Electric Bikes - Scooter Style ebikes

I thought there'd be a few more of us on the roads. I've only seen a handful of us. Let me hear from you. I want to know what your experience has been.

It doesn't take long to figure out that they are garbage, Sold it for less than half of what i paid for it and was happy as hell.
Went to a crystalyte 5 series and can't believe i wasted the money on that POS scooter in the first place.
I dust scooters around here on a pretty regular basis now,and that's only at 36 volts..if i ran 48 volts like they have, it would be even more of a joke

not good i only had mine half the summer and it fell apart.

charger is junk. one day it Decided to over charge the 4 12v 10ah batterys. i saved them just in time.
front forks are cracked not bad if you like going face first into the pavement.
wiring is garbage. no dc to dc converter 48volt bulbs burn out hard to find replacements.

only thing left on the bike worth saving is the brushless hub controller and batterys.

total waste of money :(

problem with these bikes is Quality control. my first ride was fun after that it was all down hill. if there going to build it like a pocket bike price it as one

Those fake 'scooters' should be banned. It will happen by 2009 in Ontario. They are slow, dangerous and are being sold as bicycles when they plainly are not.

If you want to do an electric scooter then call it a scooter not a bicycle, license it and insure it and give it the speed to keep up with other scooters.

It's not an ebike!

Cleanrider,
You would probably get support without prejudice at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php or http://visforvoltage.org/ . Both forums have an open mind regarding electric scooters and bikes.

Those fake 'scooters' should be banned. It will happen by 2009 in Ontario. They are slow, dangerous and are being sold as bicycles when they plainly are not.

If you want to do an electric scooter then call it a scooter not a bicycle, license it and insure it and give it the speed to keep up with other scooters.

It's not an ebike!


Actually legally it is an ebike and since alot of ebikers rarely use the pedals, what is the difference? other than people like your self being elitist.
They can be had cheap and can be a reliable form of transport with good storage and comfort, I actually have something similar and it rarely gets used due to the fact i like to pedal BUT it is handy when I am ill or injured and I will be interested in how they can ban these and not ebikes as mine has fully functional pedal that are used on steep hills.
Your aggitating for a ban could end up affecting general ebiking big time, you may cause the registration and licencing of all ebikes or just a total ban.
Mine is a few years old with 2 or 3 thousand k's on it and no issues.
I ride it as a bike and have never had a problem with traffic or cyclists.

the screws in the pedals are rusting. It's supposed to be rain worthy. The ride is so rough on any little bump that the pedals have fallen off at times. I have to keep screwing them on. The alarm keeps going off when a fire or police siren is near by. I hit a pot hole and the alarm went beserk. I had to disconnect it. Completely gutless on hills. Sometimes I just get off and jog it up myself. Sometimes when I have the steering locked, I can't unlock it. I have to keep jigging the key.

heh i have the same problem with my ignition key. now the lock is loose lol :)

its really funny when your crossing a intersection and the bike turn off without my input. cars coming at you and your running
with a ebike between your legs. i think thats when i lost interest in it.

and my pedals also came off with my first ride. not just the pedals the crank arms also. my setup is push on pull off. but thay work better when thay fall off :)

I've put about 700 km on it. I don't know whether to cut my losses sell it in the spring. It's fine for the 3km trips to the No Frills for eggs and milk but that's about it. I need something really cheap to get around in. Maybe a smaller pedal assist bike. I dunno.

Well, if it works for you, then it works = ) don't end up changing off if you don't need anything more. On the other hand, if you long for being able to do more, go for it of course :)

Geebee, the thing about these things is that they're just not a great product in general. His concerns spur from their inability to safely or properly compete in the scooter class, while passing themselves legally in another vehicular class altogether - even while they're not really e-bikes.

Thats where my bone to pick comes from, so to say. These scooter bikes are just poor design. Too weak to truly enjoy as an electric scooter, too cumbersome and poorly designed to be enjoyed as a bicycle. A lot of them are of questionable quality. I'm often intrigued as to why there is a crowd of people who buy *bicycles*, then strap them with jury rigged motors and go through all the trouble, just to avoid pedaling.

There are some quite nice scooters and mopeds out their that feature the same mobility, but with a purpose designed chassis, safe, comfy, and practical. I don't consider people who don't make an attempt to enjoy the bicycle in e-bike to be e-bikers, rather they're scooter owners who are legally obligated to have pedals in order to avoid registration costs.

