Mountain Biking - Lets debunk tire tread design myths.

Exactly that. Go.

Edit:
Q:?
-That tire tread design on slick-semislick tires are purely cosmetic, this includes water channels.
-That mtb tires with obvious chevron treads have no merit to chevron direction (Can be reversed).
-That the main center contact area is the only part to ridden of the tire, side tread designs are useless.
-That rubber quality does not differ between tires and companies.
-That knobbies vs\ angle chevrons have virtually no difference.

Please feel free to post YOUR questions, opinions, observances and factoids.

Thanks>jef.

First name a myth and what tire.

Why?
It's already been done http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

why are treads angled, what are the specific conditions expected and performance capabilities of specific tread designs.

Some tires based on their designs and durometer work better in certain conditions. Some manufacturers design tires for mud, some loose conditions, some hard pack, some rocks, and some ice. Then there is road conditons.

Specific-Some designers of tires include x-specifics, is this a market implemented 'visual' tread design idea or mechanical performance. IYO.
MTB specific as it is varied-road has been pretty much perfected.

I definately have no knowledge on tires. I buy a tire, if it works I use it, if I feel the slightest spinout in situations where I know I don't spin out. I toss it. No exactly science :)

Jeff, I know nothing about road tires, but have they really been perfected. They don't have different treads for rain etc?

did my science fair project on this. so whatever i say below is scientifically proven my me or some other dude in a lab.

tires that have three lines of tred (thats about 80% of them, they look like this / | \ or \ | /) are made for mountain biking. you can change yours by flipping your tires around. the first design will give you better speed, not very big difference, but better speed. the second one will give you better traction.

those are the two normal mountain biking tire arrangments, there changed by simply flipping them around, not too complicated now is it? this popular tread has been adopted for hybrid tires and for some road bike tires.

very thick tires will sometimes have four marksmaking it look something like this \ \ / / or / / \ \. same thing from above, the second design will give you better speed. the first one has better traction and handling.

the above statements are very minor. this is because the art of the tire has been perfected so well. anyone who tells treads pointing up gives u better speed really is stupid. its a fraction of 1 mph.

treads do affect slighttly and on paper your peformance, but nothing noticable. i find the material that the tire is made out of is more important. also the depth of it matters too. many times the depth will be more for tires meant for mud and wet conditions.

Contact area- I ride all over the side of my tire when cornering (Mtb) I assume this is why the treads cover more than the center\highest part of the tire.

-How does one corner at 25+mph and not lean and shift the bike to go off the main contact area of the tire. (25 mph and just turn the wheel whatever direction you want to go-BAD MOVE.)

The tread design on semi-slick tires is to help keep the orientation of the contact, you can FEEL the tire correcting, OR it could help in loose gravel.
IMO-slick tires blow- if any conditions arise outside of road surface (gravel,wet leaves,grass,mud,snow.) their ability to remain in contact is compromised. I am not willing to give up control and versatility for speed.

Tread direction- chevrons if reversed, will make different facets of the tread come in contact with the road surface. the tire does not roll off the design correctly (angled chevron specific) If reversed will have more traction but will be very slow as the tread is grabbing, not rolling.

Confession: I ride mtb tires on pavement. I have tried many tires, I use a softer rubber mtb tire with 3 tread designs. The tires are inflated to close to max psi on asphalt.
Why?- A condition I have noticed exists when cornering that if a small rock\s are under the main contact area of your tire, If you area not in a vertical bike\rider position
(which you are NOT when cornering @ a high speed) for the rocks to shoot out from under the tire.
This causes the tire to jump\skip to the side. Possible conditions for accident.
I find that a mtb tire\ specifically the squared knobbed cluster treads have probably 5-7 contact points. if 1-2 are compromised you still have some part of the tire in contact with the road surface.
Not as much of a difference with the angled chevron stripe or s-elongated treads.
Slicks, the whole tire moves.

I find the slicks are very much prone to the problems above.

Ideally a tire only experiences conditions its meant for, but conditions arise that demand aggressive design implementation to effect control in varied situations.
XC- all the way baby.. ;)

I'm a woozy from the nights debauchery-I will re-read and post later. MEDIC! :(

Err-Had to edit this post, I pasted Sheldons statements edited, Probably not acceptable.
Guess you'll have to read all of it. Click the link Raiyn has provided, Thanks-I was familiar, forgot others may not have read.

Applies generally to all makes. I agree and use ideas proposed by Mr.Brown. Some of the statements are observations that conclude in his very well informed OPINION. Not scientific facts\ and if a designer such as Tom Ritchey put grooves\treads on his tire-I assume his knowledge of bike racing tire requirements is probably superior to Mr.Browns as he was the person recieving research data for 20+ years.

