Advocacy & Safety - Biker killed, another critical in Summit Co, Colorado

http://www.summitdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040521/NEWS/105210016&rs=2

I am familiar with that section of road. It is narrow, fast, windy, with no shoulder. I would not ride on that stretch. This does not mean it was the biker's fault - it wasn't. It is just that the world is filled with inattentive drivers who haven't a clue what they are doing, and one of the things they do is kill bikers.

As to the lady biker running the stop sign and hitting the car - that is why the stop sign is there. I am familiar with that intersection, also, and there is a lot of cross traffic by cars.

The biker killed was long-time cyclist Jeff Ferber.

The driver was a 17 year old female. I've said this before and I'll say it again, political correctness be damned, teenagers are some of the absolute worst drivers in the world.

The driver was a 17 year old female. I've said this before and I'll say it again, political correctness be damned, teenagers are some of the absolute worst drivers in the world.

Our teenage drivers have been having terrible accidents here in CO. They fill a SUV up with kids without seatbelts, and go speeding off laughing and giggling and not paying attention, flipping the SUV and killing almost everyone in the car. We've had several of these. They now have some sort of law that only so many teenages can be in one car - hope it works.

Seems that the obvious solution is to adopt a much more rigorous licensing system, maybe like the Germans: no license until 18, extensive training and testing, and a much lower threshold for revocation.

I agree with you caloso.

Also, and I don't mean to open up this can of worms, the whole transportation infrastructure here needs a big shot in the ass. In Cincinnati at least, it's very difficult to live a car free life. Which in turn makes it necessary to license these kids to drive.

You aren't going to beat the auto and oil industries. They've got goverment in their pockets, and a willing public. :/

bkr

The driver was a 17 year old female. I've said this before and I'll say it again, political correctness be damned, teenagers are some of the absolute worst drivers in the world.

Yup, I remember being there. I got lucky that my teenage warning accidents were minor. I drove like a crazed dork back then. I can't imagine why anyone would turn a 17-year old loose on the roads unsupervised.

bkr

Yup, I remember being there. I got lucky that my teenage warning accidents were minor. I drove like a crazed dork back then. I can't imagine why anyone would turn a 17-year old loose on the roads unsupervised.

bkr

Jeez, you brought back some memories that scare me. Sometimes I wonder how I made it out of my teens without killing myself and/or someone else with the car. Distance gives some perspective. Back then I thought I was a great driver. Now(10 years later) I look back and just shake my head.

http://www.summitdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040521/NEWS/105210016&rs=2

I am familiar with that section of road. It is narrow, fast, windy, with no shoulder. I would not ride on that stretch. This does not mean it was the biker's fault - it wasn't. It is just that the world is filled with inattentive drivers who haven't a clue what they are doing, and one of the things they do is kill bikers.

This reminds me of what happened to my coworker's friend on a similarly named highway in the San Francisco Bay Area (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=428277&postcount=15).

Seems that the obvious solution is to adopt a much more rigorous licensing system, maybe like the Germans: no license until 18, extensive training and testing, and a much lower threshold for revocation.

I'd go further. No licence until at least age 25. Possibly 30.

I'd go further. No licence until at least age 25. Possibly 30.

Now wait a minute, Chris. I'm hoping to see my kids driving off with a U-Haul when they're 18...

Now wait a minute, Chris. I'm hoping to see my kids driving off with a U-Haul when they're 18...

Well, they'll just have to use a bike trailer. :D :p

Now wait a minute, Chris. I'm hoping to see my kids driving off with a U-Haul when they're 18...

I don't mean to digress this thread too much but I will have to point out that U-Haul drivers are amongst the most dangerous on the roads. This is simply because of vehicle unfamiliarity. Oftentimes it's the first time the driver has had any exposure to a vehicle of such size, weight and class. While this can be true of any rental vehicle, it's especially so for those behind the wheel of a U-Haul. I know I was particularly worried when I rented one and I tried a couple of common maneuvers in an empty parking lot before loading it up but nevertheless I would never come close to claiming I was a qualified driver of such a vehicle.

