Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - First 600k and looking for advise

Thanks. Unfortunately, I can't read Scandinavian :-)


Neither can I but Google translation works adequately well. Even monolingual me can find Trondheim Oslo results in four clicks <Trondheim Oslo tab> <Les mer, Resultater> <Pick a year> <Then use the drop down boxes for distance, category and timing point>.

Not withstanding these results, completing a 600 brevet in under 24 hours is fairly rare and in hilly areas, even rarer.

In the mid west there have been a dozen or more finishes in the 20-25 hours range. I've completed 600ks at three different venues -all at less than 30 hours.

Pretty weird thread. Brevet riding - just to finish - is hardly an "extreme" event. Although, I guess for some one over weight at a hilly venue - or of course, riding through a tornado - I guess one could consider the need for medical intervention.....

Over the last decade, the second-best time in Seattle was 24-1/2 hours. There were several few finishes in the 25 to 30 hour range. In DC, the fastest 600K finish since 1993 was 25h57m.

Since SIR and DC Randonneurs are two of the biggest and oldest rando clubs in the country, it seems unlikely that their fastest members over the last decade are somehow shockingly slower than people in the midwest. And as Octopus mentions, Ohio Randonneurs (who I know ride tough brevets in the unglaciated portion of southeast Ohio) do not finish 600K's in less than 28 hours.

Therefore, I'd find it hard not to conclude that you finish 600K's fast in the midwest because your glaciated terrain is easier than the terrain in either the Seattle area or the DC area or southeast Ohio.

Having grown up in central Ohio, I spent many hours riding on glaciated terrain, and can say from personal experience that it's a lot easier to ride where there aren't any significant elevation changes. I never rode in southeast Ohio, but I did a lot of hiking there, and it is ceaseless up and down.

Since the OP is riding a 600K in Tennessee, where the elevation change is reputedly higher than on the DC 600's, I think that statistics from glaciated areas are probably not all that useful.

Neither can I but Google translation works adequately well. Even monolingual me can find Trondheim Oslo results in four clicks <Trondheim Oslo tab> <Les mer, Resultater> <Pick a year> <Then use the drop down boxes for distance, category and timing point>.

Not withstanding these results, completing a 600 brevet in under 24 hours is fairly rare and in hilly areas, even rarer.

are these supported teams running full steam with a car up the road or following? are checkpoints / brevet cards having to be signed a requirement? they probably aren't 'self' supported in the rando sense...


surely, the times listed in the results are impressive.
it looks like there is some terrain to deal with - i'd love to see an elevation plot. the data i get back from a hypotehtical route on bikeroutetoaster is useless, with data having hit some cutoff point...

GoogleEarth shows that it looks rolling, again on a theoretical route that I plugged in - certainly not as mountainous as some routes in VT or the southern Appalachians... and the main roads seem to follow the river valleys.

Not to dismiss the riders or the efforts - but until I know more about the ride or race, I'd say we are comparing apples and oranges.

Yes it is apples and oranges. I was completely wasted after doing 2007 PBP in 66:26 without support and felt just fine after doing Trondheim Oslo in 16:52. We were a large group and had someone arrange the foodstops ahead. No cards to be stamped.
http://www.cyclopedia.no/ShowProfile.aspx?id=24&width=400&height=150
10990 feeet total elevation

Having grown up in central Ohio, I spent many hours riding on glaciated terrain, and can say from personal experience that it's a lot easier to ride where there aren't any significant elevation changes. I never rode in southeast Ohio, but I did a lot of hiking there, and it is ceaseless up and down.

Either we're weak here or our terrain is tougher than in many other places. Having ridden brevets all over the country, and seeing as how our '07 PBP finish rate was better than average (and better than SIR!), I'm inclined toward the latter explanation. I invite all randonneurs to come check out the little hills we have here in Southern Ohio (and those that our good friends have in Kentucky, too). Sure, they're only 200-300 feet, top-to-bottom, max.... But no one here would blink at a pitch in the teens. Not worth talking about. The rubber doesn't hit the road until you see a grade that averages over 20% for a third of a mile on the second day of a 1000K, on a road that some would not consider to be "paved." 20,000 feet of climbing on a 600K is pretty friggin tough when you have to do it 200 feet at a time, over and over, on bad roads with junkyard dogs chasing you.

