Northern California - $436 ticket for rolling through a red light in Sausalito

Unfortunately, I was unlucky enough to get pulled over after running a red light on my bike in Sausalito. I just got my ticket in the mail and it's for $436! The punishment definitely doesn't fit the crime!

Anyway, I know I can't be the first person here to get one of these insanely expensive tickets and now I'm wondering how best to resolve the situation without having to pay the full amount of the fine. I assume that if I show up in court I can ask the judge to reduce the fine... anyone have experience in these matters? Or perhaps I should just get a lawyer... any recommendations for a lawyer?

Well, if you have any experience dealing with a similar ticket please share your advice.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

One thing I never understood. What's the rush? You can wait at a red light with a car NO PROBLEM... but on a bike apparently all cyclists are in a hurry. Just wait for the damn light! Biggest pet peeve for me is cyclists just blatantly running red lights... and then curse cars for not obeying this "3 foot space" law. No offense, but I'm glad Saus is doing this. Wish Berkeley would do the same.

Wow! I don't have any advice, but that seems awfully steep to me, even if it had been a car.

FWIW, I wait at red lights. If they don't change for a full cycle, then I'll roll on through if it's clear. At least then I have a valid argument for running it.

This thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=515642) may give you some good advice.

It wasn't in Sausalito but pretty close.

Not stopping for peds starting to cross the street will also get you a ticket in Sausalito.

Ouch! That sucks major league dog doo-doo.

No, you do not want to get a lawyer. I kind of doubt that it makes ense to pay a lawyer a couple of thou to get out of a $436 ticket. Of course, I wasn't an econ major . . . .

As for going to argue the ticket, that depends on what it'll cost you to do that. Will you have to burn vacation time? How much is that worth. There are lots of variables there, but you get the idea.

Also, I would not count on getting the amount reduced. Traffic tickets are money-makers for towns and for the courts. Seriously. Considering the state of government coffers these days, do not count on much in the way of leniency.

Of more concern - will this affect your auto insurance rates? I don't know the answer to that. But your main goal may be to get diverted to traffic school (I know - yuch) to keep the "points" off your license. Like I said, I don't know if infractions on a bike count against our driving record, but it is worth finding out.

Bikes are subjects to the same laws as cars; same rules, same punishments. It's not because we only have 2 wheels instead of 4 that we get a 50% discount.
I am sure you also drive, so try to imagine your reaction if you had a cyclist ride thru a red light in front of you.

Bikes are subjects to the same laws as cars; same rules, same punishments.

This is not accurate. Bike tickets will not go on one's driving record since they are unrelated, and therefore will not impact insurance rates. There are also different fine amounts for bike tickets and car tickets but sometimes the officer does not correctly note on the ticket that it was a bicycle ticket and so people get charged the car rates! If it is not specifically mentioned on your ticket that it is a bike ticket, you may have it dismissed by appearing in court.

In general there is no traffic school option for bike tickets unless a community has specifically created one and I think there is one in some parts (all?) of Marin so you may luck out! Look into it. I think it reduces the fine a lot.

Is your argument going to be that you did not roll through the stop sign? Or that you did, but it wasn't against the law?

You pays your money and takes your chances...

Ouch! That sucks major league dog doo-doo.

No, you do not want to get a lawyer. I kind of doubt that it makes ense to pay a lawyer a couple of thou to get out of a $436 ticket. Of course, I wasn't an econ major . . . .

As for going to argue the ticket, that depends on what it'll cost you to do that. Will you have to burn vacation time? How much is that worth. There are lots of variables there, but you get the idea.

Also, I would not count on getting the amount reduced. Traffic tickets are money-makers for towns and for the courts. Seriously. Considering the state of government coffers these days, do not count on much in the way of leniency.

Of more concern - will this affect your auto insurance rates? I don't know the answer to that. But your main goal may be to get diverted to traffic school (I know - yuch) to keep the "points" off your license. Like I said, I don't know if infractions on a bike count against our driving record, but it is worth finding out.

