Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Lugged v Non Lugged Pissing contest

At the risk of flame wars I would like to throw out the question of Lugged v non Lugged steel frame design. I have looked at and admired Columbine Frames along with one of my all time favorites Hetchins of England. I love the finished product and can appreciate the artistry that goes into those type of frames. But, (why is there always that but), I think that that type of lug found favor on Road Frame designs rather than Track Frames due to the rather conservative nature of track riders when it comes to technology. They used 151 sized drive train components for years after other systems were available. I guess if you have a lot invested in components, you don't want to re-up for the cost of improvements until absolutely necessary. The whole fancy lug thing, with a few exceptions, never caught on in the track world. I know there are some examples of fancy lugged track frames in the bicycle picture books, but the vast majority are rather plain lugged frames without even lug lining paint. With the advent of tig welded frames, the plain look is continued and even increased.
I have, and love, lugged steel bike frames but I think that the trend is toward the fillet brazed/tig welded frames for a number of reasons, mainly manufacturing cost considerations. Hopefully, there will always be a market that will support the craft of lugged frame construction. I don't think it is a growth industry to get into if you want a financially secure future, but there should be the ability to scrape by on the proceeds from that choice of frame construction, even if you have to delve into the darker side of bike building by also utilizing tig/whatever. I know the guy who used to run Bohemian Cycles had to give it up and return to the computer world after a valiant effort of frame building in which he did some tig welding/fillet brazing along with trying to emphasize some beautiful examples of lugged construction.
I guess my question is. Does everybody like/dislike the look of lugged frames? But when the rubber meets the road, they will buy smooth weld frames of whatever stripe, because of their cheaper cost or even because of their perceived beauty over lugged frames?
Perspiring minds want to know.

fixedgearhead

I will buy whatever bike strikes my fancy, Lugged or not. If the bike is cool and I can afford it then it's all mine.

Agreed. I think the only person out there that is making a good living at building pure lugged frames is Richard Sachs. Why? Pure art and reputation for near perfection. He's been at it long enough that a core number of people will be buying his frames. In the future, I see that as a lessening market due to the current generation of bikers (18-30 y/o) that are growing up seeing, in large part, seamless frames. Carbon/Alu/Ti that looks carved.

Do those buyers change as they get older? I think so. I certainly am taking on a whole new perspective on the lugged frame than I did 5 years ago. I have a Ti road bike that I absolutely love and don't see parting with. However, once that is in the stable, it opens up the ability for the mind to see other things and appreciate the quality and craftmanship that goes into the "art". Something about the gentle, almost fragile lines of a good steel bike really appeal to the eye. The problem with waiting for this generation of riders to come to terms with the viability of lugged or any steel frame certainly creates a void for the builders that practice the art. Income level has something to do with this as well. A young rider sees the price of a Vanilla/Sachs/? frame and they then see the wunderbike in the corner of the shop all pimped and ready to ride for the same money. Hmmm, I have X dollars in pocket.... you get my point.

Where does this all end? I don't know other than the bike thing is very cyclical. You are seeing Serotta and Merlin come out with tig lugged frames with carbon tubes. Beautiful stuff and maybe, just maybe, those lugs will cause us to rethink the beauty and art of a lugged bike.

Dave

I like both... I admire the beauty and workmanship in a nicely dome lugged frame. I also like the functionality and clean lines of tig. Filet brazing is really nice, too. How's that for straddling the fence?

I'm no expert (Thylacine, where are you, mate?) but lots of the modern steel isn't designed for lugs. I'm thinking any of the air-hardened Reynolds and True Temper tubesets here. They are designed for tig. Or look at the Deda EOM stuff - the tube profiles are manipulated & shaped, not round, so you'd have to design lugs accordingly.

Of course, you're right about the time and associated labor cost with artful lugged construction. Lugs don't automatically mean high cost...there are a (dwindling) number of relatively cheap lugged frames available, but when framebuilders get creative with them, then the sky is obviously the limit.

Heck, I like 'em all.

Oh, yeah, and if you need a lug fix then go to bikelugs.com and droll over the purty pics

I let the bike select me.

I do love that drinky crow.

I may be wrong here but it seems to me that in the olden days lugs were done b/c thats the way it was done. So you did'nt really see fancy smanchy lug work. Lugs were just functionality and so to keep costs down they were just plain. Also in those old days a lugless frame was of the cheapest construction. Now that lugs are no longer needed they have become purly an asthetic, and some makers take that to the limits. I have an 80's Tange 2 lugged frame. The lugs on the head tube have some fancyness to it but not much. I am expecting another lugged frame in the mail soon. I have a welded AL frame as a road bike. All have there purpose and functionality.

I'm a pseudo welder and I still prefer lugged frames, though I do appreciate good welding. I think in most cases it has more to do with the delicate looking nature of lugged steel frames. Because lug sets are generally pretty limited as to how big the tubes can be and (thank god) nobody has seen fit to produce lugs for huge tube sets lugged bikes have a certain sense of proportion to them. It's that proportion that I find appealing more than the lugs themselves in most cases. Bring on a nice hand built hand tig welded steel bike with same proportions and I'll likely fall in love, you just don't see that many of them though.
When you get into the really fancy hand cut chromed lugs then well..... all bets are off, that's just ornamentation. Some of it I find exceptionally beautiful, some of it sucks, but that's what personal taste is all about.

