Advocacy & Safety - Vicious Jogger

Just thought I'd share (cause, you know, sharing is caring or something like that):

My wife and I went for a short ride today on the local trails. They're all within the city so they get quite a bit of foot traffic as well as bike traffic. My wife and I aren't particularly fast. Actually, we're quite slow when we ride together. I think we averaged about 11 today.

All in all we had almost no problems.

That was until the end of the ride. We passed a jogger. My wife said "on your left" before. He was one the far right of the trail. We rode by giving him probably 2-3 feet of space: Plenty when you're going 12mph and we're all clearly capable of maintaining a straight line.

As we rode by the guy muttered. My wife couldn't understand it and neither could I. I said "oh, sometimes joggers mutter to themselves, he was probably saying 'one more mile' or something like that."

We stopped about two blocks down the trail for a break. He came running by after we'd been standing for a few minutes. I turned hearing him talk to hear him spout on about how weak our signal was. I said something (I'm hard to set off, so I can assure you I said it in a kind voice) and he called us fat asses and lance wannabes.

At this point I'd like to give you a picture of us. I'm about 5'9". I weigh 180lbs and I'm wearing jean shorts and a tshirt. I did have on "moon shoes" (Shimano's touring shoe) but other than that normal clothes. I'm riding a Surly Cross Check with fenders, a rack, a pannier, and a B17 saddle. In no way could I be mistaken for a lance wannabe. I know, cause I have those clothes and that bike too!
My wife is no lance wannabe either. Although she was on that style of low end road bike.

Well, I didn't say much until he'd gone a ways. I suppose I yelled some, um, foul language at him as he left: I guess I'm no angel. We saddled up later and went on. We stopped at the bike shop to drop something off and then continued again.

Then we catch up to him. Yay. One of us may have said something rude to him as we passed the second time: Clear across the other end of the 14' trail.

He then screamed at us and pointed threateningly until we were too far away to hear him. I yelled back that that was assault. I figured that if we ran into him again it'd be good for him to have been warned before I called 911.

We managed to avoid him the rest of the way home, although, thanks to the light, we took a shortcut to do so.

This is the first time I've been assaulted by a jogger. The cagers do it constantly, but this is the first time by someone outside the cage.

I must admit I'm a bit afraid. I might avoid the trails for a while. Cars aren't scary. Angry monkeys are.

Just ignore them. The fact that you engaged the jerk in conversation when he made his initial muttering was problem #1 - that's what he wanted in the first place.

-Kurt

At some level, a `Lance wannabee' is just some guy on a bike.
You could have retorted and called him a (look up some famous runners) `Jeff Galloway wannabee' ...

Next time you see him, yell "Run Forest! Run!"

I guess I missed the actual assault part. Pointing was it?

I guess I missed the actual assault part. Pointing was it?

I read it twice and couldn't figure out how they were assaulted. Maybe the pushing or throwing part was left out?

If he was pointing a finger in a manacing manner I think the authorities should have been notified.

If he was pointing a finger in a manacing manner I think the authorities should have been notified.

Really? What should he do after the police were done laughing?

2 feet is not enough, your fault.

Oh wait he wasn't a cyclist, so obviously he is at fault.

I guess I missed the actual assault part. Pointing was it?

I felt he was about to get violent. The threat of violence is assault, yes.

2 feet is not enough, your fault.

Oh wait he wasn't a cyclist, so obviously he is at fault.

Really? At 12mph? Shall I give 10 feet next time? Maybe I should just ride 3mph if there is anyone walking on a trail.

2 feet is plenty. I've never come close to touching a ped.

Really? What should he do after the police were done laughing?

I think he's being sarcastic. It's a common form of dialog. I'm a big fan actually.

I read it twice and couldn't figure out how they were assaulted. Maybe the pushing or throwing part was left out?

I think that's called battery.

Next time I'll say "harassed."

Just ignore them. The fact that you engaged the jerk in conversation when he made his initial muttering was problem #1 - that's what he wanted in the first place.

-Kurt

No we did not. We said "left" or "on your left", he muttered. We discussed. We stopped. He caught up (he couldn't hear our discussion) and began to yell at us.

