Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - New bike blues

Hello

I was gifted a bike for my birthday, :love:trek 1.2. This is my first road bike, changing from a mtb commuter. While I know the bike is not the greatest, and have read reviews about the bike it self. I am having issues with the front derailleurs, which is a common complaint from the online reviews I have read.

Basically the front derailleur will not change to the granny chain ring on hills. Now on my MTB I can change gears easily for hills and have never stalled out. Both times I have rode this bike I have stalled out mid hill before getting it to switch.

I have brought this to the attention of my LBS where the bike was purchased. They told me there is a difference between MTB and road bikes and sounds like a technical problem. While I understand that the performance of a entry level bike and a high bike should be different. I am having issues with a bike not working just because it is at the entry level.:eek:

I also have no problem with upgrading components over time, but again just figured a bike could do a 1000 miles before replacements started.:notamused:

So now I am confused weather the issue is with me, or the components of the bike. I am taking the bike to the store in the morning and am fishing for options.:D

Thanks for your time

It should shift quickly and reliably to the small ring. My guess is that the cable or derailleur positioning is a little out of adjustment which is not uncommon on new bikes. The cables frequently stretch or seat themselves a little when first used and need readjustment. Hope the LBS can get it working properly for you when you bring it in.

Hello

I was gifted a bike for my birthday, :love:trek 1.2. This is my first road bike, changing from a mtb commuter. While I know the bike is not the greatest, and have read reviews about the bike it self. I am having issues with the front derailleurs, which is a common complaint from the online reviews I have read.

Basically the front derailleur will not change to the granny chain ring on hills. Now on my MTB I can change gears easily for hills and have never stalled out. Both times I have rode this bike I have stalled out mid hill before getting it to switch.

I have brought this to the attention of my LBS where the bike was purchased. They told me there is a difference between MTB and road bikes and sounds like a technical problem. While I understand that the performance of a entry level bike and a high bike should be different. I am having issues with a bike not working just because it is at the entry level.:eek:

I also have no problem with upgrading components over time, but again just figured a bike could do a 1000 miles before replacements started.:notamused:

So now I am confused weather the issue is with me, or the components of the bike. I am taking the bike to the store in the morning and am fishing for options.:D

Thanks for your time

Front dérailleurs typically don't like to shift under high load, because the front dérailleur is on the load side of the chain, where the rear dérailleur is on the non-load side of the chain. You should ease up on pedalling before shifting the front, this also applies to your mountain bike, but because mountain bikes tend to have lower overall gearing, the amount of load is less, so it may work, where the load is higher on a taller geared road bike. When you start up a hill, shift the front before you get very far and shift up the rear a couple of gears, then you can down shift on the way up the hill on the rear without worrying about the front.

Cables on a new bike tend to seat in the first few rides, and this can result in it not wanting to shift because the cable is effectively longer, this is often erroneously referred to as cable stretch, although the forces to actually stretch a metal cable are many times higher then the forces found on bicycles.

So I'll take it in I have only been on one ride with it so far, since I am not using it to commute. I'll try to ease up on the peddling that was mentioned, there is a hill I can use as an alternate hill, which is one that I have stalled on.
Thanks:)

Anytime I shift I bring my torque down to about 10% of my normal energy level. I think my bike likes it.

When you start up a hill, shift the front before you get very far and shift up the rear a couple of gears, then you can down shift on the way up the hill on the rear without worrying about the front.

You want to downshift going up a hill a bit before you actually need to so you don't put too much force on the chain as it's switching chain rings. It will wear out the drive train prematurely. Never shift gears when you're actually standing on the pedals (you didn't say you were doing this, I'm just using it to illustrate a point). Sounds like you need a simple adjustment on the front derailleur.

The bottom line is, a bike should shift gears easily, no matter if it's a road bike or a mountain bike. Take it back to the LBS and don't take no for an answer.

I always put a few drops of lube in the front & rear derailleur cables, makes it shift like a dream.

For clarification

I am trying to shift the chain ring at the base of the hill, especially if not a rolling hill situation. The problem is when i hit the shifter, nothing happens, push again and still nothing. I am trying to do this until it stalls out on the hill. At which point I am practically standing, and than it changes. With a clang. I can change from the the middle to the small chain ring just fine. I can not change from the largest to a smaller chain ring at all, until I stall out, and reef the bike. Which is the frustrating part. I'll have them look at the chain ring. Other than this, the bike is fun, and much faster than my mtb. My first ride was a 62 mile jaunt in the country. Sorry I am just getting frustrated with this issues:(

I agree with the others, a derailleur adjustment is probably all you need. It sounds to me like the sudden changes of tension on the chain are forcing the derailleur to move those couple extra millimeters to let the chain shift position. After it does shift do you hear the sound of the chain rubbing the derailleur?

