Advocacy & Safety - Imagining a city without cars

Barcelona, 1908: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJdwzY1o7k8

o jee
it's full of hipsters on bicycles

Stop dreaming about the long ago past. Calcutta seems to be just the place for those who believe a city without cars is so dang desirable.

"Imagining a city without cars"

Did you actually watch the clip. There were several cars moving about.;)

And a bunch of zoo bombers trying to get run over by the trolly.:bike2:

We could use a return to 10 mph speed limits for cars. Well, maybe not 10 mph. But I'd settle for 20 mph within city limits.

We could use a return to 10 mph speed limits for cars. Well, maybe not 10 mph. But I'd settle for 20 mph within city limits.Better make it 25 mph, so as not to slow cyclist having to weave around the cars.

Oulu Finland... you can go anywhere in the city on well designed bike paths. If you do encounter a car, it will have stopped to wait for you. The city core is pedestrian and bike only. Bikes always get the shortcut to anywhere.

So if we go back to bikes we're going to be shot when we protest places of work?

Bummer.

At least women wont be able to vote anymore.

Better make it 25 mph, so as not to slow cyclist having to weave around the cars.

Actually I think that would be fitting, think of the complaints.

"Slow cars taking up the road, I had to beat one to a diveway and he almost hit me!"

Stop dreaming about the long ago past. Calcutta seems to be just the place for those who believe a city without cars is so dang desirable.

ILTB's right. The moment we get rid of our cars, the streets will flood with people, and we'll all have to go live in tarp covered shacks. Beware.

Beautiful film Randya. What I found interesting was the way the people in the film were interacting with the camera. Since movies were relatively new in the first decade of the 1900s, it will still a novelty, and it caught the attention of almost all the people on the street, who would either wave or stare at the camera.

In one of the comments written in Spanish, the author says that the people in the movie were waving and tipping their hats in a greeting to those of us living in the future.

ILTB's right. The moment we get rid of our cars, the streets will flood with people, and we'll all have to go live in tarp covered shacks. Beware.

Really, tarp covered shacks... Funny I don't see that issue in cities that are heavy in bike traffic now. Copenhagen or Oulu for instance.

It was an (apparently failed) attempt at a joke.
Which, on further reflection, ILTB's comment may also have been.

It was an (apparently failed) attempt at a joke.
Which, on further reflection, ILTB's comment may also have been.

The whole thread is a joke. The OP film is fine for rose colored reminiscing about the good ol' days, but doesn't make or serve any purpose that relates to bicycling safety or advocacy.

Nice film

Why settle for a city without cars, though I offer Pyongyang as an example. Why stop there? Why not have a country without cars....

I offer North Korea as an example. By the way it is also a country without electricity, which should be enough to bring envirowackos into orgasmic frenzy.

roughstuff

We got a city / island here in Michigan a massive tourist spot Makinaw Island . NO CARS ALLOWED horses and bikes or of course you can walk to get around . Great place to visit

We got a city / island here in Michigan a massive tourist spot Makinaw Island . NO CARS ALLOWED horses and bikes or of course you can walk to get around . Great place to visit

How do all the visitors and supplies get to this car free paradise? Must be nice to have the car parking concession at the ferry slip.

Why settle for a city without cars, though I offer Pyongyang as an example. Why stop there? Why not have a country without cars....

I offer North Korea as an example. By the way it is also a country without electricity, which should be enough to bring envirowackos into orgasmic frenzy.

roughstuff

I reckon many of the people in north korea actually have more money than most americans.

Most people I know in america have a couple of car loans and a negative net worth.

Cool clip, thanks. To be honest though, I'd rather deal with the 1-3 cars per minute that I ordinarily encounter on less busy streets to having to deal with that mob of peds!

As an aside, I've spent some time looking at Google StreetView in various Italian and Spanish cities. Although the street topology seems very conducive to convenient cycling, it doesn't seem that many take advantage of it in the present day. I don't see the enormous bike racks that can be found in the Netherlands, Sweden or Germany. The two-wheel vehicle of choice seems to be the motorized scooter. Any observations from people who have lived in or visited southern Europe?

We could use a return to 10 mph speed limits for cars. Well, maybe not 10 mph. But I'd settle for 20 mph within city limits.

I think 25 mph would be the most comfortable. At 10 mph, half of the cyclists on the road would be breaking the speed limit.

I reckon many of the people in north korea actually have more money than most americans.

Most people I know in america have a couple of car loans and a negative net worth.