Sheldon is THE bike guru. Yes I agree with pretty much all, but.....I can't see Mr.Brown shooting a loose dirt ravine @ top DH speed. And as I push- Carefully- the bike to higher performance design (Them ain't stock parts!) I have to use information to adapt to the conditions I will face.
Both information I get from experienced riders\members here\Sheldon Brown and MY own observations from riding constantly and often changing components (in this case tires.) Has resulted in my decisions regarding my needs vs\ riding style\terrain.

***I would NOT advise an inexperienced rider to alter his\her bike manufactures design.****

One other BF member-experienced mtb rider (probably more so than I) confirmed that he rides a non-traditional combination suggested in Sheldons info. Yes, it CAN be done. I didn't do it because it was suggested- the bike required this to respond correctly in advanced rider conditions.

The edge that wins a race may be an altered component in a factory design.
Example: My mtb came with stock 170mm cranks (most do.) we do not all have the same length leg-Standardization. I should run 165mm by measure (close.)-I would race 175mm or longer.

Peace>Jef.

If you are checking back, the first post now contains:
Q:?
-That tire tread design on slick-semislick tires are purely cosmetic, this includes water channels.
-That mtb tires with obvious chevron treads have no merit to chevron direction (Can be reversed).
-That the main center contact area is the only part to ridden of the tire, side tread designs are useless.
-That rubber quality does not differ between tires and companies.
-That knobbies vs\ angle chevrons have virtually no difference.

Please feel free to post YOUR questions, opinions, observances and factoids.

I'm pretty much like Maelstrom. Unfortunately since tubeless tires are so expensive I can't really afford to try too many tubeless tires these days, so I have to rely on recommendations by friends and various other people. If I like the way the tire feels, I'll ride it. If not, I'll try something else.

when I am cornering I keep my body upright to keep the body weight on the center of the tire contact with the surface I am riding.since going to this type of body position at higher speeds my wipe outs have been reduced TREMENDOUSLY.i go to mtb.review,look for riders with my same type of style and conditions, then see what they ride,then look for the best price on it.I am waiting on some reviews on panaracer "cinders" now or i will get another set of trailblasters(I know most of you hate them but they are the best tire ive ever ridden) cuz they only get about 500 miles before they wear out and im above 300 now.I agree compound and tread design makes a big difference but so does technique

I always found that off-road knobs fared worse in street cornering due to small rocks or ridges in the road. I think part of it is that you might have very slight but rapid up and down motion while corniering...addin a rock to throw that a bit, and you have a back wheel that just either got air or broke loose. For that reason i like any semi slick that uses indentations for grip in corners and not raised knobs.

I wouldn't call tread design on multi-purpose semi-slicks useless, since the trad is often designed to be suitable for some off-road use (given you run the tire at a lower PSI...just beware of pinch flats). For street tires, tread designs are purely cosmetic.

Rubber is pretty much the same everywhere, now the quality of their vulcanizing could have lead to this belief. Vulcanizing of course being the bonding of two rubber components useing pressureized rubber as an adhesive. If they used bad dies, or jsut had bad quality control, someone could very well get a tire that will fail early on. that has nothing to do with teh rubber though, it's all in the quality of the shop that made it.

Side tread designs tend ot make any significant difference in corners, and often the knob type are not suitable for road cornering at high speed....so in the case of semi-slicks with knobbby sides...I wouldn't reccomend those to anyone.

Really I wnat to know if the sidewall designs make any real difference outside of weight, like having blackwall, gumwall, or fabric sides? I keep hearing claims of less rolling resistnace from this....for some reason i have my doubts.

"Really I wnat to know if the sidewall designs make any real difference outside of weight, like having blackwall, gumwall, or fabric sides? I keep hearing claims of less rolling resistnace from this....for some reason i have my doubts."Quote>Cat a tonic.

The Kevlar wall of IRC mythosXC seems stronger than Panaracers I've used.
After flats the P's would collapse like dragster tires. I felt I didn't even want to roll them on the rim home (sub 25 lbs bike.) Super thin.
IRC tires nicer, lighter, but I won't know until I've had them months and more varied conditions as to the durability.

"I always found that off-road knobs fared worse in street cornering due to small rocks or ridges in the road. I think part of it is that you might have very slight but rapid up and down motion while corniering...addin a rock to throw that a bit, and you have a back wheel that just either got air or broke loose. For that reason I like any semi slick that uses indentations for grip in corners and not raised knobs"
Quote>Cat a tonic.

Compared to a slick in these conditiond the mtb tread does better IMO. And yes, rock, ridges and the unforeseen and unseen.>jef.


