Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Twisted spoke wheels

Like the rear wheel in this pic http://www.chubhub.com/photo.php?loc=photos/photo_5.jpg

Where can you get them built? I have to admit I just love the look.

You might want to ask Upgrade or Yojimbos on this one (they are both chicago) shops, and very good too!

Another of my babies... Hopefully, I'll be giving her to a friend of mine who wants to try fixed gear on the cheap.
http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/b/torrin.htm

who built the wheels T?

Unknown, but I love them to death! The local wheelbuilding celebrity at 'Gravy Wheels' won't build them because of supposed strength issues, but I've got many thousands of miles of popping curbs and getting hit by cars on them with nary a problem. Hell, they're still true.

and getting hit by cars on them with nary a problem
at least the wheels, right? When are you going to stop breaking yourself?

Unknown, but I love them to death! The local wheelbuilding celebrity at 'Gravy Wheels' won't build them because of supposed strength issues, but I've got many thousands of miles of popping curbs and getting hit by cars on them with nary a problem. Hell, they're still true.

In The Art of Wheelbuilding, Schraner first warns about how weak twisted spokes are and then writes something along the lines of "it's better for kids to roll spokes than to roll joints."

I had a big :rolleyes: over that.

In The Art of Wheelbuilding, Schraner first warns about how weak twisted spokes are and then writes something along the lines of "it's better for kids to roll spokes than to roll joints."


I would think it's the other way around, being much more productive to roll joints than mess with these goofy (though eye catching) spoke patterns.

It's a good idea for a useless lowrider show bike. A silly idea for a bike that is actually ridden. Especially one that's ridden hard, as I suspect many SS/fixies are.

*gack* That bike would be an awful ride. The Chub guys went to enormous lengths to prove that 'larger flanges are better', yet still end up with a hub heavier than a regular hub WITH a cassette freewheel mechanism, and provide no other benefits other than decreasing and dissipating the forces the hub sees under load.

Still, not a bad option if you want to plop 190 bucks down for a simple rear hub I guess.

Not sure what the benefit of twisted spokes are. Never heard any arguements for them that were even vaguely convincing.

what's wrong with that bike? i think it looks like it'd ride pretty damn nicely.

Change the back wheel and it would. Chubhubs and twisted spokes are pointless gimmicks; gimme a Phil high flange laced three cross (keep the Shamals though :) ).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7298&item=7117869668&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7298&item=7117869668&rd=1

please to be buying that frame for me please.

twisted spoke wheels are a bad choice in my opinion unless you are riding trials. they have no benefit for a road or track bike. the twisting adds a HUGE damping factor which is only beneficial in large wheel impacts, as seen in trials. for a road/track not a good idea bc you get zero road feedback

my trials bike has a 4x wheel in the rear.

mine does too!

please to be buying that frame for me please.

Allston MASS is a great place to drink and ride bikes and be loud. I never saw that Merlin there though.

Like the rear wheel in this pic http://www.chubhub.com/photo.php?loc=photos/photo_5.jpg

Where can you get them built? I have to admit I just love the look.

Did anybody save the pic? It looks like the link to the pic no longer work. Thanks.

Does anyone have any info on building twisty wheels? Specifically - calculating spoke lengths.

I can't find anything online - and I'd like to make a front like yours lucklust.

I'd like to do it myself - but I don't want to go through multiple sets of spokes to get it right.

Makes me wish I had a phil wood spoke cutter.

I read something somewhere by someone who made twisted spoke wheels that they just added something like 3mm to each spoke as calculated for x3 or something. I'm no expert, but seems like you would need more.

I may be wrong, but it looks like Lucklust's wheels there are 2x, twisting a full turn at the upper cross. Maybe you could size your spokes (with a calculator) for 3x then do 2x with a twist?

Spoke length for rims and hubs + 1mm = twisted spoke length.

Spoke length for rims and hubs + 1mm = twisted spoke length.

1mm doesnt sound like enough to me, but then again ive never done it.

although i think that twisted spokes have their place in cycling as i stated earlier in this thread, i will agree that they looking damn cool while spinning. no disrespect BOOYYYEEEEEE

twisted spoke wheels are a bad choice in my opinion unless you are riding trials. they have no benefit for a road or track bike. the twisting adds a HUGE damping factor which is only beneficial in large wheel impacts, as seen in trials.

