Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Long distance bicycle

I have been riding some tour rides with full loads and camping. It is fun and enjoyable. I also want to start riding some long distance rides, which I know is different from tour riding. Now to the point.
I own a 2009 Orbea Onix for my club rides and centuries. It is a GREAT bike.
I own a 2008 Surly LHT for my tour rides. It is a GREAT bike.
What about a bike for riding brevets etc. I have looked at the Surly Pacer, but it does not come as a complete bike, which is what I want to purchase.
Who makes a good or GREAT long distance (complete) bike?

the salsa caseroll seems like a good option, it's similar to the pacer but comes complete & weighs less i believe.

also i think soma makes a similar frame.

i'd keep fender clearance in mind when looking at any frame (if you aren't already).

You already own it. I just did a 400K on my Surly LHT and it worked out just fine. I run 700x28c tires. I plan to do a 600K on it next month.

Since you asked for "great",

Boulder Bicycles Randonneur: http://www.renehersebicycles.com/Randonneur%20bikes.htm

Rene Herse: http://www.renehersebicycles.com/ReneHerseHome.htm

Alex Singer: http://www.cycles-alex-singer.fr/

These are bikes built for and by folks who've spent a LOT of time riding non-competitive ultra-distance stuff. The Boulder is the least expensive of the bunch, at around 3 grand, fully equipped with fenders, bar bag and rack, and dynamo lighting. The Herse and Singer bikes start at double that.

SP
Bend, OR

ps - If I hadn't switched to 'bents a year and a half ago, I'd be jonesin' for a custom Singer myself.

pps - Before you say, "those are touring bikes. too heavy. I want something faster", consider this: at the last PBP, Jan Heine rode just such a bike (a 30+ year old Singer) to the fastest North American finish (50 hours) at the last PBP. And Jan is firmly convinced that he wouldn't have fared as well on something "racier".

Who makes a good or GREAT long distance (complete) bike?
Chances are pretty good that either the Onix, the LHT or both will work very well for brevets. While you can't go wrong with a bike optimized for LD, I think that will be more preference than necessity.

What I look for in a "great" LD bike is:
• semi-upright position (e.g. a tad more upright than a standard road position)
• excellent shock absorption
• ability to add fenders and racks
• ability to handle somewhat wide tires (e.g. 28c)
• low gearing
• stable handling
• rugged frame / components / wheels
• flat-resistant tires

LHT likely has more of these characteristics than the Onix, so I'd say for over 100 miles it's got an edge. But let's face it, it's a tank. A similar option would be a cross bike, which has the above features and a ride characteristics in between the Onix and LHT. Or, on the sportier side, a Roubaix-style bike will soak up road shock with a feel/position more like the Onix.

Fortunately, LD training involves a lot of long rides, so that gives you plenty of opportunities to try both bikes. I'd take notes on how well the bikes work on your training rides.

You already own it. I just did a 400K on my Surly LHT and it worked out just fine. I run 700x28c tires. I plan to do a 600K on it next month.

Interesting. I have ridden some with the Surly not loaded for tour, but not much. It seems to really repond well with all the panniers etc.

Did you take weight off the bike when riding the 400K? Things such as the front rack, or anything else?

I have much larger tires on the LHT. Did it make a difference with the 28 C tires?

Interesting. I have ridden some with the Surly not loaded for tour, but not much. It seems to really repond well with all the panniers etc. yes, I found the same thing with my old Trek 520. I could strip off the fenders and the rear rack, but it just never 'felt' right. But the 520 saw me through a full brevet series, up to a 600k and I'd ride it again if I ddin't have my ANT.


Did you take weight off the bike when riding the 400K? Things such as the front rack, or anything else?

I have much larger tires on the LHT. Did it make a difference with the 28 C tires? I went down to 28s from 35s on my 520 when I started randonneuring. I don't think the difference was too big. I wouldn't want to go narrower or higher pressure as the corresponding loss of cushion can wear you out several hundred miles over rough roads.

