Tandem Cycling - Is my Santana worth upgrading?

I bought a used Santana Sovereign for $600 off Craig's List last year. I've been really happy with the bike, and so far the only change I've made is to switch the down tube shifters to barcons. It has a 6-speed rear cluster, and I'd like to change the gearing to get a little more bottom end and make the shifting easier. The question I have is at what $ point am I better off looking for a newer tandem, rather than throwing more $ at this one. Right now I'd be willing to put maybe $1200 in it to get it how I'd like it. Thoughts?

I would begin by assuming it is the right size, and you don't foresee any major changes that would require modifying the frame (e.g. S&S retrofit). If it is the right size, ask yourself what an equivalent new bike would cost. Go to a few sites, and price out the bike that looks like the fully upgraded version of what you're looking to do. Assuming you could get your $600 back from this bike, subtract that from the new price. The difference, assuming the current frame is in good condition, gives you an idea of how much you can upgrade it before you're wasting money. Just guessing, but I'd imagine you have $3000 to work with.

All of this is assuming you plan to keep the bike indefinitely, and since you're "really happy with the bike", that seems a reasonable assumption.

[QUOTE=WebsterBikeMan;8630517] If it is the right size, ask yourself what an equivalent new bike would cost. Go to a few sites, and price out the bike that looks like the fully upgraded version of what you're looking to do. QUOTE]

Change "new bike" by "lightly used bike" What you loose on aged components you make up with frame design/paint/etc.

Thoughts?

Go find a few newer second hand tandems priced around $1,800 and see how they would compare to your Santana with $1,200 in upgrades. If the Santana would still be more to your liking, then go ahead and make the upgrades.

Given the gearing, I'm guessing this is a steel fillet-brazed Sovereign which while a bit heavy compared to new steel frames from Santana and others is still a pretty nice frame. However, if it's a steel Sovereign you can respace the rear triangle to accept a proper 145mm rear hub.

Anyway, without knowing what the condition of the frame is it's really hard to judge what the best option might be. However, you could probably upgrade the important stuff for a lot less than $1,200 to address your gearing concerns and that would easily buy you another season or perhaps give your a $1 for $1 return on your upgrades if you eventually sell it and make the jump to a more expensive new or used contemporary tandem.

Tandems are VERY expensive with new ones running $3 to $4 thousand dollars. If it were me and the bike fit, I'd keep it and do a few upgrades.

Tandems are VERY expensive with new ones running $3 to $4 thousand dollars.

Oh please, there are very nice new tandems that sell anywhere from around $1,000 for a Trek T900 to 700c KHS models around $1,500, to Cannondale's very nice R3 for $1,800 or their near top-line R2 for $2,700.

If you want to buy premium brand and grade tandems then, yes: $3,000 is about the starting point and the equivalent current Santana model to the Sovereign our friend has would be closer to $5,000 today.

Exotic and high-end tandems run anywhere from $6,000 to $12,000.

In other words, quality tandems cost about what you'd pay for two single bikes of similar quality and features.

I went through the same exercise. We got a used Santana Arriva on Craig's list for $700. It's an XL which was the perfect size since I'm 6'1" and my wife is 6'. It had 105 8spd gears on it and was in great condition. It had a few chips in the paint, but really looked like it was lightly or never ridden. Based on the saddles and pedals, I could tell the previous owners were NOT serious cyclist.

I ran through Arriva change history on a few sites and determined the only difference between my frame and a current model mine has a drum brake braze on and new ones have disk brake braze ons. It had Hadley hubs that would accept a 10spd cassette. So, I decided it was worth while to bring it up to date. I get mostly "take-off" parts on eBay to save money, so I put about another $1300 into it to bring it up to what an Arriva would have on it new. Arrivas start at $4595, but there would still be shipping and tax and so I'm $2500 ahead at least. Actually, I shouldn't even count pedals since they're not included with the new bike anyway.

Saddles $250 (actually, from my garage, but will have to replace my inventory!)
Ultegra SPD-SL pedals 2 x $100 (eBay)
Ultegra 10spd STI $140 (eBay)
XTR long cage RD $95 (eBay)
New Tires and tubes $80 (Pro Bike Kit)
Easton EA70 bars for captain and stoker 2 x $80 (REI)
Co-Motion stoker stem $85 (Precision Tandem)
Stoker pegs $45 (Precision Tandems)
Syntace Captain's stem $110 (Precision Tandem)
12-27 Ultegra Cassette $60 (PBK)
Wipperman 10spd chain $30 (garage)

I went the upgrade route on our old original '90 C'dale... I prefer to do my own work....really enjoy the process of chasing the exact parts I want at the best possible prices. I spent a little more than planned ($1500+) which I knew I would because I love carbon goodies.
It turned out great, is very functional for how and where we ride and we ride it more than ever now. I saved many thousands of dollars versus buying a new one with like components and had a lot of fun with the project.