HEE! Touche! And they have the Kimch'i to wake em up in the morning. ZIIiiiiinnnnnnnnnG! Not exactly a breath of fresh air. :)

Love eatin' those dogs though.

roughstuff

Stop dreaming about the long ago past. Calcutta seems to be just the place for those who believe a city without cars is so dang desirable.

Nah, the difference is that those Barcelona neighborhoods are middle or upper middle class 'hoods, and not slums.


:)

The whole thread is a joke. The OP film is fine for rose colored reminiscing about the good ol' days, but doesn't make or serve any purpose that relates to bicycling safety or advocacy.

I enjoyed it. Several others appeared to as well. It certainly makes sense in an advocacy forum.

It is a neat film.

I remember reading in a history-of-trucks book, that back around the turn of the century, there was a fear that New York City was going to be buried under horse manure, and so trucks were seen as the solution to that problem. You can see that a little bit in that video, still a fair number of horses around, and that seems to be the only freight system in use.

If you think about, that streetcar is SLOW. If I had to use that now, it would take me 3-1/2 hours to get to work each day.

Where's the electricity to run those streetcars come from? Could have been hydropower (kills the Salmon). Could have been big old coal-fired boilers belching out smoke somewhere, too. It came from somewhere.

You've got to figure that getting run over by a streetcar was just a pretty regular occurence around there.

Oulu Finland... you can go anywhere in the city on well designed bike paths. If you do encounter a car, it will have stopped to wait for you. The city core is pedestrian and bike only. Bikes always get the shortcut to anywhere.

When you put it that way, it sounds like it would be a real popular idea around here! :thumb:

When you put it that way, it sounds like it would be a real popular idea around here! :thumb:

It would require a change in our laws and a big change in the attitude of motorists.

The laws would have to change so that the motorist IS responsible if a pedestrian or cyclist is hit... unless proven otherwise by a proponderance of evidence against the ped or cyclist.

Here in the US, you have to prove the motorist is guilty, and even if they are, they still often get away with it.

It was odd having motorists respond to cyclists by actually watching out for me, stopping and then honking for me to get on with it. (I stopped before getting into a right hook situation... but the motorist then stopped and waited for me to move on first. This happened a couple of times as I came to a few surface grade intersections in the residental area... and stopped, as a good US trained cyclist would, before getting into a right hook situation.)

But as far as the city without cars... the well designed bike paths were well separated from the roads that motorists used... so often you never saw cars at all... and the city core was car free. It really was cool. (uh, pun not intended... it is cold there.)

If I ever get another chance, I will go back. Maybe in the summer though.

I enjoyed it. Several others appeared to as well. It certainly makes sense in an advocacy forum.

Everybody loves a good joke, a stroll down memory lane, neat films, and/or a cuddly puppy.
None of them are exactly advocacy points though.

Everybody loves a good joke, a stroll down memory lane, neat films, and/or a cuddly puppy.
None of them are exactly advocacy points though.

The advocacy point you should look for is subtle.
A journey through neighbourhoods from another time reminds us that city streets can be much more than an automobile dominated wasteland. Those people in the movie aren't only getting from A to B. They're socializing. Everywhere. Discussing the weather, politics, art or sports. They're not afraid of the 5km/hr tram. (Although Gaudi should perhaps have been a little more cautious some years later.:() It's a totally different perspective on what a street can be.
I doubt anyone's suggesting we remove all cars and trucks from the planet. But cities that have restricted traffic in parts of their cores have often created wonderfully pleasant places. Suggesting restrictions on motorized traffic is part of Advocacy. The Advocacy and Safety message is that fewer cars makes for more human streets. And safer cycling. I doubt that I could have received that message in a more profound way.

It would require a change in our laws and a big change in the attitude of motorists.

The laws would have to change so that the motorist IS responsible if a pedestrian or cyclist is hit... unless proven otherwise by a preponderance of evidence against the pedestrian or cyclist. (snip)

Do you see this happening anywhere in America in the next 40 years? :roflmao2:

Do you see this happening anywhere in America in the next 40 years? :roflmao2:

There are proposals for "vulnerable user laws," so indeed there may be changes in the way cyclists are treated by the law and by motorists...

And if autonomous drive vehicles do manage to become mainstream... the cars will indeed watch for cyclists.

So yes, in a way, in the next 40 years, I do see a predictable change.

Of course, today, we have to ride what we are given. Which means vehicular cycling and good situational awareness for the few, the brave, and the strong that do chose to cycle... the "1 percenters!"

"1%"... might be a nice T shirt, Eh!