I left the fenders and rear rack on but no front rack. I just carried a trunk and handle bar bag on the 400K. I wouldn't want to try and go too far down a dirt road with the 28's but they are very comfortable on the road.

Who makes a good or GREAT long distance (complete) bike? I think most of the big companies make touring bicycles.

In practice, many cyclists try to use particular road racing bicycles with various modifications to accept luggage, lights etc. I guess it depends on your priorities when going long; form or function.

Didn't you already ask this question?
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=517159

I'll give you the answer I did there ...

"I've seen people ride just about every sort of human-powered machine imaginable on brevets. Name it, and I've probably seen it out there ... racing bicycles, sport touring bicycles, touring bicycles, old bicycles, new bicycles, fixed gears, single speeds, mtn bikes, tandems, a triplet, recumbents, tandem recumbents, a push-me-pull-you recumbent ........... So pick whatever you feel comfortable with." And I'll add trikes ... both recumbent trikes and tricycles.

A GREAT bicycle is GREAT in the mind of the cyclist. A cyclist might choose an frame acquired from the tip and built up into a fixed gear for the PBP, and in that cyclist's mind that bicycle is a GREAT bicycle. Another cyclist might choose an off-the-shelf carbon Trek for the PBP, and in that cyclist's mind that bicycle is a GREAT bicycle.

It all depends on what your desires, goals, financial situation, eccentricity level, etc. are. Often long distance cyclists will start with something fairly standard ... maybe a racing-style bicycle or a touring-style bicycle, and will do several events with that bicycle ... and then will decide to try something different to make the ride more interesting, or more challenging, or whatever.

Just make sure the bicycle fits, and that you feel comfortable with it ... those things are what make a long distance bicycle GREAT.

..."I've seen people ride just about every sort of human-powered machine imaginable on brevets. Name it, and I've probably seen it out there ... racing bicycles, sport touring bicycles, touring bicycles, old bicycles, new bicycles, fixed gears, single speeds, mtn bikes, tandems, a triplet, recumbents, tandem recumbents, a push-me-pull-you recumbent ........... So pick whatever you feel comfortable with."...

Funny, I got a similar answer to a similar question a while back. I thought it very odd, but found it to be true when I began riding brevets. You can make it on almost anything, and I am seeing people riding a lot of different bikes. I am about to finish my SR series on a hardtail with slicks (I hope!). Comfort, fit, and nutrition are huge. Training and pace are important. Equipment, as long as it does not fail, is less critical.

Funny, I got a similar answer to a similar question a while back. I thought it very odd, but found it to be true when I began riding brevets. You can make it on almost anything, and I am seeing people riding a lot of different bikes. I am about to finish my SR series on a hardtail with slicks (I hope!). Comfort, fit, and nutrition are huge. Training and pace are important. Equipment, as long as it does not fail, is less critical.

Did I give you that answer? :D

Take some time to have a browse through the Audax UK Photo Gallery.
http://www.aukweb.net/pix/index.htm

Like this one, for example ...

http://www.aukweb.net/pix/0vgaxfft_sun_sep_21_12_51_33_2003.jpg

Or this one ... these guys went flying past me at one point on the PBP ...

http://www.aukweb.net/pix/ea6nxqkf_tue_sep_16_23_03_17_2003.jpg

Or this one ... I think I might have ridden with them for a while on the PBP too ...

http://www.aukweb.net/pix/01eh1rgw_sun_sep_21_12_02_06_2003.jpg

[QUOTE=Machka;8623823]Didn't you already ask this question?
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=517159


I understand why you think it is the same question. However, I was trying to decide between the two bikes I have now and not considering a different bike for brevets for the first question. This question was meant to try to hear some suggestions for another bike for this purpose.
I have gotten suggestions that the Surly LHT would be good for brevets and I have considered it again, but having ridden it more, I think the Surly is best suited for fully loaded rides.

