Advocacy & Safety - The motorists don't care about your lane position

riding this last week or so, I've been dissappointed by several motorists swinging way wide around my center of the lane position to short turn a right in front of me. I had one guy position himself for a right turn in the LEFT turn lane approaching an intersection because I was full in the straight/right turn lane. We both approached the intersection simulataneously with his truck nosing ahead of me with its' right turn blinker on. pathetic.

a couple right hooked me yesterday, they got a few feet ahead crossing the double yellow as i was centered in the lane, to cut me off to make a right turn in front of me. i had to slow and swing way wide in a 'bumper lateral' to avoid them as they spooled up to make the turn right in front of me. no patience at all, they could have slowed down and waited less than five seconds...

and a different, crossing manuver.....a motorist in a hurry to enter a one-way arterial making a left was going to cut my girlfriend and I off as we proceeded straight across the intersection. he was too impatient to wait his turn and was just rolling the stopsign directly behind a delivery van despite him needing to stop and yield to us- traffic proceeding straight thru the intersection. pathetic again.

I don't know how some of y'all brazenly expect to evaporate intersection conflicts with lane position as some motorists will ignore destination positioning, ignore rules of the road and try to get a transitory road advantage or pass you regardless.

and if a bicyclist positions themselves so far to the left of a lane motorists pass on the right, opening themself up to left hooks from behind as motorists want to speed up to pass on the right to make a left turn.

motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.

Here in Houston, motorists are generally pretty considerate. But not always. When riding in groups, cars are very seldom any problem When solo, problems sometimes pop up. My solution is as follows:
1_ Front light from Planet Bike. Has flashing mode, sells for about $40, think it is their "1 watt" model.
2_Taillight from Dinotte in New Hampshire; about $120. A REALLY bright taillight.
With that the table is set for item #3.
3_ A really loud vocal annunciation to any driver who fails to realize that I am serious when it comes to my health and well-being.

I run daytime viz flashers- 3 watt front on flash - and wear high viz and position myself quite assertively.

I have come to expect these traffic transgressions. I find the 'lane position as cure all' pablum of the vehikular cyklists crowd leaves something to be desired in actual execution.

I find it very entertaining to move to the center of the lane when approaching a stop, and then watching the drivers experience the primal urge to pass and end up in the wrong lane at the stop. The idiocy of these people never ceases to amaze me.

Yeah, motorists still sometimes pull stupid stunts that cyclists need to be prepared to avoid, but you have to admit that assertive lane position reduces the frequency of these incidents. Lane position as a "cure all"? I don't think anyone who rides regularly would say that. Maybe a cure most?

The silliest thing about the whole impatient motorist thing, is the fact that they have a pedal connected to hundreds of horse power. With a light push of it, they could easily speed back up to the exact position they would have been in, had they not been momentarily held up by a cyclist. Ugh.

At least I get less flat tires out there.

I run daytime viz flashers- 3 watt front on flash - and wear high viz and position myself quite assertively.

I have come to expect these traffic transgressions. I find the 'lane position as cure all' pablum of the vehikular cyklists crowd leaves something to be desired in actual execution.

Your personal and unbiased observations have totally destroyed the vehikular cyklist movement. Very well done. Now kindly address Muslim extremism. Can't last more than a couple of weeks once you are on the job. :thumb:

wow, an unabashed critic & new to the forums. welcome.


as to dismissing vehikular cyklings tenets- i'd put the blame squarely on the motorists who don't give a rats' behind about bicyclists using destination positioning.

I find the pablum of lane positioning as a cure to intersection conflicts wildly overemphasized.....the motorists don't care about your lane position, and some will hook you regardless of lane position.

I watch my rear view mirror. You can usually predict which ones need extra instructions.

When vehicles following me don't move over as they approach from a distance - I do!

I find that taking the lane then forces them to move over to the next lane while passing.

Doing otherwise usually results in a buzz.....

As to dismissing vehikular cyklings tenets- I'd put the blame squarely on the motorists who don't give a rats' behind about bicyclists using destination positioning.

I find the pablum of lane positioning as a cure to intersection conflicts wildly overemphasized.....the motorists don't care about your lane position, and some will hook you regardless of lane position.

Good point, Bek. Will you be returning to gutter-hugging now? Do explain your future lane-positioning plans and reasons for doing so in light of this thread.

motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.

:thumb:

Here in Houston, motorists are generally pretty considerate. But not always. When riding in groups, cars are very seldom any problem When solo, problems sometimes pop up. My solution is as follows:
(snip) (Summery of snipped content: Use flashing lights and yell)

The problem is not a failure to be seen, the problem is reckless motorists.

