Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Brakes

My first 200K last weekend had a lot of hills, and my hands got so tired from squeezing the brake levers over the course of the 13 hours that I had to use both hands just to squeeze my water bottle by the time I was done.

The brakes have always required a lot of pressure on this bike, from the day I bought it, but it wasn't this kind of problem until I started doing longer distances. I'm a brake ignoramus; before I just take it to the LBS and just do whatever they say, any thoughts about what would most obviously cause this?

My hands aren't weak or small. The brakes are alloy dual pivots with Shimano Sora STI levers. I use KoolStop Salmon pads. Rims are whatever came stock on $700 Trek road bikes in 2006/7.

Everything got pretty muddy on the ride, which I'd imagine could make the mechanism harder to operate, but I don't know this for sure. (See "brake ignoramus," previously.)

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.

The first 100k Pop. this season was snowy/slushy/rainy and very hilly. I ended up with similar issues (not to your extent, though) by the end of the ride. At the end of the day, my hands were sore enough that I couldn't hold a knife properly to prepare dinner.

Might be related to mechanical advantage or lack there of. Check this out: link (http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html).

are you braking from on top of the hoods, or in the drops? (or both?)

i find that my fingers do tire faster when braking from the hoods (especially w/ the pacer, that has older non-STI brake levers).

Thanks.

BTW, I've been an all-weather commuter for a long time, so I know the difference between wet braking and dry braking. For the purposes of this thread, please assume it's not that.

are you braking from on top of the hoods, or in the drops? (or both?)

i find that my fingers do tire faster when braking from the hoods (especially w/ the pacer, that has older non-STI brake levers).

I'm doing 95% of my riding on the hoods. In the drops, it's hard to reach the brifters.

Thanks.

BTW, I've been an all-weather commuter for a long time, so I know the difference between wet braking and dry braking. For the purposes of this thread, please assume it's not that.

Not that it's a difference between wet/dry weather braking, more that I was thinking it's an issue less with the brakes and more with your hands. 13 hours is a long time to spend on the bike, especially if you're having to ride the brakes quite a bit. If your hands were starting to fatigue, might it have been a perceived difference in braking pressure instead of an actual mechanical difference with the brakes?

I know that my brakes worked fine after that 100k I mentioned, but they felt like trying to squeeze a brick when I was near the end of that ride.

No, I didn't mean to imply you meant to imply that. :) I just wanted to keep the conversation from going that way, because I know that's not what it is.

Usually, I'd agree with you, blame my hands, and assume everybody else is just better at this than I am--except that from the day I bought it, the difference between braking on this bike and braking on any other bike I've owned was noticeable.

FWIW, it might very well be the calipers. I have two bikes, one runs Campy Record calipers, swiss stop pads (black) and the other runs Tektro R730 long reach, swiss stop pads (black). Both bikes run Campy Ergo shifters. The Campy brakes just flat out perform better than the Tektro. Easier to squeeze and better modulation. I've done multiple hour rides with each and while the Tektro's don't wear me out they do take more energy to produce the same effect.

from the day I bought it, the difference between braking on this bike and braking on any other bike I've owned was noticeable.


FWIW, it might very well be the calipers.

I'm leaning toward faulting the calipers, too, based on what you've said. When I bought my Cross Check it stocked with Tektro Oryx cantis which were pretty weak on the stopping power, even with Kool Stop salmon pads and clean rims. I switched to CR720 wide-profiles and I get less hand fatigue on hilly rides.

I'm doing 95% of my riding on the hoods. In the drops, it's hard to reach the brifters.

That seems like a problem - you can shim your levers to make them easier to reach or swap to a different handlebar shape. Riding in the drops for descents is a really useful position - both for handling and for better braking leverage.

...from the day I bought it, the difference between braking on this bike and braking on any other bike I've owned was noticeable. If you've got an Allen wrench and any of those other bikes you've owned...

Allen wrench, yes. Other bikes, no.

Thanks, both of you. I've been thinking these aren't really the right handlebars for me, but I wanted to be sure I didn't just have the "buy something new!" itch. I'm not very experienced with drop bars--this is my first real road bike--so it's hard for me to judge what's a bad adjustment and what's the wrong bar. I have limited faith in the LBS, so maybe I'll just swap another bar in and see.

I'm doing 95% of my riding on the hoods. In the drops, it's hard to reach the brifters.

Then they're set up incorrectly or you're using a handlebar that doesn't work for you. The whole idea of STI is to be able to shift and brake from the drops. In fact, most manuals for STI shifters tell you that braking from the hoods is much weaker than from the drops.

I found that I can tell a difference between most brakes and Dura Ace. I swapped out my Came Creeks for the issues you describe. My wife's Sora's weren't much better. I got her a front Dura Ace from eBay and it's a ton better. The KoolStop pads help, but you have those.
I don't know your whole set up, but if it were mine I'd get at least a top end front caliper, keep the pads, and look into new cables and cable housing just for voodoo.