After all that I guess I do need to apoligize for not making my questions as clear to you as they were in my mind. I need better ability to communicate.

Well, Bobbycorno answered your question. In addition, you can by similar frames from folks like Peter Weigle. Of course, all those bikes are going to cost many thousands of dollars.

But now that you've pointed out that your actual question is "Should I use my Surly or my Orbea" the answer is "Whichever you prefer".

HTH! :p

This question was meant to try to hear some suggestions for another bike for this purpose.


Well ... there is no one right answer ... whatever strikes your fancy, fits you, is available to you, and that you feel comfortable with will work.

But don't you at least need a bike that you can attach a rack to hold the stuff you might need on a brevet? I don't see how you would attach a rack to a racing bike.

But don't you at least need a bike that you can attach a rack to hold the stuff you might need on a brevet? I don't see how you would attach a rack to a racing bike.

www.OldmanMountain.com

But don't you at least need a bike that you can attach a rack to hold the stuff you might need on a brevet? I don't see how you would attach a rack to a racing bike.

Some randonneurs use seat packs or small handlebar bags, or just put their stuff in their pockets.

I tend to bring a lot on my brevets because I can encounter a huge range in weather and my rides are very remote. But others, especially in areas where they will likely have the same weather, and lots of places to get supplies, throughout the whole ride, bring very little.

The majority of randonneurs -- even ones who participate in rides like PBP -- ride some version of a race bike, with necessary accessories jury-rigged into place. I personally don't think that's a "GREAT" solution, but what I think isn't that important.

Perfection (http://cgi.ebay.com/TOEI-randoneurring-light-touring-campagnolo-TA-berthoud_W0QQitemZ300304228858QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item300304228858&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50), of course, is always available for a price.

But don't you at least need a bike that you can attach a rack to hold the stuff you might need on a brevet? I don't see how you would attach a rack to a racing bike.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/502%20Mi%20Tour/FeltF-80502mitour.jpg

http://www.ebikestop.com/topeak_beam_rack_mtx_v_type_for_large_frames-RK2541.php

The majority of randonneurs -- even ones who participate in rides like PBP -- ride some version of a race bike, with necessary accessories jury-rigged into place. I personally don't think that's a "GREAT" solution, but what I think isn't that important.

Perfection (http://cgi.ebay.com/TOEI-randoneurring-light-touring-campagnolo-TA-berthoud_W0QQitemZ300304228858QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRoad_Bikes?hash=item300304228858&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50), of course, is always available for a price.


I'm not sure I would say that the majority of randonneurs ride a race bicycle, although perhaps the majority of American cyclists might. From what I've seen, there are a lot of "sport touring" or "audax" type of bicycles out there .... Waterfords, Rivendells, Gunnar, Thorn, Mariposa, Marinoni (these are very popular among Canadian randonneurs), Seven Cycle's Axioms, etc. And there are a lot of old steel frames which people have built up into randonneuring bicycles.

Did I give you that answer? :D

Yup.:thumb:


But don't you at least need a bike that you can attach a rack to hold the stuff you might need on a brevet? I don't see how you would attach a rack to a racing bike.

I have a rack and frame pack, and I like to carry a good amount of gear. But a lot of folks travel pretty light. It's a trade-off.


The majority of randonneurs -- even ones who participate in rides like PBP -- ride some version of a race bike, with necessary accessories jury-rigged into place.

Probably true, but maybe a slim majority. In our group of 30 or so, we have several recumbents and touring bikes, and a couple tandems, a hardtail, a hybrid... maybe 10 racers. The bike in your photo is my idea of a default rando rig, but I wouldn't call that a racing bike.