If I didn't tell it right the first time I apologize, that's my fault. But no, he definitely started up the yelling a couple minutes after the passing event.

My wife tells me that what he was saying was that we're not supposed to call "on your left" unless in a group and that he could hear us coming from a mile away or something to that effect. So I'm really confused now why he was mad.

The guy is probably the same way with other people, on bikes or not. There are cranky people who jog, after all.

I felt he was about to get violent. The threat of violence is assault, yes.
Technically, yeah...but he was on foot, you were on bicycles, already a fair distance away from him, and moving further away by the second. There was no immediate way he could hurt you, unless you chose to approach him. Unless he was threatening to track you down later, the threat of violence was nil.

I can't imagine any DA trying to get assault charges to stick. His actual crime, in technical legal terms, is "being an *******", and the standard punishment is that everyone around you knows you're an *******, and reacts accordingly. No doubt the penalty is already being applied rigorously in his case.


Edit: Does remind me of an exchange from a Dave Barry book, though:

"I hope you realize you just committed assault."
"I know, I know. I remember time was you actually had to hit somebody."

"My wife said "on your left" before. He was one the far right of the trail. We rode by giving him probably 2-3 feet of space"


My state has a 3 foot passing law. Seems like if the lane is 14 feet wide, and he was all the way over, you could've given more than 2 feet of clearance.

I know it’s the accepted thing to do, and I know it’s better than just sneaking up on people, but I HATE IT when somebody says "On your left!" to me. Or even worse, just "Left!" The idea was to give a little warning, like a tap on a car's horn from a bit of distance; but the way it’s worked out is to be just a way of saying "Get out of my way." It’s never soon enough to react to, it’s often too soft, and it’s occasionally muttered at my Right elbow as I'm trying to ease around a walker myself. I pass at 5 or 6 mph and I ding my stupid little bell from 30 feet back and I try to be the cyclist the peds don't remember when they're thinking about how folks go too fast in the place they thought was going to be a lot more quiet and peaceful than it turns out to be. And if I want to go faster, or maintain my speed for some reason? Roads. That's what they're for, after all.

"I must admit I'm a bit afraid. I might avoid the trails for a while. Cars aren't scary. Angry monkeys are."


I think sometimes folks are so used to the isolation that modern life affords us, that dealing with strangers in unscripted situations really can make us afraid. But the solution to that isn't to stay home and dehumanize the rest of your fellow humans; it's to get out there on the path among them. So he's a thin-skinned cheeser and over-reacted to some little everyday slight; there's lots of us like him out there and we get to keep using the path.

I felt he was about to get violent. The threat of violence is assault, yes.

If you really think this is true, you should check the actual laws in your state. Where I live, the threat has to be credible, putting you in actual, credible fear of being harmed. A man on foot raising his voice and pointing his finger, while you're on a bike, would never meet that standard. Why do I know this? I was on a jury with just that question. Now if he'd been holding a gun, even if it was pointed at the ground, while he was yelling at you, that would be assault (at least that's what we thought and we convicted him).

I hope to never live in a world where what you're talking about is actually chargable assault.


The guy is probably the same way with other people, on bikes or not. There are cranky people who jog, after all.

My thoughts exactly: the thread title should have been "cranky jogger". Vicious? that's funny.

You don't have bells yet? Peds like them.

I was standing in my driveway this morning and a car full of teenagers drove by. One of them yelled "Crackhead hippie!".

Urban static...

If you really think this is true, you should check the actual laws in your state. Where I live, the threat has to be credible, putting you in actual, credible fear of being harmed. A man on foot raising his voice and pointing his finger, while you're on a bike, would never meet that standard. Why do I know this? I was on a jury with just that question. Now if he'd been holding a gun, even if it was pointed at the ground, while he was yelling at you, that would be assault (at least that's what we thought and we convicted him).

I hope to never live in a world where what you're talking about is actually chargable assault.



My thoughts exactly: the thread title should have been "cranky jogger". Vicious? that's funny.

He wasn't cranky. I'm cranky. He was spewing. People who call you "fat lance wannabes" aren't crankee.