A traffic lawyer shouldn't run over $250 and most will guarantee that your ticket will be dismissed and cleared from your record or else they will refund your payment.

The cop said that points will not be taken from my license and that the ticket wouldn't affect my auto insurance.

and traffic school... nah, don't think I need that as I'm getting enough unsolicited "traffic school" advice here ;-)

Is your argument going to be that you did not roll through the stop sign? Or that you did, but it wasn't against the law?

You pays your money and takes your chances...

My argument would be that the light turned yellow just as I entered the interestion. It turned red about 3/4 to the other side, but I was still in interestion for a second or two of red. If I had been in a car I would have easily made it through the interestion while the light was yellow, but on my bike it took a little longer to cover the distance. I tried to explain to the officer that it would have been more dangerous for me to slam on my brakes at the sight of the yellow light, but he wasn't having it.

Hey did this happen on Sunday? If so I might have seen it, but the guy I saw clearly ran the red light, and right in front of a cop. I saw two cops after that talking to cyclists.

If you were into the intersection before it turned red, then you did not violate the law!

If you were into the intersection before it turned red, then you did not violate the law!

True. Redlight cameras only go off after the light turns red and THEN someone goes over the white line.

Somewhat related but I know in some states that (even in a car or motorcycle) if the light goes through 2-3 cycles then you can run it (providing no one else is coming). Now I've never had a problem going through a redlight if the road was clear and it wasn't picking me up. Which has happend to me on my motorcycle.

But if the light was straight up ran then yeah you deserve a ticket. We like to buy those plates and bumper stickers that say "Share the road" or "Same road same rules" etc. Then we run around like a bunch of drunk monkeys at "Critical Mass" hoping to make motorists appreciate us.

I had a speeding violation once in Marin county and went to court to contest. Believe me the judge is not one you want to deal with, she was tough, very tough. My luck was that the cop who assigned the ticket didn't show up, otherwise I was set for a month without driving. All the individuals who came before me got hit pretty hard.

If you were into the intersection before it turned red, then you did not violate the law!

The officer acknowledged that I entered the light while it was yellow, but said the law is that you must be out of the interection before the light turns red. I'll be calling a few traffic lawyers tomorrow to find out what my real options are. I'm glad to see that in the other thread that Knotty posted another guy eventually got off with only a $50 fine after attending "Bike Safety School" haha. I have hope!

BTW, this all happened Monday, April 6 around 1:30 pm.

I don't ride Marin too often, but I have noticed that the police pay extra attention to bikes there. Your best bet would be to become a bike messenger and tell everyone (courts, hospitals, landlords, tax collectors...) to get in the collections line.

I'm not a lawyer, but you might have a shot at this. The vehicle code says that you can't enter an intersection when a traffic light is red; all it says about yellow is that the driver is warned that the light is about to turn red. The code does not say the intersection must be cleared before the light turns red (although imagine how many problems it would solve it it did say something like that?!!). Even the cop agreed that you did not enter the intersection when the light was red. Unless Sausalito has it's own code that says the intersection must be cleared by the time a signal goes red (some cities do), maybe the judge would agree with your position.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd11c2a3.htm

JB

You can dramatically reduce the fine with bike safety course. Look up the local bike coalition in Sausalito/Marin for help on this.

The other thing you can do is boycott businesses in Sausalito and try to starve out the police funding. :-)

I have nothing personal against the OP (so don't take it personally) but there's something I don't understand from his post and some of the responses.
We, cyclists, are always complaining when car drivers don't give us any respect, yell at us, or worse push us out of the road. And here we have one of us who admits "running a red light" thus braking a major rule of the road and we try to find excuses to not pay the consequences. Guys, we cannot have one without the other, we cannot enjoy equal rights if we don't accept equal responsibilities.
If you admit "running a red light" what do you except in going to court and wasting tax payer money?
You knew what a traffic light means, you took your chance and lost. I understand you are pissed off, I would as well. But, please, get over it and, hopefully, learn from it!