And when you're not in the hills, you're in the wind. My fleche team this year included a RAAM solo veteran and we'd ridden eight 1200Ks between the four of us. Our group of Ohio randonneurs had to work hard to maintain 10mph into the wind. For hours.

We're tough s.o.b.'s, and so are our routes. Come ride with us sometime!

Edited to add:
As for the OP, I rode the 200K in TN this February (the second one, later in the month). That route had 8,400 of climbing on it, as measured by my GPS. I though it was tough. Not the toughest I'd ever done, but definitely up there. I rode with the RBA for a bit and as we rode he described the 600K you're attempting in terms that made it sound much more challenging on a per-mile basis than the little 200K we were doing that rainy and cold Saturday.... If that's the case, I think you're probably in for one of the more challenging 600Ks in the country. A heck of an accomplishment, if you pull it off. Best of luck.

Yes it is apples and oranges. I was completely wasted after doing 2007 PBP in 66:26 without support and felt just fine after doing Trondheim Oslo in 16:52. We were a large group and had someone arrange the foodstops ahead. No cards to be stamped.
http://www.cyclopedia.no/ShowProfile.aspx?id=24&width=400&height=150
10990 feeet total elevation

thanks... that is 1/3 or 1/2 the gain on the Boston 600k (depending on how you track it). You were finished by the time I got to the sleep control.

I invite all randonneurs to come check out the little hills we have here in Southern Ohio (and those that our good friends have in Kentucky, too). Sure, they're only 200-300 feet, top-to-bottom, max.... But no one here would blink at a pitch in the teens. Not worth talking about. The rubber doesn't hit the road until you see a grade that averages over 20% for a third of a mile on the second day of a 1000K, on a road that some would not consider to be "paved." 20,000 feet of climbing on a 600K is pretty friggin tough when you have to do it 200 feet at a time, over and over, on bad roads with junkyard dogs chasing you.

And when you're not in the hills, you're in the wind. My fleche team this year included a RAAM solo veteran and we'd ridden eight 1200Ks between the four of us. Our group of Ohio randonneurs had to work hard to maintain 10mph into the wind. For hours.

We're tough s.o.b.'s, and so are our routes. Come ride with us sometime!



while those 200 foot hills do sound quite terrifying, you should come out here and play in some real mountains some time!

oh, and we have wind & dogs as well, so you'll feel right at home. =]

while those 200 foot hills do sound quite terrifying, you should come out here and play in some real mountains some time!

oh, and we have wind & dogs as well, so you'll feel right at home. =]

I have! Spent a wonderful year riding with the Oregon Randonneurs, and my '08 fleche took us over the Cascades twice (Santiam Pass). Mrs. O and I took the tandem up Mackenzie Pass one wonderful (dry!) weekend after the road closed. And we had the chance to ride single bikes up to Paradise (from the West) a few years ago. Wonderful scenery, but your road surfaces are too nice, your drivers are too polite, and your dogs don't have rabbies and redneck owners (yes, I have been to Centralia, WA, and no, to a southern boy those folks ain't rednecks ;)). I will say that the Oregon Coast can have one sun-of-a-gun wind blowing, especially in the winter.

while those 200 foot hills do sound quite terrifying, you should come out here and play in some real mountains some time!

oh, and we have wind & dogs as well, so you'll feel right at home. =]

cue the east coast vs. west coast climbing debate...

cue the east coast vs. west coast climbing debate...

I think we can look at hills as a parent looks at their own children. Each one is a pain in the ass in their own unique and special way.