I also run my brakes "loose," that is, there is travel before they hit. I have small hands and find that I have more feel, srength and control closer to the end of the travel range. Having tem adjusted so they engage earlier wears out my hands too quickly.

I don't suppose anyone can recommend a shop in the NYC area with special knowledge of randonneuring?

...
I also run my brakes "loose," that is, there is travel before they hit. I have small hands and find that I have more feel, srength and control closer to the end of the travel range. Having tem adjusted so they engage earlier wears out my hands too quickly.

I think that's a good idea. Noteon, you might want to try this before making other (more expensive) changes!

After pondering this, is it because the lever is closer to the handlebar when it finally does engage?

You could look at using one of these to strengthen your forearms and hands. :)
https://host2.webhostingservers.net/avcssguitarbooks/content/images/Gadgets/gripmaster.jpg

I think my shifters are a better workout. :)

After pondering this, is it because the lever is closer to the handlebar when it finally does engage?

It might be. My reasoning is basically this: change something, and try it, and see if it made the problem better, or worse. One way or another, it will help you diagnose the problem and find the solution. Assuming your hand position remains more or less constant (such as on the hoods), then the force you can apply with your fingers may vary a bit over the range of movement. My impression is that you can apply more force with your fingers more bent, and less when they are relatively straight.

If your brake cable is so loose that your brake lever bottoms out, and the lever hits the bar, then you can't get full braking power, so you don't want the cable that loose. But as long as it never bottoms out, then you will be getting your full braking power somewhere.

You may be better off with different brakes, or different levers. I don't know. I just wouldn't spend money on anything before you've diagnosed the problem.

I would not recommend this:
https://host2.webhostingservers.net/avcssguitarbooks/content/images/Gadgets/gripmaster.jpg
Your hands have enough strength to do what you do in your life. Unnecessary finger exercise seems to me a shortcut to carpal tunnel syndrome.
That said, I do use one of these (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://guitargeek.com/gear/img/gibson_hummingbird.gif&imgrefurl=http://guitargeek.com/gearview/859/&usg=__f10aB67KS7JJCV-k3K1xhhtQC9M=&h=197&w=460&sz=25&hl=en&start=2&sig2=xmykyio1bRm75gFd-ALLvg&um=1&tbnid=NKcHe-OGqy56dM:&tbnh=55&tbnw=128&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgibson%2Bhummingbird%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=msH1Sa3kIN_flQeH0P2yDA) to strengthen my fingers...

Thanks for the suggestions. A combination of handlebar repositioning and new pads helped on this weekend's ride. The bike shop didn't adjust them looser as I requested (sometimes they fail to hear sentences that don't include the words "carbon fiber"), but I'll get that done next time.

keep us updated, I have the low end giant with sora. I think its amazing how much pressure you have to put on these to even suggest a stop. Coming from my Trek 4900 mtb, you could stop on a dime!

I was about to switch to the koolstops to see if that made an improvement. What exactly did you end up doing?

New pads (KoolStop Salmon, same as the old ones), and a new stem to move the handlebars slightly up and slightly back, plus they rotated the bars slightly to give me a little better access to the shifters.

I also made two conscious changes to my technique on this ride (300K). One was to unlearn my habit of relying mostly on the front brakes when the situation doesn't require a quick stop. I figured I could spread the day's overall effort between the two hands more evenly. The other was to try, when riding on the hoods, to extend my fingers a little farther down the lever and get a bit more leverage for the shift.

The 300K was hillier than the 200K where I first had the problems, and my hands don't feel as bad, so I think I'm on the right track. But I'm also convinced I need a real fitting if I'm going to keep randonneuring.

Allen wrench, yes. Other bikes, no.

Thanks, both of you. I've been thinking these aren't really the right handlebars for me, but I wanted to be sure I didn't just have the "buy something new!" itch. I'm not very experienced with drop bars--this is my first real road bike--so it's hard for me to judge what's a bad adjustment and what's the wrong bar. I have limited faith in the LBS, so maybe I'll just swap another bar in and see.

I realize STIs fit differently from Ergos, but when I first went to an Ergo lever set-up I had a Ritchey ergonomic bar, that did not let my fingers decently reach the brake lever. I picked a Nitto Noodle to move my hands forward when in the drop. Plus the ramps are pretty flat, so it's easy to get good brake leverage from the hoods.

There is a mechanical possibility: the cold or gunk affecting the pivots in your calipers - essentially excess friction making them hard to pull. Can you disassemble, clean, and rebuild the calipers? If you do this, put in some kind of lube that won't run when there's water, and that won't change viscosity too much in the cold. Phil's green grease?

Road Fan

Can you disassemble

Yes!


clean

Yes!


and rebuild

Oh, um, hmm.