Have:innocent not really paid attention to that. :innocent: Still trying to get use to the drop bars, and sti shifters. and the whole new set up. I plan on taking it in and seeing what they can do. My regular mechanic will be there tomorrow which always helps. I have gone to this shop for the last 3 years and they do all the maintenance on my mtb so ill see how it goes.

Thanks

If "gifted" bike isn't warranteed for you, and new parts are required, consider upgrading to a 105. FD new is $30-something online. 10 minutes to replace. Brifter is a lot more, and that could be the troublemaker, but often people will upgrade serviceable units to trim weight, e.g. Ultegra to Dura-Ace, or they switch to SRAM, so ebay and craigslist can have some good deals on used.

Or you can go to bar-end cheap, and if it looks a little funky, so what? It's not like you'd be defiling a madone. You just want to ride and get the downshift without stalling.

If "gifted" bike isn't warranteed for you, and new parts are required, consider upgrading to a 105. FD new is $30-something online. 10 minutes to replace. Brifter is a lot more, and that could be the troublemaker, but often people will upgrade serviceable units to trim weight, e.g. Ultegra to Dura-Ace, or they switch to SRAM, so ebay and craigslist can have some good deals on used.

Or you can go to bar-end cheap, and if it looks a little funky, so what? It's not like you'd be defiling a madone. You just want to ride and get the downshift without stalling.

My guess is you have a Sora FD. If so a cheaper yet still effective upgrade is a Tiagra FD. Not a s spiffy as a 105, but a definate improvement over the Sora FD. The Sora RD's seem to be OK but I know lot's of people who have had trouble keeping a Sora FD in adjustment.

You could always give it a whirl yourself and take it to the lbs later if needed. I like this fellow because his tutorials are easy to follow: http://bicycletutor.com/adjust-front-derailer/

Next time you get a chance at home take a screw driver and look for the little two phillips head screws on the top of your derailleur. Look for the one that has a little "-" on it and give it a half turn. If you pay attention to the derailleur you will notice that it moved a little close to the frame. This should solve your problematic shifting unless the cage is bent. No big deal :thumb:

I had the exact same problem when I had my 1.2. I'm pretty mechanically inclined so I read the tutorials and tried adjusting it myself. No luck. So I took it back to the LBS and had them try. No luck. Occasionally it would shift into all three rings without a problem but then it would suddenly stop working. I had other issues with the bike (including the fit) and the lbs let me upgrade to a CAAD9 after 2 weeks of issues with the bike. My guess is that it has more to do with the Shimano 2203 Brifters than it does with the derailleur. The 2200 series stuff is the absolute lowest on their lineup and I'm disappointed that Trek would use it on a $650+ bike when others use Sora or even Tiagra at the same price point. The Tiagra on my CAAD9 has performed flawlessly. Mine may have been a freak case though so definitely take it to the shop and see what they can do for you.

My wife had trouble with the FD on her new road bike when we got it last year and it had a 105 FD. I took it in a few times and they "fixed it". She'd ride it and it wasn't fixed. Finally rode the bikes over there and had them work on it. After a few cycles of mechanic adjusting it and her riding it to confirm it still wasn't right, the decided there was a porblem with the FD. They slapped as new Ultegra FD on and it has shifted perfectly since. Sometimes you just need to be a PITA to get it resolved.

Cables on a new bike tend to seat in the first few rides, and this can result in it not wanting to shift because the cable is effectively longer, this is often erroneously referred to as cable stretch, although the forces to actually stretch a metal cable are many times higher then the forces found on bicycles.

The cable is stretching, in that it is getting longer but that's because it is unwinding. But a 'stretched' cable would result in difficult upshifts not in downshifts. I suspect that timmythology has a misaligned derailer and/or an improperly set low gear limit screw. Take a look, timmythology, at the front derailer. The outer plate should be parallel to the chain rings. If it is angled out towards your foot, it needs to be straightened out by loosening the clamp and twisting the derailer on the seat tube. Sometimes the clamping bolt isn't tighten sufficiently which allows the derailer to move.