The cyclist killed was on the shoulder and off of the road. One would feel SAFE in that situation being off the "dangerous" road but I suspect that being near the road whilst you are taking a break is much more dangerous then it seems. I know of two large perrennial organized rides that over the years have suffered one fatality each. Both of them happened to cyclists who were off of the road and hit by a motorist who swung wide on a turn. I would suggest that everyone be careful about where they stop because it seems quite a few motorists don't necessarily stay on the road.

This is so prevelent that down here in central Florida, every time we have a drought the water levels in the retention ponds goes down and a bunch of missing persons are discovered in their cars which they drove into the retention ponds and expired by drowning.

Both of them happened to cyclists who were off of the road and hit by a motorist who swung wide on a turn. I would suggest that everyone be careful about where they stop because it seems quite a few motorists don't necessarily stay on the road.

Lane discipline (or rather lack thereof) amongst the general driving population (at least in the USA) is attrocious. I see it all the time where I live. People can't seem to follow a line that keeps them within their lane boundary and the result is idiots taking curves (and sometimes simple straight sections) with half their vehicle encrouching onto the shoulder or bike lane.

Raise the age for licensing, and acknowledge that there should be a gender difference; license women at 20, men at 25.

Khuon, speaking of U-Hauls, if you ever read John Forester's Effective Cycling, he does mention (pre-SUV era) to watch out for Corvettes, Cadillacs, and rental trucks!

Jeff was a friend of many here at Copper. My sincerest condolences to family and all who are grieving his loss. Jeff, you are dearly missed.

May your ski days be full of powder turns and your cycling adventures with the wind to your back.

Thank you for starting this difficult thread, Denver.

My observations:
1) California's progressive licensing law, which gradually eases restrictions on new drivers as they gain experience, appears to be working.
2) Congestion-induced motorist impatience and frustration are genuine problems, as are oversized, unstable vehicles.
3) I did not permit my elder son to drive until he was 18. I shall probably treat my younger son the same way, over anticipated loud protests.
4) In San Diego County, we recently lost two cyclists. In one case, a pickup truck passing another vehicle crossed over the centerline of a 2-lane rural highway, striking a 41-year-old cyclist head-on. The officer at the scene declared to news reporters that the motorist "was doing nothing wrong" (??!), but fortunately, under pressure from the San Diego cycling community, the California Highway Patrol now says that the "investigation is not yet complete." In the other instance, a minivan turned left across the path of a cyclist on an urban street.
5) The stories of people being struck whilst standing OFF the road surface reminded me of Cece Krone's death a few years ago. Michele Young, her DUI killer, is probably eligible for parole by now, which would scare the $%(^ out of me if I lived in Marin County.
6) As long as our legal system coddles careless drivers, the carnage will continue.

Wow....this is so upsetting. I rode this section of road last summer during my cross country tour. It is the "official" route that Adventure Cycling recommends. I saw a bunch of cyclists along this road. If you look at the picture in the link, you can see that there is a wide shoulder with plenty of room for cycling, better than many streets I ride on a regular basis. On a street like this I would feel "safe". Makes me worry about myself.

I definitely agree that later licensing would help many accidents. When I was 16 I got into 2 accidents. Looking back, I was careless! I am so glad no one was seriously injured. Most teenagers don't have the ability to process all the critical information needed as a driver. Hell....I'd say a lot of people, grown-ups included, need to pay more attention to the road. After all, you are piloting a ton of metal down the road. That's the reason I bicycle. I HATE to drive!

I definitely agree that later licensing would help many accidents. When I was 16 I got into 2 accidents. Looking back, I was careless! I am so glad no one was seriously injured. Most teenagers don't have the ability to process all the critical information needed as a driver. Hell....I'd say a lot of people, grown-ups included, need to pay more attention to the road.

