Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Balancing LD riding with racing

So as some of you know, i've been doing brevets for about a year now. But as you might not know, I just started racing a few weeks ago.

It seems like on one hand, I have the advantage of a huge base going into this. Last year pretty much all the riding I did could be categorized as LSD, or maybe tempo for the shorter rides. Meaning, I never did any kind of sprint practice, or god forbid intervals. Therefore my FTP (1-hour power) is decently high, whereas my 5-second power (sprints) suck.

But now my training has changed a bit, and I've started doing shorter-but-harder rides. Where I used to do my usual 50-mile easy ride on the weekends, now I do maybe 25 miles at a much harder pace (SST, or 85-90% of threshold). And I've also been doing a little bit of sprint work, e.g. tabattas.

Anyway, to the question(s). Do you think shifting my training towards racing could hurt my LD riding? Or just help it? I'll still be doing long rides, both as training and of course the actual brevets.

So if I focus more on short duration power (think <1 hour), it seems like on one hand that can only help the power after that hour. On the other hand, it seems like I can't have the best of both worlds, can I?

Anyone else know how to balance these two opposing spectrums of the cycling world?

Perhaps I'm just over thinking this...

Only 24 hours in my day.
Ride until you run out of time.

Only 24 hours in my day.
Ride until you run out of time.

i did the whole "just ride my bike" thing last year, this year is about more structured training.

and let's assume my time is limited, due to work/life outside of bikes.

maybe a better quesiton is "how can i focus my training so that i do well at both ends of the spectrum"?

Most riders that I talk to (that ride Fast short rides), don't have the time for LD rides.

I do both and have for a while. I don't do either particularly well, but I do think that racing has dramatically improved my distance riding -- both from a results- and enjoyment-oriented perspectices. I don't think that distance riding has done much of anything to make me a stronger racer (now years of daily commuting, espeically in Boston, imparted some cat-like reflexes and bike handling skills which are very useful in criteriums!).

Early in the year I tend to focus on the long stuff -- it's when the brevet season is and the weather is just crappy during our spring races. I'll do more USCF stuff starting middle of the summer through the fall. Because my focus is the longer rides, I tend to race very conservatively -- I won't contest primes or finish-line sprints. How dumb would I have felt had I been crashed out the week before PBP because I was trying to win a few bucks or a pair of socks? I initially got into racing as a way to get some good anaerobic work into my training and have stayed with it because it's a lot of fun.

So yes, they can be compatible. (In fact, I race and ride 1200Ks on the same bike!) To do both well probably does require some focused and specific training. I do remember seeing another thread on this here; try running some searches....

From what I know, unless you want to be competitive in both the road races and the brevets, your shorter-distance training ought to provide some benefit for the longer rides.

Keep in mind that at least part of the goal of your training is to be able to produce more power for longer periods of time without going anaerobic. I.e. you're trying to improve your overall endurance, not just a specific group of muscles. Since you've already done the longer rides, you should generally have the experience and mental aspects down pat anyway.

If you were doing track sprints, I'd say you might have a more serious conflict. ;)

Matt, you need to race your strengths not just train your weaknesses. That means hilly road races where you can make use of your FTP, not criteriums which come down to 1' and 5" power.


I tend to do intervals during the week and fun rides/races on the weekend. That way all of my cycling isn't devoted to training which can lead to burnout, and I still make steady gains in my wattage. You could do the same with intervals Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (maybe 1', sprints, 1') rest/off Monday and Friday and then long rides saturday and sunday. The idea of having a deep base is being able to recover quickly from workouts, so you can be able to do multiple days of intervals like that.

Also doing core work on a stability ball has been key for me on long rides. I started mid-march, did a 6 hour ride yesterday and my back has never felt fresher. It's really amazing what it can do for your comfort on the bike with only 45 minutes to an hour split up over three days a week.

Do you think shifting my training towards racing could hurt my LD riding? Or just help it?What do you mean? What's a "training shift?" What does it mean to "hurt" or "help" LD riding?