There's no elitism in what I want to see: I respect anyone's desire to have an alternative form of transportation. But i'd like to see proper equipment being offered to those with the desire, and so many of these vehicles just don't cut it.

The elitist remark was toward the poster that also contacted the goverment (another post) to have these banned which I suspect may have more reaching consequences.
In some countries ie. OZ at least n my state you require a full motorcycle licence to ride all (including 50cc ones) mopeds, scooters etc. they also require full rego and insurance.

5 series crystalyte..you will be in awe of the performance difference

The elitist remark was toward the poster that also contacted the goverment (another post) to have these banned which I suspect may have more reaching consequences.
In some countries ie. OZ at least n my state you require a full motorcycle licence to ride all (including 50cc ones) mopeds, scooters etc. they also require full rego and insurance.

If I understand correctly what you are saying is:
"I made the remark about someone being 'elitist' because the member contacted the government to have e-scooters banned based on existing law. In Australia, or at least in my state escooters require a full motorcycle license and insurance, including those vehicles with 50 cc petrol engines."

If that is the case, how is it you see me as "elitist"?

Try quoting accurately and it will make sense.
You wish low powered e-scooters banned from being classed as e-bikes, the definition between the 2 is very very fine.
If the goverment can ban the low powered e-scoots I suspect the e-bikes will be included, try legally wording it to dis-allow only scooter like e-bikes and not include any that you qualify as e-bikes in a manner that will be enforcable.
The elitism is that you are fine with your definition on an e-bike but only the bikes that you feel qualify, sounds a lot like the attitude of cyclists that scorn e-bikes, doesn't it? In what way are they currently illegal?
If they are banned for arguments sake in Oz then those that wish to ride them will have to jump through the hoops and spend a fortune as described in the previous post.

Try quoting accurately and it will make sense.
You wish low powered e-scooters banned from being classed as e-bikes, the definition between the 2 is very very fine.
If the goverment can ban the low powered e-scoots I suspect the e-bikes will be included, try legally wording it to dis-allow only scooter like e-bikes and not include any that you qualify as e-bikes in a manner that will be enforcable.
The elitism is that you are fine with your definition on an e-bike but only the bikes that you feel qualify, sounds a lot like the attitude of cyclists that scorn e-bikes, doesn't it? In what way are they currently illegal?
If they are banned for arguments sake in Oz then those that wish to ride them will have to jump through the hoops and spend a fortune as described in the previous post.

This is taken as part of the reply recieved by Lowell in the ministry's reply.

E-bikes, like conventional bikes, are designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power. We are aware of some scooters that have had non-operational pedals attached for aesthetic purposes, in an attempt to circumvent the licensing and insurance requirements for scooters. An e-bike must have pedals. If these are removed, it is no longer an e-bike. If stopped by police, a person riding one of these devices without pedals could face charges of having no licence plate and no insurance.

I don't think there's any elitism in what he's saying. To a degree, these systems go against the Ministry of Transportations own definition itself, that they're designed with pedals primarily to bypass laws and to be counted as an "e-bike"

When you look at the systems themselves, the pedals are attached and "functional", the latter term being used in a loose sense - these vehicles are not designed with adequate human propulsion in mind, and are quite literally marketed as e-bikes when they *are* indeed scooters, with a little legal bypass to put them into the e-bike category. Were I the Minister of Transportation, trust me geebee, I wouldn't allow them to be putting these things on the streets any more than these 60kph bicycles some people ride. Not without being known and licensed for what they properly are, which is scooters, mopeds, and motorbikes. These are no bicycles. Banned? no. But properly designed and registered *for what it is*, yes. Absolutely.

Its not a case of "lolol, stupid scooter e-bike", its a case of these things being utterly unsuitable as true bicycles, failed as e-bikes, and abusing the system. There comes a time when its *not* a bike anymore, and many of these systems *should* fall well beyond that threshold.

You do realise that alot of Sla bikes are barely functional without their assist especially in hilly terrain?
For legal purposes defining the cutoff point is going to be a nightmare?
I personally have no issue either way but think that anyone trying to seperate the 2 are going to cause problems for all.
For arguements sake if I fit an 8 speed hub to the drive on an e-scoot and some else has a single speed e-bike with long range sla's which one is legal under your definition?
Oh and all of them that I have seen have pedals that do work.