And here we have one of us who admits "running a red light" thus braking a major rule of the road and we try to find excuses to not pay the consequences.

No, we have a cyclist who admits that he was still in the process of crossing the intersection when the light turned red. That is NOT the same as running a red light nor is it in violation of the California Vehicle Code - for either car drivers or cyclists. The CVC is very clear that you must not *enter* the intersection after the light turns red; entering on the yellow and then having the light turn red is not a violation.

I have nothing personal against the OP (so don't take it personally) but there's something I don't understand from his post and some of the responses.
We, cyclists, are always complaining when car drivers don't give us any respect, yell at us, or worse push us out of the road. And here we have one of us who admits "running a red light" thus braking a major rule of the road and we try to find excuses to not pay the consequences. Guys, we cannot have one without the other, we cannot enjoy equal rights if we don't accept equal responsibilities.
If you admit "running a red light" what do you except in going to court and wasting tax payer money?
You knew what a traffic light means, you took your chance and lost. I understand you are pissed off, I would as well. But, please, get over it and, hopefully, learn from it!

When the punishment doesn't fit the crime I do believe a person should object to said punishment. A fine of $436 is unreasonably high and almost twice the national standard. If that means voicing my opionion in a court of law, so be it. That's a part of how our legal system works and I don't feel it's a waste of my tax money.... especially, given my circumstance of entering the intersection during a yellow signal (which, in my opinion, was a safer decision than locking up my brakes at ~20 mph). I should have perhaps been given a stern warning from the officer, but a not a $436 ticket.

And speaking of equal rights... when did you last hear of a driver being fined $436 for not respecting cyclists? I didn't know "respect" for cyclists is a "major rule of the road." ... Apples and oranges in my OP.

No, we have a cyclist who admits that he was still in the process of crossing the intersection when the light turned red. That is NOT the same as running a red light nor is it in violation of the California Vehicle Code - for either car drivers or cyclists. The CVC is very clear that you must not *enter* the intersection after the light turns red; entering on the yellow and then having the light turn red is not a violation.

Actually, the OP admitted to running the red light in the original post. It was later on that he thought about the yellow light then the light turned red. It could be a matter of substituting ones reality to another in this case.;)

If you were into the intersection before it turned red, then you did not violate the law!

I know that this used to be the case in CA, but it is my understanding that the law was changed several years ago to it being necessary to exit the intersection before the light turned red. Can't find it, though.

Still looking......

A traffic lawyer shouldn't run over $250 and most will guarantee that your ticket will be dismissed and cleared from your record or else they will refund your payment.

The cop said that points will not be taken from my license and that the ticket wouldn't affect my auto insurance.

and traffic school... nah, don't think I need that as I'm getting enough unsolicited "traffic school" advice here ;-)

"Traffic lawyers"? Never heard of that flavor of barrister before. Not saying they don't exist, just that that's a new one on me.

As for what the cop told you: don't take his/her word for it. Maybe the cop is right, maybe the cop is wrong, but it isn't the cop who pays the price if it's the latter. Do your due diligence here, as it's your points and insurance at stake.

As for your last comment, maybe BF can start an on -line "bike traffic school" and make a few extra shekels. :p

As for your last comment, maybe BF can start an on -line "bike traffic school" and make a few extra shekels. :p

Maybe it could involve an Audi stn wagon going to the top of Diablo and dropping you off for a schooling back down... :twitchy:

Do your due diligence here, as it's your points and insurance at stake.

FYI, in California bike tickets do not go on DMV record and therefore do not impact insurance rates. There have been cases where it did end up on the DMV record but it was a mistake and can be removed. So all you are out in the case of a bike ticket is cold, hard cash.

I feel for you. I'm old enough to remember $5 parking tickets and $65 moving violations...

It does not matter what anyone states here as to their opinion about stopping or not stopping at red lights. Reality is, our system of laws is built on an adversarial system and that is how justice is served. You have every legal right to be represented by a professional on your side of that adversarial relationship so get a traffic lawyer, and my understanding is that they don’t cost that much.