Some people are successful at training at diverse distances successfully. Usually this is because these people are coming from a training status substantially lower than their potential. As you near your potential for particular training adaptation it is likely that your adaptations in others area will be muted.

If in fact you were to actually attempting to "train" at brevet riding, while expecting increases functional ability for shorter distance, your long rides would require meticulous attention to intensity just a any set of Intervals or sprint/recovery sessions.

Most likely this isn't the case.







So if I focus more on short duration powerWhat's that mean? Either you are "focused" or you aren't.

Some people are successful at training at diverse distances successfully. Usually this is because these people are coming from a training status substantially lower than their potential. As you near your potential for particular training adaptation it is likely that your adaptations in others area will be muted.

Citation for this statement, please. Can you point us to a source for this? This is, in my experience, not the case at all. What makes you say this?

It seems to me that since the racing is competitive, and the brevet riding is not, you'd want to train for the racing. I assume you're making it through the longer rides with lots of time to spare, so even if you got a bit slower there, you'd still be okay.

So yes, they can be compatible. (In fact, I race and ride 1200Ks on the same bike!) To do both well probably does require some focused and specific training. I do remember seeing another thread on this here; try running some searches....

thanks Octopus, that's reassuring. i don't necessarily want to beat Jan in PBP or anything, just do better than I did last year. and ride farther than last year.

btw i don't really like searches, i like picking brains instead, and sparking a discussion while i'm at it. =]


From what I know, unless you want to be competitive in both the road races and the brevets, your shorter-distance training ought to provide some benefit for the longer rides.


again i'm glad to hear that it shouldn't necessarily hurt my brevet times. of course this depends on me keeping up with whatever LD 'training' i usually do, i assume.


Matt, you need to race your strengths not just train your weaknesses. That means hilly road races where you can make use of your FTP, not criteriums which come down to 1' and 5" power.

i can't wait for my first RR, but they don't happen as often as the crits do it seems. the local crit happens weekly and is 10 km from my house, so it works out.

so you don't think FTP comes into play as much during a 30-min crit? obviously not as much to win the thing, i guess i'm thinking of just hanging in the pack, which is all i've done so far in my race career. (a whole two races)


I tend to do intervals during the week and fun rides/races on the weekend. That way all of my cycling isn't devoted to training which can lead to burnout, and I still make steady gains in my wattage. You could do the same with intervals Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (maybe 1', sprints, 1') rest/off Monday and Friday and then long rides saturday and sunday. The idea of having a deep base is being able to recover quickly from workouts, so you can be able to do multiple days of intervals like that.

Also doing core work on a stability ball has been key for me on long rides. I started mid-march, did a 6 hour ride yesterday and my back has never felt fresher. It's really amazing what it can do for your comfort on the bike with only 45 minutes to an hour split up over three days a week.

yeah i do the same thing, since my shorter rides are usually on the weekdays. for core work, i've been playing the wii (fit) game now and then, which includes some yoga and other exercises.

What do you mean?

well if i never did 3-6 hour rides outside of brevets, don't you think that would hurt my brevet times overall? or are brevets enough training in themselves?


What does it mean to "hurt" or "help" LD riding?

by hurt i mean getting slower. in fact so slow perhaps i would be outside of controls.


What's that mean? Either you are "focused" or you aren't.

by focusing on 1-min power i mean actually doing 1-minute intervals, as opposed to measuring my efforts in terms of hours.