Karma mentions that the pedals are push on, push off on his model. That would certainly be one place to start. Apparently, they've not even got a decent locking mechanism, so a proper quick release like those on folding bicycle pedals would be a start.

Secondly, I've used a Crystalyte in tandem with a 48v/10a SLA pack that weighed about 40lbs total, and it wasn't too much to handle as a bicycle, so I don't personally believe that it takes a battery alone to reach the point of exclusion. Most non-cyclists I know of are unable to safely handle a weighted bicycle with more than 50-60lbs of equipment loaded on, and counting a high weight bicycle, say 40lbs, that puts a reasonable cycling limit at about 100lbs.

At the moment, the current unloaded weight limit is 75kg, a limit which has allowed riders to pack enough equipment onto their vehicles in order to make them fairly unsafe, and while I care for one's own right to endanger themselves, there is *no* such sympathy towards those who endanger others. In our local store, there's a booklet of various "e-bikes" all weighing in over 50kg, some packing it in right *at* the 75kg mark. I consider *that* to be too heavy to be acceptable. This isn't beginning to account for rider skill, true. But living in a state society, our legal boundaries are defined on a generic measure rather than an informal and restorative one: basically, the bottom line has to be one that covers the masses, not the exceptions.

While you say that "a lot of SLA vehicles are barely functional without their electric assist, particularily in hilly terrain", you have 3 reports of these vehicles breaking down right here in this thread, and one of them being unable to climb what sounds like a large variety of hills, and "being jogged up"

That sounds like barely functional *with* their electric assist.

Other vehicles go through some fairly strict quality control before hitting the streets, sadly this doesn't apply to these e-bikes and scooters. However, i'd like to see a less lenient weight limit, a proper power to weight ratio, and reliability testing performed before these products hit the shelves. There are already panels out there which perform the same task for other powered vehicles, it would simply be a matter of application.

As for your theoretical question, how much SLA do you have to pack onto a single speed bike in order to meet the weight of your e-scoot, and do you know the strength ratio of the average 8 speed internal hub? As long as the singlespeed was proven to be within the weight limit of its frame, I would consider it to be a far more reliable option, as these e-scoots are *proven* unreliable and overweight already.

Hm. I just looked at Veloteq's website actually, and all of their models (save one) are actually *over* the legal weight limit for an e-bike in Canada, in the first place, all by a kg or two.

My guess is that they shave a few pounds somewhere before shipping here. But now, back to that theoretical question, taking into account the average singlespeed, you'd need about 140lbs of SLA in order to have the same weight, which is something the average bicycle frame wouldn't withstand when put into play with the typical rider's weight.

A hub gearing system like a Nexus or an SRAM wouldn't stand that punishment for prolonged use either, not unless you used something like a P5 Cargo or a Rohloff.

75kg/165lbs is far too much for the average guy to call a rideable bike, when you consider that thats *base* functionality, not even starting to meet domestic purposes.

Sorry' I was basing the question around my e-scoot which weighs 40 kg ready to ride and is simple and reliable.
Mine has too wide a Q for comfort but there are several down here of similar weight and normal pedal Q (width) still fully faired scooters.
If pedaled with the assist why would the hub have issues?

I could easily tranfer the running gear into my folding bike the only advantage would be easier to pedal due to the lower Q and a weight drop of maybe 5Kg ~ 8kg's and a loss of suspension, storage compartments, weather protection, indicators, horn,lights etc.

Again this is my least used ride but how do you legislate one and not the other?

Ya know, one of my fantasies for a while has been a trike made to fit a lazyboy recliner chair with maybe something like a my1018 or something mounted on maybe a 3 speed hub, token pedals, beverage holders. The whole kitted out to be 100% legal as a power assist, since it's likely to get pulled over a lot. Man would that ever be cool.

Legislate one, but not the other? E-bikes are currently as legislated, as they should be, the guidelines are just considerably simpler than some other vehicular guidelines are. I don't wish to create a separate class, so much as make sure that these vehicles are properly placed in their correct categories. Forgive me, but I don't believe that 165lb scooters are correctly labeled as bicycles.

I've 2 formal, regulated suggestions, and one informal suggestion. One might say that this task is insurmountable, but government transportation agencies have long practiced the art of classification.