Lane position as a "cure all"? I don't think anyone who rides regularly would say that. Maybe a cure most?

Of course not. This is just another strawman/trolling post.

You know what though, people don't just treat bikes this way. I can't tell you how many times I've been passed only to have the person pull back in front of me then turn right causing me to have to hit the brakes. I remember one pretty clear a couple I almost hit because of their tinted tail lights so I couldn't even tell they hit the brakes, or the volvo wagon that made a right turn from the left lane right in front of me. They usually do this because I am going close to the speed limit or I stopped at the red light/stop sign. This is while driving.

I get idiots who haul ass to pass me within, say 500ft, of a stop about once a month, and I've even seen them do it to Amish buggies. I probably get one who barely avoids oncoming traffic (or me) weekly. All lane position does is give you some breathing room to maneuver and gives the timid (aka safe) drivers something to think about before passing...it ain't a cure for stoopid. ;)

I get idiots who haul ass to pass me within, say 500ft, of a stop about once a month, and I've even seen them do it to Amish buggies. I probably get one who barely avoids oncoming traffic (or me) weekly. All lane position does is give you some breathing room to maneuver and gives the timid (aka safe) drivers something to think about before passing...it ain't a cure for stoopid. ;)

You can say that again. Stupid people find all sorts of idiotic things to do regardless of the precautions taken ... the trick is being out of the line of fire.... Sometimes I feel like Jane Goodall watching all the chimps as I move through traffic .... Come to think of it the chimps are probably smarter....

I get idiots who haul ass to pass me within, say 500ft, of a stop about once a month, and I've even seen them do it to Amish buggies. I probably get one who barely avoids oncoming traffic (or me) weekly. All lane position does is give you some breathing room to maneuver and gives the timid (aka safe) drivers something to think about before passing...it ain't a cure for stoopid. ;)

Bump:)

Lane positioning doesn't eliminate these types of conflicts, if only mitigates them. It also gives the cyclist more options as to an escape when the terminally stupid are encountered.

motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.

Yup.

...no patience at all, they could have slowed down and waited less than five seconds...

...some of y'all brazenly expect to evaporate intersection conflicts with lane position as some motorists will ignore destination positioning, ignore rules of the road and try to get a transitory road advantage or pass you regardless.

They MUST pass! Don't you know that?

I don't use lane position to "evaporate intersection conflict" - I use speed. Even a Ferrari can't make a 90 degree right turn at 20+ mph. Just can't be done. I too find that lane position alone prevents nothing from overtaking vehicles.

Tonight I had a motorist just miss me by a few inches, then only to 45 degree dive into a parking space 50 ft. in front of me while I was doing 18 mph. I also happen to be on the inside edge of a local bike lane, in enough away to avoid doors, but out just enough to avoid conflicts with most motorists.

...and if a bicyclist positions themselves so far to the left of a lane motorists pass on the right, opening themself up to left hooks from behind as motorists want to speed up to pass on the right to make a left turn.

At the risk of sounding paternalistic or worse.. dont get hit out there!

Perhaps the NWestern motorists are getting too wise to wise cyclists. Why not play dumb, by, (with full awarness of what's rreally behind you), move from slightly right of the center of the lane to within a foot of the left side as you near the intersection? You could fake a distraction, to telegraph, "I am a dumb, distracted cyclist, I might hit you and cause you to fill out a lot of paperwork"

For some reason, this projection of stupidity also disarms hostility.

I also find that people do this because they are of course in a hurry, but also because they cannot well judge speed and distance. Perhaps they are of old age, are new drivers, have misbalanced eyesight or are inpaired.

What about looking back, seeing that they want to turn, then moving to the left lane? Boy that just sounds bad as I write it.

I find it very entertaining to move to the center of the lane when approaching a stop, and then watching the drivers experience the primal urge to pass and end up in the wrong lane at the stop. The idiocy of these people never ceases to amaze me.

Ahhhh yes, the drivers that have no idea what's going on ahead of them more than one car length away.

riding this last week or so, I've been dissappointed by several motorists swinging way wide around my center of the lane position to short turn a right in front of me. I had one guy position himself for a right turn in the LEFT turn lane approaching an intersection because I was full in the straight/right turn lane. We both approached the intersection simulataneously with his truck nosing ahead of me with its' right turn blinker on. pathetic.

a couple right hooked me yesterday, they got a few feet ahead crossing the double yellow as i was centered in the lane, to cut me off to make a right turn in front of me. i had to slow and swing way wide in a 'bumper lateral' to avoid them as they spooled up to make the turn right in front of me. no patience at all, they could have slowed down and waited less than five seconds...

and a different, crossing manuver.....a motorist in a hurry to enter a one-way arterial making a left was going to cut my girlfriend and I off as we proceeded straight across the intersection. he was too impatient to wait his turn and was just rolling the stopsign directly behind a delivery van despite him needing to stop and yield to us- traffic proceeding straight thru the intersection. pathetic again.

I don't know how some of y'all brazenly expect to evaporate intersection conflicts with lane position as some motorists will ignore destination positioning, ignore rules of the road and try to get a transitory road advantage or pass you regardless.

and if a bicyclist positions themselves so far to the left of a lane motorists pass on the right, opening themself up to left hooks from behind as motorists want to speed up to pass on the right to make a left turn.

motorists need more education than bicyclists do about how to interact on the roads.

I tried to make this point with Helmet Head years ago, but he wasn't buying it. The bottom line is that cyclists are viewed as obstructions, less even than a dog in the road, as we are viewed as being "smart enough to not be there," but stubborn enough to "prove a point." Thus motorists chose to "fight us." Thus we get the attitudes, the trash throwing, the affronts, and the brazen motorists that just want to "teach us a lesson."

But just remember "if you act like the driver of a vehicle, you will be treated like a driver of a vehicle."
:rolleyes:

I tried to make this point with Helmet Head years ago, but he wasn't buying it. The bottom line is that cyclists are viewed as obstructions, less even than a dog in the road, as we are viewed as being "smart enough to not be there," but stubborn enough to "prove a point." Thus motorists chose to "fight us." Thus we get the attitudes, the trash throwing, the affronts, and the brazen motorists that just want to "teach us a lesson."

But just remember "if you act like the driver of a vehicle, you will be treated like a driver of a vehicle."
:rolleyes:

I've come to the conclusion that it's not cyclists that are viewed as an obstruction. They view the world and everything in it as an obstruction.

Good point, Bek. Will you be returning to gutter-hugging now? Do explain your future lane-positioning plans and reasons for doing so in light of this thread.

My experience is pretty much the same as Bek's. My solution is to ride like JoeyBike does, i.e. to hell with vehicular, I ride to my rules my way. Fact is that the only time I've been in conflict with cagers is when practicing vehicular cycling, never have had a problem when riding outlaw.

I don't know if "outlaw" really helps. I am often in situations where I can't imagine that working. It's one thing in city traffic, it's quite another where they are free to go however fast they need to go to get in front of you. And there does seem to be a "need" to get in front of a cyclist that I find nearly inexplicable. I have noticed that if I am traveling at a rate above the speed limit, and taking the lane, that motorists will generally fall back and wait. But that's not always the case, sometimes they are really recklessly speeding to pass.

I'm starting to wonder if helmet cams are the only solution. Either that, or I can get a new lightweight camping axe. Some guy drove off with the last one.

Good point, Bek. Will you be returning to gutter-hugging now? Do explain your future lane-positioning plans and reasons for doing so in light of this thread.

:roflmao:

gutter-hugging?

I'm illustrating the failings of destination positioning in the midst of uncaring, distracted and thoughtless motorists and you accuse me of being a gutter bunny? :rolleyes: did i strike a nerve about the failings of destination positioning?

HAVE YOU BEEN HOOKED WHILE TAKING THE LANE?

i suspect you have- if you've been riding long enough. maybe you're new to all this, chipseal.

...... Why not play dumb, by, (with full awarness of what's rreally behind you), move from slightly right of the center of the lane to within a foot of the left side as you near the intersection?



What about looking back, seeing that they want to turn, then moving to the left lane? Boy that just sounds bad as I write it.

I use both those tactics. you still get hookers (woot!), like the motorist wanting to turn right from the left turn lane. moving to a middle lane to facilitate right turners works well, except you still get motorists impatient to pass. sometimes its copacetic.

How do you know you've bitten off more lane than you can control? when motorists start passing you on your right to make left turns in front of you!

I'm illustrating the failings of destination positioning in the midst of uncaring, distracted and thoughtless motorists and you accuse me of being a gutter bunny? :rolleyes: did i strike a nerve about the failings of destination positioning?
Did I miss your suggestions as to what we should do?

I've seen motorists get right hooked and left hooked in the last couple of days. It's probably somewhat perverse that it actually made me feel better about getting right hooked.

educate the motorists? ride wider bicycles?

why do i need to come up with the solutions as well? I'm the one illustrating the failings of the technique of destination positioning, i didn't say i had a recipe for the neutralizing serum...