What Wogsterca says about shifting is spot on. Think of how you shift when you mountain bike. You probably ease up on the pedals momentarily as the chain moves...or you should;)

So to follow up, I took it into the shop today. I am not very mechanically inclined, yet. They took time to adjust it. So three adjustments later I was convinced it was a user error.:innocent: The sora shifters have some thing called a trim. So I was not pushing down on the lever hard enough to trigger the derailleur, just the trimmer. Which made it seem not to work.

To say the least I was sheepish at the shop. Now that I know it is not china it seems to work better:love:. Now if the BF can just adjust the rain here today I would be happy.

The cable is stretching, in that it is getting longer but that's because it is unwinding. But a 'stretched' cable would result in difficult upshifts not in downshifts. I suspect that timmythology has a misaligned derailer and/or an improperly set low gear limit screw. Take a look, timmythology, at the front derailer. The outer plate should be parallel to the chain rings. If it is angled out towards your foot, it needs to be straightened out by loosening the clamp and twisting the derailer on the seat tube. Sometimes the clamping bolt isn't tighten sufficiently which allows the derailer to move.

What Wogsterca says about shifting is spot on. Think of how you shift when you mountain bike. You probably ease up on the pedals momentarily as the chain moves...or you should;)

Your theory on cable stretching is incorrect, the amount of pressure needed to actually stretch a metal bicycle cable is (IIRC) many, many times over what the average person could apply even in panic braking. What actually happens is seating in, if you look at a bicycle cable you have various housings, but these are not solid end to end, instead there are several housing stops, there are 2 lengths of housing on a front dérailleur (FD). one runs from the shifter to the down tube, another from the bottom bracket area to the FD, alhough some FD's are cabled from the bottom and this housing is missing. When a cable is first installed, ferrels (little metal caps) are sometimes put on the ends, and these fit into the cable stops. Initially it's a kind of lose fit between the cable housing, ferrel and cable stop, with use they tighten into place, the over all length of the housing then gets shorter, making the cable effectively longer. The difference is enough to cause indexed shifting to not work properly.

Inexperienced cyclists will often take the bicycle to a shop for adjustment, experienced cyclists learn how to adjust it themselves. On some shifters and many dérailleurs there is an adjusting barrel, this is basically a hollow bolt that fits into a threaded nut attached to the end of a cable stop, with the cable going through it. If you unscrew this bolt slightly, say a quarter turn, it effectively lengthens the housing and shortens the cable to compensate. A new cable or housing will often mean needing this adjustment after a short while, as will replacing a shifter or dérailleur.

If it's under warrantee, don't accept anything that isn't right. Even if they have to get the manufacturer involved.

There are laws of merchantability involved here. It MUST work the way it was designed, and do what it is supposed to do.

Don't accept less!

Your theory on cable stretching is incorrect, the amount of pressure needed to actually stretch a metal bicycle cable is (IIRC) many, many times over what the average person could apply even in panic braking. What actually happens is seating in, if you look at a bicycle cable you have various housings, but these are not solid end to end, instead there are several housing stops, there are 2 lengths of housing on a front dérailleur (FD). one runs from the shifter to the down tube, another from the bottom bracket area to the FD, alhough some FD's are cabled from the bottom and this housing is missing. When a cable is first installed, ferrels (little metal caps) are sometimes put on the ends, and these fit into the cable stops. Initially it's a kind of lose fit between the cable housing, ferrel and cable stop, with use they tighten into place, the over all length of the housing then gets shorter, making the cable effectively longer. The difference is enough to cause indexed shifting to not work properly.

Inexperienced cyclists will often take the bicycle to a shop for adjustment, experienced cyclists learn how to adjust it themselves. On some shifters and many dérailleurs there is an adjusting barrel, this is basically a hollow bolt that fits into a threaded nut attached to the end of a cable stop, with the cable going through it. If you unscrew this bolt slightly, say a quarter turn, it effectively lengthens the housing and shortens the cable to compensate. A new cable or housing will often mean needing this adjustment after a short while, as will replacing a shifter or dérailleur.

A cable will lengthen whether or not ferules are used on the cable housing ends. I'll agree that the individual strands of the cable aren't lengthening due to the ductility of metal. However, the cable is 'stretching' or lengthing because it is a wound wire product that is unwinding slightly with each use. As you pull on it, each of the strands will move slightly in relation to the other strands until the reach an equilibrium. You can get a jump on this process by putting pressure on the cable with the shifters without moving the derailers.

