Advocacy & Safety - Witnessed pure insanity - need confirmation

We had extremely high winds here today, so I was off my bike and in my car on the way home today. In the lane next to me was a roadie in full kit, even a nice sleeveless Colorado state flag jersey. I was impressed at this person's resolve to bike despite the winds at 35 mph.

No sooner than I had that thought, I watched this person do the following as we both approached an intersection:

We had the green light. I continued forward. The roadie went forward and then STOPPED abruptly in the dead center of the intersection, turns the bike, and plants themselves in FRONT of the lane of waiting traffic in the opposite direction currently under the red light. Positions themselves as though they're now the head of the line waiting for the light to change going the other way.

And to be clear - there were 2 lanes and a 3rd turn lane. This person put themselves in front of the car waiting at the middle lane. They weren't beside or next to a car, they were dead center in front.

What would you do if you were the head car waiting at the light? Would it be any different if a motorcycle or sedan passing by on a green light just suddenly skidded their tires and did a 180 and parked in front of you if they realized they needed to cross?

Are there cyclists out there who do this routinely and I'm just not used to seeing it, or was this truly as nutty a thing for them to do as it appeared???? :eek:

In this situation, a driver could rightfully claim, upon police questioning, that the cyclist-turned-speedbump "came out of nowhere."

flame on!

:eek:

flame on!

:eek:

Burning him alive is a bit harsh. I'd say just break his legs and wrap the top-tube around his head.

do you mean instead of changing lanes and making a u turn from the left lane he did that?

I assume he did this instead of making the usual vehicular left turn? Don't know what to think, but it doesn't seem all that bad if he was not in the way of moving traffic. I have run into similar situations when exiting a bike path, but I usually don't put myself in front.

I guess the way he looks at it is that he had the right of way and just asserted it in a non-traditional manner. I have been known to hesitate to cross two lanes of traffic to get to a left turn lane. I'm a procrastinator.

He probably crossed the intersection faster than the cars anyway, and then got over to the side when they caught up to pass him.

Sounds to me like a variation of the two step left. I won't try to guess why he decided to not make a vehicular left turn.

He probably crossed the intersection faster than the cars anyway, and then got over to the side when they caught up to pass him.
+1

A bit strange, but not pure insanity as you put it.

Sounds like a two step direction change, which is the safest way to change direction at an intersection, but the whole stopping in the middle of the intersection thing sounds a bit wierd...

(This two step thing is actually recommended in government educational brochures and the like, for when you don't feel confident enough to do it the usual way.)

I'll sometimes do a two step left turn on busy roads with no dedicated left turn lane. Sometimes people freak out over this but then again sometimes the freak out of me doing a normal left turn or even riding in the road so no no big deal.

do you mean instead of changing lanes and making a u turn from the left lane he did that?

To clarify: As we were going forward (North) on the green light, the biker is in the right-hand lane, I'm in the left. They're riding just like any other vehicle, and the right side of the intersection is where this happened. At no point was this bike competing with me for space or trying to turn left.

A car would have had to turn right at the light, then make a U-turn and get behind the other waiting cars to cross (facing West) when their light turned green. Instead of doing that, this biker stopped in their right-hand lane, turned 180, and placed themselves in front of the first car in the middle lane.

ETA: see above. Left turn in the overall sense, but not in the sense that they were in the left lane.

o
that's normal :)

Just being clear - this was NOT a left turn. And it was a stop in the middle of a 4-lane, 4-way intersection. They were riding North, in the right lane, then stopped in the right lane, backed up and turned 180 degrees to face West in front of the other cars waiting to cross West when the light changed.

That's 90 degrees not 180. No wonder I was having trouble understanding this thread :p

And I've done this. Not a big deal.

Normal in which sense? To place yourself in front of waiting traffic that's going to be infinitely faster in their takeoff than you will as you start pedaling? Had this person placed themselves in the far lane, where they could take the shoulder initially and take the lane as they get up to speed, I wouldn't see it being as much of a concern. But this is a 50 mph main drag at the foot of an incline during rush hour.

That's 90 degrees not 180. No wonder I was having trouble understanding this thread :p

And I've done this. Not a big deal.

Sorry - 90 is right. How is it not a big deal? In all humility - why would you place yourself directly in front of a line of waiting traffic like that? Would you try this if you were in your own car?

I guess my bigger picture question is - if we want cars to see us as cars, why is it then ok to make these kind of exceptions and behave as though we're not bound by the same rules? It's like cutting in line at the grocery store when you have 2 cartloads of items to scan and the guy you cut off just needs to pay for a gallon of milk.

What would be the big deal in turning right, coming back to face west, and getting in the lane just like any other vehicle?

Wouldn't have made such an impression on me except there's already been someone killed on this same road this year. Cars aren't looking for people to begin with, and then to see some bikers cutting corners so-to-speak, just makes me cringe when we're still so new into the season yet.

The guy in the first car was certainly muttering "f***ing cyclists shouldn't be on the road". I know a lot of people have ill will towards people in cars and vice versa but imho this does not make the public think very highly of cyclists. I ride a lot but if I was in the first car I'd have said something to him.

I'd have made the right turn and then done a u-turn and gotten in line and waited.

Normal in which sense? To place yourself in front of waiting traffic that's going to be infinitely faster in their takeoff than you will as you start pedaling?

speak for yourself. While personally I would take my place in line, when I am in the front I am usually through the intersection well before the traffic behind me...unless there is some impatient wannabe Garlits on my six.

This turned out safe for everyone.
What's the problem.

Ride to be safe not legal.

We had extremely high winds here today, so I was off my bike and in my car on the way home today. In the lane next to me was a roadie in full kit, even a nice sleeveless Colorado state flag jersey. I was impressed at this person's resolve to bike despite the winds at 35 mph.

No sooner than I had that thought, I watched this person do the following as we both approached an intersection:

We had the green light. I continued forward. The roadie went forward and then STOPPED abruptly in the dead center of the intersection, turns the bike, and plants themselves in FRONT of the lane of waiting traffic in the opposite direction currently under the red light. Positions themselves as though they're now the head of the line waiting for the light to change going the other way.

And to be clear - there were 2 lanes and a 3rd turn lane. This person put themselves in front of the car waiting at the middle lane. They weren't beside or next to a car, they were dead center in front.

What would you do if you were the head car waiting at the light? Would it be any different if a motorcycle or sedan passing by on a green light just suddenly skidded their tires and did a 180 and parked in front of you if they realized they needed to cross?

Are there cyclists out there who do this routinely and I'm just not used to seeing it, or was this truly as nutty a thing for them to do as it appeared???? :eek:

How is this different from someone filtering forward at a stop, and then planting themselves right in front of the cars already stopped? Lots of cyclists do that, lots of scooter riders do that.

How is this different from someone filtering forward at a stop, and then planting themselves right in front of the cars already stopped? Lots of cyclists do that, lots of scooter riders do that.

Every one of my hood ornaments did that. :eek:

How is this different from someone filtering forward at a stop, and then planting themselves right in front of the cars already stopped? Lots of cyclists do that, lots of scooter riders do that.

That's also a bad idea.

That's also a bad idea.

Really? I do it all the time when I want to ensure that motorists know I am there.

I don't always filter forward, but there are times when I am about to enter a flow of traffic that may have different lane choices, and I want motorists to not make assumptions about what I might do, so I move forward and plant myself in the lane in a way to show and control where traffic is about to go. Everyone is at stop, so it is hardly a dangerous thing to do.

In Europe it is highly expected for cyclists and scooters to filter forward.

The new bike boxes in Portland are designed exactly for this sort of forward position.

http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bikeboxjaylawrence.jpg

Really? I do it all the time when I want to ensure that motorists know I am there.

I don't always filter forward, but there are times when I am about to enter a flow of traffic that may have different lane choices, and I want motorists to not make assumptions about what I might do, so I move forward and plant myself in the lane in a way to show and control where traffic is about to go. Everyone is at stop, so it is hardly a dangerous thing to do.

In Europe it is highly expected for cyclists and scooters to filter forward.

The new bike boxes in Portland are designed exactly for this sort of forward position.

http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bikeboxjaylawrence.jpg

In locations where the infrastructure is designed for 2-wheeled vehicles to filter (e.g., the above photo), there's nothing wrong with it. In most places in the US, where such infrastructure doesn't exist, it looks like a good way to antagonize drivers. My approach is simply to get in line at an intersection.