I think we can look at hills as a parent looks at their own children. Each one is a pain in the ass in their own unique and special way.

but they are always really cute in photos...

Just for comparison, the normal amount of climbing for British brevets is 1000 m per 100 km, so 6000 m for a 600 km brevet. The absolute minimum necessary for a 600 to be listed on the Audax Altitude award is 7000 m and 1:5 and 1:4 grades are not rare.

http://www.aukweb.net/aaa/index.htm

are checkpoints / brevet cards having to be signed a requirement? they probably aren't 'self' supported in the rando sense...


Brevets cards don't take very long to fill in and I've done quite a few brevets that aren't self-supported but still comply with the rules. Other factors are more important, including grades and riding companions.

A question for randochap -- you mentioned that there is a club waiver and an event waiver -- I have been riding mostly in the U.S. but did ride a brevet a couple of weeks ago in Ontario Canada -- I didn't have to sign an event waiver since I had already signed the Ontario Randonneurs waiver. In the U.S. I always have to sign an event waiver.

Lwab -- the 1km climbing per 100km ridden is also a general minimum for brevets in the Northeast US. From what I've seen posted for rides from other clubs in North America, that ratio seems to be a common one across most brevet clubs that are suited to the geography.

Brevets cards don't take very long to fill in and I've done quite a few brevets that aren't self-supported but still comply with the rules. Other factors are more important, including grades and riding companions.

yup.
but a team on a mission with a support car at the controls is very different from wandering into a mini mart and getting your card signed or picking up a receipt.

and having goodies laid out and ready for you to grab certainly is faster than foraging through your drop bag or scouring the control tent.

and yes, grade, wind, road - all more important i agree. 10000 feet of climbing over 540k is less than a typical brevet in the NE, which typically average 3000 feet per 100k.

the point was that we are comparing apples to oranges - in a thread that was somehow morphed from a newbie question about a 600k into a 'how fast can you go' thread.

the point was that we are comparing apples to oranges - in a thread that was somehow morphed from a newbie question about a 600k into a 'how fast can you go' thread. The guy isn't a newbie - he just admits he's light on "long road ride" experience.

As far as how fast anyone can go - some brevet locales invite riders to ride more slowly simply because the routes are more interesting and diverse in nature. Theoretical "toughness" of a brevet route is not the only determining factor as to why differing groups ride "hard or easy."

Nubcake mentions he might try a night ride. I suggest he schedule a ride late in the day and then ride "into darkness." Sunrises and sunsets are often the hardest portions of the day to ride through.

The guy isn't a newbie - he just admits he's light on "long road ride" experience.

As far as how fast anyone can go - some brevet locales invite riders to ride more slowly simply because the routes are more interesting and diverse in nature. Theoretical "toughness" of a brevet route is not the only determining factor as to why differing groups ride "hard or easy."

Nubcake mentions he might try a night ride. I suggest he schedule a ride late in the day and then ride "into darkness." Sunrises and sunsets are often the hardest portions of the day to ride through.

he's new to rando, from what i gather from this thread. and while i respect the racer boys that used to hang at my favorite shop, they would freely admit as to not know how to deal with courses approaching double century length and beyond. not saying this is the case here... but just like not all folks can ride fast, not all fast folks can ride long (nor do they want to...)

yes, everything is 'theoretical' - esp. on the bike forums, including your reputation for being the fastest, smartest, and friendliest fellow on two wheels. :thumb: :p

i just don't see how the reference to the euro ride was any comparison. why not point to some tour stages? supported racers blasting through a course is impressive. a 16 hour 540k for an average of 20.9 MPH? great! you riding a fast 600k somewhere (you didn't mention the course, terrain, weather, etc.) is also laudable and great... but from what we know this is someone attempting their first 600k in mountainous terrain... that is a different story.


what he could do is go hammer from dinner until midnight, in the toughest terrain he has nearby, with his limited lighting. then try to sleep for 2 or 3 hours just after getting off the bike - get up and repeat the hammering again, in the darkness and cold with little sleep. then figure how that will feel after 200-240 miles in the legs. multiply accordingly. etc. for terrain and length.

or he could take thebulls advice and ride a few longer rides as brevets to get some experience.