I'm gonna come clean and admit that I didn't even know what lugs were until a few months ago. But thanks to fixedgeargallery and the low lifes on this board I've gained an appreciation for "the way things used to be". I think lugged frames have a bit more character in general, but those overly ornate ones are too much form and not enough function for me.

I'm gonna come clean and admit that I didn't even know what lugs were until a few months ago.

I'm also gunna come clean: I didn't know that lugged frames weren't welded, they are brazed, or solded, or whatever. Apparently this involves much less heat.

You've GOTTA read this page from Henry James' web-site: (http://www.henryjames.com/faq.html)
It's a very enoyable for steel fans; he says what I/we(?) want to hear. You must keep in mind that he is very pro steel, and very pro lugs -- he speaks alot about lugs.

I generally prefer the look of lugs, but I don't really care. What I don't like is visible welds on a lugless bike, and what I don't about lugs is having to clean the bloody things. :mad: Getting gunk out of all those little corners and edges is a total pain in the a$$, especially around the bottom bracket -- it's the main reason I ride an aluminium bike in wet weather.

I also like steel frames for the skinny tubes rather then the lugs. But I dont have
an absolute favorite style. I just like bicycles. Thats why I have steel, alu and titanium.
The only thing I really dont like are seatstays that attach to the side of the seattube
cluster.

I think the differences are mostly aesthetic, did i spell that right? Now when you talk about the material the bike is made of, that is a different story. I have an alluminum ocr3, a "high steel" schwinn mountain bike, and a double butted 881 hi tension tubing fuji fixed, which looks like it has lugs to me, but could be wrong. What is that frame made of? Is it good stuff? Of the three bikes, the steel bikes are much more comfortable to me. The fuji, which is almost the perfect size for me, with it's old steel frame, is much, much more comfortable than my one size fits most, aluminum compact frame modern wonder or the schwinn which is too small.

So put me down for fit, then material, then construction, in that order for what really matters on a bike. Lugs or not is a matter of taste. I do like the look of a clean lugged bike.

I still really don't know **** about bikes, i just know what i like.

I will admit to having a look at some of the smooth finish jointed bikes of various materials. I guess that my background of coming of age in the era of lugs does prejudice me in that regard. I can honestly say that I have never ridden an Aluminum, Tig welded, TI, or Carbon Fiber frame so my opinions are rather limited and therefore one sided. I think I will go down to the local bike shop and see if I can take some of the bikes made of "other" materials out for a spin and see what all the hoopla is about. Maybe I will have a "great awakening". I will probably not be able to access the upper end of bike offerings in this area as this market does not support high end bikes, and I doubt I would be able to avail myself of any, even if they did. I don't blame the dealers here, there aren't enough people who ride upper end bikes to shake a stick at. We shall see. I know I will always love lugged steel frames, but maybe there is room for a mistress of another persuasion on the side. You know, something racy and hot and oh, so, trendy.

Fixedgearhead

people tend to value ability over asthetics. i prefer both.

isn't this topic being discussed a bit much on this forum? *yawn*
The horse is dead. F lugs

isn't this topic being discussed a bit much on this forum? *yawn*
The horse is dead. F lugs

Troll alert! Disregard all postings from this jerk. Direct to kill file.

fixedgearhead

isn't this topic being discussed a bit much on this forum? *yawn*
The horse is dead. F lugs

me think you funny

The wrench needs to be banned

maybe the wrench is a bot?

maybe the wrench is a bot?

You should use spell checker That is spelled Butt

fixedgearhead

hahaa! whoa, hi!

I deleted my post that was nuts, sorry. I get carried away about my political viewpoint sometimes, and while it is important, it isn't the only thing in the world. The love of bicycles is a pure thing that, IMHO, doesn't need me to drag it down into the political cesspool.

So again, sorry.

Lugs are great. I even have a loose plan to build a lugged road SS this year. Dunno if that will ever happen, but there ya go.

The big PITA with lugs is that although there is still quite a few available, there's less available than there ever were. Hows that for bad grammar? Anyway, unless you ride a 56cm and like 73/73 angles and low BB's, lugs require a lot of manipulation to customise, because the angles and lengths are dictated by the design of the lugs, geddit?

That's why I'd never buy a cheap lugged frame. Who knows what dodgy bendage was inflicted on that frame to get it to work in your size? There's a reason Richard Sachs charges 2500 bucks for one of his frames - a good lugged frame takes a lot of work. Heck, I think lugs are awesome, and they certainly add an ammount of creativity seldom seen on any other type of fabrication technique.

Now, as for Tig, sure, it's used mostly for speed of fabrication. However, most of the top end air hardening tubesets are designed especially for it, and the option of being able to have any style of tube, any angle, any size you like is the biggest drawcard.

As for aesthetics, well, its just personal preference really.