Really? What exactly is this damping factor? And can you point to some evidence that twisted spoke wheels do indeed have it.

only persons I know running twisted spoke wheels here are downhillers and freeride guys that build there own wheels

Like the rear wheel in this pic http://www.chubhub.com/photo.php?loc=photos/photo_5.jpg

Where can you get them built? I have to admit I just love the look.


I believe Reload has them on their site. If not them, they may know people.

I can't get into twisted spokes. They remind me of useless wirehangers.

it would appear Chub Hub is no more? RELoad dumped them from the looks of the new websote, and www.chubhub.com is gone. No new URL either.

I had a dream that I had a wheel with yellow rims and yellow twisted spokes. It was sweet. In that dream vomitron tried to adjust them and taco'ed my wheel. When I woke up, I beat him for it.

I still say they look sweet, though I lust over them no more.

']it would appear Chub Hub is no more? RELoad dumped them from the looks of the new websote, and www.chubhub.com is gone. No new URL either.

Zed's dead.

Chub's were trash and a little searching here will reveal the multiple bad experiences that proved it. Too bad, so sad.

Really? What exactly is this damping factor? And can you point to some evidence that twisted spoke wheels do indeed have it.

i dont understand if you are asking what a damping factor is, or what THE damping factor is for a twisted wheel, as in a numerical value. i cant give you a number, but ill tell you what a damping factor is in case you dont know....

a damping ratio is a unitless measure of a damped oscillation. when a wheel absorbs an impact/impulse, it ocsillates. a damped oscillation is a oscillation in which the amplitude decreases over time. when a system with a high damping ratio receives an impulse the amplitude decreases over a longer amount of time than a system with a low damping ratio.

citing gerd schraner from his book "the art of wheelbuilding" --

the twisting of spokes, instead of classic crossing work is a waste of time for road use. tests have shown that it results in a very unstable wheel. the lateral stability is about the same as a normally spoked wheel, but radially the wheel reacts so sluggishly that encounters with momentary radial overloads the highly praised damping effect is delayed. ... twisted spoking patterns are an additional mechanical disadvantage resulting from the extreme angle of the spoke directly at the nipple. (schraner, p. 60)

Citing Homer Simpson:

Tramampoline!?

i'm going to build at least one wheel out of some junk parts at my shop that has braided spokes.

then i'm going to put it on display as testament to my l33t wheelbuilding skillz.

a damping ratio is a unitless measure of a damped oscillation.

A ratio of unitless measure? How could something be measured if there are no units to measure?



when a wheel absorbs an impact/impulse, it ocsillates.

OK. How much does it oscillate? At what amplitude? At what frequency? For what duration? What mode do they oscillate... radially, laterally?



a damped oscillation is a oscillation in which the amplitude decreases over time.

OK. So how long will any bicycle wheel, when it impacts a stationary object, oscillate. With the load of a bicyclist on it? And a compliant rubber tire between the rim and the ground?



when a system with a high damping ratio receives an impulse the amplitude decreases over a longer amount of time than a system with a low damping ratio.

OK. In the case of a bicycle wheel, on a bicycle, with a rider, suspended by a pneumatic tire, how long will the twisted spoke wheel oscillate compared with, say a 3x laced wheel?




citing gerd schraner from his book "the art of wheelbuilding" --

the twisting of spokes, instead of classic crossing work is a waste of time for road use. tests have shown that it results in a very unstable wheel. the lateral stability is about the same as a normally spoked wheel, but radially the wheel reacts so sluggishly that encounters with momentary radial overloads the highly praised damping effect is delayed. ... twisted spoking patterns are an additional mechanical disadvantage resulting from the extreme angle of the spoke directly at the nipple. (schraner, p. 60)

The twisted spoke thing gets tossed around usenet every once in a while, with some adherents anecdotally claiming it makes for a stiffer wheel. And generally debunked by the likes of Jobst Brandt.

It seems for even the most oscillation prone wheel (and I'm not convinced that oscillation is at all a issue for any reasonably built wheel), the very weight of a rider and damping of a air filled rubber tire would make oscillation a non issue. With all due respect to Schraner, the "highly praised damping effect" sounds like pseudoscience.