A question for randochap -- you mentioned that there is a club waiver and an event waiver -- I have been riding mostly in the U.S. but did ride a brevet a couple of weeks ago in Ontario Canada -- I didn't have to sign an event waiver since I had already signed the Ontario Randonneurs waiver. In the U.S. I always have to sign an event waiver.

What's the question? We have an event waiver in addition to the long waiver that forms part of the membership paperwork.

Sounds like Ontario Randonneurs, or at least that organizer, omits the event waiver.

Sorry, was not clear -- where are you doing Brevets in Canada where there is an event waiver ? This should not depend on the organizer.

Sorry, was not clear -- where are you doing Brevets in Canada where there is an event waiver ? This should not depend on the organizer.

The BC Randonneurs require an event waiver for each of the events that they run, and the Canadian brevet clubs do not have an umbrella organization like RUSA that mandates a nationwide policy for administration of rides.

Thanks. I was aware that there is not an umbrella organization. Nor does the concept of Permanent exist -- as I found out when three of us did a ride around Lake Superior last year. We could define Permanents for all the stages that started in the U.S. but not for Canada. Pity.

The McMinnville 600k is a monster, but it is also pretty manageable if you've trained for it and completed the rest of a series up to this point. The climbing is pretty impressive, most of it is found on the Skyway and you will spend a lot of time in your granny gear.

I rode it last year, finished it with only 22 minutes to spare. There are riders that will finish it in 31-33 hours. I'm either stupid or crazy enough to try it again this year, so I'll cya there!

One thing to consider with this ride is to take advantage of the rider assistance package. That will get you a drop bag at the Tellico Plains control (a set of cabins), and it will also get you food there as well. The Tellico Plains control is right at the 200k mark (before the climb up Deal's Gap and the Skyway) and again at the 400k mark (the route loops back around to this control after descending the Skyway).

With your drop bag there you can basically plan to attack this route as three 200k rides. The overnight portion comes for most riders during the middle 200k. It gets cold up on the skyway, so you could leave your extra layers in your drop bag, depending on the weather... and potentially minimize your load for most of the ride.

It's a challenging ride, very beautiful, and very rewarding.

I would love to make the 300k's but St. Louis is a really long drive for me and saturdays are nearly impossible to get off since I work at a shop and its our busiest day by far.

I like the idea of one of the permanents out of Pasquo though, any experience with either the Music City, or Natchez trace 200 milers? Which would be closer in terrain to the middle Tn 600k? I am going to do that and possibly try to ride from after work, through the night and into my mid week day off.

The Natchez Trace really doesn't have any sustained climbing on it. The upper portion near Pasquo is about as hilly as it gets. While it's beautiful riding and probably considered hilly by most folks it really isn't anything like what you'd find on the TN 400k and 600k routes.

Most of the climbs in the Eastern part of the state will be 1000-1500ft over 4-7 miles, some with fairly stiff grade in parts. I've walked up sections of many hills on our brevet series.

Thanks. I was aware that there is not an umbrella organization. Nor does the concept of Permanent exist -- as I found out when three of us did a ride around Lake Superior last year. We could define Permanents for all the stages that started in the U.S. but not for Canada. Pity.

We also have a permanents program ... with its own set of rules.

well, thanks again to everyone for the advise but it really sounds I should work my way up in distance. (not to mention their is a mtb 12 hour race the weekend after the 600k and like I said earlier, dirt almost always comes first)

I am going to focus on more and more long rides and shoot for the natchez trace 600k instead. It seems like the more logical route from this point.

There does not seem to be a Permanents program in Ontario.

On my 400k, I finished at 1:00 after 20 hours, and my legs felt good. The 600k has a stop at the 400k mark, and I am contemplating just continuing instead of stopping. Anyone have thoughts on that?.

