic Genie granting three wishes, they could have got the oil flowing if there was a shortage. I was on vacation for a week is Seattle and by the time I got home the lines were gone. I left and we had odd verses even rationing and when I got home it was over.

You can’t have a shortage in water and ration it and the next week drop the rationing. You can’t have an apple shortage and suddenly have apples available the next week. Either there is a shortage or there isn’t and from the day they decided the shortage was over to 2006 the fuel was flowing and the cars were getting bigger. The only thing that changed was it was discovered that there was so much sweet oil to be imported that it wasn’t worth drilling at home.

I agree we are using “their oil” and I don’t know how much longer it will be easy to get. But we even stopped drilling because it wasn’t determined it was needed or profitable. I am not saying oil is a good thing but I am saying we were conned and they have been jerking our chain ever since. I don’t know how much is left or how much more is left to be discovered, or not, but the last time there was no shortage.

Look, I hate GM as much as anyone, but this issue has been studied to death by Adler and others. The Snell-Bradford theory (GM buying the Red Cars) is as dead as "There's no such thing as global warming!" It just isn't what is real.

The order is wrong, the effect happened in cities where GM wasn't a player; the evidence for the GM conspiracy collapses like wet tissue paper when put to real scrutiny. If the fall of the streetcars was all because of evil GM, why did the streetcars get yanked out simultaneously (not after, at the same time and sometimes before) in cities in foreign countries? Did GM buy up Paris's streetcar system? Nope.

What killed the street cars was a lack of funds for infrastructure repairs at the same time as roads were being massively subsidized. In LA in particular, the Red Cars essentially fell apart under the forces of limited fares, an expectation that all repairs would be paid by farebox revenue, and the fact that the ones with the power to get the rail company the funds to maintain the existing track were the representatives of entirely car-dependent subdivisions into which no provision for future rail expansion had been given. It's like trying to lobby for road closures to increase pedestrian and cyclist access, and then having to appeal to a council made up mostly of hard-core SUV drivers.

Not a chance. The day after we settled for what THUMBS wanted for gas the lines and the odd even days were over. Not the month after. It didn't happen gradually it happened between Monday and Friday. It was like a truck had been parked on a hose and after it rolled off the flow started. It was a lie then. If there was a shortage there is absolutely no way, short of a magic Genie granting three wishes, they could have got the oil flowing if there was a shortage. I was on vacation for a week is Seattle and by the time I got home the lines were gone. I left and we had odd verses even rationing and when I got home it was over.

You can’t have a shortage in water and ration it and the next week drop the rationing. You can’t have an apple shortage and suddenly have apples available the next week. Either there is a shortage or there isn’t and from the day they decided the shortage was over to 2006 the fuel was flowing and the cars were getting bigger. The only thing that changed was it was discovered that there was so much sweet oil to be imported that it wasn’t worth drilling at home.

I agree we are using “their oil” and I don’t know how much longer it will be easy to get. But we even stopped drilling because it wasn’t determined it was needed or profitable. I am not saying oil is a good thing but I am saying we were conned and they have been jerking our chain ever since. I don’t know how much is left or how much more is left to be discovered, or not, but the last time there was no shortage.
The shortage in the 1970s was political and economic in nature. It was, as you mentioned, the equivalent of a truck parked on a hose. The flow stopped — or more accurately slowed — quickly. And when the political and economic situation changed, the flow resumed. Oil was in the ground but the sale of that oil had been carefully controlled.

The situation in the 1970s reminds me of a story from the Yukon gold rush of the 1890s. One man in Dawson City, Yukon, with more money than sense, wanted to frustrate a woman who had jilted him. He knew she liked eggs so he quickly bought up every egg in the city so she couldn't get any. The eggs were still in the city, but he had complete control of them.

It doesn't really matter how a shortage comes about. It doesn't matter if the supply has dwindled or if there's a problem accessing the supply or if there's a glitch in the distribution process. When customers cannot access a product, service or commodity, they are dealing with a shortage.