If you go through the Your century bicycle(s) sticky at the top of this forum, you'll see a lot of examples of bicycles that could be used for brevets ... after all, if you can comfortably ride it for a century (100 miles), you should be able to do at least a 200K (125 miles) on it.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=270172

But don't you at least need a bike that you can attach a rack to hold the stuff you might need on a brevet? I don't see how you would attach a rack to a racing bike.

i've strapped a carradice "junior" bag to my ciocc, although the brooks saddle helped with that, of course.

also, small handlebar bag's like Velo Orange's "half-baguette" will fit on just about any bike. and VO also makes a front rando rack that can be attached via p-clamps.

the thing that kills me when i ride my "race" bike on brevets - even though i'm way faster on it - is the bar/saddle drop, it's too much after 400k or so. but besides that (and no fenders) my race bike is a great brevet bike. fwiw.

race bike? rando bike? light touring bike?
all of the above. :) (but i don't race...)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_0jkA5M3PGcY/SdEcwyZGKuI/AAAAAAAAKWc/qGCCYfCwDLw/s800/IMG_7801.JPG


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_0jkA5M3PGcY/SJZZNwVIV5I/AAAAAAAAFxs/Ber9zoFh5tg/s800/IMG_5243.JPG"

www.CarouselDesignworks.com

www.CarouselDesignworks.com

Epic...! (http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/)


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t57/eaparsons/groupofbagsforweb.jpg

I'm not sure I would say that the majority of randonneurs ride a race bicycle, although perhaps the majority of American cyclists might. From what I've seen, there are a lot of "sport touring" or "audax" type of bicycles out there .... Waterfords, Rivendells, Gunnar, Thorn, Mariposa, Marinoni (these are very popular among Canadian randonneurs), Seven Cycle's Axioms, etc. And there are a lot of old steel frames which people have built up into randonneuring bicycles.

Fair enough. I should have said "The majority of randonneurs that I have personally seen..." bearing in mind that my rando experience is entirely in SoCal where few would be caught dead riding anything but the latest unobtanium creation. The point, of course, is that a significant portion of active randonneurs are "making do" with race-type bikes, and many of them seem perfectly content.

Fair enough. I should have said "The majority of randonneurs that I have personally seen..." bearing in mind that my rando experience is entirely in SoCal where few would be caught dead riding anything but the latest unobtanium creation. The point, of course, is that a significant portion of active randonneurs are "making do" with race-type bikes, and many of them seem perfectly content.

Yes, I can see that ... and when you're cycling in an area like SoCal where there won't likely be much variation in temperature or weather conditions, you can get away with a racing bicycle because you won't likely have to carry much.

The long distance cyclists in other parts of the world, like up where I am, have to bring clothing for a wide range of weather conditions -- it wouldn't be unusual for it to be +25C during one part of the ride, and snowing during another part of the ride. Clothing is bulky and can't easily be tucked into seat packs, so up here we generally prefer bicycles that can easily handle a rack.

Remoteness makes a difference too. Here, we can ride 12 hours and see nothing in the way of civilization, or at least open civilization. So we need to be able to carry food etc.

The ideal randonneuring bicycle may depend a lot on the type of conditions the particular rider figures he/she will normally face.

Agreed. And in that light, the OP's question is essentially impossible to answer. I personally think "GREAT" begins and ends with the French-style randonneuse, but I am the only one out of my circle of riding acquaintances that would be willingly seen on one. Why they would rather bodge some silly plastic racks onto their silly plastic racing bicycles so they can manage to carry anything more than a credit card and a titanium tire lever is beyond me, but again they seem entirely satisfied. *shrug*

Epic...! (http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/)


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t57/eaparsons/groupofbagsforweb.jpg

BINGO!

frame bags...

Yes, I can see that ... and when you're cycling in an area like SoCal where there won't likely be much variation in temperature or weather conditions, you can get away with a racing bicycle because you won't likely have to carry much.

The long distance cyclists in other parts of the world, like up where I am, have to bring clothing for a wide range of weather conditions -- it wouldn't be unusual for it to be +25C during one part of the ride, and snowing during another part of the ride. Clothing is bulky and can't easily be tucked into seat packs, so up here we generally prefer bicycles that can easily handle a rack.