It seems to me that since the racing is competitive, and the brevet riding is not, you'd want to train for the racing. I assume you're making it through the longer rides with lots of time to spare, so even if you got a bit slower there, you'd still be okay.

funny thing is on the one 600k i completed last year, i made it with one minute to spare. so i've got some work to do in that area for sure. mostly in the area of time management off the bike.

thanks Octopus, that's reassuring. i don't necessarily want to beat Jan in PBP or anything, just do better than I did last year. and ride farther than last year.

hey, funny you should mention Jan. I think there was a Bike Quarterly issue a few months ago that discussed interval training in relation to long distance cycling, with Jan talking about how building strength can have some benefits to endurance riding, but that building strength is a much more ephemeral exercise than building endurance -- effort to build, easy to lose. Though, of course, he points out that one should be wary of mixing endurance and strength exercises. Either do long steady distance rides or do short intervals, but don't do both.

I also recall a couple of years ago, there was a particularly good thread on randon about building one's long steady distance speed, and there were some good points made about how the most efficient way to become faster is to climb better. (http://groups.google.com/group/randon/msg/292ac99cac3090a2)

this year, due to a compressed training schedule for VanIsle and a job change that cut my daily commute in half, I've been incorporating interval training and hill exercises into my weekly regimen to keep and build strength. In general, my overall brevet times haven't improved that much, but moving averages have gotten incrementally better and I feel a lot less wrecked at the end of a given event.

So, I think that some racing can help insofar as it helps one generate power for climbs and possibly helps one be a more efficient participant in a paceline (though pacelines in brevets tend to also be ephemeral affairs in my experience), but I don't race and can't tell you if there's a similar benefit exchange in the other direction.

On a side note: I'd be wary about thinking that if one has a year of randonneuring experience then they've got the experience and mental training 'down pat' ;) There's always something new to learn.

On a side note: I'd be wary about thinking that if one has a year of randonneuring experience then they've got the experience and mental training 'down pat' ;) There's always something new to learn.

i can only agree with this - i have much to learn, and i would posit that even anciens/anciennes still have something to learn.

i think it's safe to say you can never "master" LD bike riding - or bike riding in general. as that one racer once said, "it doesn't get easier, you just go faster."

or in my case it might be: "it doesn't get any easier, you just spend less time at controls"

a particularly good thread on randon about building one's long steady distance speed, and there were some good points made about how the most efficient way to become faster is to climb better. (http://groups.google.com/group/randon/msg/292ac99cac3090a2)

Thanks for that link.


On a side note: I'd be wary about thinking that if one has a year of randonneuring experience then they've got the experience and mental training 'down pat' ;) There's always something new to learn.

I can't think of many activities that isn't true of. Freestyle plummeting, maybe.

I don't race, but I enjoy hard, longish weekend rides. Getting one's butt kicked over a 70-100 mile distance is a big help in building speed-over-distance. Recommend Cascade GB rides. Several people ride to the ride so come on over to the east if that's what you do. Some SIR darksiders there. Might even help your crit performance. Late in the season now, though. Most rides are away.

an example of how racing can get in the way of brevets, or vice-versa: this weekend is a 400k brevet that i want to do. but the thursday before that is the next installment of the weekly crit.

so this thurs i'm gonna have to skip the race in favor of doing the big ride a few days later. i don't think i have the fitness (yet) to do both, unfortunately.

--


I don't race, but I enjoy hard, longish weekend rides. Getting one's butt kicked over a 70-100 mile distance is a big help in building speed-over-distance.

i hear what you're saying about the "butt kicking" - i think that's what i like about doing crits. (i can't stand much more butt kicking than 25 minutes worth at this point)

for some reason i don't enjoy longer (say 50+ mi) group rides, i like doing that kind of training solo. but going solo you can only push yourself so hard..


Recommend Cascade GB rides. Several people ride to the ride so come on over to the east if that's what you do. Some SIR darksiders there. Might even help your crit performance. Late in the season now, though. Most rides are away

what's the "GB"? i mean i've heard of cascade but not the GB thingy.

i can't wait for my first RR, but they don't happen as often as the crits do it seems. the local crit happens weekly and is 10 km from my house, so it works out.

so you don't think FTP comes into play as much during a 30-min crit? obviously not as much to win the thing, i guess i'm thinking of just hanging in the pack, which is all i've done so far in my race career. (a whole two races)

yeah i do the same thing, since my shorter rides are usually on the weekdays. for core work, i've been playing the wii (fit) game now and then, which includes some yoga and other exercises.

I don't think FTP is as important in crits as it is in road races, it certainly comes to play but not to the extent that it does in a RR. You need to think about the effect of normalized power during your race. Each anaerobic effort and recovery contributes to the normalized power over the race. If that normalized power becomes too high relative to your FTP, you're dropped. By raising FTP you can see an increase in the amount of anaerobic efforts you can sustain over a race, even though you're not doing any work directly at threshold. This is my problem, I have good anaerobic power to keep up on almost any hill but my FTP limits me after about 45 minutes to an hour.

From the crits I've done, I notice I can sit in an recover from making attacks. Drafting becomes an easy way to recover, but when there are hills the pace forces you to work hard and make those anaerobic efforts.

You may want to just spend time raising your CTL which is a numerical reflection of your base. You mentioned having a deep base last season, but it doesn't carry over months of reduced riding like you might think. A higher CTL means the effect of a 200k, 400k, or race or whatever is less so you recover faster. Focus on the few road races you can do and then see what is really limiting you.

I also think a high CTL is crucial to doing long brevets in faster times, as well as a high FTP.

It seems to me that since the racing is competitive, and the brevet riding is not, you'd want to train for the racing.This is the only assumption that makes any sense - and even though you answered my comments - I still don't understand your concerns. Your use of terminology muddles my ability to see what you are getting at.

But, the statement above, seems to sum up the situation to a satisfactory conclusion. Simply address all your riding to specific race goals and always ride your "brevets, etc.." at levels that promote recovery and do not interfere with additional intensity exercise.

In theory, your attempts at training for "racing" will lift your "brevet performance" even though you don't exercise this heightened capacity while you are actually on long rides.....

If you expect to ride long and hard and still race - you're just goofy..... oh - I mean "misguided."

I don't think FTP is as important in crits as it is in road races, it certainly comes to play but not to the extent that it does in a RR. You need to think about the effect of normalized power during your race. Each anaerobic effort and recovery contributes to the normalized power over the race. If that normalized power becomes too high relative to your FTP, you're dropped. By raising FTP you can see an increase in the amount of anaerobic efforts you can sustain over a race, even though you're not doing any work directly at threshold. This is my problem, I have good anaerobic power to keep up on almost any hill but my FTP limits me after about 45 minutes to an hour.

that makes sense, i never really thought of NP that way. so should i be calculating two FTPs then, one based off AP, one off NP?


From the crits I've done, I notice I can sit in an recover from making attacks. Drafting becomes an easy way to recover, but when there are hills the pace forces you to work hard and make those anaerobic efforts.

this perfectly describes my crit experience so far. it's a teardrop shaped course, with a 50-foot hill each lap. i almost got spit out the back and had to fight to catch back on, having to pedal downhill when most others were resting. then right after the downhill, an uphill. ouch. somehow i pulled through.


You may want to just spend time raising your CTL which is a numerical reflection of your base. You mentioned having a deep base last season, but it doesn't carry over months of reduced riding like you might think. A higher CTL means the effect of a 200k, 400k, or race or whatever is less so you recover faster. Focus on the few road races you can do and then see what is really limiting you.

I also think a high CTL is crucial to doing long brevets in faster times, as well as a high FTP.

true that last year's base doesn't carry over per se, although i didn't take much of a break over the winter (was going for the r-12, still did long rides). i got the PT in january, so i don't have any data for last year. anyway my CTL* is at about 66 right now, it's been level for a few weeks since the fleche.

one quirk with the CTL graph is that at first it was easy to raise that, but as time goes on, and it goes up, it seems to go down faster. this is on purpose i'm sure, as they're trying to emulate the "loss" of fitness, which i would assume is accelerated at higher levels. err, that's my guess anyway.

*: the LD forum has now officially entered the world of power data. CTL is "Chronic Training Load", a term used in the WKO+ power-analysis software. you can read more about all that fun stuff here (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-the-performance-management-chart.aspx).


This is the only assumption that makes any sense - and even though you answered my comments - I still don't understand your concerns. Your use of terminology muddles my ability to see what you are getting at.

well my own confusion about training (i'm somewhat new to structured training) probably doesn't help.

if you get nothing else from this thread, i suppose the basic point is "hey everyone i started racing!"

i'm excited and want to tell the world, i guess. =]

You don't need two FTP's, it's just that sometimes the NP algorithm gets 'tricked' and over-calculates, but they're still very related.

I was stuck in the mid 60's for a while too, you just need to increase weekly TSS. I'm guessing you're doing 8-10 hours a week? Either more hours or more time at Tempo/Threshold will do it.

You don't need two FTP's, it's just that sometimes the NP algorithm gets 'tricked' and over-calculates, but they're still very related.

Yeah it's confusing b/c WKO's "e-wang" chart pegs me at 3.55 w/kg FTP, but by NP it would be more like 3.9..


I was stuck in the mid 60's for a while too, you just need to increase weekly TSS. I'm guessing you're doing 8-10 hours a week? Either more hours or more time at Tempo/Threshold will do it.

You're spot on, about 8-10 per week, except for brevet weeks which put it closer to 20. I tend to take it really easy on the weeks before an event (e.g 1-2 hours of commuting, no real hard work), which explains why CTL has been plateaued since brevet season started.

Thanks for the info!

I am primarily a bike racer and have been for years. There were a few rides that I always wanted to do, but conflicted with races. Specifically the Devil Mountain Double and the Terrible Two, both in the SF Bay area. Finally I decided that I would skip whatever bike races that conflicted and did the rides. I trained like a bike racer. i.e., no real emphasis on long rides and only a couple of 100 mile rides leading in. My build up consisted of road races, criteriums and time trials. Probably about 15 hours per week average.

Both rides went well. They are both pretty gnarly as I'm sure you know. I "won" the DMD and was third in the Terrible Two in '06 and "won" the DMD again this year. Once you've got the base for riding I believe that it is just a matter of making sure you ride smart and eat and drink for these rides. If you are fit, riding 200 miles should not be a herculean feat.

Having good road racing fitness was a big plus in these rides. Even when others were going hard I wasn't that close to my limit. Imagine a ultra marathoner trying to put in a surge to drop a fast 1500m runner.

Having said that, my method probably has it's limits. A 400km brevet would be okay, but 600k??? I'm not sure. 1000k? Forget about it.

Kevin Metcalfe

I race road and do long distance cycling too like the OP and in m experience, doing a brevet and a crit next to each other comes down to which if first. A brevet will take too much out of me to have the short distance power for the crit the next day, but crits don't take too much out of me so I have plenty in the bank for the long distance ride.
Everyone is different though.

I don't really see the conflict, except for the obvious calender problems. And being sore after a 600k. If you are in good shape for racing, I think you will do fine on brevets. In other words, I would train for racing and let the LD stuff take care of itself. Just as an example, one year the state championship road race was 15 miles from my sister's house, which was 200+ miles from where I lived. I rode to my sister's, and I was a little wiped out emotionally, but not physically. I left 2 days for recovery between the ride and the race. I did fine physically in the race, although I had no idea what I was doing and didn't place. :)

I was going to do the local time trial series this year, but they have all lined up 2 days before a brevet, so I'll wait until June because I'm going to skip the 1000k. It takes a big time commitment to race in this area, so I haven't gotten back into it like I thought I would. I figure I'm so out of shape for that kind of riding that doing rando events is going to get me back to a base where I can even think about racing. My climbing still stinks, I figure if I got in a race with a flat course I would at least be pack fodder at this point, but if there was a hill I'd be off the back the first lap.