Living Car Free - Is the car of the future really a car?

We've had a number of threads where someone tries to predict what the car of the future would be like.

Many prototypes exist, but it's difficult to imagine what would replace the current flotilla.

To my mind, it's an electric vehicle with possibly as few as 3 wheels about the size of the Smartcar.

I also think not everyone will want to own one and I also predict that those who do own them, will tend to put about 5,000 miles a year on it.

We've had a number of threads where someone tries to predict what the car of the future would be like.

Many prototypes exist, but it's difficult to imagine what would replace the current flotilla.

To my mind, it's an electric vehicle with possibly as few as 3 wheels about the size of the Smartcar.

I also think not everyone will want to own one and I also predict that those who do own them, will tend to put about 5,000 miles a year on it.

Sounds reasonable to me. How many miles do you put on a bike?

Won't work for me. Too small. The Smart (and the Mini, for that matter) isn't big enough for my tuba in its case.

Not everybody's a tuba player, though. ;)

The car will eventually be replaced
with newegg.com, amazon.com, homedepot.com, walmarts.com, online schooling/higher education, and ebay.com.

Delivery vans, osteoporosis, and sore lower backs will be newly added to our common ailments - overweight, sedientary...etc..

The world around us will gradually return to a more natural state as more and more of the global community find it more interesting to be online. Starting with your uncut and overgrown yard.

Likewise, the people who make cars will be found surfing the net instead of doing their jobs. Most will be caught posting comments and replies in some forum.

Sounds reasonable to me. How many miles do you put on a bike?

4-5K a year


Won't work for me. Too small. The Smart (and the Mini, for that matter) isn't big enough for my tuba in its case.

Not everybody's a tuba player, though. ;)
I was surprised at how much room there is in the back of a SmartCar. You could fit a big dog back there. Not sure if it is tuba sized though. Can you buy a tuba trailer?

The car will eventually be replaced
with newegg.com, amazon.com, homedepot.com, walmarts.com, online schooling/higher education, and ebay.com.

Personally, I'm trying to go further in the direction of a "homestead & Internet" way of life. The "car & job" lifestyle is dominant nowadays but there may be alternatives to that in the future (as there were in the past).

The Internet isn't just for online ordering. It tells me how to make food out of dirt in my back yard, how to keep my bike in good repair, what goods & services are available in my immediate neighborhood, and so on. I'm seconds away from expert level know-how on any subject. The Internet isn't a solution to every problem, but even in its current primitive state it's more useful to me than a car.

The car will eventually be replaced
with newegg.com, amazon.com, homedepot.com, walmarts.com, online schooling/higher education, and ebay.com.

Delivery vans, osteoporosis, and sore lower backs will be newly added to our common ailments - overweight, sedientary...etc..

The world around us will gradually return to a more natural state as more and more of the global community find it more interesting to be online. Starting with your uncut and overgrown yard.

Likewise, the people who make cars will be found surfing the net instead of doing their jobs. Most will be caught posting comments and replies in some forum.

I like your idea. "And the [cyclists] shall inherit the earth."
-Gene-

I was surprised at how much room there is in the back of a SmartCar. You could fit a big dog back there. Not sure if it is tuba sized though. Can you buy a tuba trailer?

There's a good amount of vertical room, naturally, but not quite enough fore-aft room, and barely enough room side-to-side. I've had my horn in a variety of vehicles, but I didn't get the feeling that taking an empty case for a test fit in a Smart would be worthwhile.

Won't work for me. Too small. The Smart (and the Mini, for that matter) isn't big enough for my tuba in its case.

Not everybody's a tuba player, though. ;)
Seriously, have you tried it? I got a full size road frame in a Smart, with wheels and 4-5 bags of shopping.
I know a tuba is big instrument, and in a case it's gotta be bulky, but, with the passenger seat down in a Smart....? I'm almost certain it would go in the back of a Mini with the seats flat.

What, and take no passenger?

Put it this way -- what's more efficient, two tuba players in one car, or two players in two cars?

What, and take no passenger?

Put it this way -- what's more efficient, two tuba players in one car, or two players in two cars?

Point, but like you said, not everyone plays Tuba. You could still get a mini and share with the piccolo player.......