The simplest way would be to begin with requiring the manufacturer to provide proof that the pedals and drivetrain are not only functional but fully adequate for use in a consistent application. They'd need to have some sort of semi-permanent attachment system, like as mentioned - those featured on some folding bicycles.

Secondly, the weight limit needs to be revised and based upon the abilities of an "average" test group - no gathering up 30 seasoned bike tourers, i'm talking about pulling a pool of random subjects. Figure out what the typical reasonable weight limit is to take a bicycle through an obstacle course designed to test rider ability, and work with that number. I'm almost certain that a reasonable number for a typical 2 wheeled bicycle would be *nowhere* near the current limit of 165lbs at a low speed. There's a far cry between riding a 165lb motor vehicle and pedaling one, and no electric vehicle should be allowed to circumvent that distinction. Add a second classification for vehicles with 3 or more wheels, with the same electric restrictions and requirements, but a different distinct and tested weight limit.

Thirdly, quality control needs to be done. From what I understand, many of these things cost many times what a basic electric kit does, but provide poor value in comparison. While this is something that is difficult to enforce officially, in a sort of way its up to those who already have the experience in these products to help guide people - weed out bad ones, promote good ones. This is a relatively new field for North America, and unfortunately quality is something where minimal quality is often a disappointment for new buyers. Help people out with making good choices!

Hello there....first time poster here.

I an a VERY happy owner of a Veloteq Cavalier. I will say now that there is no way in heck that you can convince me that they are "junk" when they are quite clearly the best ones in Canada to date. I have tried others....they do not come close. I have not had any problems whatsoever.

I will admit there are a few things that need to be addressed for future models. The pedals on my model are too far apart since the body is kinda wide...watching someone pedal result in hilarity for sure. They have never fallen off.....but I leave them off most of the time.

Going uphill is a joke....but a new motor that is coming out is going to fix that. I have already pre-ordered the new motor from a friend that works on these bikes.......and even he says that of all of the bikes that he has sold about 2% of them are Veloteqs.

Veloteq is a GREAT company. When I repainted my E-Bike ( NOT an E-Scooter ) I asked Veloteq to send me some replacement decals and asked how much they would cost. I gave them my address and a week later they send me a rather fat envelope....with contained FOUR sets of decals.....when I only asked for a couple. They sent me a simple letter with the decals:


Dear Adam

Accidents happen...so here are a few more sets of decals for your Cavalier. Have Fun!

Now THAT is a company that cares about its customers and products.

I am the ONLY one with a E-Bike in my town. Yet people love it!! They are all asking me where to get ones of their own and I tell them. It is winter here in Ontario so no one has any out but I am 100% sure that I will see more in the area.

not to worry no one here is singling out any one company for the problems. its china made ebikes that make it over the border with Questionable Quality. im sure veloteq is a good company and thay did there homework before selling them. quality being there main Concern. dont forget if you live in canada by law
you need to ride with the pedals on. without you will get pulled over riding a unplatted moped. and the fines are high.

cheers

Ah nuts. Those things are SUCH a nuisance but if they must be on then I will put them back on. They really need to fold in more or something because they love to drag on the ground when I turn.

Thanks for the heads up though. I appreciate it. How much would the fine be?

thay rang from $250 to $2,500. one thing i did was make the two crank arms face the same way up. and
ran a piece of string to keep them from turning down. its within the law and its safe.

cheers

Good idea. Thanks!

So I take it that you also have a Veloteq?

I own a Challenger here in Toronto. I bought it from Segway of Ontario, the Veloteq dealer. It was one of their summer rentals, so I bought this used bike cheap. So far, it has given great value! Before the storm I was biking every day to wherever I had to go.

I'll probably be out again tomorrow, since the government should have the roads ploughed. It is my intention to ebike all winter wherever I have to go. Unless there is really bad weather like today, when I'll take the TTC instead.

Kevin

Ya, put the pedals back on or you will be paying a fine. I mentioned the problems with the 'scooter/ebike' but overall it is a pretty good machine. It is good for short trips and just getting out for a ride.

Heh. I took mine for a ride one day and ended up in Durham. From Markdale to Durham and back on a Ebike. Quite a lot of fun except for the morons honking their horns at me. Surprisingly it did NOT drain the battery!!!