A ratio of unitless measure? How could something be measured if there are no units to measure?


actually yes, in engineering there are lots of instances where dimensionless number appear. when you want to find your gear ratio, by dividing your chainring by your cog, that is a unitless value. the units cancel out. its pretty common


OK. How much does it oscillate? At what amplitude? At what frequency? For what duration? What mode do they oscillate... radially, laterally?


the ocsillate radially when absorbing impulses. asking for specifics like whats the amp, freq, etc it a bit rediculous. they can be determined if you have a laboratory take measurements, or you can simulate it on an assortment of programs.


OK. So how long will any bicycle wheel, when it impacts a stationary object, oscillate. With the load of a bicyclist on it? And a compliant rubber tire between the rim and the ground?


from my experience with mechanical/electrical control systems the settling time of damped oscillations will vary greatly from system to system. bridges for instance can have very high settling times with a high percent overshoot, while electrical and other mechanical systems will have a settling time in milli or micro seconds.


OK. In the case of a bicycle wheel, on a bicycle, with a rider, suspended by a pneumatic tire, how long will the twisted spoke wheel oscillate compared with, say a 3x laced wheel?


thats what this whole thread is about... dont you know? :)


The twisted spoke thing gets tossed around usenet every once in a while, with some adherents anecdotally claiming it makes for a stiffer wheel. And generally debunked by the likes of Jobst Brandt.

It seems for even the most oscillation prone wheel (and I'm not convinced that oscillation is at all a issue for any reasonably built wheel), the very weight of a rider and damping of a air filled rubber tire would make oscillation a non issue. With all due respect to Schraner, the "highly praised damping effect" sounds like pseudoscience.

whether oscillation IS an issue, its still there no matter what. but IMO theoretically the damping ratio is effected, but whether it relates physically, who knows. all i know is that twisted spokes look cool

Legalize it, pot heads areen't supposed to be that smart! I'll stick with 3X. I can't understand the why much less how to build twisted wheels. Twist joints, not spokes! I think they mostly show off builder's skill. Build 'em if you can, ride 'em if you want.

whether oscillation IS an issue, its still there no matter what. but IMO theoretically the damping ratio is effected, but whether it relates physically, who knows.

In other words, the stuff about damping factor is a red herring.

In other words, the stuff about damping factor is a red herring.

Unless it delivers less shock to the handlebars. That would be damping right? Ride one and find out. Let us know...

In other words, the stuff about damping factor is a red herring.

No I think he said, noone knows.... Which brings us back to the title of the thread. But maybe if he was dog-shooting edgy, then you would listen, especially after he kinda owned you like that.

In other words, the stuff about damping factor is a red herring.

certainly not. damping ratios certainly exists. pick up a book on control theory, then try and say that its a red herring. all i mean to say is that bc i neither have the means nor the money to experiment with twisted spoke wheels in a lab environment i cannot accurately say whether the change damping is negligible.

actually in ways it has been physically proven, just watch some trials MTBers hop off a 10ft drop. the wheel is more than happy to take the abuse again and again, bc the wheel is actually held at a standstill on impact bc of the increased settling time and the high percent overshoot.

i think i can write a paper out of this thread....

I thnk that MiamiJim or Rev. Chuck knows the technique for building twisted spoke
wheels.
Somewhere I recall seeing you need 3mm longer spokes than required for a 3x wheel.

Of course I could be wrong.

Marty

twisted messenger:

http://www.bikecult.com/works/archive/gttrackpit.html

I must say, you're completely wrong. Many free ride and downhill bicycles can be found with twisted spoke patterns; for the aesthetics and strength. Laced by an experienced wheel builder, a twisted lacing can and will last a long time from repetitive abuse. Check out Spoke Monkey, where they have expert knowledge on how this exactly will work.

What the hell... 4 years old? I've never seen such a necrobump.

I used to build up twisted spoked wheels for mtn bikes for cross country. Still riding a set that are 15 years old with no problems. I am building up a fixie now and am planning on doing a twisted spoke most likely. I will let you know how they ride at the end of the month when the build is complete. Maybe earlier if I can find someont to buy a bmx bike that I built up to ride with some of my old shop rats but never rode much.

Holy old thread batman!!





all be-it interesting...

wow this is an old thread. didnt realize it was a 4 y/o thread. :twitchy: