Policing Ourselves

trailhound

One of the main reasons I don't often participate in weekend club rides is because it seems as some sort of mob mentality takes over when a large group of cyclists get together. They start doing things like taking over an entire lane, riding 4 abreast, running lights, not paying attention to the traffic. The actions of these sometimes large groups of cyclists (upwards of 20 people) tend to stick in the minds of drivers, and it always seems that there is some sort of hostility visited on the group at some point in the ride.

I commute 30 miles a day, at least 3 days a week, and rarely have any trouble. I would like to think it is because I ride responsibly, always signaling my intentions, being predictable, and being courteous to other users on the road. When I do ride with a group (these days >10 people), they all have similar habits to mine, and we rarely have problems.

There are always going to be problems between drivers and cyclists. Unfortunately, the problems aren't going to get any better. Society in general seems to be less patient, and has less tolerance. For me, riding my bike allows me the opportunity to slow the pace of life, and enjoy the benefits of life in the slow lane. It's much better here! I just wish everyone would show a little more courtesy for their fellow humans.

Peace,

Karl, who got rained on this morning in Tucson

closetbiker

I've called more than a few cyclists out on the carpet for their behavior.

No one seems to take it well.

Maybe these people who do bad things are the type that will do them regaurdless of what others may think anyway.

Is it worth it to argue with them?

ChezJfrey

Cyclists, as a group, are just as representative of humanity's personality types as are motorists. So, by telling another cyclist (assuming they are unknown to you) what to do or what they did wrong will just as likely get a, "f*** off!" response as would telling a random motorist what they did wrong.

Judging by their actions, I would surmise that most people operate under the premise, "I know what I'm doing, I'm always right, and everybody else can stick it."

LittleBigMan

SamDaBikinMan

midwestmntnbkr

One of the main reasons I don't often participate in weekend club rides is because it seems as some sort of mob mentality takes over when a large group of cyclists get together. They start doing things like taking over an entire lane, riding 4 abreast, running lights, not paying attention to the traffic. The actions of these sometimes large groups of cyclists (upwards of 20 people) tend to stick in the minds of drivers, and it always seems that there is some sort of hostility visited on the group at some point in the ride.

There are always going to be problems between drivers and cyclists. Unfortunately, the problems aren't going to get any better. Society in general seems to be less patient, and has less tolerance. For me, riding my bike allows me the opportunity to slow the pace of life, and enjoy the benefits of life in the slow lane. It's much better here! I just wish everyone would show a little more courtesy for their fellow humans.

Peace,

Karl, who got rained on this morning in Tucson

I quit riding with a local club a couple of years ago for the same basic reasons that you stated.
I used to ride with them at least 3 times a week and sometimes more, but getting "pulled" over by the local police a few times and I decided that I did not want to be a part of that type of crowd.

Strangely enough these are typically the same ones who complain about the motorist that have anger toward cyclists. GEEE I wonder why they feel that way?

orguasch

when we do our club ride (total over a 100/150 riders,) we just occupy one lane of the road, and this is about four or five abreast and this stretches to about 200/300 meters, and the cyclist see to it that we only stay on one lane, on a green light at an intersection we would all cross the interescetion and if the middle group is caught by the red light the last group will cross the intersection even if it is red (if the group is travelling at 35/40 k it would be dangerous to stop at that speed, and since it a weekend ride the traffic is very light specially if the group is almost at the outskirts of the city.

Poppaspoke

Last weekend aproximately 25 riders blithely sailed through a 4-way stop, while several motorists waited patiently for an opening. Made me cringe. Far more education needs to be directed at cyclists concerning their responsibilities (as well as their rights). Behavior CAN be changed...look at the statistics regarding seat belt usage now, as opposed to previous decades. It takes time, peresistence, social pressure, and the occasional legal intervention. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of social pressure: cyclists are part of your peer group and can be influenced if they hear enough people criticize their negative behavior. Don't be afraid to speak out loudly to offending cyclists, even if they appear to blow you off!

John E

There are a few exceptions, but I generally subscribe to: "Same roads, same rights, same rules."

Chris L

I already do police myself, however, I really don't see the value in trying to police others. As far as I'm concerned, that's the job for the real police. If you see someone breaking the law, how about reporting them? I'd suggest they're more likely to listen to the cops than anyone else.

outashape

I don't have a problem when a group is riding closely together and they stop as a group and then proceed through a stop sign as a group. It is less confusing to motorists that way than 20 separate starts from bicyclists. I've never seen a group that all stops, and each person waits their turn. Usually, they will stop and 3-4 will cross, then cross traffic will go, then more cyclists cross. Stopping and starting as a group is how they do it with motorcycle clubs. In fact, the ride captain, will block traffic until all riders in the group are across a traffic light or stop sign. If the riders are all strung out, then they should stop individually.

bluejack

There are a few exceptions, but I generally subscribe to: "Same roads, same rights, same rules."

I don't subscribe to this. Here's where I differ:

Bicycles are lightweight, narrow vehicles with a fraction of the momentum
of autmobilies, and incredible versatility. Cyclists can be killed by any car
at any time, and so must be constantly alert for hazards. They may be
the same roads; the same rules and rights may, in theory, apply; but we
are not in control of comparable vehicles, not by a long shot.

I don't advocate discourteous behavior, and I don't condone (although,
when it is incredibly skillful, I occasionally admire) riding that endangers
others -- and this includes doing things that might frighten auto drivers. But
if I come to a red light and there's no side traffic, I'll breeze through it.
I will happily pass a long line of cars in order to shoot through a 4 way
stop -- running parallel to a car whose legal turn it is. I will also hop onto
sidewalks to avoid particularly dangerous roadside situations (but only
if the sidewalks are free of pedestrians). At a four-way red with an
all-directions walk sign for pedestrians, I'll blow right on through if the
pedestrian traffic is light enough to do so safely. There are many
other examples.

In short, we're not cars. Pretending we are can occasionally be dangerous,
but is often just dumb. The right thing to do is to ride intelligently
and courteously.

bluejack

JOHN KERRY as president, the best thing that could happen to terrorists worldwide. Lets help out those who want us dead and elect him.

May I recommend you keep your politics to yourself in these bike
forums, unless it has some bearing on cycling? There's no call for this kind
of ignorant, inflammatory BU**SH** here. I bicycle to get away from
that kind of talk.

Chris L

In short, we're not cars. Pretending we are can occasionally be dangerous,
but is often just dumb. The right thing to do is to ride intelligently
and courteously.

Actually, acting like traffic and claiming the lane saves my life on a daily basis.

Daily Commute

May I recommend you keep your politics to yourself in these bike
forums, unless it has some bearing on cycling? There's no call for this kind
of ignorant, inflammatory BU**SH** here. I bicycle to get away from
that kind of talk.

I agree. There are plenty of other places to discuss foreign policy. Let's stick to issues relating to bike policy and, of course, the critical Bush-MTB/Kerry-road-bike debate.

Juha

I see a lot of threads about careless and obnoxious drivers (I started one myself). But let's be honest. As a group, cyclists are at least as lawless as drivers. Maybe we should start yelling at our cycling brethren (and sistren?) when we see them break the law and/or do something stupid.

I will not make it a habit to lecture every law-breaking cyclist I see. I do not do that to car drivers either. That sort of surveillance and education is best left with the police, IMO. But if someone acts silly and / or breaks the law, and that results to me feeling uncomfortable or unsafe on the road, I will do my very best to discuss the issue with them. Regardless of their means of transportation or their willingness to communicate.