I don't think your idea that ferrules are responsible for the problem is valid. You'll have the same problem if you don't use ferules or if you use nonswaged ferrules on the cable housing. If the bike uses swaged housing ends, they might move a little but not much. I use a slip fit ferrule and still have to make adjustments to the derailer.

Continuous adjustment is always needed, although not as much is needed as the cable ages. The cable housing and the ferrules are going to reach a point where they won't move any more while the cable will continue to unwind throughout its whole life span.

A cable will lengthen whether or not ferules are used on the cable housing ends. I'll agree that the individual strands of the cable aren't lengthening due to the ductility of metal. However, the cable is 'stretching' or lengthing because it is a wound wire product that is unwinding slightly with each use. As you pull on it, each of the strands will move slightly in relation to the other strands until the reach an equilibrium. You can get a jump on this process by putting pressure on the cable with the shifters without moving the derailers.

I don't think your idea that ferrules are responsible for the problem is valid. You'll have the same problem if you don't use ferules or if you use nonswaged ferrules on the cable housing. If the bike uses swaged housing ends, they might move a little but not much. I use a slip fit ferrule and still have to make adjustments to the derailer.

Continuous adjustment is always needed, although not as much is needed as the cable ages. The cable housing and the ferrules are going to reach a point where they won't move any more while the cable will continue to unwind throughout its whole life span.

I;m not an expert in this area, but I would think that a cable unwinding over time, does not make sense. There are a couple of reasons for this.

1) Cables are wound so that stress causes the winding to tighten, not loosen, there are limits to how much this can occur with a given amount of stress.
2) It would take a lot of stress to do this sufficiently to cause a change in length, far more then you get within the shifting mechanism of a bicycle. The fact that the length of the cable is a relative constant is why indexed shifting actually works.
3) Unwinding would cause the cable to overall get shorter, not longer, which is the opposite effect to what your claiming.

Ferrels and housings causing this isn't my idea, I think I read it on Sheldon Browns site one time.

I;m not an expert in this area, but I would think that a cable unwinding over time, does not make sense. There are a couple of reasons for this.

1) Cables are wound so that stress causes the winding to tighten, not loosen, there are limits to how much this can occur with a given amount of stress.
2) It would take a lot of stress to do this sufficiently to cause a change in length, far more then you get within the shifting mechanism of a bicycle. The fact that the length of the cable is a relative constant is why indexed shifting actually works.
3) Unwinding would cause the cable to overall get shorter, not longer, which is the opposite effect to what your claiming.

Ferrels and housings causing this isn't my idea, I think I read it on Sheldon Browns site one time.

1. Think of the individual strands in the cable. Each time tighten the cable, the strands move relative to each other. It's a small amount but it can add up. Curves in the cable can also cause parts of the cable to move more relative to the other strands in the curve. Eventually, the strands will settle in and stop moving as much but the twist is always there. Thus you have to make periodic adjustments.

2. Index shifting is very precise. Even a little extra length of the cable can cause issues with the positioning of the derailer. Failure to be within the tolerances of movement on the derailer is what causes slow shifting. Every new bike will need an adjustment to the cable to bring it back into proper adjustment. And you'll have to fiddle with it regularly to keep it working properly. The rear will always go out of adjustment first since you use it more than the front.

3. Again think of the strands. If the strands are moving relative to each other, they will twist in tighter and make a smaller curve around the core. A smaller curve means a slightly longer length and the derailer goes out of adjustment.

I'm not saying that the individual strands lengthen. Perhaps it's even wrong to call it 'unwinding'. The strands are tightening relative to each other and making a slightly smaller diameter inner cable. It's the bedding process you are talking about but it happens on the inner cable, not the outer one. You can change the inner cable...leaving the old outer cables on the bike...and you'll see the same issues with having to adjust the derailers.

1. Think of the individual strands in the cable. Each time tighten the cable, the strands move relative to each other. It's a small amount but it can add up. Curves in the cable can also cause parts of the cable to move more relative to the other strands in the curve. Eventually, the strands will settle in and stop moving as much but the twist is always there. Thus you have to make periodic adjustments.

2. Index shifting is very precise. Even a little extra length of the cable can cause issues with the positioning of the derailer. Failure to be within the tolerances of movement on the derailer is what causes slow shifting. Every new bike will need an adjustment to the cable to bring it back into proper adjustment. And you'll have to fiddle with it regularly to keep it working properly. The rear will always go out of adjustment first since you use it more than the front.

3. Again think of the strands. If the strands are moving relative to each other, they will twist in tighter and make a smaller curve around the core. A smaller curve means a slightly longer length and the derailer goes out of adjustment.

