Tandem Cycling - Hope vented disc

Has anybody used a Hope vented rotor? Did it seem to make any difference in braking? any problems with set up?

Have not, but curious if you have a photo? What diameter? 203mm

PK

https://www.cambriabike.com/Images/product/hope_v2_vented_rotor.jpg
This is Hopes 203 mm tandem rated vented rotor
Problem at the moment is they are too wide to fit avid calipers, but I think there might be a work around for that.
Vented should run cooler, floating should prevent warping.
I think it is worth further investigation.

Solution looking for a problem at least as far as road tandems go. Off road it could have some merits.

Solution looking for a problem at least as far as road tandems go. Off road it could have some merits.


I disagree, problem is overheating rotors on steep desents, there are plenty of 10% mile and longer down hills here in the Santa Cruz Mtns. I would like to have as much brake as is reasonably possible. Weight is still part of my reasonable formula so I am not considering a front disc.

I've got them front and rear on my mountain tandem. They are the sweetest brake assembly (levers, calipers and rotors) I've ever ridden. No fade, no noise; perfect.

I disagree, problem is overheating rotors on steep desents,

Trust me when I say I understand. However, the problems that the dual rotors solve aren't directly applicable to the long steep descents that we encounter with road tandems: even Santana's 10" rotors haven't been able to deal with the cumulative heat build-up that occurs on long asphalt descents where there just isn't any recovery time for heat dissipation.

Off-road is a different story where you'll have sufficient time between descents for the improved cooling to yield improved braking performance given the lower coefficient of fiction that soft, dirt trails create vs. slick road tires and asphalt.

That rotor is very nice. If you find a solution (caliper) that will let you use a road brake set up I would be willing to give it a go. We use the avid set-up, 203mm rotor and if used properly, works fine on steep decents. I have destroyed rotors in the past, buying those fancy, cauliflower looking things. Didn't last one ride in the hills, and we ride them alot. Too bad hope doesn't make a cable operated caliper for road bikes.

Disc has arrived and and preliminary modifacations of the Avid BB7 look good, hope to have everything installed and running early next week. If you do not see any further posts from me assume modifactions did not work.

Disc has arrived and and preliminary modifacations of the Avid BB7 look good, hope to have everything installed and running early next week. If you do not see any further posts from me assume modifactions did not work.

Nice. I will probably follow in your footsteps if it works out. :thumb:

I'm still interested. We also have long, steep decents here in Sonoma county. My standard 203mm Avid is up to the task if used properly, but U gotta love that Hope. Just what are U doing to squeeze that rotor in between the pads on thr BB7?

We ride the Auburn/Placerville hills most of the time. I have used the standard Hope 203mm floating disc (non-vented) for about six months, and it is a huge improvement compared to the Avid disc. The biggest difference I have noticed is that the disc does not warp after it has been used for several long, technical descents where front/rear modulation is needed. In less that 1500 miles, I had to get the Avid Disc trued twice. I have yet to detect any warp with the Hope disc. The Hope brake still retains it's stopping ability far longer than Avid. In addition, the lack of rotor warp allows the disc/pad tolerances to be set very tight. It is also very quiet.

I'm still interested. We also have long, steep decents here in Sonoma county. My standard 203mm Avid is up to the task if used properly, but U gotta love that Hope. Just what are U doing to squeeze that rotor in between the pads on thr BB7?

same here, i'd like to see how this BB7 modification will be done.
i'm guessing chichi will open the caliper body in halves and insert a spacer when he mates them back.

I have used the standard Hope 203mm floating disc (non-vented) for about six months, and it is a huge improvement compared to the Avid disc

+1. This is a good mid-point between the stock Avid rotors and something like the vented model IMHO.

However, like any geek I'll be anxious to hear out chichi's set-up works and how it was accommodated with the Avid BB7 Road.

same here, i'd like to see how this BB7 modification will be done.
i'm guessing chichi will open the caliper body in halves and insert a spacer when he mates them back.

Yes putting spacers between the 2 halves is the plan. A 1mm washer looks like it will do the trick. A cleaner job would be to get some shim stock and file it to the shape of the BB7. There are 2 styles of BB7 brakes one is closed on top the other which I believe is newer is open on top. The open top looks easier to modify.