And to the OP, your perfect car is already being made.
http://www.aptera.com/

Not sure you could get a Tuba in that.....

The Aptera would be awesome... as a second (or third, or fourth) car.

Me, I'm holding out for something like the Clarity (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/).

The Aptera would be awesome... as a second (or third, or fourth) car.

Me, I'm holding out for something like the Clarity (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/).

Pretty, I think Fuel Cells are gonna be replaced by battery technology in the near to mid future. And it's not a hatchback, what's with N.A. and their hate for hatchbacks?

Pretty, I think Fuel Cells are gonna be replaced by battery technology in the near to mid future.

Only if batteries can be recharged in a minute or two (which, I've recently heard, is a distinct possibility). Call me impatient, but I don't want to add a whole day or three to a cross-country trip just because my car runs out of spunk and needs six hours to come back to life.


And it's not a hatchback, what's with N.A. and their hate for hatchbacks?

At least its back lifts open like a hatchback. The overall shape is nothing new, either, following research done in the 1930's by a German named Wunibald Kamm. The Prius, the new Insight, and even the Chevy Volt copy the same shape.

Only if batteries can be recharged in a minute or two (which, I've recently heard, is a distinct possibility). Call me impatient, but I don't want to add a whole day or three to a cross-country trip just because my car runs out of spunk and needs six hours to come back to life.Yes, the one I have hopes for is the Ultracapacitor from EEstor, fingers crossed. It can take juice almost as fast as your refueling setup can dump it. If it does work, "refueling" stations will need to be set up that can store grid electricity in big banks of caps that can deliver on demand. Not gonna happen tomorrow, but, it could happen.




At least its back lifts open like a hatchback. Err, no it doesn't?

http://www.autoslug.com/wp-content/gallery/honda-fcx-clarity/fcx-clarity-ride-2.jpg

Maybe we are having a difference of definition.
What I would call a hatchback gives access to most of the cross sectional shape of the car. Doubles or triples the flexibility of load carrying.
The overall shape is nothing new, either, following research done in the 1930's by a German named Wunibald Kamm. The Prius, the new Insight, and even the Chevy Volt copy the same shape. Good example of the shape a bit further back is the Citroen CX, or even the DS.

Err, no it doesn't (open like a hatchback)?

http://www.autoslug.com/wp-content/gallery/honda-fcx-clarity/fcx-clarity-ride-2.jpg

Maybe we are having a difference of definition.
What I would call a hatchback gives access to most of the cross sectional shape of the car. Doubles or triples the flexibility of load carrying.

Ah, crap, call it a habit of seeing the lopped-off tail and thinking that it opens completely.. :o

What, and take no passenger?

Put it this way -- what's more efficient, two tuba players in one car, or two players in two cars?

The Smart Car doesn't get any better fuel mileage than a Yaris and I know a drum kit will not fit in one. The smart has been is trouble for about as long as they have been making them. I believe they have always been in the red in Europe where they were introduced and that is where small cars are looked at in a very positive light. Here they are more of an oddity that a solution. But if you want a cute city car they have just what you need. If you have a lot of Musical equipment they are not. I can’t even get my hand drums in one. Two congas, a djembe, Bongos and the stands plus the percussion bells and blocks and their stands. The Gretsch Kit simply isn’t possible with the Bass.

Won't work for me. Too small. The Smart (and the Mini, for that matter) isn't big enough for my tuba in its case.

Not everybody's a tuba player, though. ;)

You could switch to piccolo.;)

Seriously, on Another List, I was criticized for owning a piano. It was in a discussion in which people were talking about moving by bicycle, and I pointed out that it would be rather hard to move my piano that way. They went off on me for owning such a heavy, bulky item in the first place. When I pointed out that I was a musician, they suggested that I switch to a more portable instrument.

Answer for almost everything....

You could switch to piccolo.;)

Seriously, on Another List, I was criticized for owning a piano. It was in a discussion in which people were talking about moving by bicycle, and I pointed out that it would be rather hard to move my piano that way. They went off on me for owning such a heavy, bulky item in the first place. When I pointed out that I was a musician, they suggested that I switch to a more portable instrument.

Ah... but the big problem with that, as I'm sure you can figure out, is...