I'm not saying that the individual strands lengthen. Perhaps it's even wrong to call it 'unwinding'. The strands are tightening relative to each other and making a slightly smaller diameter inner cable. It's the bedding process you are talking about but it happens on the inner cable, not the outer one. You can change the inner cable...leaving the old outer cables on the bike...and you'll see the same issues with having to adjust the derailers.

The amount of movement within strands of a bicycle cable are very small, probably on the order of several micrometers per meter of cable, this is because the stress on the cable is very slight, just enough to overcome the dérailleur spring. Considering that I can operate a trigger shifter on my mountain bike with my gimpy left hand, we probably talking less then 5kg of force. To actually deform the cable takes much more force, on the order of 500kg or more. This is more likely in braking where precision is less obvious, and pad wear accounts for a much larger difference then cable deformation.

Bedding in isn't the inner or outer cable it's the difference between the two, which is why you often see the term effective length, It can take a long time for a dérailleur cable to fully bed in, because the forces are so slight. Other things can cause issues as well though, wear on the dérailleur spring, friction between the cable and housing, and the stops, damaged cable, damaged housing. With a brand new bicycle and brand new cables, the most likely cause is the cables and housing seating in, so it needs adjusting every once in a while for the first year or so.

The amount of movement within strands of a bicycle cable are very small, probably on the order of several micrometers per meter of cable, this is because the stress on the cable is very slight, just enough to overcome the dérailleur spring. Considering that I can operate a trigger shifter on my mountain bike with my gimpy left hand, we probably talking less then 5kg of force. To actually deform the cable takes much more force, on the order of 500kg or more. This is more likely in braking where precision is less obvious, and pad wear accounts for a much larger difference then cable deformation.

Bedding in isn't the inner or outer cable it's the difference between the two, which is why you often see the term effective length, It can take a long time for a dérailleur cable to fully bed in, because the forces are so slight. Other things can cause issues as well though, wear on the dérailleur spring, friction between the cable and housing, and the stops, damaged cable, damaged housing. With a brand new bicycle and brand new cables, the most likely cause is the cables and housing seating in, so it needs adjusting every once in a while for the first year or so.

Although I don't have numbers on the deformation of the inner cable, I believe it is more than you think. I can't find the discussion I once read about cable elongation to back up what I've been saying but everyone and his bother talk about cable stretch and the problems it causes in derailer adjustment. Even Sheldon Brown. Here's what he has to say about an old Huret derailer

Their best-known model was the "Alvit", introduced around 1960. The Alvit was the first inexpensive parallelogram-type derailer, and hundreds of thousands of them were sold through the mid 1970s. Most Schwinn Varsities used this model. The Alvit was a very sturdy unit, well made and reliable. Its parallelogram was pivoted on bolts that could be adjusted, unlike the rivets used in most derailers. The orientation of the parallelogram permitted the jockey pulley to track the cluster more closely than most derailers of its time. Unfortunately, the Alvit had a very strong return spring, which caused cable stretch to be excessive, degrading shifting performance. The strong spring also tended to lead to rapid wear and failure of shift cables.


The shorter travel came with higher tension, and these two factors exacerbated issues of cable friction and stretch. As Shimano also discovered, a key to good indexing is long-travel, low-tension cable setups. Shimano also made a mis-step with this: their original 1984 Dura-Ace S.I.S. system used a fairly short cable travel, requiring unusually high degrees of precision in associated parts. When they "trickled down" S.I.S. to the 600EX group in 1986, they went with a longer cable travel, which became the standard for the rest of the Shimano line. This led to a decade of incompatibility between Dura-Ace and the rest of the Shimano line, only resolved in 1997 when Dura-Ace went to 9-speed and lengthened the cable travel to match the rest of the line.

So to follow up, I took it into the shop today. I am not very mechanically inclined, yet. They took time to adjust it. So three adjustments later I was convinced it was a user error.:innocent: The sora shifters have some thing called a trim. So I was not pushing down on the lever hard enough to trigger the derailleur, just the trimmer. Which made it seem not to work.

To say the least I was sheepish at the shop. Now that I know it is not china it seems to work better:love:. Now if the BF can just adjust the rain here today I would be happy.

Sora shifters don't have a trim option from what i understand. Perhaps it is different for a triple than a double but soras don't have trim option.

The 3 x 8 Soras on my commuter do not have a trim. Perhaps they added it to the newer version (mine's '07).