No "drivers ed" class will ever prepare drivers for the road. Only real experience can do that. Some intensive behind-the-wheel emergency driving courses would help in this regard. (fat chance) In a sense you need to "blow it" a few times in order to learn your driving limitations. You can't predict a spin-out until you've spun out. You don't understand emergency stopping until you've locked up all 4 wheels and it still wasn't enough. You don't know how to watch for peds or cyclists in the sun-glare until you've almost run one down. You don't understand complex traffic situations until you've experienced them. Drivers are put on the roads totally unprepared for the real world, and it shows. It doesn't help that many people seem to be driving on "autopilot", anyway. We don't have a safe driving culture at all.

bkr

This last Sunday, while I was on a ride, a pickup truck began to pass other vehicles. He was coming at me and--I could easily see had no intention of backing off of his idiotic maneuver for a bicyclist--finally forced me toward the ditch.

I gave the driver a large one-fingered wave, but that was a pathetic gesture, considering the driver never even slowed down. He apparently assumed that either I would bail or become a decoration on the front of his pickup truck.

In another incident, yesterday, at Wal-Mart, while I was walking in a marked crosswalk, another driver almost ran me over. He stopped, when I complained loudly. I waved him on.

Many drivers, whatever their ages, are simply not fit to drive motor vehicles. As bicyclists, we can only hope that gasoline prices continue to escalate perhaps forcing some of the slack-jawed, cell-phone addicted, incompetent motor-vehicle operators off the road.

Certainly, elected government officials have no desire to cross voters with more restrictive driving regulations, even if such regulations are sorely needed.

Update on Biker Death:



http://www.summitdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?SearchID=73174422446125&Avis=SD&Dato=20040610&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=106100001&Ref=AR


REID WILLIAMS
summit daily news
June 10, 2004


SUMMIT COUNTY - Following an investigation of the accident scene, the Colorado State Patrol (CSP) has charged a teenager in the death of a bicyclist along Highway 9 north of Silverthorne last month.

CSP Capt. Ron Prater said the 17-year-old Kremmling resident was charged with first-class misdemeanor careless driving resulting in death. The charge carries possible penalties of 10 days to one year in jail, and a possible fine of between $100 and $1,000.

The teenager was driving south on Highway 9 from Kremmling the afternoon of May 2, when the driver allegedly drifted off the road onto the shoulder, hitting a cyclist.

Jeffrey Ferber, 59, a New Yorker who had moved to Frisco five years earlier, was pronounced dead at the scene. An avid cyclist, Copper Mountain ski instructor and semi-retired accountant, Ferber died of traumatic head injuries despite wearing a helmet.

Ferber was reportedly stopped on the shoulder near mile 106, waiting for a fellow biker to catch up, when the accident occurred.

Prater said investigators believe the teenager was looking at the car's clock to check the time and drifted off the road.

"This was simply a case of inattentive driving," Prater said Thursday. "When you're driving down the road, you can't forget that you have the lives of everyone around you in your hands."

In a sad twist, Ferber's death occurred as the State Patrol and other law enforcement agencies around the state were set to embark on a week-long, stepped-up enforcement campaign aimed at reducing traffic fatalities over the Memorial Day weekend.

Dubbed "Zero Week," local police departments and sheriff's offices joined state troopers in saturation patrols on the lookout for speeders, seat belt scofflaws and drivers with improperly restrained children.

In Summit County, officers from the Frisco, Dillon, Silverthorne and Breckenridge police departments and Summit County Sheriff's Office deputies joined troopers on Interstate 70 and Highway 9 north of Silverthorne. Prater said the patrols put extra emphasis on Highway 9 following Ferber's death.

Prater said the patrols issued 300 speeding tickets, cited more than 50 aggressive drivers, logged 150 seat belt violations and 15 child restraint infractions. Nineteen accidents occurred during "Zero Week," only one of which was alcohol-related. Summit County saw no traffic fatalities that week, even with wintry weather that left areas slick with ice.