Two days ago I was riding behind a slower "cruising" type of cyclist on a notoriously narrow and dangerous downtown bike "path" (actually a sidewalk, one lane for bikes, one for peds). I was in no particular hurry and there was a lot of traffic, so I did not bother trying to overtake him. At one point a pedestrian had wondered over to the bike lane, and the guy in front of me had no bell and apparently no voice either. He just started slowing down. I used my bell and the ped got off the lane (after the usual owlish head turns and 2-3 sidesteps to all directions). The guy in front of me looked back as well, and quickly pulled over to let me through. He caught me at the next stoplight, so I said I did not want to scare him or anything, and that the bell signal was for the ped. He said yes, he understood, but when he saw me right behind him in my riding gear he thought I was yet another %¤&# bike messenger blasting my way through traffic.

For a moment there I felt what it is like to be a minority (outlaw bike messengers) within a minority (cyclists), with all the appropriate stereotypes firmly attached.

--J

PaulH

Whenever someone blows a red light or stop sign, I always call out "stop sign!" or "red light!" when I pass them. I doubt it has the slightest effect on them -- they look back at me with a puzzled expression. In thes country, we are very lax in enforcing traffic laws -- unless, of course, a small town decides to put up a speed trap to raise renenue. Cyclists who run red lights, ride on the wrong side, ride at night without lights are ignored or face minor penalties. Similarly, drivers of cars are allowed to get away with a lot.

A few years ago, the DC government had a safety campaign. "I stop for red lights" bumper stickers were passed out. No joke...

Paul

natelutkjohn

I pride my self on being a very traffic abiding biker, never on the sidewalk, I wait in the traffic cue at lights (as long as it's not like 20 cars or so) and I do left turns in the left turn lane. It took me a while to get to this point but now it's second nature and I feel so much safer. What I do hate above all else though is when some F'ing moron is riding on the wrong side of the road on the street in busy traffic and here I am coming right at him with no where to go! I mean if you're going to be on the wrong side of the road, why not take it one step farther and get out of the way and ride on the sidewalk?!?!? There's nothing more dangerous to me then two bikers coming head on in traffic with no where to go. The real kicker is that the offending biker never seems to realize that they are wrong and they never even make the attempt to get out of the way. ARGHHHGHGHGHG! Well, I had to vent, I'm on my way out for a ride around the city, let's see what happens today. :)

closetbiker

What I do hate above all else though is when some F'ing moron is riding on the wrong side of the road on the street in busy traffic and here I am coming right at him with no where to go!

and this is what has happened to me many times resulting in many near misses and one head on collision with the other biker.

There are a few exceptions, but I generally subscribe to: "Same roads, same rights, same rules."

I don't subscribe to this. Cyclists can be killed by any car at any time, and so must be constantly alert for hazards. They may be the same roads; the same rules and rights may, in theory, apply; but we are not in control of comparable vehicles

I'm with John E here, and I'll have to ask bluejack how it is he isn't, keeping in mind the few exceptions (many "rules" have exceptions that apply in certain situations) in which same rules and rights may not apply.

The reasoning explained earlier can easily be applied to any vehicle. Trucks are much bigger than cars and could harm them, some cars are much more powerful than others and out run others on the road. Just because your faster or stronger, does that give you the right to take advantage of slower or weaker road users?

It seems to me, we use the road with many types of transport and to use the road effectivly, we agree on a set of rules that we all follow to use the road effectively. We only seem to get into trouble when someone dosen't follow those rules. - for instance - when some cyclists break the rules - and should we do a better job of policing ourselves to be more respected on the road?

Seanholio

It seems to me, we use the road with many types of transport and to use the road effectivly, we agree on a set of rules that we all follow to use the road effectively. We only seem to get into trouble when someone dosen't follow those rules. - for instance - when some cyclists break the rules - and should we do a better job of policing ourselves to be more respected on the road?

I see little to be gained in trying to police other cyclists in my area. Generally, I see several difference archetypes, and for the most part, none would be too keen on receiving what they perceive as unwanted and incorrect advice from a stranger.

For instance, take the guy in the heavy flannel shirt, no helmet, lunch in a mini-igloo cooler held by one hand on the handlebars. The bike is a beater, and he's rathe rough-and-tumble himself. If he runs a stop sign, redlight, or rides on the wrong side of the road, I'm not going to bother him, unless he endangers my life.