... that I'd have to become a... *shudder*.. piccolo player. :twitchy:

Point, but like you said, not everyone plays Tuba. You could still get a mini and share with the piccolo player.......

And to the OP, your perfect car is already being made.
http://www.aptera.com/

Not sure you could get a Tuba in that.....



The Aptera would be awesome... as a second (or third, or fourth) car.

Me, I'm holding out for something like the Clarity (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/).

We talked about the Aptera in another thread, basically very interesting concept. Something like that might indeed be the car of the future. First time I've heard about the Clarity, but I'm still not sure you could carry a tuba in that one either.

One problem I see with both designs is the footprint of the vehicle. I sort of envision a vehicle that would half the square footage currently required for parking. The would allow shopping centers and parking spots and driveways to be much smaller which would make cities much smaller.

On a side note, I also have to ask if the car of the future is something that everyone would want. Could it be that the car might become an optional piece of equipment... one that many people might be inclined to rent, but in the course of ordinary living, might not be a necessity. Therefore, the car would be a requirement for people who were dragging around tubas or were involved in commercial ventures, but otherwise would not be a commonly "owned" commodity. A good example is the truck. Some people have them and really need them. Other people see them as a reason to visit Enterprise Rent-A-Car.

Ah, crap, call it a habit of seeing the lopped-off tail and thinking that it opens completely.. :o

I seem to have developed a knack of figuring out which cars have a hatch simply from some subtle hints around the c pillar. I once had a job which involved retrieving cars randomly parked from a large lot. Co-Workers were often surprised I could pick out the right car from a row of similar vehicle from very small visual clues. When I saw the Clarity I almost immediately diagnosed a car that could be a hatch, but was not. Checking the video showed me a cut line that tended to confirm it. Still took a bit to find a picture that was definite.

Anyway, whats wrong with the piccolo? And what is the hate N.A. has for the hatch?

Anyway, whats wrong with the piccolo?

Isn't it obvious? :p


And what is the hate N.A. has for the hatch?

I don't know, and I don't understand why hatchbacks hardly survive in showrooms, either. POS cars like the Chevette (full-size hardware shoved under a small body, so interior room sucked) didn't help. Econoboxes also...

Well, wait -- the word "econobox" itself isn't used nearly as much, and nowhere near as derisively, over in England (which is where my '02 Civic hatch was designed, actually). Over there, and in much of Europe, if someone's not driving a big saloon, it's a hatchback. My Civic is on the large side of "average" there; here, it's "small".

The curious thing is that, the last time I looked (which was up to a decade ago), hatchbacks, especially good ones, are hard to catch on the used market. You might find one, but you'd better snag it quickly. I caught my previous Civic by calling its owner the morning that the new classified ads came out in the paper. In the two hours between my call and meeting him to see it, three other buyers called (since I called first, I got dibs, and took it home that day). By comparison, I had been watching a Buick Skylark sedan languishing in the ads for maybe three months.

People buying used cars tend to be practical-minded, and not many cars give such a great practical-bang-for-the-buck as a good, reliable hatchback or small wagon. People buying new, though, don't seem to have that mindset.

What they dont make a folder Tuba yet?

First time I've heard about the Clarity, but I'm still not sure you could carry a tuba in that one either.

The back seat is the obvious spot; but, yeah, I don't know if the trunk is roomy enough.


One problem I see with both designs is the footprint of the vehicle. I sort of envision a vehicle that would half the square footage currently required for parking. The would allow shopping centers and parking spots and driveways to be much smaller which would make cities much smaller.

I think that most of that space savings can come from simply having more smallish cars on the road.

But, parking spots can't get much narrower without forcing out cars that are made to fit two people side-by-side. It'll be hard to make them shorter or more densely packed, too, without completely blocking the larger cars that people would still use.

On-street parallel parking, the kind without markings, would gain the most capacity from more small cars. Looking outside my window, I see a Volvo crossover/SUV thing that's occupying a short 25-30 foot section without leaving enough room for another vehicle to park legally. There's another stretch taken up by a Mercedes, a Pontiac, and an MX-6; instead, it could fit at least four Smart cars (or maybe 3-1/2 Civic hatches).