Well, its good to hear that the Veloteq scooters might be a bit better than some of the other ones i've seen. This guy brought one into Power in Motion when I was in one time, and his bottom bracket had broken free within his frame. I don't even know *how* you can do that, but thats not good.

Curious though, about how much do each of your bikes weigh, are they comfortable to pedal, and how well do they handle under human power?

I took my girlfriend to the store on the back of my 'Xtra the other day, first time we've done it. Definetly an interesting riding experience, as she had no idea how to properly balance on the bike! :D

Actually I NEVER pedal my Veloteq Cavalier. To wide to peddle. I only use the Electric Power.

Actually I NEVER pedal my Veloteq Cavalier. Too wide to peddle. I only use the Electric Power.

That makes it an electric scooter then, not a bicycle since the primary power on an e-bike must be provided by muscular power. That's the way it is in Ontario and I am happy with that definition and the special treatment I receive under the law because I pedal.

I think that adequately powered electric scooters have their place on the roads of our province, but they shouldn't pretend to be bicycles.

No. It is an E-BIKE...not an electric SCOOTER.

It is just a matter of option. You can peddle it or use just the electric part. Please look again at the defination of an E-Bike.

No. It is an E-BIKE...not an electric SCOOTER.

It is just a matter of option. You can peddle it or use just the electric part. Please look again at the defination of an E-Bike.

Please read these FAQ's (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/e-bike-faq.htm#1)about ebikes in Ontario and then read the minister's letter stating that ebikes must be primarily muscle powered.

What is the problem? To me the legislation is clear. E scooter owners should be lobbying to get more powerful motors so you can keep up with traffic, not hassling ebike owners. We are not the problem. We like you. Really:>

LOL!!!! Well to me it will always be an E-Bike.....but I value your opinion as well. Thank you.

That makes it an electric scooter then, not a bicycle since the primary power on an e-bike must be provided by muscular power. That's the way it is in Ontario and I am happy with that definition and the special treatment I receive under the law because I pedal.

Keep in mind that the law in ontario is not the law worldwide. Many places outside ontario do not define an "e-bike" in terms of what the "primary power" source is. Even if they do, people in will continue to ride without getting exercise, on e-bikes that work when you pedal without actually contributing any power, or work without any pedaling at all. I don't think that the exercise aspect has much to do with the reasons behind vehicle laws-- much more relevant is a vehicle's ability to do damage to people other than the owner (which is what liability insurance is all about) and that is a factor of speed and weight.

I care little for whether someone pedals or not. While someone is not cycling or using their "e-bike" as a bike, it matters little aside from befitting someone's nitpicking. However, if it is to be known as an e-bike, it must be useful as a bicycle. Adequately capable of traversing a typical urban environment on human power alone, in other words.

However, on cerewa's mention of impact and weight, its worth noting that many of these scooter bikes pack 100+lbs more potential than a typical "true" bicycle e-bike does. Thats a whole lot more potential for carnage.

Hi, I just signed up for the forum. I have been riding a Veloteq bike since last December, it was actually one of the first 3 bikes in Ontario last year. I would just like to reply to some of the comments made so far regarding scooter style e-bikes. In Ontario the MTO pilot program use's the Federal definition to define e-bike. I attached the definition.

Some people veiw the scooter style as a threat to the traditional image of a bike, do some searches and you find some pretty interesting bike designs. The key to the definition is limited power, limited Speed, not what it looks like. Weight has been sited as a safty factor. Do the calculations. A 170 lbs rider pedaling a 30lbs non assist bike at 40km or a 165lbs, soft panaled scooter with a 170 lbs rider traveling at 32km. I suspect that the kinetic energy created at the high velocity of the lighter bike will be very close if not higher then the heavier soft paneled scooter.

If you look at the bigger picture, this is not about just traditionl style bikes. The market acceptance and need for the scooter style ebike is huge. The Bike lanes and paths that are being developed with tax payers money need to be used and have a right to be used by all taxpayers, not just traditional looking bikes. This will allow better development of bike lanes and benifit everyone.

On quality

There are quite a few choices of scooter style bikes available in Ontario and yes there are some very cheap models. Shop around, test ride the bikes, visit the dealers service area. If they don't have one find out about your options. I have seen 1st year bikes with over 2000KM in almost showroom condition. I have also seen bikes with under 200km look like there 3 years old and have been stored outside for 3 years. If you ride a scooter style bike like a pedal powered Mn't bike it won't hold up very well. Treat it well and do some bascic maintenace and you should have very few problems.


Pete

Some people veiw the scooter style as a threat to the traditional image of a bike, do some searches and you find some pretty interesting bike designs. The key to the definition is limited power, limited Speed, not what it looks like. Weight has been sited as a safty factor. Do the calculations. A 170 lbs rider pedaling a 30lbs non assist bike at 40km or a 165lbs, soft panaled scooter with a 170 lbs rider traveling at 32km. I suspect that the kinetic energy created at the high velocity of the lighter bike will be very close if not higher then the heavier soft paneled scooter.
Pete

Hi Golectric. You have to take the same speeds into consideration if you're going to be performing kinetic potential comparisons. Another thing to note, is that when looking at the mainstream population, their maintained speeds are actually 20-25kph, considerably *lower* than that which a scooter bike would produce on average. 40kph is an example of an athletic road biker, a "non common" example that can *easily* be counterbalanced with examples of e-bikers overvolting their systems.

If you're going to be doing calculations, it has to be without a spin. On average, I think you'll find the moving speed of a bicycle to be lower than that of an assisted variant, making your comparison highly skewed.

Thus, when you're looking at things from an even perspective, without spin, thats an entirely false notion.

The issue really, is that there *arent* any "bikes" out there that come anywhere near 170lbs. The average "bicycle" e-bike measures between 45-70lbs. My system can actually probably be considered one of the heavier ones out there (a steel MTB, Crystalyte, and Xtracycle), and together they all come in at 54lbs pre-battery. I've not got a battery at the moment, but even if I decided to go for the absolute heaviest commercial product out there, the bike would come in at 80lbs.

The only way that I could get this system *anywhere* near the comparative weight of a scooter bike would be by packing things into the Xtracycle. In this case, I could easily push vehicle weight to 250lbs, but that would be a skewed comparison, as a 170lb scooter bike carrying the same gear would push 340. At that point in time, the handling on my X' would be close to that of a vespa style scooter, and the scooter bike would be moving like it was a motorcycle.

There isn't any sort of threat between the two, as the design of the former is built around offering people a scooter style riding position and a more "vehicular" aesthetic.

On the subject of bike paths, I honestly must disagree with you. Safety has precedence over a notion to take e-bikes of any sort onto a bike path which is often occupied with children, joggers, and recreational cyclists. The odds of a 170lb bicycle moving considerably faster than the local traffic, and being safe, are exceptionally slim. Its not a question of aesthetics, its a question of turning yourself into a fast moving brick in a crowd of comparatively slow, unwary targets.

This is an electric scooter:


December 21, 2007

NYPD Going Green on Electric Scooters
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 2:40 p.m. ET

NEW YORK (AP) -- Police working to keep the city safer will be trying to keep it greener too -- by testing an electric, ultra-quiet scooter.

Four plug-in Vectrix scooters will be road tested starting early next month as the New York Police Department tries to become more environmentally friendly and reduce gasoline use in its massive motor fleet.

The nation's largest police department already uses a handful of hybrid cars and so-called flex-fuel vehicles, which can run on both gasoline and ethanol.

''Police effectiveness comes first, but where we can combine environmentally friendly vehicles without compromising the mission, we do,'' Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said.

The sleek, two-wheel Vectrix scooters are the first all-electric vehicles to be government-certified to travel on any highway, street or road, said Andrew MacGowen, president of the Rhode Island-based company.

The NYPD says officers use the current fleet of regular-fuel scooters to patrol city parks, police street demonstrations or direct traffic.

The Vectrix has a top speed of more than 60 mph and is recharged by plugging it in a standard outlet for two hours. Its higher purchase price compared to other scooters would be quickly offset by the fuel savings, the department said.

Detective Derek Siconolfi, who will train riders, suggested the quiet engines also offer a side benefit: the element of surprise.

''You could easily sneak up on somebody if they don't expect it,'' he said.

------

A spin is certainly not what I am trying to do with my calculations. I have seen first hand what petal bikes can do around pedestrians. Your attempt to play the safety card is based on speculation not fact. It is actually much safer to share the path with speed limited scooters then a bunch of riders flying down the path on their petal powered open frame bikes, they will not slow down when they pass because it takes to much energy to get back up to speed. The full lighting and signal system's on the closed frame scooters make for a very visible rider. It really comes down to the individual rider, scooter style or open frame, if you ride like an idiot, someone will get hurt. I have rode both styles. I enjoy my open frame ebikes but when I need some extra storage and comfort for my ride I hop on my Scooter style E-bike.