On my 400k, I finished at 1:00 after 20 hours, and my legs felt good. The 600k has a stop at the 400k mark, and I am contemplating just continuing instead of stopping. Anyone have thoughts on that?.

I've done only one 600K riding straight through and didn't particularly enjoy the experience. I find with 3-5 hours of sleep I enjoy the ride much more. Riding at night is fine, but the next day is pretty rough. That said, the experience was on a very hilly route under challenging conditions (hot, windy, humid). On a easier route -- one I could finish easily in 30 hours or less -- I'd be tempted to ride straight through. The first 600K of the Last Chance in '05 was easily done without any significant stop and without affecting performance (or, more importantly, enjoyment) of the rest of the ride.

If you do plan to ride through (or to do any significant riding at night), it helps immensely to have riding companions. Time flies when you're chatting about whatever with someone, and it's a lot safer should someone have a mechanical, run over some nocturnal wildlife, whack an invisible pothole, or break a bolt on your two-bolt stem (I've checked all these boxes at night on brevets).

On my 400k, I finished at 1:00 after 20 hours, and my legs felt good. The 600k has a stop at the 400k mark, and I am contemplating just continuing instead of stopping. Anyone have thoughts on that?.

In PBP year, many of the DCR riders deliberately chose not to have a sleep stop on the 600K. The group I was riding with took a half-hour nap in a truck stop cafe. The other three years, I've gotten between an hour and a half or two hours of sleep in a bed. Not a whole lot of difference between those two methods, though I did need to have more short naps during the day on the PBP year 600.

In PBP year, many of the DCR riders deliberately chose not to have a sleep stop on the 600K.
That seems backwards to me, I would think that since sleeping is required for most people on PBP, you would want to "practice" first.

That seems backwards to me, I would think that since sleeping is required for most people on PBP, you would want to "practice" first.

I see your point, but having "practised" this on two prior 600's and on BMB, I thought it was important to push closer to the extremes of sleep deprivation that I expected to experience on PBP.

For most on PBP, they are starting at 10 pm or so. Sleeping beforehand is tough because of the excitement, though my buddy and I did take a couple of hour nap until about 3pm. So you start at the end of a regular day, and then many will try to make it to Loudeac, 280 miles, before sleeping. For me, that was 26 hours into the ride, which itself had started with two hours of standing in the stadium in the rain before my group was sent off at 11:45 pm. So, all told, I was awake from about 9 am on the day the ride started, with a 2 hour nap, until about 1am. the next day--a total of 40 hours with only 2 hours of sleep. At Loudeac, I still had 2-3/4 days of riding to go. The cumulative sleep deprivation on PBP makes it harder in that respect than BMB, though the terrain was easy by comparison.

thebulls makes an excellent point. It's not that you're riding 600K on PBP, it's that if you're doing the 90-hour start, you're going to be working on really crappy sleep and you're body is going to be all out of whack to boot, from missing a night's sleep.

...which, among other reasons (including one wave of riders, which leaves on time; no standing around!), is why the 84-hour start should be a serious consideration for many riders. If you're finishing 600s in the low-to-mid 30-hour range, including some time to sleep properly at night (in a bed for at least one REM cycle) and not feeling totally wasted at the end, then consider taking the 84-hour start. Instead of standing around in the rain and then riding all night, you're PBP looks like this: Stand around in the rain watching the 80-hour folks, the specials, and the first few waves of riders depart while eating pasteries and hanging out with friends; retire to hotel room; get a full night's sleep; start PBP at 0500; see the first day of the ride in daylight; arrive in Loudeac not all that long after you would have had you taken the 90-hour start because you're riding a heck of a lot faster, having been properly rested before the ride start and having ridden in daylight which means you travel quite a bit faster. Depending on what time you arrive in Loudeac and your goals, you can either then press on because, unlike being in the 90-hour group you're not yet sleep deprived, or you can sleep in Loudeac.