Sorry - 90 is right. How is it not a big deal? In all humility - why would you place yourself directly in front of a line of waiting traffic like that? Would you try this if you were in your own car?

I guess my bigger picture question is - if we want cars to see us as cars, why is it then ok to make these kind of exceptions and behave as though we're not bound by the same rules? It's like cutting in line at the grocery store when you have 2 cartloads of items to scan and the guy you cut off just needs to pay for a gallon of milk.

What would be the big deal in turning right, coming back to face west, and getting in the lane just like any other vehicle?

Wouldn't have made such an impression on me except there's already been someone killed on this same road this year. Cars aren't looking for people to begin with, and then to see some bikers cutting corners so-to-speak, just makes me cringe when we're still so new into the season yet.

You obviously know this intersection far better than I do, so I suppose I'm not really qualified to say whether this was a bonehead move or not.

But I think that this move can sometimes be okay, given the dynamics of the particular intersection. Like others have already said, if I know I can be out of the way of the line of cars in a reasonable amount of time after the light turns green, I might consider it if the other options available to me are undesirable.

While not really the same thing, there's this one intersection that I ride through frequently where I always filter through and park my butt directly in front of the first car waiting in line. This may be considered rude, but it's the safest thing for me to do there. The intersection has cars coming in from several odd angles, and it's a complete mess for all involved. Motorist have a hard time with the intersection too and often use their size advantage to bully the poor cyclist. It's every man for himself, everyone cutting everyone else off. Getting in the front of the line lets me clear the intersection as quick as possible, and actually minimizes my interaction with motorists, which is to their benefit too. </tangent>

That's also a bad idea.

Not always. (See my previous post.)

Bet you cut in line at the grocery store too, Gene, you bully.

What would be the big deal in turning right, coming back to face west, and getting in the lane just like any other vehicle?


That would mean that this guy you saw would have to take a left or make a U somewhere else. From what you described he either doesn't like, or doesn't know how to do that.

It does sound like a variation on the two step left. In an odd twist, I wonder if it made more sense to the automobile drivers watching this than doing something totally insane like a bike changing lanes and making a left like any other vehicle.

Speedo

I do this very frequently, except I always move to the side of the rightmost lane of waiting traffic instead of the front (take care to avoid blind spots if there may be right-turners).

When you have three lanes of dense traffic going twice your own speed between you and the left turn lane it's far more trouble (and risk) than it's worth to move over to it, either quickly or gradually. I will move to the turn lane if there's a decent gap in traffic, though.

In locations where the infrastructure is designed for 2-wheeled vehicles to filter (e.g., the above photo), there's nothing wrong with it. In most places in the US, where such infrastructure doesn't exist, it looks like a good way to antagonize drivers. My approach is simply to get in line at an intersection.

There are certain intersections in my area where "just getting in line" will get you cut off. These are where there are 3 lanes turning into 2 lanes either at a turn or even going straight. There is one particular intersection where there is a bike lane, 3 lanes and a right turn lane on north side of the intersection, and as you cross to the south, it becomes merely 2 lanes, with parked cars on the right side.

The safest thing to do at that intersection is to plant yourself in the lane that continues straight across as you have to take that lane when you cross the intersection. You have no choice. (unless you are really "technical" and can ride over parked cars) Positioning yourself in any other way invites being cut off.

The only other way to cross is to slow down so you are well behind any moving traffic... so it all depends on whether you arrive with a red light or a green light.

We can debate this all day long, but I have commuted that road for 7 years and have tried all sorts of variations, and the thing that works best, is what I just described.

There is one particular intersection where there is a bike lane, 3 lanes and a right turn lane on north side of the intersection, and as you cross to the south, it becomes merely 2 lanes, with parked cars on the right side.


Are you saying that this intersection has 3 through lanes and a bike lane entering from the north and only two lanes (and no bike lane) exiting to the south? Did I read your comment correctly? Are you sure the right hand lane doesn't merge after the intersection? If the lane actually disappears within the intersection then this is a huge liability problem for the city/state and I can't imagine they haven't fixed it.

Nothing insane about that, i've done it when i want to make a left but the there is traffic in the lanes beside me and i can't change position before i reach the light. So i just stop at the other street where it's red and then proceed forward.

It depends on how the rest of the intersection is laid out. If there is a good shoulder on the opposite side of the intersection, I could see parking yourself at the front right side of the lane. This way, you are visible and unlikely to be right hooked, but as you proceed through the intersection, you can move right and allow faster traffic to pass. If there is not a good shoulder on the other side of the intersection, take the lane.....at the end of the line.

How is this different from someone filtering forward at a stop, and then planting themselves right in front of the cars already stopped? Lots of cyclists do that, lots of scooter riders do that.


... In Europe it is highly expected for cyclists and scooters to filter forward.

The new bike boxes in Portland are designed exactly for this sort of forward position.

http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bikeboxjaylawrence.jpg

When I was in London I noticed a version of the bike box that motor cycles could use as well.

There was no lane to the side to lead to the box, but cyclists and motor cyclists would filter through these impossibly narrow streets (and I thought I passed close to cars) to get in front of the line.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2545928483_f6ac53e449.jpg


... The roadie went forward and then STOPPED abruptly in the dead center of the intersection, turns the bike, and plants themselves in FRONT of the lane of waiting traffic in the opposite direction currently under the red light. Positions themselves as though they're now the head of the line waiting for the light to change going the other way.

Here's a diagram from a government approved bike instruction manual that may describe the possible intention of the cyclist (it would be the #3 option - proceed as if you were coming from the right)

http://www.bikesense.bc.ca/images/pg16traffic.jpg


And to be clear - there were 2 lanes and a 3rd turn lane. This person put themselves in front of the car waiting at the middle lane...

It's also possible that the curb lane is a right turn lane and the cyclist, planning to move forward does not want to be to the right of a vehicle making a right hand turn.

Another diagram from the same manual showing lane position.

http://www.bikesense.bc.ca/images/pg15traffic.jpg

I have a very busy intersection I navigate each morning and sometimes, I can't get over to the left to make the left turn. As an alternative I stop at the front of the line of the traffic waiting at the red. It's much more safe.

We can debate this all day long, but I have commuted that road for 7 years and have tried all sorts of variations, and the thing that works best, is what I just described.

I'm not really interested in debating this. You ride your way, and I'll ride mine. In the end, that's what it's all about.

I've sometimes used the maneuver as described in the OP to make a left turn and have never encountered any indication from the following car drivers that they had any resentment. I do this only if I feel that due to traffic conditions it isn't safe for me to get over into the left turn lane so I have to do the two-stage left instead. Going all the way to the far right side of the road risks having right-turning cars try to hook around me, so I stay at the front of the right-most lane that has traffic going straight. Once the light changes I move a little to the right so cars behind me can easily get past.

I don't see any problem with this method of making a left turn from a busy street where getting into the left turn lane could be dangerous. I get through the intersection safely and no one else is impeded by me.

...should the cyclist have ridden to the back of the rush hour traffic jam to wait at the end of the line of the cars?

what the rider did was 100 percent A-OK. to the OP- DEAL WITH IT! If you're in your car complaining about bicyclist two step lefts, you're not part of the cyclist team, you're part of the motor pool angry at bicyclists.

It sounds to me like the cyclists has two options: Be in the front of the line or be in the back of the line, miss the light and end up in the front of the line at the next light.

Rarely do I make a two point turn where I end up on a busy fast road but when I do I do usually claim the right most through lane (to avoid right hooks) but once across the intersection I'll pull to the curb to let the faster traffic by.

the few of you that think cars start up faster at intersections need to get your act together. I generally don't filter to the front, but motorists annoy the heck out of me at lights by how slow they are to react. I'm not asking for lighting fast reflexes, but I swear there are glaciers that move faster.

Are you saying that this intersection has 3 through lanes and a bike lane entering from the north and only two lanes (and no bike lane) exiting to the south? Did I read your comment correctly? Are you sure the right hand lane doesn't merge after the intersection? If the lane actually disappears within the intersection then this is a huge liability problem for the city/state and I can't imagine they haven't fixed it.

The right hand lane does merge within about 100 feet of the other side of the intersection... right where there is a bus stop. The bike lane does end however on the north side of the intersection. (Huge "liability problem?")

I posted several images below to show where I typically stop, (red X) and what my path usually is. I have discussed this same route with other cyclists that know the area... we are all in full agreement about this. The other issue is the various driveways from the apartment building ahead, as well as the cross street just in front of the last parked cars.

The apartment building is popular for students that go to the local college a couple miles away... and typically in the afternoon (at rush hour) parked cars line the street right up to the bus stop. These Google Earth images were probably taken during a weekend, when this road is hardly traveled at all.

During the week, at rush hour, this area is bumper to bumper traffic, moving at times at 45+MPH, except right at the peak of rush hour between 4:45 to 5:45; then this area is usually bumper to bumper traffic not moving at all... in fact, it can take a motorist up to 45 minutes on a typical afternoon to move just one mile to the next major intersection just up the hill and beyond. (a bicycle IS the only way to travel then) :D

This road has been the heart of many local newspaper and public debates, due to that 45 minute "blockage" and how this could impede emergency responders should there be some situation in the next community or in the canyon below. (fighter jets from the nearby military base have crashed in the canyons and on homes in the area (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/apr/22/bn22pilot10838/?military&zIndex=86643)) This is the ONLY north south road at this point, except for nearby parallel freeways. There are canyons that this road has to cross that are visible in the map below. The debate has centered around putting in a new bridge at the area indicated with the dashed blue line in the map... it was planned and was indicated long ago, and there is road on either side of the canyon leading up to the bridge site, but there is no bridge, thus the road in the pictures is the ONLY road through, for cyclists.

If you don't take the lane, you will be cut off by aggressive motorists that try to squeeze ahead from that soon ending far right lane.

(Oh BTW... take note in the second photo the movement of the SUV caught by the Google camera... typical clueless motorist behaviour. :notamused: )

the few of you that think cars start up faster at intersections need to get your act together. I generally don't filter to the front, but motorists annoy the heck out of me at lights by how slow they are to react. I'm not asking for lighting fast reflexes, but I swear there are glaciers that move faster.

Personally, I'd rather have cars move more slowly off stops, whether in a car or on a bike. It makes things safer for everyone.

Here's a diagram from a government approved bike instruction manual that may describe the possible intention of the cyclist (it would be the #3 option - proceed as if you were coming from the right)

http://www.bikesense.bc.ca/images/pg16traffic.jpg



Exactly... it is literally an "approved" move.

if we want cars to see us as cars

I've failed at getting anyone to think my bike is a car. I've settled on being accepted as a driver of a vehicle with all the same rights as drivers of other vehicles.


Wouldn't have made such an impression on me except there's already been someone killed on this same road this year. Cars aren't looking for people to begin with, and then to see some bikers cutting corners so-to-speak, just makes me cringe when we're still so new into the season yet.

And how was this other cyclist killed? I doubt it had anything to do with stopping in front of stopped traffic.

Personally, I probably would have made the right then a u-turn if I was unable to merge to make a standard left turn. However, I have been on roads where the next available spot for a u-turn was 1/2 mile up the road and required the same merge as the road I was on. If I had to choose between the "straight + 90" or the "right + 1/2 mile + merge then u + 1/2 mile" I might find myself doing exactly what this guy did. I certainly would not have planted myself in the right turn lane nor would I have put myself near the lane line (assuming a typical 10-12 foot lane) as that would make things really awkward as traffic got moving (yet I very often see cyclists do just that).

And who's to say that the cyclist didn't move off to the right (assuming a shoulder/bike lane/wide lane) after crossing the intersection, resulting in a delay of maybe 1-2 second for the other traffic? I think you really blew this one out of proportion.

From my visualization of the maneuver, based on the OP’s description, this individual is the poster child for cyclists whose exaggerated sense of self-entitlement creates animosity toward the rest of us.

The cyclist had three viable choices for executing a left turn at the intersection:

1. Make a vehicular left turn

2. Make a pedestrian left turn, travelling past the line of vehicles waiting to his right, positioning himself at the corner, and waiting for the signal to change

3. Make a right turn before coming alongside the line of vehicles, then a U-turn where appropriate/legal to come up in line behind or to the right of the waiting procession.

Instead, he butted in right at the front of the line, clearly violating all the waiting motorists’ rights-of-way. This arrogant, selfish, and childish behavior erodes respect toward those of us who try to ride like grown-ups.

Are there cyclists out there who do this routinely and I'm just not used to seeing it,:

It happens very often and much more often than you could possibly imagine. If you followed cyclists at random you'd find they violate traffic laws at a very high frequency.

The right hand lane does merge within about 100 feet of the other side of the intersection... right where there is a bus stop. The bike lane does end however on the north side of the intersection. (Huge "liability problem?")


Ok I get it now. The bike lane should be marked or signed "Bike Lane Ends" prior to the intersection. The right through lane (not the turn lane) should also have some warning "Lane Ends Ahead - Merge Left".

As for the rush hour bottleneck, it seems to me that eliminating on-street parking beyond this intersection and continueing the third lane would help immensely. The apartment residents wouldn't like it.

this sounds like something similar to what I do at times, especially at one intersection where if there are no cars in the left hand turn lane, it is hard to trigger the signal (especially after repaving so I can't see where the wires are)

I continue across the intersetion (west direction) in the bike lane and then once all the way acrros the intersection, stop and turn 90 degrees left, facing south.

this is a standard, safe, legal procedure (and if anyone know my posts..I am not a red light running type).

It sounds like the only insanity is the observed bicylist getting in front of the cars. In my case a I don't do that....i might be in front or beside anothe bicylist in the southbound bike lane.

Whether to get in front of or beside the line of waiting southbound cars would depend on the intersection, width of road, etc. but the general move is cool

Ok I get it now. The bike lane should be marked or signed "Bike Lane Ends" prior to the intersection. The right through lane (not the turn lane) should also have some warning "Lane Ends Ahead - Merge Left".



The city has a funny way of telling us cyclists that a bike lane ends... they do it one of two ways... either you see a big Share the Road sign or a Bike Route sign... both mean nothing to motorists with whom you are about to Share the Road; and to cyclists those signs mean... "you'd best take the lane, cause we ran outta room for 4 feet and a stripe."

As far as the right lane ending... there may be a sign, I didn't see one in google earth, but it can be easily overlooked.

BTW as I went down the road in google earth, the SUV I mentioned in my earlier post zooms across the road from the far right lane to the position we see in the pic I offered... from the far right, all the way to the left turn lane... in a swoop move. (idiot) He did this obviously right in front of the google car which captured it for all google earth users to see. :innocent:

As long as this thread is about making left turns... check out the idiot motorist that was captured on google earth making a bad left turn. (see pic below




As for the rush hour bottleneck, it seems to me that eliminating on-street parking beyond this intersection and continuing the third lane would help immensely. The apartment residents wouldn't like it.

The problem is a bridge just beyond the parked cars that is only 2 lanes wide either side, so extending the three lanes would require rebuilding the bridge. Also further along this area is narrow as it is a cut in a canyon wall... and it would require moving major amounts of earth to make the road wider.

It would actually be far easier to add a new bridge to the road I mentioned in the pic with the blue dashed line... but the folks on either side of that break in the road (who live on the canyon) have been pretty vocal about putting a bridge through "their" canyon... never mind that a train runs through it. :rolleyes:

what the rider did was 100 percent A-OK. to the OP- DEAL WITH IT! If you're in your car complaining about bicyclist two step lefts, you're not part of the cyclist team, you're part of the motor pool angry at bicyclists.
This is the sort of narrow-minded, "us-vs-them", "with us or against us" mentality that leads to the perception that all cyclists are elitist jerks, which in turn causes additional animosity between motorists and cyclists. :bang:

The cyclist is making a two part turn, he stops in the middle lane as a courtesy to the motorist in the right lane making a right turn on red. The cyclist can see the yellow light for cross traffic, gets ready to go, he gets his green light and starts his sprint across the intersection well ahead of the motorist and moves to the right lane well clear of the following traffic, without delaying anyone. So this cyclist is courteous to all, and for his trouble, he gets other (less capable) cyclist ragging on him.