We were in SLO this past weekend to do the SLO Wildflower on Saturday. On Sunday we rode down See Canyon Road which has about 1.5 miles at 10%+ (or so I have read). We also rode it last year, when we rode it last year we had only been riding a tandem for 5 months and it was our first seriously steep downhill. Last year was pretty scary and it seemed prudent to stop part way down and let things cool off for a few minutes. This year with another 12 months and 3500 miles under our belts it was pretty uneventful. While we were on a different bike this year both had Avid discs in back. Point of this ramble is operators experience made a huge difference in braking. I do not expect the new setup will change things as much as experience has, but I do think I will have best possible disc performance without warping problems at a small weight penalty of 3 to 4 oz. Maybe I will have to go belt drive to get things back to spec.

Now there ya go. I'm gonna do that brake mod myself if it works out. I dig that rotor, functional bling to boot. You can overheat any braking system if not used properly. Do U have a part # for that piece?

Yes putting spacers between the 2 halves is the plan. A 1mm washer looks like it will do the trick. A cleaner job would be to get some shim stock and file it to the shape of the BB7. There are 2 styles of BB7 brakes one is closed on top the other which I believe is newer is open on top. The open top looks easier to modify.

is the HOPE floating rotor designed to be paired with a floating caliper? i just thought about addressing any rubbing issues.

[QUOTE=TandemGeek;8835752]+1. This is a good mid-point between the stock Avid rotors and something like the vented model IMHO.Quote

I had started out down this path with the standard floating disc in mind as others have used it sucessfully, I sent a message to Hope about something and they informed me that their only tandem "aproved" rotor was the vented model. So now I will have an aproved rotor with a an unaproved Avid caliper, I guess that doesn't make much sense. Altough I do like the idea of additional cooling capacity.

We have used floating rotors w/solid mount calipers on road racing motorcycles with good results

is the HOPE floating rotor designed to be paired with a floating caliper? i just thought about addressing any rubbing issues.

Unless I'm not seeing something, and Vault Guru can correct me here, but it would appear that what Hope is calling a floating rotor is really just a semi-floating rotor. In other words, it's a two piece rotor where the rotor is bolted to the mounting splines in a fixed position. True floating rotors like the ones you'd find on a motorcycle allow the braking surface to move around a bit. Both will help reduce warping and do a better job of managing heat. Again, I could be wrong as I've not been paying attention to the off-road tandem stuff and haven't even had our own Hope disc equipped tandem out in about 18 months.


I sent a message to Hope about something and they informed me that their only tandem "aproved" rotor was the vented model.

That's some funny stuff. As mentioned, we've had a couple full-suspension off-road tandems (http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/gallery/ventana_web.jpg)since 2000and both were fitted with Hope's tandem-approved 04DH / Enduro four-pot hydraulic discs brakes. Want to take a guess at what kind of rotors were sold with these units? Yup, 203mm and 180mm one-piece rotors.

On the bright side, very few components used on our tandems are 'tandem-approved' and/or have been tandem-approved on again and off-again depending on the latest FUD (Fear Uncertainty & Doubt) du jour.

TG i think the float may be in the rotors ability to expand verticly, I do not see any horizontal float.

"That's some funny stuff. As mentioned, we've had a couple full-suspension off-road tandems (http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/gallery/ventana_web.jpg)since 2000and both were fitted with Hope's tandem-approved 04DH / Enduro four-pot hydraulic discs brakes. Want to take a guess at what kind of rotors were sold with these units? Yup, 203mm and 180mm one-piece rotors.

On the bright side, very few components used on our tandems are 'tandem-approved' and/or have been tandem-approved on again and off-again depending on the latest FUD (Fear Uncertainty & Doubt) du jour"

Can't say that I am suprised to here this, it is hard to imagine that these small companies would have the budget to do any legitamete testing of thier components and particulrly to the even smaller tandem market. If they did test, to what standard would they be testing? I suspect one of the bigger test may be "Whats our current overstock?"

lets move this thread to the top, it's an interesting one

Things are not going well with the vented disc project. When the caliper is spaced to allow for the wider disc the spring clip that retains the brake shoes* does not overlap the caliper body sufficiently. I will post some pictures later today or tomorrow maybe somebody will have an idea to save this project. Another option would be to find another brand of mechanical caliper that is up to the task. Any input is appreciated.

* not the spring that pushes the brake shoes away from the disc.

Damn

I am trying to find a Hayes or IRD double banger, maybe they can be opened up to accommodate the wider vented disc.