I'm not making a legal case out of this so I don't see the need to back up my terms with multiple witnesses and legal proof. I might have picked harass instead of assault. I just tend to use the term assault.

Really didn't think that would be so controversial.

"My wife said "on your left" before. He was one the far right of the trail. We rode by giving him probably 2-3 feet of space"


My state has a 3 foot passing law. Seems like if the lane is 14 feet wide, and he was all the way over, you could've given more than 2 feet of clearance.

I know it’s the accepted thing to do, and I know it’s better than just sneaking up on people, but I HATE IT when somebody says "On your left!" to me. Or even worse, just "Left!" The idea was to give a little warning, like a tap on a car's horn from a bit of distance; but the way it’s worked out is to be just a way of saying "Get out of my way." It’s never soon enough to react to, it’s often too soft, and it’s occasionally muttered at my Right elbow as I'm trying to ease around a walker myself. I pass at 5 or 6 mph and I ding my stupid little bell from 30 feet back and I try to be the cyclist the peds don't remember when they're thinking about how folks go too fast in the place they thought was going to be a lot more quiet and peaceful than it turns out to be. And if I want to go faster, or maintain my speed for some reason? Roads. That's what they're for, after all.

"I must admit I'm a bit afraid. I might avoid the trails for a while. Cars aren't scary. Angry monkeys are."


I think sometimes folks are so used to the isolation that modern life affords us, that dealing with strangers in unscripted situations really can make us afraid. But the solution to that isn't to stay home and dehumanize the rest of your fellow humans; it's to get out there on the path among them. So he's a thin-skinned cheeser and over-reacted to some little everyday slight; there's lots of us like him out there and we get to keep using the path.

Your state has a 3 foot passing law for cars passing slow moving vehicles. Big difference. The car is passing a 15mph vehicle at 35mph. Verse an 8mph ped at 12mph. See the difference?

We probably gave more than 2 feet but I didn't want to exaggerate my distance as it wasn't high on my mind and I didn't want to sound like I was being perfectly pleasant: I'm sure I did something wrong.

This wasn't the time when you calmly say "I'm sorry." Calmness wasn't going to diffuse this guy. Keeping my mouth shut didn't diffuse him. He yelled until we were out of sight and we weren't egging him on (yet, we did that later). We were sort of flabbergasted at that time.

In thousands of miles on these trails I've never seen anyone so pissed off.


Anyway, I suspect that the guy may have felt the "left" was asking him to move over. That's really not the case. I use it as a warning to mean: "Please don't move to the left until I pass." And I think that's the normal meaning. "Excuse me!" is what you say when you need them to move because they're blocking the whole trail.


You can't pass a jogger at 6mph. They're going 6mph.

I think that there was a thread on here somewhere the whole "on your left thing"...

It can get annoying

Ride safely, pass safely, allow room go around, protect yourself, watch out for vulnerable parties, yeah there are those more vulnerable than a cyclist.

Now if he'd been holding a gun, even if it was pointed at the ground, while he was yelling at you, that would be assault (at least that's what we thought and we convicted him).


I would definitely agree with that. I'm not trying to make a legal case. "Assault" was obviously a poor choice of words. Next time I'll tell him "shut the blankety blank up you freaking scumbag prick."

Really? At 35mph? Shall I give 10 feet next time? Maybe I should just drive 12mph if there is anyone riding a bike.

2 feet is plenty. I've never come close to touching a Cyclist.
We see a commonality here?

We see a commonality here?

Yes I see where you changed 12mph to 35mph. That's 3 times the speed and easily 4 times the difference in speed. So should cars give us 8 feet when they're doing 35mph.

What I'm seeing is you giving no usable guidelines.

How many feet StrangeWill? How many feet?

While cycling I've encountered rude joggers. While running I've encountered rude cyclists. That being said, there are 2 sides to the OP's story. Just sayin'

I would definitely agree with that. I'm not trying to make a legal case. "Assault" was obviously a poor choice of words. Next time I'll tell him "shut the blankety blank up you freaking scumbag prick."

I hope you don't think I'm disagreeing that he was a scumbag jerk - probably was. Assault and vicious just seemed a little overboard and I was on my high horse.

In situations like this, the little devil on my shoulder would have advised me to say exactly what you quote above. The little angel on the other shoulder would have advised me to smile condescendingly and ignore him or say something sarcastic like "thanks for sharing friend". Who usually wins that battle for my mouth depends on the day and my mood, although at age 55 I tend to grit my teeth and listen to the angel. When I was in my early 20s commuting regularly in big cities, I would scream, pound on hoods, windows and fenders, mildly bump or otherwise intimidate pedestrians, and generally wouldn't turn my cheek to any offense by pedestrians or cars. Not so much anymore because there's usually no point except ventilating and the downside is actual physical confrontation which is rarely worth it. But I still know the words and which finger to wave!

Not too much bothers me anymore, just grew a thicker skin as time went on. Not even last week when a motorist, while I was waiting for a stoplight, who threw a constant volley of "Idiot", "Moron", "Your stupid", "Your not a car", "Get on the sidewalk", "You don't belong on the road", "What do you think you're doing? (repeat previous sentence several times) could barely make me respond anymore.

Next time, spray him with Halt!

You let the ranting of some random nobody get so far up your nose that it ruins your whole day to the point that you need to vent on a forum? sheesh, c'mon, seriously mate, you have to do something about that tissue-paper-thin skin of yours. At this rate you better just stay indoors all day and avoid contact with all other human beings otherwise you'll have ulcers by this time next week.

If I can actually hear the comments of strangers then it's a sure sign that I haven't turned up the volume on my i-pod quite high enough.

Dont feed the trolls

If I can actually hear the comments of strangers then it's a sure sign that I haven't turned up the volume on my i-pod quite high enough.

Truth.

Yes I see where you changed 12mph to 35mph. That's 3 times the speed and easily 4 times the difference in speed. So should cars give us 8 feet when they're doing 35mph.

What I'm seeing is you giving no usable guidelines.

How many feet StrangeWill? How many feet?
Actually it's more about how we all define our guidelines.

The cyclists tell motorists and pedestrians what is best for them.

The pedestrians tell motorists and cyclists what is best for them.

The motorists tell cyclists and pedestrians what is best for them.

Two feet is plenty in this situation.

StrangeWill, does it bother you more that you think the OP broke the law, or that you think he put the jogger in danger?

In all my years on a bike, I've never had a problem with a jogger. Most joggers maintain a straight line and are easy to get around. I have experienced problems with both dog walkers and roller bladers. Reel type leashes seem to be all the rage with dog walkers around here. Getting around a dog and owner with ten feet worth of leash between them occasionally turns into a problem. Roller bladers tend not to hold a straight line. In addition, most of them have their brains plugged into iPods so they can't(don't want) to hear you call out. Things have gotten ugly a few times.

Dont feed the trolls

Don't be a trite (Soda) Jerk.

I think that there was a thread on here somewhere the whole "on your left thing"...

It can get annoying

There have been a ton of posts from cyclists who are shocked, shocked every time when pedestrians and other cyclists sometimes don't respond as expected when club cyclist jargon is yelled at them. :rolleyes:

Next time, spray him with Halt!

+1

Then get off the bike and beat him with your frame pump a few times. :D

Another idea is to build a beater assault bike. A big heavy old mtb with some sort of spear out front. Maybe some ben hur style axle spikes.

I must admit I'm a bit afraid. I might avoid the trails for a while. Cars aren't scary. Angry monkeys are.

Better not go for a ride in your closet then. might run into this fellow.....

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8520/angrymonkey3uv.gif

Most pedestrians & dog walkers on the MUP here have virtually no sense of propriety when it comes to using the trails. I never pass anyone at 12mph, because I have to consider the possibility that they'd wander into my path despite my bell warnings. I've observed so many folks sporting earbuds on the trail that I assume most everyone won't hear any audible warning.

Yesterday I encountered a pair of dogwalkers with three large dogs looming on the trail in the distance.
They completely ignored the bell, forcing me to ride around & off the trail, and were noticeably irked & startled as I passed. My 'good afternoon' was met with dirty looks as I whizzed by at at a dizzying 5mph.