If you don’t get an attorney the balance of power is all on the courts side, you are completely at the judge’s mercy. If you utilize a lawyer chances are it will be resolved before it gets to court for adjudication. Get one, go through the process; you have that legal right in this country, even Marin County.

I know that this used to be the case in CA, but it is my understanding that the law was changed several years ago to it being necessary to exit the intersection before the light turned red. Can't find it, though.

Still looking......

Some intersections in the bay area have way too short light cycles...you can start pedaling as soon as it turns green, but it will be red before you make it through. There are a few I even have a hard time making it through in a car. :rolleyes:

Some intersections in the bay area have way too short light cycles...you can start pedaling as soon as it turns green, but it will be red before you make it through. There are a few I even have a hard time making it through in a car. :rolleyes:

That's probably due to sensors which are not detecting cyclists, they will cycle quicker to the red to allow faster traffic clearing on the other road/street. The same sensors will prevent a light to turn green when only a rider is waiting, it needs a car waiting to trigger the light.

OUCH You got loved tenderly by the city of Sausalito.

One thing I never understood. What's the rush? You can wait at a red light with a car NO PROBLEM... but on a bike apparently all cyclists are in a hurry. Just wait for the damn light! Biggest pet peeve for me is cyclists just blatantly running red lights... and then curse cars for not obeying this "3 foot space" law. No offense, but I'm glad Saus is doing this. Wish Berkeley would do the same.


Bikes are subjects to the same laws as cars; same rules, same punishments. It's not because we only have 2 wheels instead of 4 that we get a 50% discount.
I am sure you also drive, so try to imagine your reaction if you had a cyclist ride thru a red light in front of you.

Tapeworm - What's the rush? Well, many of us find it really stupid to sit and wait at a red light (especially at 3 way intersections with no traffic coming from our right) when there is absolutely no danger in rolling through, and some lights will never turn green for cyclists, so we may have to wait 15-20 minutes for a car to come. I can't tell you how many people I see every day jaywalking etc., should they all be fined $436 also?

When legislators made the fine for running a red light $436 it was because so many pedestrians have been struck and killed by cars flying through red lights at high speed. This is extremely dangerous and deserves a high fine. When cyclists slow way down, look both ways, then proceed because it's clear and there are no cars around it is not dangerous and should nopt be subject to a citation.

If on the other hand a cyclist blazes through a red light at full speed (and with cross traffic having to slam on the brakes to avoid him/her), it's not only idiotic, but deserves a fine.

I think police officers should assess whether or not the act was dangerous to the cyclist and others, not just blindly fine all cyclists $436.

What really upsets me is that cops aren’t out there giving cyclists $436 tickets because of any danger to public safety. They’re taking advantage of the high fine that was imposed because of the highly dangerous act of drivers running red lights in order to raise as much money as possible in these tough economic times and they’re doing it at cyclists’ expense.

My argument would be that the light turned yellow just as I entered the interestion. It turned red about 3/4 to the other side, but I was still in interestion for a second or two of red. If I had been in a car I would have easily made it through the interestion while the light was yellow, but on my bike it took a little longer to cover the distance. I tried to explain to the officer that it would have been more dangerous for me to slam on my brakes at the sight of the yellow light, but he wasn't having it.

Do you have a copy of your summons? What law were you cited for violating? Have you looked up that law to see what it says?

Here is the California Vehicle Code regarding yellow lights:

Circular Yellow or Yellow Arrow

21452. (a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately thereafter.
(b) A pedestrian facing a steady circular yellow or a yellow arrow signal, unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal as provided in Section 21456, is, by that signal, warned that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway and shall not enter the roadway.

Amended Ch. 256, Stats. 1986. Effective January 1, 1987.

The question now is did the police considered you as a pedestrian or a driver?

Here is the California Vehicle Code regarding yellow lights:

The question now is did the police considered you as a pedestrian or a driver?