Another example: Hammerhead roadie. He's wearing a tour jersey, expensive carnari tights, and his bike weighs less than my seat. There's no way to catch him and share knowledge, and oftentimes, he won't listen.

Don't get me wrong: There are many affable riders out there, and I occasionally see them on my commute. Disparity in speed prevents much conversation, but you can see it in their posture and facial expressions.

I have to agree with those who have said, "Let the cops handle it."

Daily Commute

Whenever someone blows a red light or stop sign, I always call out "stop sign!" or "red light!" when I pass them.

I think this is the right approach. A little peer pressure, especially in areas where the same cyclists pass each other every day, can have an effect. But, despite the title of this thread, we can't be cops.

bluejack

I'm with John E here, and I'll have to ask bluejack how it is he isn't, keeping in mind the few exceptions (many "rules" have exceptions that apply in certain situations) in which same rules and rights may not apply.

The reasoning explained earlier can easily be applied to any vehicle. Trucks are much bigger than cars and could harm them, some cars are much more powerful than others and out run others on the road. Just because your faster or stronger, does that give you the right to take advantage of slower or weaker road users?

The point about trucks is well noted. But observe that different rules
do apply to trucks. Trucks often have lower speed limits than
cars. Certain roads and lanes are off limits to trucks. This is in force
to protect cars, and since trucks are usually driven by professional
drivers, these regulations are generally observed -- at least in populous
areas.

Although there are rules protecting cyclists, these are not generally
observed by automobile drivers. Or perhaps I should say universally:
although the majority of drivers are courteous, a sufficient minority
endanger my life on a daily basis.

However, my point is that applying laws written for cars to bicycles is
often simply non-sensical. I gave an example of some rules I do not
feel obliged to observe. Here are a few more, and I'll bet the most
law abiding cyclists also violate these:

Hand signals. Do you signal every turn accurately? Do you
signal that you are braking (or do you use your left hand to
actually brake)? Even when there are no cars on the road?
Do you really come to a complete stop at every stop sign?
Do you stop when a pedestrian is within one lane of lanes
going in your direction? Or do you simply give the pedestrian
ample space?

Again, I am not defending rude, dangerous, or selfish riding. I am simply
claiming that rigorous adherence to the automobile laws is not necessary
to be a safe, courteous cyclist. But these are not a few weird exceptions,
these are "illegal" maneuvers that I undertake dozens of times every day.
In an ideal world, there would be a separate traffic code for cyclists.
Just as cars and trucks (and motorcycles too) have slightly different
regulations based on mass, so bikes should have different, reasonable
regulations that take their weight, versatility, and vulnerability into
consideration.

PS. I just discovered that it is legal to ride on sidewalks in Washington
state. So my occasional uses of the sidewalk to avoid particularly
dangerous roads is legitimate.

John E

Hand signals. Do you signal every turn accurately? Do you
signal that you are braking (or do you use your left hand to
actually brake)? Even when there are no cars on the road?
Do you really come to a complete stop at every stop sign?
Do you stop when a pedestrian is within one lane of lanes
going in your direction? Or do you simply give the pedestrian
ample space?

OK, our views are not that far apart.

It is not practical to signal a stop while braking, particularly if you drive on the right side of the road and your front/dominant brake is on the left. When cycling in a group, I do use a slow/stop hand signal before applying the brakes; for motorists, cessation of pedaling gives the same message. (In fact, I avoid coasting in traffic and prefer to use low gears and spin, to give the visual cue that I am moving fast.)

I signal for turns BEFORE I make them, for the same reason I signal slow/stop before applying the brakes. I discourteously do not signal a right turn at a particular local intersection for which my approach is a 15 percent downhill grade, for which I want both hands on the bars and brakes.

I sometimes wait for a red light in the crosswalk, so that I can leave space for right-turning motorists to get past me on my right, and to position myself to discourage right-hooking.

closetbiker

The point about trucks is well noted. But observe that different rules do apply to trucks.