The only down side for me, since I'm a semi-weight freak, is; there are no amount of upgrades I was willing or could do, that would ever get the old C'dale any where near as light (7pounds+) as some current high end aluminum Tandems. If super 'light weight' is your goal.. save your effort...get out your wallet and buy new...either way -have fun!

Bill J.

Why that's easy. Upgrade the one that you have.

That way not only do you get to have the fun of riding your bike but you also get to have the fun and satisfaction of upgrading and working your bike.

They say that true love is demonstrated by paying for a $800 operation for your $5 dog....:D


So it's really up to you to determine whether you can get acceptable satisfaction for the money you spend. Whether or not you can get it into the shape where you would be truly happy with it for the money that you spend is a subjective assessment and depends both on your personality (i.e. do you enjoy shopping for bargains? or are you willing to pay whatever it takes to acquire premium quality) and your level of fiscal resources.


I would probably enjoy the work in upgrading parts and tinkering to tailor it to my tastes a bit more than just getting a completely new one (though getting something new has a quality all it's own for the first few months).

The frame is fillet brazed and a bit heavy, but in great condition, and it fits us well. I realize now that it's a no-brainer. I'm not looking to make an old bike into a "new" bike, I just want to make it easier and more enjoyable to ride. I think with a few hundred $ in upgrades we'll have a bike that we'll be happy with for years. Thanks for your input.

Oh please, there are very nice new tandems that sell anywhere from around $1,000 for a Trek T900 to 700c KHS models around $1,500, to Cannondale's very nice R3 for $1,800 or their near top-line R2 for $2,700.

If you want to buy premium brand and grade tandems then, yes: $3,000 is about the starting point and the equivalent current Santana model to the Sovereign our friend has would be closer to $5,000 today.

Exotic and high-end tandems run anywhere from $6,000 to $12,000.

In other words, quality tandems cost about what you'd pay for two single bikes of similar quality and features.

You made my point for me. Yeah, you can buy cheap tandems but they are not up to the quality of the Santana that he already has. You're right, to get what he already has would cost $5,000. To me that's expensive compared to thousand or so dollars to get this one in tip-top shape.

You made my point for me. Yeah, you can buy cheap tandems but they are not up to the quality of the Santana that he already has. You're right, to get what he already has would cost $5,000.

No... You missed the point.

His older Santana is worth about what he paid. The notional $5k Santana simply merely occupies the same place in the Santana line today that the Sovereign did when it was new some 18 years ago. In 17 years the $5k 2009 Santana will also be worth a mere fraction of what it did when it was new and will be on par with other older tandems of similar vintage or a new entry level tandem analogous to the aforementioned and warranted Trek T900 or KHS entry level models.

I bought a Kuwahara tandem a couple of years ago and after riding it for about 6 months I came to the same problem the OP had. I chose to upgrade. As a mechanic I would not think of someone building my tandem that I could do myself. I probably could have bought a better new one, but with a full Campy Record 10 running gear it would have been way more than I could afford. I know I saved thousands and had fun doing it. I spent more than I should have and there is nothing left that is original except the frame [even the paint is gone and new brake bridge brazed on]. I enjoyed searching for parts on eBay and enjoyed spending all the time researching and dreaming on what to buy. I was able to polish my brazing skills [well not really skills] and butching skills to come up with a tandem that was new that I could afford.
In the end it is still an old Kuwahara but with all the upgrades of TG's carbon tandem [and several extra thousand dollars in my pocket]. Now if I can comeup with some money in these lean times to find a new frame.....maybe with carbon in it.......

Of course if you are a weight freak and want to save money while redcing the over all weight... put down that burger and pick up an apple... much less expensive and good for the heart!!!!:roflmao2:

mmmmmmmmmmmmm...burger

no... You missed the point.

His older santana is worth about what he paid. The notional $5k santana simply merely occupies the same place in the santana line today that the sovereign did when it was new some 18 years ago. In 17 years the $5k 2009 santana will also be worth a mere fraction of what it did when it was new and will be on par with other older tandems of similar vintage or a new entry level tandem analogous to the aforementioned and warranted trek t900 or khs entry level models.

ok