These lyrics from System of a Down perfectly summarize both sides of this discussion :thumb:

Stupid people do stupid things,
Smart people outsmart each other,
Then themselves...

Cheers

why do i need to come up with the solutions as well? I'm the one illustrating the failings of the technique of destination positioning, i didn't say i had a recipe for the neutralizing serum...

I was just curious since people who start threads like this usually have an agenda. I can't say that I have a solution either, although I think my life would be better if I took the lane more. YMMV

Gutter-hugging?

I'm illustrating the failings of destination positioning in the midst of uncaring, distracted and thoughtless motorists and you accuse me of being a gutter bunny? Did I strike a nerve about the failings of destination positioning?

Is your point that aggressive lane positioning is the least safe style of bicycling, except for all the rest? With that I would agree. (And for the record, I have not accused you of anything.)


HAVE YOU BEEN HOOKED WHILE TAKING THE LANE?

I suspect you have- if you've been riding long enough. Maybe you're new to all this, ChipSeal.

Let me state again, as I have elsewhere: From October 2006 to the present, having logged over 13,000 miles in the greater Dallas area, I have been right hooked zero times. Because we have eight to ten foot bike lanes that go everywhere here, (We call 'em streets) all of that distance was traveled with lane control. Does that answer your question?

So Bek, will you continue controlling your lane, even though it has failed to eliminate the right hook for you?

what happened in September 2006? is that when you got your first bike?

your take the lane cures all ills is so blithe, - the paltry and pompous postulations from some about their supposed power that comes from controlling the lane.

thanks for being a posterboy for this thread, chipseal!

I run daytime viz flashers- 3 watt front on flash - and wear high viz and position myself quite assertively.

I have come to expect these traffic transgressions. I find the 'lane position as cure all' pablum of the vehikular cyklists crowd leaves something to be desired in actual execution.

Taking the lane is all about percentages. On average, you are safer if you take the lane as it tends to reduce crazy, close passes by cars and right and left hooks.

But of course, there are idiots out there that just don't care about you which you still have to avoid.

My main strategy whenever I ride a bicycle is to take the lane if I have to and also assume that every single car that comes near me is trying to kill me, and develop a contingency plan in case they do something stupid at the last minute.

Im with you, Sam.

I just wanted to use a couple of recent motorist transgressions despite my lane position to illustrate:

some motorists will disregard a bicyclists' lane position and pull boneheaded and/or unsafe maneuvers, and lane position is not a cure all, despite postulations by proud pedal pushers like chipseal

What happened in September 2006? Is that when you got your first bike?

That is when I returned to cycling after a 13 year break. I rode bicycles all over Southern California from 1977 to 1993, mostly in Los Angeles county. My average annual miles for that period was similar to what I have done these past years. From 1979 to 1984 my annual mileage was substantially higher than it is now.

In SoCal, right hooks were frequent because wide outside "sharable" lanes invited such behavior. I attribute much of the safer environment for cycling here in Texas to the superior facilities design of narrow outside lanes.

I will ask again, will you continue controlling your lane, even though it has failed to eliminate the right hook for you?

In my experience taking the lane and destination positioning have been as effective for me as when I drive a motor vehicle - I've never been right hooked or left crossed 'badly' but have had (very rarely) drivers turn across my path closely, not close enough to need to slam the brakes, but enough to let up on the power input - about equally for car or bicycle.

I acknowledge that no matter what vehicle I am driving and where on the roadway I am driving it there is always the possibility for stupid/careless/unaware behavior by others. People get killed by other motorists making left turns in front of all types of vehicles (motorcycle, car, truck, bicycle) that have the right of way and in the vast majority of cases those vehicles are using the full and correct lane for their destination.

I also know from experience that if I don't use the full lane or position myself on the roadway for my destination that these 'near' left/right hook incidents increase significantly.

educate the motorists? ride wider bicycles?

why do i need to come up with the solutions as well? I'm the one illustrating the failings of the technique of destination positioning, i didn't say i had a recipe for the neutralizing serum...

In my city, there is an intersection where I see people run red lights all the time. Does this illustrate the failings of an organized traffic system with laws? Or does this illustrate the need to drive as skillfully as you know how with the knowledge that there are those that don't seem to be able to observe the most basic rules?

Vehicular cycling offers a system the MINIMIZES risk, it does not NEGATE risk. Nothing you can do as a cyclist will eliminate human impatience and stupidity.