I doubt that I could have received that message in a more profound way.
I think you already had that "message" firmly entrenched in your conciousness, and this "neat film" stirred it up a bit. I recommend that you watch the first third of the movie Titanic for the good old days of Trans Atlantic travel.

Do you see this happening anywhere in America in the next 40 years? :roflmao2:

Driving may become a much more expensive activity in the coming years. The rising cost of petroleum and other materials combined with expanding public debt may make it more costly to either drive a car or to expand automobile infrastructure. I've been reading a lot of articles about municipalities choosing to narrow main streets, mandate more connectivity between side streets, tear down freeway connectors, etc. If our economy ever recovers, I expect to see less driving as a result of high oil costs. If it doesn't, I expect to see less driving as a result of poverty. This could possibly lead to more cycling, which could possibly lead to an increased demand for such laws.

Maybe :P

Do you see this happening anywhere in America in the next 40 years? :roflmao2:

If you'd asked that question about the next five years then the :roflmao2: would have been justified. 40 years? A lot can happen in 40 years. Picking the 40 years from 1918 to 1958 just think about how infrastructure and transportation changed. That film was a scant 100 years ago. More than the average human lifespan, but just a heartbeat in time really.

Speedo

Come to California,we already have one here,called Catalina Island,bring a full wallet! You can wave at the buffalo while your there.You can see where Mr. Wrigley ( think chewing gum,baseball team fame) used to hang out in the winter. They were his pet buffalo that are running around there now.Did you know buffalo have blue tongues???

Stop dreaming about the long ago past. Calcutta seems to be just the place for those who believe a city without cars is so dang desirable.

The whole thread is a joke. The OP film is fine for rose colored reminiscing about the good ol' days, but doesn't make or serve any purpose that relates to bicycling safety or advocacy.

How do all the visitors and supplies get to this car free paradise? Must be nice to have the car parking concession at the ferry slip.

Everybody loves a good joke, a stroll down memory lane, neat films, and/or a cuddly puppy. None of them are exactly advocacy points though.

I think you already had that "message" firmly entrenched in your conciousness, and this "neat film" stirred it up a bit. I recommend that you watch the first third of the movie Titanic for the good old days of Trans Atlantic travel.

I'm sensing a pattern here, I-L-T-B. In this thread at least, your handle should read I-Like-To-Gripe.

Randya's link reminds me of some friendly, long-lost aspects of society that could enrich our outlook in our own age if we care to remind ourselves through history. I'm not suggesting we turn back the clock or tint the past with rose colors. I think the A & S forum, in addition to arguing over bike infrastructure, safety laws, helmets, traffic policies, ad nauseum, can benefit from noble thoughts like the way randya presented the video here.

Come to California,we already have one here,called Catalina Island,bring a full wallet! You can wave at the buffalo while your there.You can see where Mr. Wrigley ( think chewing gum,baseball team fame) used to hang out in the winter. They were his pet buffalo that are running around there now.Did you know buffalo have blue tongues???

OK no cars, but golf cars rule there... and they can be driven with some pretty wild abandon.

Got to admit though I have never needed a golf cart there and have quite enjoyed myself on every visit.

Used to take my SCUBA classes over there a couple times in the winter (great visibility, even in winter) and my whole family would go over for a week in the summer... it was always a blast. (would rent a house) Even when my son was a young kid of only 7 years old, we had no qualms about letting him run about on his own. There are only a few streets there where "traffic" is heavy... and even then it only moves at about 15MPH. I think the only cars were used by the police.

I have only biked there out of town... but it was a blast... especially on the "west end."

...ad nauseum, can benefit from noble thoughts like the way randya presented the video here.

What were the "noble thoughts" presented by posting a link to a video of a 100 year old street scene?


Anybody got some 100 year old videos of the street scenes of the Lower East Side of NYC, or the neighborhoods around the Chicago Meat Packing plants? Maybe some Pennsylvania or WV coal mining towns with lots of children gainfully employed. Few, if any cars will mess up the idyllic "noble thoughts" about the good old days.

If you think about, that streetcar is SLOW. If I had to use that now, it would take me 3-1/2 hours to get to work each day.

The modern fashionable word for street cars is light rail. Modern street cars are way faster but it's true they are often slow. It's most often the cars which slow them down. Sometimes tight curves too. Segregated from car traffic they can be very fast, faster than anyone can usually legally drive in cities.


The two-wheel vehicle of choice seems to be the motorized scooter. Any observations from people who have lived in or visited southern Europe?
Agree with that. Lots of scooters.