Again, though, there's a practical limit to how small cars can get because you can't make people any smaller. Two passengers and their stuff usually take up a predictable amount of space; same with four people. They're getting better at packaging components, of course; the aforementioned Chevette felt more cramped to me than the Smart does, and Toyota's iQ has a few tricks of its own (they talk about the air conditioning unit being smaller and tucked into the center of the dash rather than the usual spot in front of the passenger). They can't make people smaller, though.

What they dont make a folder Tuba yet?

No, but they've done them with carbon fiber bells. :thumb:

http://www.canbrass.com/features/aerospace.html

Isn't it obvious? :p



I don't know, and I don't understand why hatchbacks hardly survive in showrooms, either. POS cars like the Chevette (full-size hardware shoved under a small body, so interior room sucked) didn't help. Econoboxes also...

Well, wait -- the word "econobox" itself isn't used nearly as much, and nowhere near as derisively, over in England (which is where my '02 Civic hatch was designed, actually). Over there, and in much of Europe, if someone's not driving a big saloon, it's a hatchback. My Civic is on the large side of "average" there; here, it's "small".

The curious thing is that, the last time I looked (which was up to a decade ago), hatchbacks, especially good ones, are hard to catch on the used market. You might find one, but you'd better snag it quickly. I caught my previous Civic by calling its owner the morning that the new classified ads came out in the paper. In the two hours between my call and meeting him to see it, three other buyers called (since I called first, I got dibs, and took it home that day). By comparison, I had been watching a Buick Skylark sedan languishing in the ads for maybe three months.

People buying used cars tend to be practical-minded, and not many cars give such a great practical-bang-for-the-buck as a good, reliable hatchback or small wagon. People buying new, though, don't seem to have that mindset.

I believe it is image. Hatchbacks and small wagons have a bad image. In fact in the Us it would be death to call a small wagon a station wagon. The reason you find so few used ones, compared to Civic Sedans and Coupes, is because there were so few new ones compared to Sedans and Coupes. The reason was because the hatchback was the very definition of Econobox. The station wagon was the definition of family man. (this doesn’t happen to be my personal view but one from observation and talking with people in social settings.) The Econobox term is still used in car forums much like this one except for a sub set of “practical” people like you mentioned.

Look at our TV shows, movies and even magazines, there is nothing sexy or manly about a hatchback or wagon. At least not the image they are given. Get that image 24/7/365 and you get the picture. Once the Mini Van got the image of Soccer mom no man worth his salt would get caught dead going out with the guys in one. (not applicable to practical people.) So what happens? A new hatch back comes out and for a few years hangs on because practical people by what they need and then slowly but surely sales fall off. Practical people don’t trade as often so you don’t see many used hatchbacks. At some point the manufacturer drops the car and you have to wait till a new generation of practical people shows some interest. Honda had a very nice little wagon and it bit the dust because if people wanted a wagon they felt the CR-V was a better option. And it had a better image. :o

It has a lot to do with image and sales. Once something drops below some magic percentage point, more in the case of an affordable vehicle less in the case of a sports car or Luxury vehicle, they stop offering it and replace it with something people buy. Subaru made a small little truck that addressed some of the complaints people had about Hatchbacks and small wagons. You were too close to the “smell” of things you got at the nursery. Sounded like a good idea but died on the vine. :crash:

It should be obvious that people in a car free forum will be less concerned with image but looking at the percentage of car free people to ones with cars we see who the minority is. And the majority is bombarded with image, not practicality. :eek:

Won't work for me. Too small. The Smart (and the Mini, for that matter) isn't big enough for my tuba in its case.

Not everybody's a tuba player, though. ;)

The car of the future should be flexible enough to handle big loads. If you could take the back of the shell off and have a flat bed, you could carry your tuba easily. I'm thinking of something like a "convertible" El Camino--only a small car or 3 wheeled electric vehicle.




http://www.fellions.com/images/72_elcamino/72elcaminorightside.jpg



Anyhow, a good small electric car would be modular so that you could change it's configuration from 4-passenger to pickup to station wagon, depdending on your needs.

The car will eventually be replaced
with newegg.com, amazon.com, homedepot.com, walmarts.com, online schooling/higher education, and ebay.com.


Yes. Delivery vans and lots of low-speed short distance vehicles. Bikes, electrical bikes, motorcycles, motor scooters, mopeds, subcompact cars, golf carts, and various vehicles that won't commonly travel further than 10 miles at a time or above 35 mph. Increased demand for oil in the heavily populated developing world is going to force us to stretch our supply of fuel and raw materials.

Anyhow, a good small electric car would be modular so that you could change it's configuration from 4-passenger to pickup to station wagon, depdending on your needs.

GM's "skateboard" concept would be cool for that kind of thing. A slim, flat platform holds the powertrain and wheels, and you'd change bodies depending on your needs.

Now, where you keep those bodies is another issue. They've said that dealerships and such would be able to do it -- make an appointment, go there, and they dismount your small pickup body and install a two-seat roadster for a weekend getaway. What if there aren't any roadster bodies available, though?

GM's "skateboard" concept would be cool for that kind of thing. A slim, flat platform holds the powertrain and wheels, and you'd change bodies depending on your needs.

Now, where you keep those bodies is another issue. They've said that dealerships and such would be able to do it -- make an appointment, go there, and they dismount your small pickup body and install a two-seat roadster for a weekend getaway. What if there aren't any roadster bodies available, though?
Instead what you could do is sell the El Camino version and allow people to rent an extra two seats for their weekend getaway.

Although I'm still not sure this would ever beat the Enterprise Rent-A-Car weekend rate.

I was think about some sort of very small "Pod" car with three wheels like the Sparrow or the Toyota pods. They would seat one person but have a little coupling in the back so you can easily hook it up to another pod that would carry 2 kids, and then that pod coudle have a coupling to tow yet another pod. They would have to be powerful enough to pull their own eight but also a bit more so I am thinking diesle or electric motors. The best part is that you never take more car with you than you need. If your just commuting then take one pod with you, no extra weight baggage. Also the additional tow podds could have small electric assist motors that help the front pod to tow so that you are also no carrying around a whole punch of power that you dont need like an SUV does. They would be very narrow which would help with parking but you could also have flat bed pods for carrying big stuff. The possibilities are kind of endless because there could be millions of ways to configure the pods to whatever you want them to do.

Here is a link the the sparrow. It does not have a rear coupling but the Toyota one does. It was just a proto type and was never built but the sparrow was a production model.

http://www.hightechscience.org/sparrow.htm

Anyone like Zap cars?

http://www.zapworld.com/

"Is the car of the future really a car?"

Of course not. In the future we'll all have star trek type transporters.

I want a robot car that can drive itself.
Fully reclining seats, maybe a solar powered mini fridge, and a coffee maker, internet access...

Except when they prefect the car that can drive itself custom vans will be the coolest things ever and not the dork machines they are now.

Nissan had a car back in the late 80's early 90's that had multiple rear end configurations. Suburau had the Brat which had seats in the back of a pickup style bed. To me the best car is the one I don't own and have to pay for.:thumb: quickly followed by one that isn't on the road.:rolleyes:

Aaron:)

Remember the flying cars they were promising us, and the personal jetpacks? They said that these would be 'twenty-first century' items. Well, we're nearly 10 years into it--where are they? ;)

Remember the flying cars they were promising us, and the personal jetpacks? They said that these would be 'twenty-first century' items. Well, we're nearly 10 years into it--where are they? ;)

Mueller Air-car still being tested in 2009 I think, but 2005 Pod still around.

I want a robot car that can drive itself.
Fully reclining seats, maybe a solar powered mini fridge, and a coffee maker, internet access...

Except when they prefect the car that can drive itself custom vans will be the coolest things ever and not the dork machines they are now.

true shaggin wagon! :innocent:

Mueller Air-car still being tested in 2009 I think, but 2005 Pod still around.

That's a cool looking velomobile.

If Müeller ever starts paying attention to aeronautical theory maybe they will get the Air-Car to actually fly in the next 30 or 40 years.

The car of the future should be flexible enough to handle big loads. If you could take the back of the shell off and have a flat bed, you could carry your tuba easily. I'm thinking of something like a "convertible" El Camino--.

Before the economic meltdown GM had plans to bring the Australian Holden ute (utility vehicle) to the USA as a Pontiac sport truck in 2010. Now that it is likely that GM will keep only the Chevrolet and Cadillac brands after bankruptcy, the sport truck (if it comes to America) will be the new version of the El Camino.

It is actually one of the few cars I would consider buying. It would be useful to haul big stuff around with the comfort and gas mileage of a mid-size car.

GM's "skateboard" concept would be cool for that kind of thing. A slim, flat platform holds the powertrain and wheels, and you'd change bodies depending on your needs.

Now, where you keep those bodies is another issue. They've said that dealerships and such would be able to do it -- make an appointment, go there, and they dismount your small pickup body and install a two-seat roadster for a weekend getaway. What if there aren't any roadster bodies available, though?

I would like to be able to rent the different modules, and actually own the one I used most often. (I'd also like to be able to rent a bike trailer, but that's another topic.)

Assuming a 4,000 pound vehicle and a single 180 pound driver, like the majority of vehicles that roar past me on my daily bicycle commute, 96 cents of every dollar pumped into the gas tank is used to propel the machine, not the human riding inside. How did we ever let the dumbing down of America ever get this far?

Nissan had a car back in the late 80's early 90's that had multiple rear end configurations.

That was the Pulsar NX. Nearly every time I see one these days, it has the "hatchback" cover instead of the small-cargo-space notchback. Fun idea, but people tended to just pick one and stick with it.


Suburau had the Brat which had seats in the back of a pickup style bed.

I don't think those seats will pass any crash test today.

Suburau had the Brat which had seats in the back of a pickup style bed.

I think that was a way of getting the truck classified as a passenger car to get around CAFE standards and/or safety regulations.

I think that was a way of getting the truck classified as a passenger car to get around CAFE standards and/or safety regulations.

No, they were there just for fun. CAFE, emissions, and safety regs are looser for trucks (and many SUVs) than they are for cars anyway.

Assuming a 4,000 pound vehicle and a single 180 pound driver, like the majority of vehicles that roar past me on my daily bicycle commute, 96 cents of every dollar pumped into the gas tank is used to propel the machine, not the human riding inside. How did we ever let the dumbing down of America ever get this far?

That should make you think, but surprisingly most Americans seem to favor the larger packages. Apparently since the price of gas went south, so did the sales of the Toyota Pruis. On top of that, a news story today stating that in a collision with a larger car, a smaller car would fare poorly (who would have thought?) There's a real chance that large numbers of people will giving up their cars and the rest will go out and buy Hummers to stay safe. :(

depends where you live?

I think that was a way of getting the truck classified as a passenger car to get around CAFE standards and/or safety regulations.

I think the main reason for the cheesy (and successful) effort to get the Brat classified as a passenger car was to get around some sort of import limitation at the time on pickup trucks from Japan

That should make you think, but surprisingly most Americans seem to favor the larger packages. Apparently since the price of gas went south, so did the sales of the Toyota Pruis. On top of that, a news story today stating that in a collision with a larger car, a smaller car would fare poorly (who would have thought?) There's a real chance that large numbers of people will giving up their cars and the rest will go out and buy Hummers to stay safe. :(

The small car was a Smart car. The larger car was a MB. Sedan. It was an offset front end collision and the Smart car had serious passenger compartment intrusion. They must have displayed the test six times and each time you knew any passenger in the Smart car would have been dead. The left front of the Mercedes stops about where the Smart Car’s driver would be sitting.

The Prius is taking a sales hit. But at the price they were charging what could they expect?

Before the economic meltdown GM had plans to bring the Australian Holden ute (utility vehicle) to the USA as a Pontiac sport truck in 2010. Now that it is likely that GM will keep only the Chevrolet and Cadillac brands after bankruptcy, the sport truck (if it comes to America) will be the new version of the El Camino.

It is actually one of the few cars I would consider buying. It would be useful to haul big stuff around with the comfort and gas mileage of a mid-size car.

I had a Ford Falcon Ranchero at one point...about useless. It wouldn't carry as much weight, safely, as a 1/2 ton pickup and had none of the advantages of the sedan, ie; passenger capacity.

My favorite do all vehicle has always been the much maligned station wagon. Unfortunately they have all but disappeared from the US market. My mom wanted a Ford Focus wagon, I think she got the last one to roll of the line in 2007.


Aaron:)