The tires I've been 'testing' have a round profile. Front and rear, the front requires IMO that it be rounder, the treads to be arranged in chevrons-not of strips or chevron ribs. The first outer tread is followed by on placed higher on the tire profile behind and again, meeting the paddle or raised main contact area.
-Compared to rear that have 2 outside treads with an offset tread behind the chevron.
Hard to describe...anyway, the higher speed road cornering improved with this setup.
Specific the tread is directing the forces across the tire as it turns.
A more square profile or arrangements of 2 or more treads outer and not arranged in chevron felt under controlled.

"For that reason i like any semi slick that uses indentations for grip in corners and not raised knobs." Quote>Cat a tonic.
Hmmm. Perhaps not cosmetic.>jef.

Rear left. Right also rear, because of the design IMO can run front.

when I am cornering I keep my body upright to keep the body weight on the center of the tire contact with the surface I am riding.since going to this type of body position at higher speeds my wipe outs have been reduced TREMENDOUSLY.i go to mtb.review,look for riders with my same type of style and conditions, then see what they ride,then look for the best price on it.I am waiting on some reviews on panaracer "cinders" now or i will get another set of trailblasters(I know most of you hate them but they are the best tire ive ever ridden) cuz they only get about 500 miles before they wear out and im above 300 now.I agree compound and tread design makes a big difference but so does technique

I am in line with the frame, it's in line with the tire contact. If (and I do) do a 90 degree turn 20mph without slowing-the tires are both off the main center contact when in the turn. Carving?
The rounder profile tires-both helped. The old school rear tire larger tread\flatter profile wrecks this ability to ride to the side of the tire when cornering on pavement.

I'm currently looking for a new set of general-purpose tyres, so this thread is of interest (despite / because it's only dealing with road-use)
Anyway, my thoughts:
-When cornering, problem with any MTB knobbly treads is squirm and getting stones caught within the grips. This is actually worse than slicks in some ways - at least they don't slide the problem along with them!
-Water dispersion designs are useless. You're not going fast enough for this to matter, the tyres are narrow (even the fat ones), the ground isn't perfectly flat/smooth so does the job itself (might be useful on polished metal/marble/wood, but on these the lubrication is going to cause you more concern),
-Snow/mud/sand/gravel - even the chunkiest tread only has a minimal effect on a patch of such concerns. To navigate with complete success, you'd need great big fapping paddle-wheels, not tyres. Yes; they're better than a perfect slick tyre even if only because of their increased excavation abilities.
-'self cleaning' treads: I'm sure a lot are still advertised as being able to throw the muck off themselves effectively. And I'm not going to argue with that one! :D

I'd agree the material (or at least the hardness) of the tyre is a major consideration. Personally, I'd like a hard centre line (speed) that becomes softer to either side (for grip during cornering) but with hard stiffeners every now and again (wear / squirm / support considerations)

BTW, these are the tires I like using when i'm commuting and doing light trails. http://www.serfas.com/tires/tires_07.html

I have a set of Kenda Klaw XT for the more demanding trails, those tires are found in this link: http://www.kendausa.com/bicycle/crosscountry.cfm?p=03

Yeah...I'm not a big fan of pic linking.

Mulch "I'm currently looking for a new set of general-purpose tires, so this thread is of interest (despite / because it's only dealing with road-use)">Quote Mulch :rolleyes:

Just something lots of people do, IMO my bike works OK with xc on road, good dry offroad dry condition.
I find slick great road, awful offroad. so my compromise is xc..I also live in a forested\dirt track area and ride asphalt to get to the trails.

"-Snow/mud/sand/gravel - even the chunkiest tread only has a minimal effect on a patch of such concerns. To navigate with complete success, you'd need great big fapping paddle-wheels, not tires.">
Quote Mulch..Pic provided, marketed as paddles, and man do they buzz, err..grip whatever. :D

Different rubber compounds in treads as you suggest would be hard to design for wear but probably an excellent idea for high end racing tires.

Sqirm' -tread flex? I corrected my rear by rounder profile, higher psi- some speed @ the expense of comfort too.
Other tread observations IMO:

-The rounded profile, cornering ability applies to single track\dry offroad racing.

-Technical and rock work is when you want elongated S-chevron treads. this eliminates tearing you get with squared knobs. Also not bad to use harder\cheaper rubbers as prone to gouging.

-Technical and rock work well with flatter edge mounted treads as they are used in balance-( rear and poss front.)

-DH are flatter profile front and rear, I imagine a correcting effect of the flat surface over ground at high speed. Less tread design as surface profile.

-A more pyramidally\angled and irregular tread should build up less mud, also more open space off the tire contact patch (rounder tread\profile) will help.

Lets sling some mud.

jef.