My understanding from my son, who is the mechanical engineer in our family, is that the "floating" concept for the Hope is 1. it is not stamped from a single piece of steel. The float comes from an outer caliper (steel) fastened to spokes (aluminium). 2. They have different expansion and contraction rates when heat is applied and can absorb/transfer heat at different rates. The disc heats up when brakes are applied and the heat is dissipated from air cooling and from the efficient heat transfer to the aluminium spokes. 3. the rivets that bond the caliper to the spokes probably have a very slight amount of expansion/contraction.
The Hope spokes are designed in such a manner that they extremely rigid, both longitudinally and laterally. So, the long and the short of it is heat builds up in the caliper, but is dissipated both through air and efficient heat transfer to aluminium. Since the spokes are so rigid, they prevent rotor warping more efficiently than a stamped Avid disc.

Chichi, it might be worth it to try the standard Hope disc. Might give you the amount of braking security you are looking for and not cause you the grief. I know Bob (AriZona Tandems)is playing around with them too. Will be interesting to hear his evaluation. once he has tested it.

104781

104782

The brake retainer clip needs to be made 1.5mm wider in order for the project to work. I think having something custom made would be difficult due to the shape. I am going to see if I can cut 2 clips in half and then have them spot welded to a flat piece of metal across the top. I think the reinforcing piece could be put under the clip and part of the brake body filed away to accommodate it. Any ideas on how to cut this thin piece of stainless steel? I was thinking of using a dremel put am concerned about making a straight cut.

chichi, I somehow lost the last post. Long explanation of the concept of floating disc. Long and short of it...try a Hope floating disc. It will probably meet your braking needs and save you a lot of grief. However, if you are like me, there is no challenge to great not to take on. So, make the vented disc work
Cheers

Forget the last post. My lengthy one did not come up on the screen. Must be a bad gear.

104781

104782

The brake retainer clip needs to be made 1.5mm wider in order for the project to work. I think having something custom made would be difficult due to the shape. I am going to see if I can cut 2 clips in half and then have them spot welded to a flat piece of metal across the top. I think the reinforcing piece could be put under the clip and part of the brake body filed away to accommodate it. Any ideas on how to cut this thin piece of stainless steel? I was thinking of using a dremel put am concerned about making a straight cut.


The profile is formed first, then cut the part out.

I have not had the pads out of our caliper yet, but is the clip the only retaining device?

Why is the width important, I always believed the clip you mention whether on automotive, motorcycle or I suppose in this case bicycle, was merely to hold the brake pad from rattling and falling out when the disk is removed.

The clip could also be a wear point for the brake pad to caliper contact point.

Have you attempted to assemble it without the clip and see the results?

PK

I think the clip has 2 purposes
1. Hold the pads in the brake when the rotor is removed
2. As a guide for the pads

You could have that clip made and leave the center intact, don't need the hole in the middle for anything. I like the idea of taking 2 and making one. Is that stainless? Haven't even looked at mine. If you can find a good tig person have him butt the ends together and give it a go. Those parts are cheap. Cutting these pieces, I think a Dremel would be more accurate than most. Just be square, and get the out to out measurement right. Have a few done and sell one to me. The big advantage I see in this rotor is good brake feel for a longer period of time. Mabey no more power but good feel, giving confidance knowing you can still stop. A bigger caliper would be nice, Avid.

chichi,
i hope you haven't given up on this project.
we haven't seen any update for a while.

Have not given up, just a little tight on time of late. Have a couple of good leads on having the clips cut and welded or posssibly even remade in the size needed. BTW clip is stainless. I also think that on the stationary side of the caliper I will install a metal pad and on the moving side an organic pad. Thinking is the metal pad will not wear quickly which will minimize the amount of "flex" required by the rotor, any thoughts?

From the looks of that rotor I don't think flex will come into play, mabey on the caliper side of it but unlikely. Offers still good about the clips being made, I would like 1 and I will pay for yours.

Finally got the Hope floating rotor project on the road. I am using what I hope will only be a prototype for the retainer clip at this time. Assembly and brake install was pretty easy once I figured out a way to expand the spring clip. One of the washers had to be files to a smaller diameter so that it would not interfere with the brakes shoes other wise no issues.

We rode 120 miles this weekend with over 5000 feet of descent. The brakes performed better than I could have hoped. I intentionaly used the rear brake more than I would have normally and only occasionaly used the front brake. I had no problems at all. No disc warp and resulting rub. No brake fade. No soft feel at the brake lever. After 120 miles of riding no need to use barrell adjuster to take slack out of brake cable or adjust pads.

I had been using organic pads with the stock rotor to improve braking and reduce squeal, we installed the Avid metal pads with the Hope flaoting disc, we had some squeal during the first test ride out of the shop it went away after the first 10 brake applications and never returned.