CSP Capt. Ron Prater said the 17-year-old Kremmling resident was charged with first-class misdemeanor careless driving resulting in death. The charge carries possible penalties of 10 days to one year in jail, and a possible fine of between $100 and $1,000.
..."This was simply a case of inattentive driving," Prater said Thursday.

*POSSIBLE* fine?
What the f**k! So that's what a human life is worth? That moron should spend the next 10 if not more years of her life in prison and have half her wages docked.
What the hell, if I were a surgeon doing surgery, I don't turn around to check my stock ticker while I'm making the incision.

So what the law is basically saying is that if say an angry family member wanted to murder this driver, all they'd have to do is find out when she gets out of work at 5pm and mow her down by "changing the station on the radio." And all they'll get is a slap on the wrist...

This is wonderful news to those murders out there with half a brain to figure out a way around the law.

I agree, the charge does not fit the crime. Until motorists who kill and injure cyclists and pedestrians face stiff penalties and consequences for their lack of responsibility, nothing's going to change...

I am familiar with that section of road. It is narrow, fast, windy, with no shoulder.

I took the time to drive by the scene of the accident yesterday. I was not correct. In this section there is a wide shoulder, with a well marked white fog stripe on the right. All the more reason this girl should not have hit this biker.

Further along the road you lose the shoulder, but right here it is a great shoulder.

We had some twerp of a columnist writing in The Observer (major UK Sunday broadsheet) a few months ago. We in the UK should emulate California in the way we treat the motorist (who is apparently terribly oppressed over here)

So I checked the figures - If we matched Cal. accident rates per head of population, we'd up our road deaths from about 3,600 p.a. to about 6,600 p.a.

We also treat cyclist killing drivers with kid gloves.

[QUOTE=John E]Thank you for starting this difficult thread, Denver.

My observations:
1) California's progressive licensing law, which gradually eases restrictions on new drivers as they gain experience, appears to be working.



This law is pure age discrimination. We do this only to younger drivers, not older ones that have just started driving. I know it's making many younger drivers better, but it should apply to everyone just starting out driving, regardless of age. There are many people just starting to drive that are not teenagers that are just as inattentive.

This last Sunday, while I was on a ride, a pickup truck began to pass other vehicles. He was coming at me and--I could easily see had no intention of backing off of his idiotic maneuver for a bicyclist--finally forced me toward the ditch.

I gave the driver a large one-fingered wave, but that was a pathetic gesture, considering the driver never even slowed down. He apparently assumed that either I would bail or become a decoration on the front of his pickup truck.

In another incident, yesterday, at Wal-Mart, while I was walking in a marked crosswalk, another driver almost ran me over. He stopped, when I complained loudly. I waved him on.

Many drivers, whatever their ages, are simply not fit to drive motor vehicles. As bicyclists, we can only hope that gasoline prices continue to escalate perhaps forcing some of the slack-jawed, cell-phone addicted, incompetent motor-vehicle operators off the road.

Certainly, elected government officials have no desire to cross voters with more restrictive driving regulations, even if such regulations are sorely needed.


You don't have anything in your jersey pockets, such as energy bars, that you could toss intot he air and hit his windshield as he goes by?

*POSSIBLE* fine?
What the f**k! So that's what a human life is worth?

<snip>

This is wonderful news to those murders out there with half a brain to figure out a way around the law.

Just think about all the killers in jail right now who were naive enough to use a gun or a knife. Virtually all of them would be free today had they used a car and pleaded "accident". We live in a wonderful world, don't we?

In the same newspaper, there was an article about a school superintendent and business manager who ripped off a Colorado school district for about $100,000. They are both facing 6 years in jail.

Girl who killed biker will likely get probation.

Sad injustice.

My warmest regards to family and friends of Jeff Ferber.


The biker killed was long-time cyclist Jeff Ferber.

Seems that the obvious solution is to adopt a much more rigorous licensing system, maybe like the Germans: no license until 18, extensive training and testing, and a much lower threshold for revocation.

I so strongly agree with you, and not from the point of view of a cyclist (I haven't braved riding in traffic yet), but from that of a motorist. I have a decent length commute and the amount of horrible driving I see just appalls me. Having a license is not a right, and I firmly believe that it should be much harder to get and keep a driver's license. Every day I see numerous people who simply should not be allowed behind the wheel of a car.

I so strongly agree with you, and not from the point of view of a cyclist (I haven't braved riding in traffic yet), but from that of a motorist. I have a decent length commute and the amount of horrible driving I see just appalls me. Having a license is not a right, and I firmly believe that it should be much harder to get and keep a driver's license. Every day I see numerous people who simply should not be allowed behind the wheel of a car.

This is an interesting point. It amazes me just how few drivers realise how much they would benefit from stricter accountability for the allocation of driving privileges, simply by removing some of these crazies from the road.

This is an interesting point. It amazes me just how few drivers realise how much they would benefit from stricter accountability for the allocation of driving privileges, simply by removing some of these crazies from the road.

I'm not so sure why this should be of any surprise. People who really do enjoy and like driving are very much unhappy with the lack of skill, training and discipline apparent in the general driving public. Any group of enthusiasts will always have a somewhat contemptious attitude towards those who don't take their activity as seriously... especially if it impacts them directly. And in the case of driving, that can also mean literally.

I'm not so sure why this should be of any surprise. People who really do enjoy and like driving are very much unhappy with the lack of skill, training and discipline apparent in the general driving public. Any group of enthusiasts will always have a somewhat contemptious attitude towards those who don't take their activity as seriously... especially if it impacts them directly. And in the case of driving, that can also mean literally.

Hmmm, I don't know... it doesn't seem to me that in the case of driving it's enthusiasts who are concerned about bad/inconsiderate drivers. Personally, I drive because I have to, and I look forward to the day when that's not the case and I can live a car-free life. I am, however, a safety and courtesy enthusiast.

Hmmm, I don't know... it doesn't seem to me that in the case of driving it's enthusiasts who are concerned about bad/inconsiderate drivers. Personally, I drive because I have to, and I look forward to the day when that's not the case and I can live a car-free life. I am, however, a safety and courtesy enthusiast.

I believe that most people don't really want to drive. I believe that most people don't even really want to be in a car. They just think they do or rather have been brainwashed into thinking they do. I do believe that there are a handful of people who take their driving seriously and are quite annoyed by others who don't.

I believe that most people don't really want to drive. I believe that most people don't even really want to be in a car. They just think they do or rather have been brainwashed into thinking they do. I do believe that there are a handful of people who take their driving seriously and are quite annoyed by others who don't.

I agree -- most people I observe don't seem to enjoy driving. Of course, around here, driving almost inevitably means dealing with heavy traffic, and perhaps that what's most unpleasant. I think perhaps people believe they enjoy, or should enjoy, driving as a side effect of having been brainwashed into valuing the car as a possession in and of itself.

I agree -- most people I observe don't seem to enjoy driving. Of course, around here, driving almost inevitably means dealing with heavy traffic, and perhaps that what's most unpleasant. I think perhaps people believe they enjoy, or should enjoy, driving as a side effect of having been brainwashed into valuing the car as a possession in and of itself.

I would also have to agree many people really dont like driving. There are very few that actually know how to handle what a car is capapble of and do it safely. Everyone else is just wandering to get somwhere. On another note I am a 17 year old driver in Michigan. We have a restricted license that makes you drive 40 hours with parents before even being able to get your license. Then we have limitations on the times that we can drive for the first year or so. Everytime you get a ticket or in an accident the time it takes to get rid of the restrictions restarts. And from my experience the girls know have caused far more accidents then the guys that I know.