21456.2. (a) Unless otherwise directed by a bicycle signal as
provided in Section 21456.3, an operator of a bicycle shall obey the
provisions of this article applicable to the driver of a vehicle.

I would think that he would/should have been considered a pedestrian only if he were walking his bike in the crosswalk. Otherwise, he's considered a vehicle.

I would think that he would/should have been considered a pedestrian only if he were walking his bike in the crosswalk. Otherwise, he's considered a vehicle.

In that case there should not have been a ticket. I can't find in the vehicle code that a yellow light means STOP. As long as the OP did not delay cross traffic or cause any kind of disturbance/hazard to the flow of traffic he had the right of way.

I have actually been to traffic court to watch a friend argue a speeding ticket for cycling and win. It certainly can be done but if you want to try it you should go watch what really happens in court because there are a lot of myths and legends floating around out there about how to do it that are just complete BS. You watch people (mostly drivers of course) try to outsmart the cops and smooth talk the judge and they really suck at it. Knowing how the system works and understanding proper courtroom behaviour will be a big plus for you.

I think the OP has a good case assuming his story here is true.

1. Light turned yellow just as he entered the intersection - it is completely legit, legal, safe, and responsible to continue.

2. Light turned red before he got out - obviously it was a short light and it was reasonable and safe and legal to proceed through the intersection.

3. Cop misquoted the law - it does not say you have to be out before the light turns red. It does say you have to make sure you can actually make it through the intersection and if the traffic is stopped on the other side and there's no where for you to go you'd be blocking it (happens a lot in heavy slow traffic).

4. The fine is high because running red lights in a car is deadly but for bikes it's not. Even if you can't get the ticket thrown out for #1-3, you might get a reduced fine if you come across as a safe and courteous rider.

Or else fight it by written declaration using the above arguments.

If there is a section in the Vehicle Code aboutwhat you are supposed to do at a yellow light, they hid it awfully well. I couldn't find anything other than what has already been posted, and those statutes are singularly unhelpful.

FWIW, here's what the CA Driver Handbook says: "Solid Yellow- A yellow signal light means "CAUTION." The red signal is about to appear. When you see the yellow light, stop if you can do so safely. If you can’t stop safely, enter the intersection cautiously." Unfortunately, as with pretty much everything else in the Driver Manual, there is no statute or other authority cited.

That's probably due to sensors which are not detecting cyclists, they will cycle quicker to the red to allow faster traffic clearing on the other road/street. The same sensors will prevent a light to turn green when only a rider is waiting, it needs a car waiting to trigger the light.

I "RUN" a red light every night that way, if I'm lucky enough to actually trigger it (visual trigger, facing the setting sun...). There is absolutly no way to start from a dead stop, cross 6 traffic lanes and a wide planted median (2 each direction + 2 left turn lanes) before it turns red, I think the green light stays lit as long as the yellow does!

My unrelated 2cents :D

it happens, if you wanna fight it, fight it. I would just do what I would if I was in a car getting the ticket. Go to court, ask the judge to lower the fine then pay it.

I had my red light $361 reduced to about $160. this was in San Jose and many years ago.

This may have been included in one of the ticketing threads but I haven't seen it so....

http://vimeo.com/4140910

Thanks to SloJoeRecumbo over on BikeJournal for the link.

This may have been included in one of the ticketing threads but I haven't seen it so....

http://vimeo.com/4140910

Thanks to SloJoeRecumbo over on BikeJournal for the link.

Way to go Idaho!

I read somewhere that a similar move is currently under study in California as well. I think it is a great adjustment to the current laws of the road. However neither Idaho nor Oregon is implementing this law for traffic lights.
As mentioned in previous posts we sometimes have to go thru red lights because 1) the green doesn't stay long enough if a car is not detected by the sensors, or 2) the light will never turn green unless a car is also waiting to go thru the intersection. So I think a provision should exist for traffic lights as well under these circumstances.
As the Oregon video points out most cyclists will not force their way thru an intersection. We always lose against cars so unless in a suicide intent most cyclists always make sure the passage is safe before moving across.
At the minimum the law should allow police officers the discretion to evaluate if a cyclist endangered him/herself and other road users before issuing a ticket. Writing a ticket because the city needs money (or because the author get a pay increase) and not as a result of a dangerous action should be considered an abuse of power.