Pete

Hi, I just signed up for the forum. I have been riding a Veloteq bike since last December, it was actually one of the first 3 bikes in Ontario last year. I would just like to reply to some of the comments made so far regarding scooter style e-bikes. In Ontario the MTO pilot program use's the Federal definition to define e-bike. I attached the definition.

Some people veiw the scooter style as a threat to the traditional image of a bike, do some searches and you find some pretty interesting bike designs. The key to the definition is limited power, limited Speed, not what it looks like. Weight has been sited as a safty factor. Do the calculations. A 170 lbs rider pedaling a 30lbs non assist bike at 40km or a 165lbs, soft panaled scooter with a 170 lbs rider traveling at 32km. I suspect that the kinetic energy created at the high velocity of the lighter bike will be very close if not higher then the heavier soft paneled scooter.

If you look at the bigger picture, this is not about just traditionl style bikes. The market acceptance and need for the scooter style ebike is huge. The Bike lanes and paths that are being developed with tax payers money need to be used and have a right to be used by all taxpayers, not just traditional looking bikes. This will allow better development of bike lanes and benifit everyone.

On quality

There are quite a few choices of scooter style bikes available in Ontario and yes there are some very cheap models. Shop around, test ride the bikes, visit the dealers service area. If they don't have one find out about your options. I have seen 1st year bikes with over 2000KM in almost showroom condition. I have also seen bikes with under 200km look like there 3 years old and have been stored outside for 3 years. If you ride a scooter style bike like a pedal powered Mn't bike it won't hold up very well. Treat it well and do some bascic maintenace and you should have very few problems.


Pete

Well said and 100% agree with you. Also your name sounds familier.....do you have a website for Ebikes? Golectric.com????

A spin is certainly not what I am trying to do with my calculations. I have seen first hand what petal bikes can do around pedestrians. Your attempt to play the safety card is based on speculation not fact. It is actually much safer to share the path with speed limited scooters then a bunch of riders flying down the path on their petal powered open frame bikes, they will not slow down when they pass because it takes to much energy to get back up to speed. The full lighting and signal system's on the closed frame scooters make for a very visible rider. It really comes down to the individual rider, scooter style or open frame, if you ride like an idiot, someone will get hurt. I have rode both styles. I enjoy my open frame ebikes but when I need some extra storage and comfort for my ride I hop on my Scooter style E-bike.

Pete

If a spin is not what you're trying to do, then don't make an uneven comparison.

There is certainly *no* speculation behind the weight of a scooter bike. I do not take them to the moon to weigh them either. They weigh considerably more than any other common human powered vehicle I can think of. At a comparative speed, this means that the human body needs to exert more energy to retain the same control and performance, that the handling characteristics require more energy to both slow and start. There is no speculation behind this science.

Your statement that "It is actually much safer to share the path with speed limited scooters then a bunch of riders flying down the path on their petal powered open frame bikes, they will not slow down when they pass because it takes to much energy to get back up to speed"

Could easily be taken as a speculative statement as well, as it relies upon a biased opinion around the behaviour of a rider, not the relative capability of their vehicle. Now i'm sorry, but *thats* speculative, I personally consider it utter bull excrement.

As you've said, if you ride like an idiot, someone will get hurt. On the subject of bike paths, here in Canada they have speed limits. As mentioned before, both a roadie and an e-bike modder have the ability to far exceed typical speeds, but in comparison to the average cyclist, an e-bike moves considerably faster.

But that does not change the fact that in a situation where there are other users about on human powered vehicles of similar capacity, bringing in a bike with 140+lbs of additional weight and often a poor Q rated, insufficient pedal system means that this vehicle is essentially a fish out of water in the particular situation. While the pedal situation might vary from model to model, the weight is not speculative or in question.

These vehicles might be acceptable in a utilitary street side bike lane, but on a recreational path where you are faced with close, dual direction traffic with different types of bicycles and pedestrians, they simply don't belong.