Seems that the obvious solution is to adopt a much more rigorous licensing system, maybe like the Germans: no license until 18, extensive training and testing, and a much lower threshold for revocation.
I agree except leave age out of the equation. Some of us farm kids were driving on the roads by 10 yr old after having plowed and cut hay for 3 to 4 years. Training not age is the answer. In fact younger may be better.

Joe

I agree -- most people I observe don't seem to enjoy driving. Of course, around here, driving almost inevitably means dealing with heavy traffic, and perhaps that what's most unpleasant. I think perhaps people believe they enjoy, or should enjoy, driving as a side effect of having been brainwashed into valuing the car as a possession in and of itself.

I think that if people could experience the same freedom they receive by being able to drive everywhere, at any time, without having to worry about train schedules, they'd happily change how they get that freedom. Unfortunately, that just isn't there for most people when they look at a bike. They are limited by their own imagination, saying to themselves, "I can't go further than the corner under my own power..."

Lane discipline (or rather lack thereof) amongst the general driving population (at least in the USA) is attrocious. I see it all the time where I live. People can't seem to follow a line that keeps them within their lane boundary and the result is idiots taking curves (and sometimes simple straight sections) with half their vehicle encrouching onto the shoulder or bike lane.

I completely agree. In fact, I can't agree enough. And it's gotten way worse since I started driving in 1984.

Around my house it's mostly windy roads and I would say at least half of the oncoming cars while I'm on a curve to the right are fully two wheels over the center lines.

I think it's the onset of bigger, less maneaverable cars like SUVs, pickups and minivans (compared with the smaller cars of the eighties and early nineties when I started driving) combined with the "accepted" level of exceeding the speed limit going from 5 mph then to 15 to 20 mph now. Unfortunately those big SUVs can't make the curves at that speed. And as usual, slowing down is never an option that is considered in the least.

I believe that most people don't really want to drive. I believe that most people don't even really want to be in a car. They just think they do or rather have been brainwashed into thinking they do. I do believe that there are a handful of people who take their driving seriously and are quite annoyed by others who don't.

Not me. I enjoy driving when the roads are clear. But driving in traffic is certainly no fun at all.

I think it's the onset of bigger, less maneaverable cars like SUVs, pickups and minivans (compared with the smaller cars of the eighties and early nineties when I started driving) combined with the "accepted" level of exceeding the speed limit going from 5 mph then to 15 to 20 mph now. Unfortunately those big SUVs can't make the curves at that speed. And as usual, slowing down is never an option that is considered in the least.

I would buy that except for that fact that I'm cornering at the same speed in my front and back live-axle Jeep Grand Cherokee while watching the guy in front of me in the BMW M3 straddling the shoulder or the center divider on the same curves. Most modern SUVs can handle all the curves at all the posted speeds (or even higher by about 20%) in today's road system. The roads were not designed to be run as autocross tracks though. I think the problem is that the drivers just don't know how to control their vehicles. Let's face it, when most people take driver's ed, that even limited amount of training is done in sedans or coupes. Even if the student supplies their own vehicle, the instruction curriculum still treats vehicle handling as if the vehicle were a sedan-type car. SUVs are different and people need to learn how to operate them differently. With proper training, they're as safe as any other vehicle on the road.

That's true. But still, ninety percent of the time (from my observations) it's one of those cars I listed.

It's true that anyone can drive a car poorly. But it's also true that some vehicles are harder to get around a corner gracefully than others and can magnify deficient driving skills.

I agree except leave age out of the equation. Some of us farm kids were driving on the roads by 10 yr old after having plowed and cut hay for 3 to 4 years. Training not age is the answer. In fact younger may be better.

As far as I'm concerned, train people as young as you like, but after schoolies' week last year I still stand by my point. Nobody under the age of 25 should be allowed on the roads unsupervised. Let them discover their lack of invincibility somewhere else.