Bottom line I am thrilled with the Hope floating disc. Now that I know the system works and adds value to the braking system I will continue to investiagte better ways to make the spring clip wider.

Not slamming your efforts, I don't recall, did you ever try the Avid disc with Avid metal pads prior to the vented setup. If so how did those compare to the vented setup.

PK

Not slamming your efforts, I don't recall, did you ever try the Avid disc with Avid metal pads prior to the vented setup. If so how did those compare to the vented setup.

PK

Yes i did originally have the Avid metal pads with the Avid rotor. The Brakes squeeled, had a mushy lever, overheated resulting in a warped noisy brake and generally did not work to well. I switched to the organic pads the only problem they solved was squeeling. The stock Avid setup would work if I spent time at least once a week tuning them. The current set up with the Hope vented disc is superior to anything I had done to the stock Avid setup.

I do not understand why the metal brakes on the hope rotor do not squeel but so far they have not made any noise.

We are a 325 lb team riding in the hills around San Jose, In 3000 miles i have gone through 5 sets of brake pads which seems excessive to me. I am hoping that metal pads will have a longer life than organic pads. At this time I do not have any reason other than curiosity to try the organic pads.

I,ve seen that double banger on the IRD website. Nice caliper. May alone be an upgrade with more clamping power, mabey stop faster with less heat due to shorter stopping distance.

The new SRAM XX disc looks like it's a vented, floating disc. I would think that it is compatible with the older calipers. Does anyone know if it comes in a 203 size?

The new SRAM XX disc looks like it's a vented, floating disc. I would think that it is compatible with the older calipers. Does anyone know if it comes in a 203 size?

Great... add to the list of SRAM XX stuff I want :innocent:

I want that beautiful 10 speed 11-32 cassette... but it's too expensive for now.

http://www.cambriabike.com/Images/product/sram_xx_cassette.jpg

The new SRAM XX disc looks like it's a vented, floating disc. I would think that it is compatible with the older calipers. Does anyone know if it comes in a 203 size?

Apparently it does... check out the specs/pic of this bike:
http://www.specialized.com/gb/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=10SJFSR&eid=4201

BUT.. SRAM's site has no listing for 203mm...

Also... They are not vented. You can see they are solid by looking at the 360 deg view.

I want that beautiful 10 speed 11-32 cassette... but it's too expensive for now.

http://www.cambriabike.com/Images/product/sram_xx_cassette.jpg[/QUOTE]


It is indeed a beutiful thing, but I wonder with all the material cut away if it would stand up to tandem use.

I think they also have an 11-36 or 38 for those that don't mind large gaps between cogs. It would probably be hard to stay upright with a triple and that cassette.

It is indeed a beutiful thing, but I wonder with all the material cut away if it would stand up to tandem use.

Well it is steel and one piece (well 8 of the gears) which makes it pretty strong I would think.

Well it is steel and one piece (well 8 of the gears) which makes it pretty strong I would think.

Looks like the one that would reqire the most strength the 32 would be the weakest?

While playing around / reading up on making our next Tandem MTB a Rohloff setup, I came across some of Nates old posts on putting big brakes on his bike.

While not vented it is a floating design, and 220mm. With a 220mm you might check with the stoker before braking hard as they may become the captain.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=365171

http://get.perigeum.com/s.nl/sc.8/category.2342/.f

Just another something FWIW.

PK

While playing around / reading up on making our next Tandem MTB a Rohloff setup, I came across some of Nates old posts on putting big brakes on his bike.

While not vented it is a floating design, and 220mm. With a 220mm you might check with the stoker before braking hard as they may become the captain.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=365171

http://get.perigeum.com/s.nl/sc.8/category.2342/.f

Just another something FWIW.

PK

We've been running a BB7 road, 220mm Formula rotor with alloy carrier, and EBC Gold pads on our Santana for 3500 miles.

Extremely pleased on Ride the Rockies (Independence and Monarch passes) where we faced some hard, extended braking situations due to bike and auto traffic - no heat or fade problems!

I did get some melting of the plastic bits on the Avid BB7 coming down Nacimiento Road this weekend. The Hope rotor did not warp and I did not notice any brake fade.

They turn black and then melt. I have not had this problem, but have seen this happen to others. We do decend quite rapidly using brakes as little as possible, but getting wiser as we get older puts more strain on our brakes. Keep fine tuning your set-up, chichi