Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - rando bag with front rack suggestions

whats up everyone,

Im pondering installing a Rando style bag with a front rack and removing my ortlieb handlebar bag .

The ortlieb has worked ok But it is a tad small for spring and fall commutes when Im hauling lots of stuff IE extra gloves , wool hat , multible layers etc,first aid kit and all my personal stuff, wallet with pen, glasses , cell phone, large key chain , pocket knife.....

on my ride into work yesterday I dressed for the cold and half way through the ride I took off the big gloves the hat,helmet cover , and one Tshirt , unfortunatly they did not fit into the handlebar bag, I had to stop open the rear pannier and repack things ...

also with the ortlieb sitting so high and filled with stuff handling gets pretty shakey.


I know BMike is using the ACORN BOXY bag (read his blog) Looks nice, anyone else?? also for Racks, id be looking for a lower profile front rack Nitto M12 maybe the Marks rack .. I have cantis but dont want struts all the way to the axle.

bmike, looks like on your blog Your marks Rack uses the low rider bosses for the struts???

please advise of likes or dislikes of the big box up front other than increased fred factor

any thoughts will be most welcome .

happy spinning

"John"

I have an M-12, and a Nashbar Elite front bag. I changed the bag mounting, so it rests on the rack. It holds some food, a windbreaker, socks, wallet, cue sheet, brevet card, and a few other small odds and ends without getting things all jumbled up.

I learned a bunch of things I did "wrong" on my first event, but my front bag was not one of the things I think needs to be changed.

I have an M-12, and a Nashbar Elite front bag. I changed the bag mounting, so it rests on the rack.

How did you do your mounting mod? Post pix of yours, and when I'm home I'll post pix of how I've done up mine.
I too, have the Nashbar Elite bag, modified to mount on the infamous $7.00 Nashbar canti-mounted front rack. I used some strip metal, machine screws and nylock nuts to make a mounting bar, and reinforced the rear top of the bag (internally) with another strip of light metal, similar to a traditional decaleur rod.

How did you do your mounting mod? Post pix of yours, and when I'm home I'll post pix of how I've done up mine.
I too, have the Nashbar Elite bag, modified to mount on the infamous $7.00 Nashbar canti-mounted front rack. I used some strip metal, machine screws and nylock nuts to make a mounting bar, and reinforced the rear top of the bag (internally) with another strip of light metal, similar to a traditional decaleur rod.

I got the inspiration from you. You sent me the pictures before - I have no doubt.

My solution is a little less elegant, and a bit more makeshift, but it certainly works well enough. I zip-tied the original clip mount to the top of the rack support - which generally provides support to the top of the bag. I hook a mini-bungee to the plastic loop on either side, then route it under the strap, and then wrap around the transverse bar on the top of the rack, and then clip them together. The bag sits nicely on the rack, with just enough support at the top that it doesn't bounce around.

Riding my Bleriot today, I was thinking how handy the Berthoud front bag is and how I must figure out a way to set up a similar rig on my other bikes.

http://members.shaw.ca/randoray/jpegs/RB_inpark.jpg

Here's how my rack (for calliper brakes) is set up (http://www.veloweb.ca/garagepages/vo_rackinstall.html).

If you have cantis, the M-12 is the way to go. Decaleur might require innovation, if you have threadless steerer.

theres a thread I started over here about the boxy rando bag. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=521470)

i'm using the mark's rack. works well enough with the caliper brakes, struts mount to the low riders on my fork. (i hate the front 'tab' on the rack for a light... sort of useless up there, but if i ever switch it to a rear - it will work well for a tailight)

if you have canti's you'll probalby want to go with the m-12, unless you forsee switching between bikes. the mark's rack is pretty versatile, for sure.

you'll want a decaleur to stabilize a heavy or overstuffed bag. i wanted to get one from VO - but i've been told 'not sure, could be a couple a two three months' before they get a new shipment. i'm having a local frame / rack builder make one up. the stabilizing chords work well enough - but the bag was all over the place with the load i posted in that other thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=521470).

if your bars are close enough to the bag you can use leather straps around the h-bars. a friend with an ostrich does this instead of the decaleur. makes keeping it on the bike very secure... but no quick removals for store runs, etc. the acorn bag goes on and off quickly, and the shoulder strap is not half bad. i've done limited groceries this way.

one thing to consider - i'm pressing up on the cables that exit the underside of my h-bar (using ergo levers). not a big deal - but it does make getting into and out of the main compartment a bit tricky while moving. i've nearly mastered the feel for how the elastic chord snaps in place - i use the shifter cable as a guide... with DT shifters this would be cleaner.

also, there is the potential to have a bit of interference with the cable / adjustment on a caliper brake. not a big deal - but the adjustment side of the brake rubs the rear right pouch. just enough to make me annoyed, but not enough to do any damage or interfere with braking.

and... where are you in upstate eastern? i used to live out that way...

and i should add, if you want a ton of payload capacity up front, look at the ostrich or the large berthoud. the acorn is just about right for me. plenty of capacity for sure - better quality than the ostrich by a long shot... i think russ roca posted some comparison shots of the ortlieb, acorn, and ostrich.

Nitto M12, Berthoud mod 28 bag, VO decaleur. Worked like a charm ('cept for the decaleur rotating on the steerer sometimes) until I switched to a 'bent. Back to sqare 1...

SP

thanks for all the replies.

Looks like an m12 for sure, Ill have to figure out a few things

1) how much room I realy need, spring and fall commutes are the real reason for needing the extra space.
and on event rides in dicey weather the up front space can be handy

2) if I go with a front rack ill have to re think my very bright home made quad led (dynohub) its mounted dead center on my fork crown and sits very nice under my ortlieb, that will change with the front rack

as for where I live in NY albany area.

"John"

i'm using the ostrich bag with a VO front "rando" rack:

kind of a busy shot but you get the idea:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3633/3454980246_a1aac3d891.jpg?v=0

i don't use a decaleur, i just strap the sucker to my handlebars & the rack. i like the ostrich, but if anything it's too big. the quality of it is fine too, not sure why the other bags (berthoud) are so much more...

the quality of it is fine too, not sure why the other bags (berthoud) are so much more...

Why is a pair of Diesel jeans $160 when I can get a pair of Wranglers for $30 at Target? It's all about the brand labeling.

the quality of it is fine too, not sure why the other bags (berthoud) are so much more...


not crazy about the quality on the ostrich. a local shop owner has one and upon inspection and listening to his comments i opted to the acorn. much better quality side by side. the fabric feels better - holds its shape more, and the seams and small details appear to be of a higher quality.

that said, the ostrich was on my list - its just too big for me.

I would say the ostrich is probably too big for the most part,

the watanabe and Bethroud are way too much $$ the acorn is about right a tad bigger would be perfect.

Looks like velo orange is having a rando mag made for them, I saw a few photos on the VO blog it looked nice not sure of the size but is Canvas with leather trim maybe ill wait and see what it looks like when VO has it for sale.

again what do I do with my light??

also whats the general opinion of having a much bigger front bag and its effect on handling??

I would think the bike would handle better as the load is lower But there is the capacity for more weight?

Ive been use to using small bag up front and larger bags in back. Though with the rando front bag Many of the photos I see are small /med bag in back with the large bag up front comments??

"John"

The geometry of the bike has to work with a front bag. Height is not the most important issue, weight vs. front end geometry is the most important issue.

The geometry of the bike has to work with a front bag. Height is not the most important issue, weight vs. front end geometry is the most important issue.

yes and no... true a really heavy load will work better with a bike purpose built for it - but for my rig with geometry somewhere between a race bike and touring bike running 28s it all works. wheel flop at low speeds is an issue - but i've been just fine at pace and on fast descents to run no handed.

getting that weight down to the fork helps more than i thought it would, as i too moved from an ortlieb to rack and front bag.

again what do I do with my light??

most racks will have holes for screws, that you can put your light on. but since the ostrich bag is so long, i got a metal extender piece from the LBS that i used to attach my E6 to the rando rack.


also whats the general opinion of having a much bigger front bag and its effect on handling??

i used to use a carradice "junior" saddlebag, which is about as big as a handlebar bag. i hated climbing with it, as even when it wasn't swaying, just that extra weight meant you had to fight the bike more. with the load up front, climbing feels much more natural, especially when standing.

also, i didn't get a special-geometry bike for my upfront load; i'm not saying the whole "french constructeur fork rake" theory is wrong, just that with a little care in your handling, any bike can carry that up front load. it might be easier to ride no-handed if i had the "right" geometry, but i can still do it with an off-the-shelf pacer, fwiw.

again what do I do with my light??

Similar to mattm, I modded my rack to accept my light. The infamous $7 Nashbar rack is a no-frills thing, so there are no fancy threaded eyelets for mounting lights. Instead, I bought a Lumotech LT161 metal mounting bracket and modified it with a second hole in the bottom plate, then drilled the rack platform and affixed it so my E3 rides front and center, just above the rack.

again what do I do with my light??



fork mount with knobs from peter white, fork mount with some gadgets from VO, skewer mount with similar gadgets, and if you get the mark's rack i'm working on a mod this afternoon for that...

Im sure I can come up with something, almost thinking of brazing my own rack (time permitting)

My issue is my light is in a perfect spot dead center under the bag and just above the wheel ,

looks like if I go the front rack route the light will have to be monted on the side of the rack

not the end of the world. I personnaly dont like lights mounted too low.

no big deal

thanks

"john"

my E3 rides front and center, just above the rack.


looks like if I go the front rack route the light will have to be monted on the side of the rack


Why? Especially if you're going to make your own rack, you can put whatever mounts you want on there for your lights, wherever you want them.

Looks like velo orange is having a rando mag made for them, I saw a few photos on the VO blog it looked nice not sure of the size but is Canvas with leather trim maybe ill wait and see what it looks like when VO has it for sale.

10 more days until VO has their rando bag on the site. It will match their other house-branded bags: Waxed cotton duck with leather trim. I'll ask Tom if he'll hook me up with the dimensions, since I told him about mention of it here on BF.

I personnaly dont like lights mounted too low.


why?

I spoke to Chris at VO yesterday he wasnt sure on the size of the bag he did say it was black.

I can wait a few days to see how big it is and how nice the details are. chris said it should be around $100.00


as for the rack Your nashbar rack mounts to canti stud as the M12 does My question is will it work with the PAUL style brakes?? Ive seen some shots of the nashbar and M12 with standard cantis but none with a PAUL type brake with the floating spring. HMMM ill have to search a bit and see.

it looks like I could adapt a MARKS rack like Bmike has or get the BERTHROUD rack , as the struts will bolt onto the low rider bosses on my fork, Im trying to avoid P clips.

making a rack is possible but finding the time is always a challenge.


To answer Bmike question about the lights being low, I had 2 lights mounted on my fork blades on my cross check they worked fine but the wheel shadow was annoying and the lights got covered in crud all the time after rain storms.

I do like the light much better on the fork crown above the wheel


CliftonGK1 if you can get some sizing on VOs Bag that would be great

Many thank

"John"

russ roca mounts his on the tab of the mark's rack...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3457/3295770206_2f51c595ed.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3395946557_462cc1eb7e.jpg

thanks Bmike,

either of those mount methods will be fine.

I do believe the M12 will Not work with paul style brakes so It looks like The marks Berthroud or home built so I can use the low rider Bosses.

curious if CliftonGK1 gets the dimensions.

thanks again

"John"

thanks Bmike,

either of those mount methods will be fine.

I do believe the M12 will Not work with paul style brakes so It looks like The marks Berthroud or home built so I can use the low rider Bosses.

curious if CliftonGK1 gets the dimensions.

thanks again

"John"

i'll get you a pic of my light setup when i finish it up. using an extra mark's rack bolt. going to slide it down the main stay and use a coupling nut to tighten it to the rack and have a place to thread in a bolt from my light bracket. bike is currently snuggled in a friend's car for our journey to a 200k this weekend.

curious if CliftonGK1 gets the dimensions.

Tom's out of the office until Tuesday, but he's going to look around and see if he can find the exact dimensions when he's back.

His best guess-timate on a size comparison was something like the medium Berthoud, followed with "but you already know I'm not the 'memorize all the specs' guy, so don't hold me to that."

Have a great ride!!!

Happy spinning

"JOHN"

i'm using the mark's rack. works well enough with the caliper brakes, struts mount to the low riders on my fork.

Question about this comment. I had Mike DeSalvo make me a fork along with my frame. I also had him add mounts for a Tubus Duo low rider front rack. Would I be save in assuming the Mark's Rack would mount to these brazons?

If so this is ideal. My plan was to get one of the Nitto racks from VO and you a clamp, which I wasn't all that thrilled about. The Mark's Rack will be a more elegant solution.

I use an M12 rack with a Berthoud bag. My E6 light is mounted upside down to one of the threaded eyelets provided with the rack. I had to make an approx. 1 cm long spacer out of aluminum rod in order to get the light to clear the rack. The light is at about crown level and on the left side of the rack. It is easy to get to while riding and there is no shadow effect.

Building a rack is actually kind of tough; getting the radii correct and everything lined up. I have a box full of rejects from learning it. Adding threaded bosses to an existing rack is extremely simple though, and may address one of the OP's needs.

My E6 light is mounted upside down...

And you can still manage to see anything using it?

I have an array of helmet mounted lenses and mirrors that turn the image right side up, as long as I'm in the northern hemisphere.

<edit> It occurs to me that might have been a serious question. I flipped the lens around so the light still works the way it's supposed to.

I have an array of helmet mounted lenses and mirrors that turn the image right side up, as long as I'm in the northern hemisphere.

<edit> It occurs to me that might have been a serious question. I flipped the lens around so the light still works the way it's supposed to.

Aw man. The array of mirrors sounds a lot more fun... (It was a serious question, btw. I didn't know you could flip the lens on the E6 lamp.)

Yeah, at first I thought you were just goofing around. :p

At any rate, the lens is designed to fit only one way, but 30 seconds with a file enlarges one of the tab holes which then allows it to fit either way. The only trouble with that is that if you find yourself changing a bulb in the dark you may accidentally reinstall the lens upside down, as the "failsafe" no longer exists.

Question about this comment. I had Mike DeSalvo make me a fork along with my frame. I also had him add mounts for a Tubus Duo low rider front rack. Would I be save in assuming the Mark's Rack would mount to these brazons?

If so this is ideal. My plan was to get one of the Nitto racks from VO and you a clamp, which I wasn't all that thrilled about. The Mark's Rack will be a more elegant solution.

assuming that 'low riders' are mounted about mid fork level, yes, a mark's rack should mount nicely to these.
my fork is steel from IF. works well.

Have a great ride!!!

Happy spinning

"JOHN"

was a great ride. took a bit longer than i anticipated mainly due to the heat...

descending no hands at 30 mph.
stable.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_0jkA5M3PGcY/SfSTLTGihSI/AAAAAAAAKgs/tpgPcww9UOU/s800/IMG_7974.JPG

Nice photo,

yep is was hot over the weekend, thanks for the help everyone.

Im waiting to see what the VO bag looks like and then Ill order one of them or an acorn.

the Acorn bag is a great looking bag Im just waiting to see the size of the VO bag.

Ill be glad to remove the ortlieb its a nice well thought out bag and mount , but its just too small for my needs and the fact that when I load it up it bounces the whole ride.

also I switch rear bags quite a bit depending on what Im carrying so it would be nice to leave my Lock, Tool kit , first aid , extra glasses,... in the big Rando bag all the time, right now im moving the first aid kit , tool kit and mini pump to what ever rear bag Im using last week I used the homemade panniers, today commute the carradice .

that said I think CliftonGK1 is right about making the rack too much time involved to get it right esp without jigs ... however making a platform rack would be easy But the bike this is going on isnt a fred machine so Ill buy a rack.


looks like either the MARKS rack or the Berthroud (according to peter whites site the bertrhroud rack bolts to the lowrider bosses??!!) and use a Decaleur right from the start.

the VO racks have integrated Decaleur But I dont like the full length struts nor do I want to use PClips.

Bmike I like the Bell ,,, Handy??? I said "on your left" too many times this morning so I TINKS the bell is a better idea, and would fred me out a bit more!!

"John"

hello again,

just a note, as I suspectad the Nitto M12 will not work with Paul brakes or the Trillium Big squeeze due to the spring assy. I was thinking a special bolt set up would be in order

PAUL componts (which did not surprise me) makes special bolts just for this application, dont know if it will work on the trillium big squeeze brake that That Im using now but ill check against a Paul Neo retro that I have in the parts box .

Ill bet the bolts would work fine for the trillium brakes.


million $ question

stick with the nitto M12 the only issue that the rack will have to be loosend when I adjust brakes due to using the special bolts

bolts from Pauls are $25 a set from pauls and a m12 rack $65-75 various places. nice low profile rack

or go with A MARKS or a Bethroud the strut on these should attach to the low rider bosses on my tubular touring fork.

I like the idea of the m12 being a compact design but Im not sure about SPECIAL Bolts as any time there is somthing unique one has problems when you least expect it sort of thing.

HMMM there is also the mega parts bin at the harware store could conjur somthing up perhaps.

your thoughts please

'John"

I have an array of helmet mounted lenses and mirrors that turn the image right side up, as long as I'm in the northern hemisphere.

<edit> It occurs to me that might have been a serious question. I flipped the lens around so the light still works the way it's supposed to.

i thought the E6 had to be mounted a certain way - when i tried it upside down the beam was definitely off.

i had no idea you could turn the lens around though, good to know! thx.

You'll find that the lens has two notches. One has square corners and the other has rounded corners. This prevents the lens being mounted upside down. Use a file or X-acto knife to square off the round corners and the lens will then fit either way.

Paul does make a special setup for cantilever mounted racks. It pushes the rack struts out about a half inch, which makes some racks sit canted up. I've seen racks that are drilled by the user, those should sit at the desired angle.

I spoke to Chris at VO yesterday he wasnt sure on the size of the bag he did say it was black. I can wait a few days to see how big it is and how nice the details are. chris said it should be around $100.00 if you can get some sizing on VOs Bag that would be great

I just ran across this thread and looked at the VO site. Their "Campagne" handlebar bag is now selling ($95) and here is some of what they say about it.

"The bag opens toward the rider. The size is about 20cm high x 16cm deep x 28cm wide. There are removable handlebar straps included." It ahso has 5 pockets, much like the Ostrich bag.

Just for reference the Ostrich bag is 22cm high x 20cm deep x 26cm wide.

It looks like a great bag, Once I get the front rack I'm looking at, I'll certainly consider ordering one of these. All it takes is money...:(

thanks for the reply.

Well Im all rigged up , I did purchase the VELO ORANGE Bag.

I actually wanted the ACORN RANDO Bag But I had no way to order on the May 7th since I had to be out of the office early am with no computer access .

]RONS (acorn) paypal buttons would not be up untill 6am PST (9am est) and his orders for the month would be filled in short time so I missed the order window again I wanted a rear bag last time but missed the paypal buttons due to work.

I didnt want to wait another month or so in order to MAYBE get to order a bag so the VO bag it was.

The VO bag is very nice same size as the ACORN, the small pockets are a bit smaller than the acorn but
all in all a very nice bag and less than 100.00

the bag comes with 3 stiffeners but I took the bottom one out and replaced it with my favorite stiffener
material a $2.97 cutting board from xmart much stiffer now.

Ive got it rigged with just straps and its pretty solid though the side rings will pull out after awhile so most likely a Decaluer or perhaps Ill cut up some heavier stffeners for the sides and put a eyebolt right through them and then use that spot to strap bag to drops in hanlebars.

"john"

thanks for the reply.

Well Im all rigged up , I did purchase the VELO ORANGE Bag.

I actually wanted the ACORN RANDO Bag But I had no way to order on the May 7th since I had to be out of the office early am with no computer access .

]RONS (acorn) paypal buttons would not be up untill 6am PST (9am est) and his orders for the month would be filled in short time so I missed the order window again I wanted a rear bag last time but missed the paypal buttons due to work.

I didnt want to wait another month or so in order to MAYBE get to order a bag so the VO bag it was.

The VO bag is very nice same size as the ACORN, the small pockets are a bit smaller than the acorn but
all in all a very nice bag and less than 100.00

the bag comes with 3 stiffeners but I took the bottom one out and replaced it with my favorite stiffener
material a $2.97 cutting board from xmart much stiffer now.

Ive got it rigged with just straps and its pretty solid though the side rings will pull out after awhile so most likely a Decaluer or perhaps Ill cut up some heavier stffeners for the sides and put a eyebolt right through them and then use that spot to strap bag to drops in hanlebars.

"john"

sounds like a nice bag... i'm glad i got in on the acorn... i would hate to have to open those buckles on the rear pockets while riding...

but, YMMV, and it looks really well done.

what cutting board do you use?

-mike

HI bMIKE,

I realy would have liked the acorn bag but no joy Twice Now bought a carradice last time (ugly white straps)

the VO bag is fine, its made off shore , looks good price was right.

I too was a little concerned with the straps on the pockets , but to no avail I opened the one on the right this morning to answer the cell phone and I was able to open it while riding pretty easy.

the overall size is of the VO Bag is the same as the ACORN but the pockets do not look as not as deep as ACORN but are adaquate.

as for my preffered stiffener I buy the multi colored cutting boards that one can find at any XMART

8.5 x 11 not quite 1/4" thick I took the thin/flimsy bottom stiffener out of the VO bag /traced onto the cutting board and cut it out. much stiffer than the one supplied.

I did the same on a homemade set of panniers I used the cutting boards as the internal BACK /harware mount plates on some rubberized NATO mussete bags. they work great and are water proof (from rain anyway).

as for the VO rando bag I have it rigged like yours but with small leather straps from the d rings to my handle bars.

its pretty stable But the D rings will rip out if I dont do somthing stronger as the leather tabs are not real strurdy


1) I may get another cutting board and replace the thin side stiffeners in the bag and then attach a stainless eyebolt or D ring right through the bag/stiffener

2) VO decaluer (stem ring style) VO wont have any for 6 weeks But I sourced some SS stuff to make my own and I can use a tig welder here at work.

# 1 would be easy and plenty secure actually the leather straps look nice

#2 involved but would clean the mounting up.

the only other issue but easy to solve is securing the bottom The VO bag has one leather tab and a silly buckle strap , no good cant get tight enough

SOOOOOO

1) do the GNU watanabe method , ill attach additional tiedown points ( i'll drill through bag and cutting board stiffener) and string some leather shoelaces to use as tie downs onto the marks rack.

2) fabricate a mechanical holdown device. perhaps a long spring ???

Im not sure about having to remove the bag easy , my ortlieb was removed in a blink but I never found the need to take it off the bike except to put on the single speed (its new permanent home)

the only other mod will be to install a bungee or velro strap to keep my big tool kit from bouncing when I hit a bump annoying noise and makes the bag jump. this is an easy fix as ill just remove the Blue cutting board stiffener and poke a few holes or dremel a slot for a velcro strap.

thats all she wrote.

BTW I mounted my light (came out nice) I went to a discount store and bought a brushed stainless steel Kitchen spoon. (same as used for my crown light mount.

I cut the spoon handle to the desired length bent in a "U" shape and then bolted one leg of the "U" to/through the rear side tab of the marks rack and hose clamped my light to the other "U" Leg(my light is a quad LED suger shaker homebuilt) this is very secure since the spoon handle is concave it snugs the housing tight.

the light sits right under my bag on the right hand side.

the only issue is My wheel shadow is somwhat back to annoy me but its not as bad as when the light was on the lowrider boss (i didnt like it there).

the fork crown was perfect but cant do with the bag.

the loacation under bag will be fine , nice thing is the light will be protected by the bag to some degree.

"John"

JohnJ, do you have any pictures of your set-up? I'm curious to see both the stiffener replacement and the spoon handle light mount.
I was on VO to order a Campagne bag and found their "prototypes" for the bag on the specials page for a little cheaper and ordered one of those in black (I've looked since and they're no longer listed so I must have got one of the few). It should arrive today and I'm looking for the best way to set it up.
Thanks, CMC