Nobody under the age of 25 should be allowed on the roads unsupervised. Dunno what the legal age of adulthood is in Oz, but here, it's 18. That leaves seven years in which adults who wish to drive would have to HIRE a "supervisor". This would also put a massive burden on older adults who would have to put in time supervising younger adult drivers. There just aren't enough hours in the day for people to put into this. And such a rule would make sense if there were the family cohesion there once was in this country, where parents and their adult children stayed close well into the children's adulthood. Those days are gone.

No question, we drive too much. And yes, if we drove less, there'd be time to implement such a plan. But using such means to force a reduction in driving won't work, IMHO. Sounds ideal, but it's unrealistic.

Dunno what the legal age of adulthood is in Oz, but here, it's 18. That leaves seven years in which adults who wish to drive would have to HIRE a "supervisor". This would also put a massive burden on older adults who would have to put in time supervising younger adult drivers. There just aren't enough hours in the day for people to put into this. And such a rule would make sense if there were the family cohesion there once was in this country, where parents and their adult children stayed close well into the children's adulthood. Those days are gone.

The "legal" age of adulthood out here is exactly the same. However, that's irrelevant. The simple fact is that the majority of people simply do not attain the necessary mental development to cope with the responsibility of operating an automobile until at least the age of 25 (some never attain it). If you don't believe me, have a look at the stats on which age group accounts for the greatest percentage of fatalities every year. To borrow a line from the mandatory helmet law proponents, it would be "for their own safety". It just means they have to find some other way of getting around for a while, so what? If they can do it until they're 18, they can do it for another seven years just as easily.

I really couldn't care less about reducing the amount of driving people do. I derive great pleasure from riding through gridlock, and having more opportunities to do so wouldn't upset me in the slightest. It's purely a safety issue.

Whether I "believe you" isn't relevant. What those statistics don't show is whether they're attributable to the age of the drivers, or the number of years they've been driving. For example, if we raise the driving age to 25 (forget, for the sake of argument, about "supervised"), we'd probably see a large percentage of fatalities of drivers under the age of 32. Should we then advocate for raising the driving age once again? IOW, it could just as easily be argued that the driving age should be reduced to, say, 14, but with a requirement that all minors to be supervised while driving.

I can see requiring supervised driving for a certain early period (wrt. years driving, not age). Not sure how long that should be. And again, there just isn't enough supervision time to go around to supervise drivers up to age 25. People on both sides of 25 would oppose it for that very reason. Right or wrong? I dunno. Practical? No. Though if your idea were ever proposed, it would be a very effective way to get that segment of the population out to vote :) (or even run for public office).

Whether I "believe you" isn't relevant. What those statistics don't show is whether they're attributable to the age of the drivers, or the number of years they've been driving. For example, if we raise the driving age to 25 (forget, for the sake of argument, about "supervised"), we'd probably see a large percentage of fatalities of drivers under the age of 32. Should we then advocate for raising the driving age once again? IOW, it could just as easily be argued that the driving age should be reduced to, say, 14, but with a requirement that all minors to be supervised while driving.

It has at least as much to do with mental development as experience. The simple fact is that most people under the age of 25 think they're invincible. When people have that mentality they are simply not ready for the responsibility that goes with operating something as large and cumbersome as a motor vehicle in traffic. Why do you suppose they don't allow 12 year-olds to drive and gain the experience?


I can see requiring supervised driving for a certain early period (wrt. years driving, not age). Not sure how long that should be. And again, there just isn't enough supervision time to go around to supervise drivers up to age 25.

In that case, they simply wait a little longer to drive. Gee, life's tough isn't it?



People on both sides of 25 would oppose it for that very reason. Right or wrong? I dunno. Practical? No.

It's perfectly practical. Whether people oppose it or not isn't the issue. I, for one, am getting a little tired of this whole concept of government by opinion poll anyway. If people knew what was good for them, McDonalds would have long gone out of business by now.