Most pedestrians & dog walkers on the MUP here have virtually no sense of propriety when it comes to using the trails. I never pass anyone at 12mph, because I have to consider the possibility that they'd wander into my path despite my bell warnings. I've observed so many folks sporting earbuds on the trail that I assume most everyone won't hear any audible warning.

Yesterday I encountered a pair of dogwalkers with three large dogs looming on the trail in the distance.
They completely ignored the bell, forcing me to ride around & off the trail, and were noticeably irked & startled as I passed. My 'good afternoon' was met with dirty looks as I whizzed by at at a dizzying 5mph.

You really can't get by with that on our trails. These are in city trails. On a nice day there will be a walker every 100 feet. Everyone is so used to the "on your left" and bells that we all know it means "go in a straight line." Most of the pedestrians love it so much that they yell "thank you" as they pass.

It's generally a nice system where cyclists can still keep a respectable clip to get where they're going and pedestrians don't get scared everytime a cyclist passes.

In all my years on a bike, I've never had a problem with a jogger. Most joggers maintain a straight line and are easy to get around. I have experienced problems with both dog walkers and roller bladers. Reel type leashes seem to be all the rage with dog walkers around here. Getting around a dog and owner with ten feet worth of leash between them occasionally turns into a problem. Roller bladers tend not to hold a straight line. In addition, most of them have their brains plugged into iPods so they can't(don't want) to hear you call out. Things have gotten ugly a few times.

That's what made it so shocking to me!

Better not go for a ride in your closet then. might run into this fellow.....

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8520/angrymonkey3uv.gif

Hey man, that monkey's pissed. Did you see what happened with his wife?!

Things have gotten ugly a few times.

All right, out with it. Let's hear the Spike Bike stories.

-Kurt

next time you see him, yell "run forest! Run!"

+1000

There have been a ton of posts from cyclists who are shocked, shocked every time when pedestrians and other cyclists sometimes don't respond as expected when club cyclist jargon is yelled at them. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I never use the phrase unless it is to a cyclist.

When cycling on the MUP I simply say "good morning" or good afternoon" or if I am rapidly approaching (descending a hill) I yell, "cyclist arriving" or "cyclist approaching."

Seems just keeping things simple and friendly is the best approach.

Once I was standing on a sidewalk for a job and this couple on a tandem was coming right at me. So I stood my ground, and the couple on the tandem had to squeeze by me. The wife said something along the line of 'Nice job!" at me (I have no idea what she said, I had my earphones on).

You know what I said? I said nothing. They stared at me, I stared at nothing particular, and they just rode away.

You know what I could of said? I could of shouted back "BICYCLES BELONG ON THE STREET!", but what would that gotten me? More shouting? Why do I want more shouting?

So the best thing to do, sometimes, is to do nothing.

Two feet is plenty in this situation.

StrangeWill, does it bother you more that you think the OP broke the law, or that you think he put the jogger in danger?

No, it's an observation of who defines what they feel they're safe with, and how each group tries to tell the other groups what they should feel is safe, and we are no different than motorists and pedestrians in this somewhat unfair call. We go by what we think is safe, this guy obviously didn't think so... motorists do the same and we're up in arms.

Not that I care that much about it, it's just an interesting conflict with the dynamic of the groups, and something most people wont bother to think about.

Next time you see him, yell "Run Forest! Run!"

Do this. It's hilarious.

Also: get a bell. I just got home from a rail trail ride and the pedestrians responded very positively to mine.

I've only had a few encounters with walkers. Even with me sometimes coming flying down a hill and inches from disaster as I slam on the brakes to barely miss them. I apalogize and usually they just laugh and say don't worry about it.

I went by one teenager who was jogging with me going a little faster than I probalby should have. He was coming towards me and I thought he was moving to get out of the way so I kept going but he decided to stay on course. He said "Fworder" so I slammed on my brakes, jumped off and then started charging him. He took off. Now he was a CC runner so there was no way I could catch him but it was funny. He keeps his mouth shut everytime I see him now.

Best way to avoid a confrontation is when one does start something step the crazy up. People don't expect people to overreact and when someone does they freak out and usually try and back out. That should be Man Rule #1