Maybe we need to get a little more specific. I was talking about trucks that drive on the road like pick ups, flat beds and even city busses. They all follow the same rules. Big 18 wheelers would be part of exceptions as there are certain areas in towns that a little common sense would tell you that an alternative route for a bicycle is a good idea and in certain areas there are restrictions for both truck and bicycles. In most areas many different types of transport use the same space.

Although there are rules protecting cyclists, these are not generally observed by automobile drivers.

So, there is a way to deal with that. Get on the police to get motorists to follow laws. Are we going to allow or expect law breakers to continue to break the law?

my point is that applying laws written for cars to bicycles is often simply non-sensical.

With a very few exceptions, the laws written here say a bicycle has the same rights and rules as any other road user and the safest way to ride is to follow those in co-operation with busses and trucks.

Separate traffic codes for cyclists are unsafe and impracticle.

LittleBigMan

An additional advantage of following the road rules is that motorists understand me and see me as predictable, something which ultimately protects me. It's when they aren't sure what I am going to do that makes things dicey.

Chris L

Hand signals. Do you signal every turn accurately? Do you
signal that you are braking (or do you use your left hand to
actually brake)? Even when there are no cars on the road?
Do you really come to a complete stop at every stop sign?
Do you stop when a pedestrian is within one lane of lanes
going in your direction? Or do you simply give the pedestrian
ample space?

The question is, does anybody actually do this? I see car drivers every day that fail to signal their turns, even in the tightest of traffic (one of the reasons I like riding in gridlock, it means they can't pull of that sudden move). If they don't do this in heavy traffic, I doubt they'll do it when there's nobody around.

I see driver running red lights and stop signs all the time. At least by stopping at the red lights and slowing at the stop signs to check, I'm probably one up on the majority of road users around here. As far as pedestrians in lanes goes, that rarely happens, but when it does I tend to give them ample space, assuming I haven't positioned myself in the appropriate place to do so already.

All this argument really does is repeat the truism that the majority of the population are totally incapable of deciding right vs wrong or safe vs unsafe for themselves, and thus we simply need a stronger police force to do it for them.

bluejack

I discourteously do not signal a right turn at a particular local intersection for which my approach is a 15 percent downhill grade, for which I want both hands on the bars and brakes.

The right turn is especially apropos: the only occasion when the absence of
a right turn signal is particularly discourteous is when you are turning into a
right road, and an automobile is waiting on your assumed straightaway before
pulling into the road. A right turn signal in this case will allow the car to go
while you turn. In almost every other circumstance, by which I particularly
imagine cars alongside or behind you, the automobile is not at all inconvencienced
by your unexpected turn out of traffic, while you are protected!

Left turns almost always require a signal. Lane changes, either left or right
almost always require a signal. Other than these two cases, I see only particular
cases of driver/rider communication to indicate necessary signallling. And,
when that driver/rider communication works, it's particularly satisfying. I can
almost remember all the faces of drivers I have communicated left turn signals
to so they could cut in front of me to our mutual benefit: communication is
a good thing!

cyclezealot

closetbiker

Do all of us think cyclists are that irresponsible.?..IF so, yes, I like Chris' idea. Turn in the law breakers.

I think it is a person who is either rsponsible or not and if that person walks, rides, or drives it's his behaviour, not his mode of transport, that will be irresponsible.

I can't find anything to back this up right now, but I seem to remember this question being answered by our local police (and I know this subject comes up regularly) where they said blame for accidents between cars and bikes is usually split pretty evenly.