Remoteness makes a difference too. Here, we can ride 12 hours and see nothing in the way of civilization, or at least open civilization. So we need to be able to carry food etc.

The ideal randonneuring bicycle may depend a lot on the type of conditions the particular rider figures he/she will normally face.

This makes perfect sense, Machka. Years ago when I worked (in the stockroom, I was not an expert outdoorsman!) for an expedition outfitter, sales people were hired because of their direct experience with and enthusiasm for several specific outdoor and back-country sports, and in specific regions. We mainly set people up for back-country canoeing and backpacking, but the principles were to anticipate the needs of the region and the itinerary, and get the customer properly equipped for that profile. The major limitations in all three activities are load-carrying capacity and preparation for the elements.

In bike design it applies, too. Tony Oliver, formerly a Welsh custom bike builder, wrote about how he had evolved his design approach building for local cyclists who raced on the roads they used for pleasure rides, and often on training or rec rides with him. He could always determine which design choices didn't work: if he couldn't see it, he'd get told by his mates.

Road Fan

Get a Thorn Audax 3 while the pound is in the gutter.

[QUOTE=Machka;8623823]...I have gotten suggestions that the Surly LHT would be good for brevets and I have considered it again, but having ridden it more, I think the Surly is best suited for fully loaded rides.

After a year of riding a LHT, I am reaching the conclusion that I did not acquire a bicycle that suits me in attempting randonneuring. :(

The absolute ideal long distance bicycle is a well setup road bike. Unfortunately, it can't really be relied on to carry heavy loads, and so the touring bike comes in as a compromise between the pure road bike and the ability to carry the loads.

The absolute ideal long distance bicycle is a well setup road bike. Unfortunately, it can't really be relied on to carry heavy loads, and so the touring bike comes in as a compromise between the pure road bike and the ability to carry the loads.

I proved that wrong on a 500 miles tour.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/10wheels/502%20Mi%20Tour/FeltF-80502mitour.jpg

The absolute ideal long distance bicycle is a well setup road bike. Unfortunately, it can't really be relied on to carry heavy loads, and so the touring bike comes in as a compromise between the pure road bike and the ability to carry the loads.

A 'road' bike...? Or more of a 'country bike' or all rounder?
It really varies by terrain and weather... but carbon racers can carry a certain amount of luggage on a beam rack or saddle bag - but well done 'club' racer styles can be light touring rigs.

There really is a ton of gray area from touring into road. I think if we eliminate 'expedition' class touring rigs and eliminate 'pro' class race bikes, there is plenty of room and choice to find something that works and meets owner specifics.

I agree. Just for the record, when I say road bike, I never mean an all-out carbon fibre racing bike. Those are just toys for new age yuppies as far as I'm concerned. But I guess I'm starting to become a dinosaur :-)

This is a great topic.
I'd like to add and second the motion that a long distance bike should be able to accommodate adequate fenders (depending on the conditions).
****** Steps up on soap box:
As an aside, I really wish RUSA would institute (or re-institute) the rule that riders must have fenders. There is nothing worse that following some clown with his fenderless go fast bike on a wet brevet. The spray from his/her wheels can make things miserable very quickly. It seems to me it's a simple common courtesy to use fenders for the benefit (at the very least) of your fellow riders.
****** steps down from aforementioned box ;-)

I think Thorn's Audax bikes are absolutely brilliant. Actually might be buying one of their 853 frames this summer.

An Audax bike is just a "sport touring" bike that is guaranteed to be able to satisfy Audax rules (or should be, anyway), such as fenders. Ideal bikes, for sport or light touring. Not quite the same as a full touring bike though.

I'm certainly a fan of fenders, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about making it an RUSA rule. Here in sunny SoCal fenders are used by essentially nobody and are generally seen as the height of uncool (serious business in this foolish part of the world!). Enforcing such a rule would cut a swath through RUSA membership and participation, I think, and to little end considering how few brevets are run in the rain around here...

An Audax bike is just a "sport touring" bike that is guaranteed to be able to satisfy Audax rules (or should be, anyway), such as fenders. Ideal bikes, for sport or light touring. Not quite the same as a full touring bike though.

I don't think there are many (or any?) randonneuring clubs or organizations that require fenders. In fact, there aren't many rules at all regarding the bicycles.

At one time, the piece of equipment you used had to be "human powered" and had to have at least one operational brake ... and so in 2003, one person used a kick bike to complete the PBP ... and he completed it! In 2007, however, the rule changed so that the human powered piece of equipment also had to have a chain.

Mind you, there was no bike check in 2007 (something to do with new turf on the field at the stadium) so a person could have been out there without any operational brakes (i.e. some fixed gears).

race bike? rando bike? light touring bike?
all of the above. :) (but i don't race...)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_0jkA5M3PGcY/SdEcwyZGKuI/AAAAAAAAKWc/qGCCYfCwDLw/s800/IMG_7801.JPG

Nice bike but what is it? Can you give us some build details?

Nice bike but what is it? Can you give us some build details?

IF TI Club Racer
TA Carmina Crank 94 BCD Double (currenlty 32/46)
Campy 13-29 rear
Nitto Noodles
Mark's Rack (riv / nitto)
Acorn front bag
Shimano 57mm reach brakes
Honjo fenders
Brooks Swallow Ti
Time road pedals
Conti GP 4 season 28s
Mavic OP 32s
Campy Rear hub, SON front hub, waiting to mount my Edelux (currently running an Ixon IQ)
IF steel fork with lowriders
Lezyne Road Drive LG pump


For longer distances I have an Acorn medium saddlebag (400k and up)
And for overnights a Carradice Camper

I'd agree that in places like SoCal where there is little rain it would make no sense to require fenders. Though, there are rules requiring lights (for evening events) and helmets for example. It's not as if riding in a RUSA sponsored brevet is free of rules with respect to equipment. That said, there were two unicycle riders in the last event I was on! More power to them.

I have a Roubaix, Gunnar Sport, and LHT and have ridden centuries and more on all of them. The Gunnar Sport is my go-to bike for long distance but really, all of them are more than satisfactory. I think the most important point is, whatever your long distance bike, that it be set up and fit comfortably for the long hours you will put in on it.

The OP entitled this thread as being about "long distance bicycle", not necessarily touring or audax. My replies are provided in that context.

Use whatever the heck bike meets your needs. There's no point in using more bike than you need though. Once a person is used to riding a responsive, well-handling sport road bike (not necessarily a "racing" bike), it's hard to ride anything else unless you need to carry a lot of stuff (and even a sport touring bike may be able to carry it to some extent). It's hard because going to a touring bike or even a more traditional French-style randonneuse feels slow and sluggish in comparison. So, it's all a matter of individual taste, and what you need to do the job. I mean, for sure, there has always been plenty of touring using just about any kind of road bike. Fenders aren't absolutely necessary. Some tourists prefer to ride without them. A fender can cause a crash if something gets sucked up and stuck in one. If you're going to be riding a lot in the rain on a long trip, you're going to get very wet, fenders or no fenders.

The first road bike I ever had was a birthday present when I was 16. It was a British-made bike, and it had nice, full, chrome fenders. I took those off fairly early on and never looked back. I've never had a fender on a bike since, and we're talking 39 years ago.

It's hard because going to a touring bike or even a more traditional French-style randonneuse feels slow and sluggish in comparison.

Heresy! Get out the torches and pitchforks!

long distance bike, in my order of build quality:

comfort of the rider
durability of the frame / fork
room for fenders / wider tires (relates to comfort of the rider)
options for carrying luggage without adversly affecting handling (relates to comfort of the rider)
options for mounting lights, and luggage mentioned above

note - comfort doesn't mean a leather couch with cup holders... but a blend of ability to stay on the bike for a long period of time and put out enough power to keep moving at the pace that works for the rider.