We have DART rail lines here, and they are fast. Of course, they don't meander through neighborhoods at 2-minute intervals, either.

We also have a restored trolley system. Seems like a one or two of the cars were American cars that were used in Portugal and then eventually made their way back here- and from about the time of this film.

What were the "noble thoughts" presented by posting a link to a video of a 100 year old street scene?

Anybody got some 100 year old videos of the street scenes of the Lower East Side of NYC, or the neighborhoods around the Chicago Meat Packing plants? Maybe some Pennsylvania or WV coal mining towns with lots of children gainfully employed. Few, if any cars will mess up the idyllic "noble thoughts" about the good old days.

Let me explain my point more clearly. The "noble thought" was not the film itself but rather in the words randya chose to present an old movie which would otherwise just be a view of the past. randya's thread title may be sentimental but its hopefulness demonstrates advocacy, too.

I'm guessing your bikes have the pedals connected to a crank on the chain and in the saddle :lol:

Let me explain my point more clearly. The "noble thought" was not the film itself but rather in the words randya chose to present an old movie which would otherwise just be a view of the past. randya's thread title may be sentimental but its hopefulness demonstrates advocacy, too.

I'm guessing your bikes have the pedals connected to a crank on the chain and in the saddle :lol:

Not exactly. I just don't get teary eyed when a handful of posters get in an electronic circle "hug" while imagining a "noble" idealized future based on reminiscing about a slice of a romanticized past.

Whatever spins your crank....

The modern fashionable word for street cars is light rail. Modern street cars are way faster but it's true they are often slow. It's most often the cars which slow them down. Sometimes tight curves too. Segregated from car traffic they can be very fast, faster than anyone can usually legally drive in cities.

Portland has both Light Rail and Streetcars, they are not the same.

Anybody got some 100 year old videos of the street scenes of the Lower East Side of NYC, or the neighborhoods around the Chicago Meat Packing plants? Maybe some Pennsylvania or WV coal mining towns with lots of children gainfully employed. Few, if any cars will mess up the idyllic "noble thoughts" about the good old days.

just relax and enjoy the nice video of old times :) You think too much

Anyone think these peoples biking skills needed some improvement just thinking about it from a modern pov. It's all clouded by a lot of kids on bikes and the novelty of film. The people don't even ride straight. Those old bikes were really stable compared to what is common today. Cobblestone streets are a pain to ride on. It's the place where I actually like any suspension. It's interesting how the people manage the intersections. Very chaotic but it does function really well. It's like how people would bike if cars and traffic didn't force people into the current 'traffic model'.

Portland has both Light Rail and Streetcars, they are not the same.

I have never been in Portland but I understand what you mean. Light rail vs trams. There is a lot of overlap with definitions. A lot of old tram routes had/have long parts segregated from general traffic. Sometimes by the classic tracks being covered by trees on both sides. I hear the leaves falling on the tracks is a major annoyance.

Anyone think these peoples biking skills needed some improvement just thinking about it from a modern pov. It's all clouded by a lot of kids on bikes and the novelty of film. The people don't even ride straight. Those old bikes were really stable compared to what is common today. Cobblestone streets are a pain to ride on. It's the place where I actually like any suspension. It's interesting how the people manage the intersections. Very chaotic but it does function really well. It's like how people would bike if cars and traffic didn't force people into the current 'traffic model'.

I think the important thing in the film is the speed they are operating at. The cyclists are actually the fastest, yet not one of those cyclists in the film went down on the tracks; the streetcar is slow enough it doesn't even intimidate pedestrians.

I agree about the novelty of film, it looked to me like people were hamming it up for the camera, which was probably quite large and an unusual sight given the date. The streetcar may have been going extra slow so the camera didn't shake too much.

:)

I think the important thing in the film is the speed they are operating at. The cyclists are actually the fastest, yet not one of those cyclists in the film went down on the tracks; the streetcar is slow enough it doesn't even intimidate pedestrians.

I agree about the novelty of film, it looked to me like people were hamming it up for the camera, which was probably quite large and an unusual sight given the date. The streetcar may have been going extra slow so the camera didn't shake too much.

:)

I agree about the speed issue... that in those times, everything tended to happen at a "human scale."

No cars?

That means no ambulances, no hearses, no police cars, no fire trucks, no delivery vans. .. .

No cars?

That means no ambulances, no hearses, no police cars, no fire trucks, no delivery vans. .. .

Actually, all those services existed long before motorized vehicles...