There sure are irresponsible cyclists (usual stuff, wrong side of the road, no light at night, ignoring traffic signs) and no question motorists that refuse to give right of way to cyclists, but I think police turn a blind eye to cyclists because they believe natural selection will take it's course and chances are, the cyclist isn't going to hurt anyone but themselves but cars can cause much more damage and hurt innocent people, so (outside of a few taget programs) the emphasis is on ticketing motorists.

cyclezealot

I know many of us are racers at heart..Motorists are a very hurried group..Possibly, since we choose alternative transportation, we are different from the general public?
I know we are people and there are lots of jerky cyclists.
But sorry,from my observations-I just do not see that many cyclists who are irresponsible.. Just from my honest observation and opinion from what I see...At least compared to the motoring public... For starters,you would think we more safety conscious since our vehicle weighs under 25lbs. compared to a 3,000 plus auto..
I do say..The times I have seen large clubs of cyclists in packs..Yeah, I sort of agree. They take up too much of the road.
I remember on particular cycling club seemed pretty selfish about the hills of nearby Bonsall...
Local residents called the Sheriff. The sheriff posted a deputy on a motor bike in that area..That cooled down their heels.
I see smaller groups of cyclists, I don't see so much of that kind of behaviour.
Others, you feel we are as careless as the general observation.

Daily Commute

ANother possible poll, here......I see the ocassional irresponsible cyclist....Maybe I do not ride with large clubs.Maybe naive..
But just from what I see, playing the percentages- My impression. Cyclists as a group are more responsible than most of the population. Rarely, riding with large groups, maybe I live a charmed life...
I ride with touring types or see lots of commuters.
I honestly, do not see rampant law breaking by cyclists.. Not to say, on a couple ocassions I have not gone through a red light myself..
Do all of us think cyclists are that irresponsible.? I had hoped many a cyclist is motivated by ecologic, health oriented concerns. The types of activities that would cause you to act different from the rest of the herd.
IF so, yes, I like Chris' idea. Turn in the law breakers.

The people on this forum tend to be more serious cyclists, who tend to be the most responsible. But kids, occaisional recreational riders, DUI'ers, college students, and maniac bike messengers throw off the curve.

And I'm not saying to follow every blasted rule every second. The rolling stop when no one's around is an example. But if you runna red light causing the green-light traffic to slow down or stop (or something similar), you should at least get yelled at.

Seanholio

ANother possible poll, here......I see the ocassional irresponsible cyclist....Maybe I do not ride with large clubs.Maybe naive..
But just from what I see, playing the percentages- My impression. Cyclists as a group are more responsible than most of the population. Rarely, riding with large groups, maybe I live a charmed life...
I ride with touring types or see lots of commuters.
I honestly, do not see rampant law breaking by cyclists.. Not to say, on a couple ocassions I have not gone through a red light myself..
Do all of us think cyclists are that irresponsible.? I had hoped many a cyclist is motivated by ecologic, health oriented concerns. The types of activities that would cause you to act different from the rest of the herd.
IF so, yes, I like Chris' idea. Turn in the law breakers.

CZ,

I see many irresponsible cyclists. Everything from no-helmet to riding against traffic and running red lights. I see this when I'm riding and from the cage. I don't encounter too many club rides, but the ones I do encounter in the South Bay Area are almost universally responsible and courteous.

I don't know that I would call it rampant law breaking. For some reason, that brings to mind the LA or Oakland Riots, and that's a far cry from running a stop sign.

I'm not terribly motivated by ecology or politics for my riding; I ride because I enjoy it, it improves my health and fitness, and it is much cheaper than driving, especially when all of the costs are factored in.

Turning in lawbreakers is difficult. As the addage goes, "There's never a cop around when you need one."

yak

... But if you runna red light causing the green-light traffic to slow down or stop (or something similar), you should at least get yelled at...

No, you should get an ass full of fender.

I use my own brand of common sense. Cruise through 4way stops if no vehicles present, or if oncoming vehicle not yet stopped and not signalling a left turn. Never if vehicles are present on left or right. Never if leading a group. No problem having a group stream through a 4way after stopping. Most motorists would wave you through anyway.

Stop at all lights unless absolutely no traffic is visible, even then slow down to cross. Never when leading a group. No problem having the tail end of a group stream through a yellow light as long as the group is contiguous - again common sense rules.

Take the lane if close to (or above) speed limit. It's safer than leaving yourself just a foot to react to a close brush.

Not everyone will agree with my brand of common sense. That's fine.