My wife is a court clerk and I've sat through a few sessions of traffic court waiting on her to get out. If you can, set up an evening/night court appointment. Bring a video of your situation and any witness that has the time. Stick to the facts that help you out. Don't be surprised if the officer that sited you doesn't remember you conversation. Don't be surprised that they don't show up. They get paid overtime for court appearance but often have other plans for after work. Many times you'll get a court comissioner that is more likely to judge than preach. You can sit in on traffic court anytime to observe. Might be worth while to learn your opponent.

Tapeworm - What's the rush? Well, many of us find it really stupid to sit and wait at a red light (especially at 3 way intersections with no traffic coming from our right) when there is absolutely no danger in rolling through, and some lights will never turn green for cyclists, so we may have to wait 15-20 minutes for a car to come. I can't tell you how many people I see every day jaywalking etc., should they all be fined $436 also?



If a light doesn't change for a cyclist, I totally understand running it. My problem is with cyclists coming to a red light full well knowing they're going to run it... which is 90%. Everytime I see it happen, I feel like we're moving backwards as a group that wants "equality."

I've been fined for jaywalking too. Different state, but think I jaywalk anymore? Hell no.

If a light doesn't change for a cyclist, I totally understand running it. My problem is with cyclists coming to a red light full well knowing they're going to run it... which is 90%. Everytime I see it happen, I feel like we're moving backwards as a group that wants "equality."

I think you're mistaken if you think most cyclists want "equality." We don't want to be like car drivers. We want the law and the public to recognize that our "vehicle" is different in many, many ways to huge motor vehicles and should not be regulated in the same way. Until they do so, we will just carry on cycling however we want, in the way that we feel is safest for us or provides some other benefit. And if that means paying a few tickets over the course of our lives, then fine. (I'm not talking about doing anything dangerous: i'm talking about slightly rolling through vacant intersections and doing "idaho stops" at stop lights).

If a light doesn't change for a cyclist, I totally understand running it. My problem is with cyclists coming to a red light full well knowing they're going to run it... which is 90%. Everytime I see it happen, I feel like we're moving backwards as a group that wants "equality."

I've been fined for jaywalking too. Different state, but think I jaywalk anymore? Hell no.

Are you saying that 90% of cyclists run red lights or that all cyclists run 90% of the lights?
Either way, you're totally wrong. Most cyclists I see (myself included) stop at all red lights at 4 way intersections unless they are making a right turn.

Are you saying you see cyclists who blow through red lights at 4 way intersections with no regard for their own safety? I've never seen this, and am guessing that anyojne who would act like this wouldn't be alive for too long.

The 3 way intersection is different though. I'll slow down and look left and if no one is coming (especially pedestrians) I'll proceed through slowly (I am close to the right curb and there is no traffic lane to the right). I did this a couple times a few weeks ago while going clockwise around Lake Merced in SF. I'd slow way down, look for pedestrians, then slowly roll through before the light turned green. After doing this twice an extremely angry red faced vein bulging motorist pulls over and starts screaming at me for breaking the law.

My question is why does this make people so angry? It doesn't affect him in any way and it's not dangerous.

I think it's for the same reason that some people hate and try to kill motorcyclists who are splitting lanes: They hate being stuck in their cages crawling along (or stuck at a meaningless light) and are jealous and filled with a primal rage.

I think it's for the same reason that some people hate and try to kill motorcyclists who are splitting lanes: They hate being stuck in their cages crawling along (or stuck at a meaningless light) and are jealous and filled with a primal rage.

Yeah. When I commute, people on Middlefield seem to get more and more irritated as I keep up with them for mile after mile of lights.