Digi Kid, Yep thats me

Abneycat, Whatever :)
Is it OK to ride an open frame e-bike on bike paths or do you think all electric bikes should be banned from bike paths?

I no longer ride bike paths with my pedal bikes at all due to the speed differential and idiot factor on bike paths.
I do actually ride the e-scoot on then occationally (maybe 10% of the time) as it is easier to just motor along at the average speed of the other users and you are not hyped up about how fast you can pedal/endorphins/adrenaline.
My 40 kg scoot can do 30~35 kph flat out my velomobile can sit on 45 Kph cruising without great effort and will sprint a hell of a lot faster.
My road bike was a bit slower but not alot and the brakes suck on most road bikes.
Which do you think is safer on a bike path? I have ridden both and made an educated decision.

Ultimately if an idiot is riding the bike they are all dangerous to others, and there appears to be a higher idiot quotient on bike paths.

Digi Kid, Yep thats me

Abneycat, Whatever :)
Is it OK to ride an open frame e-bike on bike paths or do you think all electric bikes should be banned from bike paths?

Well, trying to call someone on "speculative" reasoning, being faced with a retort, then returning with "whatever" isn't terribly constructive towards a good discussion.

However, on the subject of bike paths, I personally think anyone endangering others is being nothing but a selfish/ignorant "individual". This includes dumb roadies with their iPods on, barreling through kids on trikes at 40kph just as it does people performing the same act with 170lb scooters at 32kph. So far as open frame e-bikes is concerned, at that same speed they likely promise a similar danger, with a moderately reduced kinetic potential, although one can't generalize about stopping power/maneuverability between models, there could be cases where a scooter bike may stop better than a particular e-bike, and it could be reversed just as easily.

I don't think that people should be riding motorized vehicles down recreational bike paths/MUP's in general. Vehicular bike lanes, go for it. People ride their SUV's down those lanes anyways, it seems, but thats a different gripe.

As i've said, aside from these guys screaming along on their CF bikes, which seems to be the topic of contrast, most people on recreational paths are moving at a much lower speed, often with kids/dogs, joggers and so on.

There's no law to keep you off these paths. But if you think you're being safe, people have been killed by being slammed into by morons on 15lb paperweight bikes before. I'm waiting to see the mess one of these things makes to someone.

Just another thought exercise, if those killed by bikes hitting them are killed by the impact of the bike and not the resultant fall being thrown, a scooter with its wider, softer, smoother fairings may well limited the damage and even the distance a person is thrown will greatly reduce as if you look under the front fairings on most e-scooters the supports are light and easily deformed ie. crumple zones.
That had not occurred to me previously but it lessens the likley hood of major saftey issues on bike paths, still the main problem is the person riding not the bike.
On the flip side the way the brakes were setup on my e-scoot when recieved was appalling, they would barely stop it but with a bit of tuning etc. they are quite powerful now. A new user may not realise the problems or solutions until to late.
A good reason to buy from a reputable dealer unless you are good with bikes.

Yeah, unfortunately a lot of bikes and products come really poorly setup. I've found there are people who ride one of my bikes and are actually surprised that the drivetrain is *quiet* and everything works.

I suppose that comes down to a question which could really be only answered on a per-case basis by professional analysts and physicists (fairings vs. weight during impact). You may be partially right in some cases, if someone is for instance hit in the face with someone's bullhorn on the handlebar as opposed to a plastic fairing.

I'm not opposed to the idea of scooter bikes, so much as the iterations *of* scooters bikes i've seen. I think they should be operable as a bicycle, and built with a better level of quality control. Some of these 170lb systems with poor Q rates and drivetrain designs are simply not acceptable as bicycles.

No, I don't think they should be on bike paths, but neither should anyone riding over a speed in which you can no longer safely interact with the *whole* speed range, and movement patterns of every rider involved. That counts for iPod idiots, speedsters, e-bikers in general, name it.

On the other hand, some of these products that people say are pretty good, hey, if thats what they want, go for it.

OK, Sorry for the Whatever but my time was limited to post:)

Scooter Ebikes can safley mingle with pedestrians and other bikes it just depends on the rider. I love to set my cruise control between 15 and 20km somtimes and just enjoy the ride. Ipod earphones should not be worn by riders or runners or anyone that should be aware of the suroundings, people have bit hit by trains while wearing them.

I quite agree. They should be illegal on any bike...electric or not IMHO.