It sounds like you are doing the right thing. As you gain experience and confidence, you will find you'll have less problems. Keep at it, and let us know how it goes!

All lane position does is give you some breathing room to maneuver and gives the timid (aka safe) drivers something to think about before passing...it ain't a cure for stoopid. ;)

:lol:

Definitely not a cure for "stoopid". But neither are a lot of other things. I think that the argument -- which I am more than confident you understand -- is that "taking the lane" while traveling in narrow lanes leads to less dangerous interaction than alternative strategies in some probabilistic sense; i.e., most situations with most people.

To add a little more "fuzz" to the thought, I recently had a conversation with a LEO at a county cycling board meeting. Without citing sources other than "studies", he said that most collisions and aggressive driving are done by a small percentage of the driving population. By inference, I think he was also excluding new drivers and by most I don't think he actually meant > 50% as opposed to something wildly disproportinate. Moreover, higher insurance costs, fines, minor incarceration, and so on, appear to have little effect on this population.

I find it very entertaining to move to the center of the lane when approaching a stop, and then watching the drivers experience the primal urge to pass and end up in the wrong lane at the stop. The idiocy of these people never ceases to amaze me.


Agreed! Even had a cop pull this stunt.

But I stopped him in his tracks with a steely-eyed, alpha-user glare.
:D

At red lights, I've had Houston Metro buses right-hook me by going into the opposing traffic lane and make a super-wide right turn onto the perpendicular street. This is after taking I take the lane (as I always do) when approaching the red light to prevent right-hooks.

At red lights, I've had Houston Metro buses right-hook me by going into the opposing traffic lane and make a super-wide right turn onto the perpendicular street. This is after taking I take the lane (as I always do) when approaching the red light to prevent right-hooks.

Impossible. You must not be taking the lane enough.

I've also experimented with this recently on some of our 35 mph four lane streets with no shoulders or bike lanes. It works, but it is a bit stressful. Drivers do express their displeasure with you on a frequent basis, even in bike-friendly Portland. Some women yelled at me this morning because I got into the left lane, realized that my turn wasn't until ten blocks, and signalled again to get back into the right lane. Cars buzz you, rev their engines, break the speed limit to pass, etc. It isn't terrible, but riding the low-traffic 25 mph parallel bike boulevards is a much more leisurely and much less stressful ride (and you can still go pretty fast on them). Motorists also don't get pissed at you on the side streets.

It sounds like you are doing the right thing. As you gain experience and confidence, you will find you'll have less problems. Keep at it, and let us know how it goes!

i've been cycling since 1972, taking the lane since the early 80's, thanks!

i started this thread as i wanted to illustrate the failings of lane position; funny how some of us (most?) have similar experiences with motorists disregarding ones' lane position to pull around regardless.

today, one of the guys came into the shop, he was hooked by a motorist from the 'straight only' lane as he came along in a thru/left turn lane on a one way- he slammed into the car but looked okay. the motorist turned left from the thru lane.

this happened to me last spring (hook from inside lane while fully controlling outside lane)...by being near enough to the stripe, i was able to bumper lateral around the car. *knock wood*

this never happens using proper destination positioning, ya sure, you betchya :rolleyes:

I attribute much of the safer environment for cycling here in Texas to the superior facilities design of narrow outside lanes.


what about that OTHER cyclist in Houston that reports being hooked by metro buses while controlling the lane? narrow lanes and lane control are NOT the cure-all.

oh, and i will continue to control the lane, chipseal -but, like i said in the OP,

The motorists don't CARE about your lane position.

Motorists also don't get pissed at you on the side streets.

I often have cagers pass me on side streets when we're only 30 feet or so from a stop sign. And this happens even when I'm far to the left. Actually, I've even had them pass me on the right when we're close to stop signs, so there's no benefit from lane position, as the OP said.

The worst situation related to this question happens on a 4-lane (very narrow lanes) main street that widens at an intersection to form two turn lanes and two through lanes. I position myself in the center of the righthand through lane. I've had cars pass me on the right (they go through the intersection in the right-turn lane). They are then in a position (across the intersection) where they are merging back into the through lane, right into my path.

I don't know of any lane position that I can take to prevent this from happening. Suggestions would be welcome.

After reading Traffic, I try to ride as unpredictably as possible so the cars give me a little extra space. That said, there are still idiots that pass me 15 mph over the speed limit within 3 feet.

Rule 1: expect them to be greedy and stupid.
Rule 2: make them think you are greedy and stupid.
Rule 3: in case of a tie you die.
Rule 4: never let rule 3 happen, even if it's their fault.